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Hey guys, lately I've been reading more fanfics, and I've realized there's a lot of good ones.
But I've also seem a common problem: Terrible, terrible dialogue.
I hope I don't insult anyone by saying this, but I sometimes feel like fanfiction authors have never heard a conversation in their lives. I constantly see fanfics where the characters speak or say things that either don't make sense in context, run counter to any rational thought, seem like they're forcing a particular subject matter (usually for exposition), sound flat, or unintentionally cause the characters to come off as idiots or pricks.
This could be improved, and I want to use this topic to demonstrate how.
I want to first start by using the classic fanfic "Bittersweet." I want to show the problem area, explain why its a problem, and show how I think it could be improved. After that, I'll demonstrate using a more recent fanfic.
To be continued, as there seems to be a wordcount limit on opening posts.
EDIT - For the sake of being useful to readers, I'll put the most useful and necessary lessons here in the OP.
Advice 1 - (Suggested by NorsePony) "Read your dialogue out loud, act out your conversations." If they don't sound natural coming out of your mouth, then they probably won't sound natural coming from your characters, either.
Advice 2 - "Shorter is (Usually) Better." You can usually say more with one short, well-written statement than you can with a clumsy paragraph.
Advice 3 - "Be Aware of How It Reads." If you want the readers to feel a certain way about a character, then you got to make sure they're coming off that way. If you tell the reader someone is smart but then they talk like an idiot, or if you tell them someone is kind and sincere but then they come off like a prick, it'll leave a bad impression. Likewise, if they're supposed to come off as stupid or prickish, be sure to drop a subtle clue or two.
750720
My biggest problem is when new authors to the site don't make a new paragraph when they change whomever is speaking. A bunch of fics recently have run into this problem and it gets confusing at times determining who said what.
750720 Exactly. Well said. You have to know when to make dialogue simple, short and to the point, and when to make it complex and flowery and detailed. Not to mention how a lot of writers seem to write dialogue from different characters flatly. It's as if the same emotionless character is speaking OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Personalize how your characters speak, and what they say.
The best advice I ever learned on dialogue is this: read your dialogue out loud. If it doesn't sound believable coming out of your mouth, then it doesn't sound believable coming out of your character's mouth, either.
750720 Dialogue can be extremely hard to nail down. It seems like most bad dialogue falls at either end of the spectrum. It's either flat and uninteresting, as 750749 pointed out, or so painfully in character that it reads as a parody. The former is normally seen with OCs, and comes from a lack of character development. badass pegasus is squaring off against badass unicorn, and they're throwing one liners at each other as though they were weapons. Or romantic interest OC number five trillion is putting the moves on Rainbow Dash, and they're communicating more through blushing than actual proper dialogue.
Conversely, there's the dialogue that takes character traits way too far, and I see it most often with canon characters.
...Oi.
750749
That boggles my mind, it's hard to imagine lessons that were drilled into my head so that I can never ever forget them are so easily ignored or were never taught to other people.
Don't they teach that in school anymore?
The first fanfic I want to bring up is the classic "Bittersweet." You know the one--the story where Pinkie Pie committed suicide, and the pain her friends went through because of her loss... and then it becomes some silly thing about diamond dogs. But before that, it was quite a good story.
But one of its faults was dialogue--even the "good parts" often sounded kind of stilted, and I had several moments of "I can't imagine those words coming from these ponies' mouths" sensations when I was reading. However, there was one moment in particular that stood out for me.
It was in Part Four. Twilight Sparkle has come to Sweet Apple Acres to tell Applejack she couldn't find Rainbow Dash. She finds Applejack throwing herself at her work with even more gusto than usual. Applejack claims she's working harder to fill an order.
I will quote:
Now, if you're anything like me, you probably wanted to slap Twilight Sparkle at this point. It's entirely clear what's going on--Applejack is taking to work in order to cover up her depression. Even though Twilight seems to realize this, she doesn't respond with any sort of sensitivity and instead treats the conversation more as an interrogation. Indeed, she even calls Applejack a "liar" and is surprised when this upsets the farm gal.
