Might as well start this now. I believe in many things, and hold them sacred. One of those things is the Bible and am wondering what you guys think is so awesome about it?

What I love about it is that it holds the record of Christs bloodline/genealogy. From Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Juda; down to David and onward to Mary. Everything before hand symbolizes in some way the great work the savior has done. Whether you believe or not, this is there. That is why the Bible is so Important to me, how about you.

3069441 agreed

3069441
I also noticed how the names of all those on the bloodline translate the words in Hebrew, that in order, make a hint of the Gospel:

Hebrew English
Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow;
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest

3069441 The bible is recorded history. It's poetry, it's the thoughts of many people converging around many events that marked the lives of millions, but above all, it's God's word.

3069441 Yes, true friend. I agree.

3069441
Meh

3069441
How is circle-jerking over why we love the Bible so much digging deeper?

3069513
In order to go deep, you have to scratch the surface first. I have not even gone anywhere with it yet.

3069566
I suppose.

3069513
Well, in all honesty, the name-in-order translation that I provided is part of delving deeper.

"Man is appointed mortal sorrow; the Blessed God shall come down teaching: His death shall bring the despairing comfort."

3070218
I wasn't referring to you specifically.

3070344
Ah, I see.

3069441 3069477 3069484 3069496 I love it because it holds the most basic tenets of Christianity: Love the Lord thy God, and love thy neighbor as thyself. On these hang all the commandments. It also holds many, er, fascinating prophesies about our day. I guess that's one word for it. A lot of what it holds is very heavy, but it's very important stuff--particularly the book of Isaiah. It's a great book, even though it has some odd stuff.

3069441
I honestly think it's a very poor work of fiction; on par with some of the more terrible fanfics here on this site.

I know that very few of you Christians are going to watch it, but this is one of my favorite shows on the internet:

The Bible Reloaded

Two atheists read the bible and point out every inconsistency and mock every ignorant statement. What's not to love?

3070914
Yay! Finally a dissenting point of view!
But still, there's a lot of 3069513 circle jerking going on here.

I see my talents are needed.

The Bible says you must stone gays to death. If you don't, you're committing a sin.
It lauds mass murderers -- as long as they're doing it for the 'right' side.
The Bible treats Unicorns as factual animals.
It contains numerous contradictions, beginning with the creation story.*

It's alternatively horrific, silly, and just plain wrong.

*Genisis 1 and Genisis 2 contain two different accounts of creation. While they're similar in many respects, they differ and disagree on some points, most noticeably when it comes to what order god created things in.

3071502
Indeed. It takes a special breed of fundamentalist to be able to read the bible in this day and age and remain a Christian.

3071502 Could you please give me references for these statements:

The Bible says you must stone gays to death. If you don't, you're committing a sin.
It lauds mass murderers -- as long as they're doing it for the 'right' side.
The Bible treats Unicorns as factual animals.

I am honestly curious.

3071523 That's what I believe The Book of Mormon is for. One can interpret the Bible any number of ways, but The Book of Mormon provides clarification. I'm glad I have it, because the Bible is a somewhat "tortured" book at times.

3077619
The Book of Mormon tries to clarify the Bible, and succeeds in some cases.

However, most of the time, the BoM is just replacing one bout of circular logic with another.

3077629 What makes you say that?

3077641
Well, just as one example, the reason God has a gender.

In the classical Abrahamic texts, it's never explained. It seems like a stupid thing. Why would a being like Yahweh need a gender? He doesn't need to procreate, does he?

In the BoM, it's explained that Yahweh was once a human, just like us. He had a wife, children, and a god of his own.

Here's the problem, though: who created Yahweh's God? Yahweh's God's God, right? Well, who created that God? That God's God. This goes on infinitely.

Problem is, there's no such thing as infinity. Even when dealing with innumerable quantities, there's always a finality. The laws of physics don't allow for infinity.

Therefore, circular logic is broken.

Therefore, the Book of Mormon is just as fictitious as the Bible is.

3077301

Leviticus 20:13, NCV
If a man has sexual relations with another man as a man does with a woman, these two men have done a hateful sin. They must be put to death. They have brought it on themselves.

Isaiah 34:7, KJV
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

As for the murderer thing, well... Yahweh himself is a mass murderer. You see how the book lauds him.

3077686 I believe that basing a religious argument on physics is, well, not the best, because we still do not know how physics work. We have bits and pieces, yes, that allow us to do many things, but there are still unexplained questions that may take a very long time to answer.