Was the author trying to make Twilight seem like an insensitive prick? Keep in mind this is the fourth chapter. For most of the story Twilight has been as upset about Pinkie's suicide as everypony else, and understands what an issue it is. Therefore, it's doubly jarring that, out of nowhere, she's such a prick to Applejack.
This is a classic example of an "unintentional negative portrayal"--the author probably thought Twilight Sparkle sounded reasonable, and wasn't aware that Twi actually sounds kind of like a jerk. Context clues heavily imply that we're supposed to sympathize with Twilight and feel like Applejack is wrong for snapping at her, furthering my suspicion.
Now, here's how I would've written this scene:
Yeah... I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff. But there's other reasons this would've been better.
For one thing, it's a lot shorter. Keep in mind always that with dialogue or any sort of talking sequences, Shorter (Usually) Means Better.
Secondly, Twilight doesn't come off as a prick in this version. She's not just uselessly ticking Applejack off for apparently no reason--she understands Applejack, she wants to talk about it and clearly wants to help her somehow. In doing so, it helps her deal with her own pain, and shows how close these two really are.
Now, admittedly, I never finished reading Bittersweet--I lost interest once the story became about the Diamond Dogs--so I don't know if there was some meta-reason Twi and Applejack needed to have a fight. Even if there was though, there were better ways to do it that don't come off as just handing Twi the Idiot Ball and letting her run with it.
So Class, What Have We Learned?
The Major Lesson here is "Be Aware of How It Reads" Always read your own dialogue exchanges--preferably hours after writing them so you'll have cooled down and can judge them objectively--and make sure they come off how you want them to. If the character we're supposed to sympathize with instead sounds like a jerk or an idiot, the readers will notice and it will hurt the story for them--and for you, when you come back to it a year later.
A minor Secondary Lesson is "If A Character is SUPPOSED To Be Negative, Make Sure There's Clues and It's Consistent." A lot of times with fanfics its hard to tell if you're supposed to like or hate somepony, because authors will have a character enjoying cookies or entertaining foals or walking grandmothers across the street and then have them mass-slaughtering and dropping F-bombs in the next chapter. There's a difference between creating a nuanced character, and being schizophrenic.
And a minor Third Lesson is, "Shorter is (Usually) Better." It's better to have characters speak in short sentences that imply more than they directly say, than to have them keep talking and talking. The more any character speaks, the more words come out of their mouths, the more chance they have of leaving a bad impression on the readers. If a long speech is necessary, go for it, but always be looking for ways you can shorten it. Keep in mind also that sometimes, characters can communicate with a glance or a subtle gesture and might not have to open their mouths at all.
That's all for today! Class Dismissed!
Be back (whenever I post again) for the next lesson!
750767
Dang I had the perfect story offender of everything that had been mentioned today but the author removed it from the site
750769
I would hope so. I remember being drilled heavily in grammar and structure.
One thing I've learned about dialogue other than reading it out loud is to use as little adverbs as possible. They can be pretty painful to read when there's too many. Bittersweet (from the above example) sounds like it could have been a really good story if the dialogue wasn't terrible.
750774
I would agree with your first two points!
Been doing a bit of pre-reading for some beginning writers lately, and one of the most common problems I've had to point out is indeed the tendency to make a character sound like a total jerk. I'd wager the problem is mostly due to younger writers trying to sound mature, and equating maturity with stark rationality. A lot of the problem dialogue is all very logical and metered. But nobody talks or interacts like that. So it comes off as rude. People of any age or maturity speak casually with their friends.
Haven't really run into the second issue much, but I tend to avoid a lot of OC-heavy, or OC-focused fics, where I imagine the problem is worst. I believe it though, because it links to a problem I have seen. The solution to both a bit of discipline. You need to learn to ask 'Why?' constantly. Why is the character acting like that? Why did they make that choice over some other? Why do they feel the way they do? The core problem isn't really inconsistent characterization, that's just a symptom. The core issue is that of causality. Without sufficient thought about why something happens, it'll usually come off as just disconnected, unsatisfying randomness. People have to question their own work as much as a reader would.
Bold for emphasis, go!
This... is not one I really agree with, however. Brevity has its place, and admittedly, a lot of time it's a pretty good thing to keep in mind. Bloated, rambling paragraphs can usually be boiled down to what's important to set the mood, or convey information. Scenes with fast action should always be kept short. But... in dialogue?
Short, rapid-fire sentences are just another path to sounding wooden and artificial. Having peeked at sampling of your work, NoGiantRobots, I'd say you exercise this rule a little too much yourself, and err far too much on minimalism. Sure, one can totally get away with having characters say practically nothing. But you had better be ready to provide some pretty excellent description to provide those weighty-with-meaning pauses and the cues from body language to show emotion, if you go that way. Without that, it's just... flat.
It's not to say that characters should always blather on. The real trick is the comfy middleground, where the sentences aren't unusually short and sharp, and you have some descriptive writing in there to provide the proper body language to back up what's said.
Avoiding dialogue just because you might screw it up is just silly.
Less is More. One of the best chapters I think I wrote ('Tutor', Ch. 6) has exactly 5 words of spoken dialogue, even though it has extensive internal monologue (with arguement) and a comedic 'Fade'. The *entire* chapter was a setup for the last line, which was simply "Hi."
750720
I tend to agree with bad dialogue being a major problem, and agree with the advice to date. I can often be fairly vocal on the subject now and then. I laugh, though, because dialogue really is one of the hardest things to get right. Don't get me wrong: I don't give bad dialogue a by, but I do understand the difficulty, and it's not just in fanfictions either. One of the most famous scenes in Science Fiction, Blade Runner's 'tears in rain,' was adlibed because Hauer thought the script sounded like 'opera-speak,' I think he called it.
Typically I try to imagine the characters saying dialogue in their own voices, and if it's a background character or OC I try to imagine a voice for them so that I can keep it consistent. Actually watching the show - just sitting down and rewatching an episode, especially with the characters you're currently writing about - can be a big help, since it refreshes your memory of what they're like.
750774
I will debate you on that particular example. I'm not sure when that story is taking place, but if it was around Season One (when Twilight's still fairly new in Ponyville) I could see her acting as she did in that story. She wasn't always good at reading other ponies' feelings, and her logical mind might be poking holes in Applejack's excuses and not immediately recognize all the extra work as a coping mechanism. Still, the story has to show that somehow for it to work. Twilight does start to get worried towards the end, so it's not like she's completely insensitive.
I guess the line "Wait a minute, Big Mac said it was a slow day today!" just sounds odd. I guess it almost seems accusatory. Maybe something more like "Didn't Big Mac say it was a slow day today? I'm surprised to see you out working."
My biggest problem with that piece, though, would be that "the orange earth pony" is speaking in such a thick accent that I can't read her dialogue with a natural flow.
750981
Quoted for emphasis. A problem I've seen with some fanfics is what I call "the overly tentative voice" where every character has a healthy smattering of Fluttershy when they talk. I can understand that some characters are very considerate and will backtrack to make sure that they aren't offending with what they're saying, but when every dialogue has every character doing it... Ugh! Rainbow Dash talks first and thinks later, Applejack doesn't do or tolerate lengthy exposition, Princess Celestia, while polite, is also eloquently succint, etc. It's especially frustrating when the characters are well-aquainted enough to be much more casual than they're behaving!
This sort of goes with 'if it doesn't sound natural', but it probably deserves its own special attention grabbing section: If you have a piece of dialog solely for expositional purposes, either to communicate something to the reader or something to the character, its probably bad dialog. Dialog has to be motivated by the story. Characters offering up implausible information out of nowhere is going to sound weird.
Corollary: Be aware of what your characters know and how they know it.
Corollary: Most people have (some) intuitive basic logic skills and won't jump to a crazy conclusion when there are more plausible ones available. Unless you're a nutcase, the explanation 'aliens did it' is so implausible that virtually no one is going to jump to it without strong evidence, or at least what they consider strong evidence. Similarly, 99.9% of the population is not going to surmise you're a time traveller for any reason. They probably won't even believe you if you tell them that.
I have a story I'm thinking of that exemplifies some of these, but the author is remarkably thin-skinned when it comes to even constructive criticism, so I'll refrain.
As I have said in another place on this site, somewhat stereo-typed dialogue can have a place in fanfiction for me. Having to end every statement in a four-way conversation with "said <Pony Name>" gets a little old (or so I hear), and the reader doesn't have the visual cues that the show itself gives. In addition since it comes at the END of the statement, it can be a bit confusing, especially when you have perfectly good reason to have a hundred plus word quote (Pinkie and Twilight come to mind, in that order, as ponies who would do this on occasion). The ponies (especially the Mane Six) have distinct ways of talking in the show, and you only need to take it a bit further than that to make them distinctive. Also, I think actions can provide an excuse to specify the speaker.
"I see." said Twilight. <-Gets old after a while.
"Ah! Now I comprehend!" <- Identifying speaker not necessary due to mild stereotyping.
"I see." said Twilight, opening a drawer across the room and lifting several pencils out of it before finding a quill to make a note of the fact. <- Not so boring since you will need to specify who is doing the action anyway.
That said, the dialogue should be as consistent as it is in the show. Which isn't to say completely consistent. Characters will speak in different ways based on the situation and their mood.
All that having been said, I have a question I am going to TRY to put into words:
In one of my stories, I have a lot of "repetitive" conversations. By which I mean, I have Celestia explain something to Twilight, then in a later scene, Twilight explains it to Rarity, and then in still another scene, Rarity explains it to Mayor Mare. Now one concept would be to gloss over the last two scenes by moving them "off camera". But, at the same time, it isn't the information being conveyed that is so critical to convey to the reader, as how each character approaches the subject. Part of this is that this concept is HARD for a lot of the characters. It is completely counter-intuitive to their way of thinking. So a brief conversation would seem to me to undercut that. And, as I said, off-screening it would cut out characterization that justifies the characters' later actions.
Any thoughts?
751285
I disagree. '(Pony name) said' should be invisible when reading. It's almost impossible to overuse, and far preferable to the Tom Swifty school of dialog attribution.
That said, if you have an exchange primarily between two characters, you can frequently skip attribution simply because an end-quotes mark means the one is done talking, and so the next line of dialog is the other. (This works even if more than two ponies are present, so long as you've established two of them are having a back-and-forth).
Edit: The other way to 'liven up' dialog is to use descriptors of what they're doing to imply who said something without outright stating it. Example:
"Oh, I'm not sure that it's safe." Fluttershy cowered behind her forehooves.
Since they're part of the same paragraph, its obvious that Fluttershy is meant to be speaking. (If it was meant to be someone else speaking, since the following sentence refers to only the one pony, it would instead start a new paragraph).
People have mentioned over-characterization and under-characterization in dialogue, but I don't think anyone's gone into lazy dialogue yet.
Has anyone ever seen a fanfic where a character's speech is peppered with their catchphrase(s), or even with lines lifted from their work of origin? For instance, making Rarity call everyone 'darling' or repeated use of Rainbow Dash's '20% cooler' (something she's said exactly once on the show, in a very specific context)? I know I have, and it's a lazy way to establish that yes, this is totally the same character from that show I watch.
Just as an example, here's a line from a Doctor Whooves fic I once read, in which a former companion of the Doctor's is referring to the current one:
And here's a line from the Eleventh Doctor on the actual show:
I'd say that lazy dialogue like this straddles the line between over- and under-characterization. On the one hand, it's a very obvious way to say 'this is Pinkie Pie/Applejack/whoever' (hence the over). However, too often it takes the place of making dialogue match up with a character's personality - their likes, dislikes, motivations, etc. Instead, it sounds like someone doing a bad impersonation of the character.
751285 For a situation like that I'd probably write something like 'character A explained the stuff to Character B', then have character B's reaction to it, at least if it'll be a long detail bit of already covered exposition. If it's something short you can probably go either way.
751580
Odd. I read that line as a reference to Dr. Who fans. If they got it, great. If not, it still fit.
751479
I will grant you that two character conversations don't need much attribution. Perhaps not even when their are more characters present, although then you have to balance between the reader forgetting that the third (and fourth, and etc) characters are there and them being uncertain if the characters you have as silent are actually joining in at one point or another.
The real problem comes in when you have a story that has even significant minority of 3+way conversations. Then I think that the SLIGHT exaggeration of the speech patterns helps. You obviously disagree since you said that "said _______" never gets old. In any case, I think that anyone who does exaggerate would be wise to be consistent with that, rather than limiting it to the scenes in question.
FWIW I've actually been complimented on giving each speaker a more distinctive voice just as a general thing (not in regards to making it clearer who is talking I don't THINK). This was one of Brian Jacques things in Redwall too.
People should do whatever they think best. As for myself, I will let my subconscious mull it over. It is certainly too late to change for my current story.
Wait, so dialogue is hard? I get complimented on my dialogue, but I have no idea why.
Seriously, I have like zero people skills in real life.
750981 I do sometimes feel my prose is too short, but I never felt that way about my dialogue. Do you have an example of it?
To be honest when I wrote that, I wasn't thinking strictly about fanfiction. I had recently been trying to read a couple of fantasy novels (Terry Brooks and Robert Jordan, particularly) and its hard for me to stay interested in those because everything is so long-winded. They can't just say "a cat jumped out at me," they have to say "suddenly a furious cloud of blackness leaped from on high and gracefully stretched its paws out, catching my tunic with its unsheathed claws. I smelt the feline's breath for a moment as it climbed over my shoulders and jumped off the other side."
I was going to do another class, analyzing a fanfic, but I need time to think about it.
751580
I'm not entirely sure if I agree with your definition of lazy.
Don't get me wrong, cribbing one-off phrases is somewhat lame and jarring, you're totally right about that, but using words that the character themselves use a lot? That should be encouraged. Dash does, indeed, use 'cool' and 'awesome' quite a bit. I'm relatively sure Rarity uses 'Dear' and 'Darling' a fair amount too. You can't even characterize Pinkie properly without her cutesy Pinkieisms.
754861
Blarg, a public forum post isn't at all the place for this sort of thing, but since you asked, I'll open a completely random chapter of Surprise Days and grab a short snippet. Here's a bit from the end of 'Scene 6'.
Aside from that 'dark suspicion' line, there's a dearth of descriptive prose at all beyond a laugh. So absolutely all of the burden of emotion is on the back and forth of the dialogue. Yet, it doesn't really convey the disgust or shock about the fact that a children's book involved a unicorn being vivisected, not even a 'You're kidding me?!' or something. There really isn't any slyness in the jokes. They might be sitting around in stereotypical English fashion, stone-faced and sipping tea, or they could be making coy expressions and animatedly joking around. There's no clue.
756095
I'd like to clarify the point I was making - first by saying that I do agree with your main point. If a character has a word they use a lot in canon, they should obviously use it a lot in the fanfic. You wouldn't have Rainbow Dash in a fanfic without ever using the words 'cool' or 'awesome'. But there's still such a thing as overuse, and it's the kind of thing that could turn canon Rainbow Dash into, say, Rainbow Dash from Friendship is Witchcraft. That's the kind of writing I'm referring to, and it is a very unrainbow thing to do.
Moreover, some of the things we call 'catchphrases' for a character aren't used THAT much. Taking Doctor Who as an example, let's examine the Tenth Doctor's famous catchphrase: "Allons-y!" According to Wikiquote, he's used it in a grand total of nine episodes (ten, if you count his appearance on the Sarah Jane Adventures). This is the sort of thing that is very easy to overdo.
756166
Sounds fair to me.
Clearly treating characters only as their stereotypical traits is a bad idea. That just ends up as Flanderization. Admittedly, it's a pitfall that you see with more than just dialogue.
Pinkie's fourth wall breaking is probably the worst example. She did it, what, once, in the second episode? And then again in Magic Duel. And a third time, subtly, in Too Many Pinkie Pies ('The walls are closing in' during a close-up). There might be one or two more I can't recall off the top of my head. But this is out of sixty five episodes.
Yet an absolutely huge number of fics have her making repeated, often direct references to things in real life. Or talking to the reader. Or making pop culture jokes. It can get rather grating.
756095 See, to me it would've just distracted from the point of the conversation, and become a classic example of ruining a joke by dragging it out too long. I could've described their demeanor and reaction, but that wasn't the point, and the punchline wouldn't have worked if I did.
I do admit I need to work on Surprise and Raydence's characterization. They're both supposed to come off as being kind of jaded and hard to really get a rise out of (so a violent children's book isn't something they'd have much of a reaction to), but I've noticed this doesn't really come off well in writing. One reason I wish I could draw well so I'd do it as a comic instead.
756334 Oh man, the "Pinkie breaks the fourth wall" thing annoys me SO MUCH as well. I remember once seeing someone's proposal for an MLP RPG in which Pinkie explained the rules and game mechanics.... I just lost interest right then and there. (My own proposal for an RPG had them finding a magical book that did that)
In general I don't like it when Pinkie acts overly cartoony, even when she does it in the show. Some of the smaller gags are tolerable, but the episode where she had stuff stashed all over Ponyville "in case of Emergency" just made me want to hurt someone.
750767
Crap. *deletes*
... OH NOW THAT'S JUST NOT FAIR. *deletes*
All kidding aside, good advice, NGR1983.
I was going to do another class, but I realized the fanfic I had lined up didn't do anything that couldn't be seen as a more general issue, and I didn't want to discourage any budding authors.
So, here's a few more thoughts on this issue.
Okay first, a personal thing:
I never understood why
is more popular than
. See, the way I figure it, if you were watching the cartoon, you would SEE who is talking. The latter simulates this very well. With the former, I often imagine the words coming out of the wrong pony, and it just derps me up. (Then again, I would rather be drawing comics anyway. Too bad no art skills and a huge lack of patience).
Now, here's a more general issue I've noticed: punctuation. USE IT.
POP QUIZ: Where should a comma be placed in this sentence?
Now, some people say they hate it when you put character quirks in dialogue. Personally, I don't see how you can write them if you DON'T do that, but try not to go overboard with it. Not every word out of Applejack's mouth needs to be accented up, but she probably should say "Ah" or "Ah'm" instead of "I" or "I'm." But this is a matter of personal preference. And Pinkie's word-jumbling is hard to get right in fanfiction (to be honest, when I do it I think readers will just skip that line).
762234 Oh, I know these ones a bit.
Okay, so for the "Something," they said, as opposed to the they said, "something." That is generally used when you want to bring attention to a particular detail.
For example, if you want to emphasize the point that Twilight is tired, you'd go with this:
Now, if you want to emphasize the contents of the actual spoken details, say, when Rarity comments on a project she's working on that will become relevant to the plot, you'll want to go with putting the dialogue first.
Generally, when dialogue is occurring, it's what is being said that is driving the plot forward, as opposed to how it is being said, although how it is being said can have relevance on later events.
Now, the pop quiz: "Are you okay, sugarcube?"
The comma lets the reader know that the dialogue is being directed at a specific character, namely, whoever Applejack has deemed worthy of the coveted title of "sugarcube".
Oh... that reminds me of another thread I wanted to check out. Well, I'm off!