But yes, our belief is that is one eternal round. I have thought long and hard about this, and one day I asked my bishop, "If our Heavenly Father is mentioned as all-knowing, then did he (and us, by extension) not learn or progress after death? Or does it just mean that he knows everything about what he created, not necessarily everything there is to know?". His reply was that God's knowledge IS; that his perception of time and knowledge is not like ours, and we cannot understand what it is like. It's difficult to say this, but what I'm trying to say is that we ARE HERE. We came from something. Our world is miraculous and we understand maybe a fraction of it. Can everything just end? And I cannot base my beliefs on Science, because it changes every day. If there is one thing I know, it is that I have a Heavenly Father who loves me. I testify that that is true.

3077730
So, he basically just waved his fingers and said, "Oogaly boogaly! God moves in mysterious ways!" You honestly bought that?

Science is a superior way of viewing the universe because it changes every day. Nobody is trying to assert that they know anything, because you can't know anything. Everything you learn comes from your senses. Your senses are only known to you. You can't know anything besides what your senses tell you. The rest of reality could just be figments of your imagination, and you would never know it.

Scientists are just trying to learn more about reality. They do this by finding evidence and forming theories around that. Religion does the opposite. It starts with a theory, and then looks for evidence to support that theory; discarding any evidence that contradicts it.

Religion is inherently dishonest.

3077716 Back in ye olden days it was extremely important for Hebrew communities to be completely congruous in order to maintain their identity. People may have been put to death because they had to be strict in all things. They had to be tight-knit and separate from other cultures to preserve the Word of God and themselves, because when they started mingling with other cultures it inevitably led to absorption and/or war and slavery. Examples include the Hebrews in Moses' time and Jerusalem during the reign of King Zedekiah at around 600 BC.
When it talks about God destroying the wicked, it is always saying that the wicked die from natural consequences. Real science shows that those who do "evil" tend to have bad ends. I wish I remember what issue of Scientific American that was from. It was really fascinating.
By the way, Unicorn is a mistranslation (and a few other things) of the Hebrew Re'em, or wild ox. Just one of those things about a several-thousand-year-old book.

Thank you for the discussion. It is nearly two O'Clock and my brain is shutting down. I'll reply to your latest comment tomorrow. Er, later today for me, that is.

3077798
I know what you mean. Nearly two o'clock over here too.

Anyway, for the first thing, "They were different times back then" is not an excuse for abhorrent behavior. Murdering people simply because they were born a specific way is one such abhorrent act.

For the second, that "mistranslation" tripe is just an excuse for people who refuse to give up their fairy tales.

And finally, Yeah, sure, God personally flooding the entire world was natural. God personally raining fire and brimstone down upon the city of Gomorrah was natural. God personally smiting every firstborn in Egypt was natural. God personally destroying the priests of Ba'al Zebul (aka Beelzebub, because the Jews distorted his name, to make him easier to mock.) was natural. And God personally interfering whenever the Israelites went into battle was most certainly natural.

And, I'm sorry, but Scientific American is not "real science".

3077301

Leviticus 20:13 (gays must be killed)
If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

1 Samuel 15:1-11 (God regrets Saul, because Saul doesn't mass murder thoroughly enough; gotta kill those animals. They're guilty too.)
Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.
7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.
10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.”

Isaiah 34:7 (unicorns, yay!) (more references: http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unicorn&qs_version=KJV)
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

That should about cover it.

3078040
Actually, 3077798 is quite right on the unicorn thing. It's a mistranslation of Re'em. Which is more or less thought by everyone and sundry to be an aurochs. The progenitor of modern cattle.

That being said, yes, the Old Testament god is a horrific mass-murderer who condones rape, slavery and the murder of children. I have no idea how people can manage the dissonance of holding the vengeful, vain, jealous God of the Old Testament to be the omnibenevolent loving one of the New.

Luckily for Christians, most never ever actually read most of the Old Testament, and are happy to pretend that it doesn't exist a vast majority of the time. Unless they need a convenient Bible verse to justify hating someone they revile.

3078235 Honestly, the Old Testament is often very weird. There are a few books that are most important to us, and all the books in the Old Testament have something important in them (except the Song of Solomon). I wasn't there then, and don't know everything that was going on so I can't judge what was happening. I just know what I know now.

3080418
Right.
Who gets to decide which of God's words are important and unimportant?

3078040 3078235 You have to understand that the Israelites were in very precarious circumstances. They had enemies on all sides. Look at it this way: Have you read or seen the movie Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card? In Ender's Game, Ender is bullied and mortally threatened on multiple occasions. He shows he is not to be messed with and completely eliminates his enemy, thus removing the threat and sending a message to anyone else: that he is not to be messed with.
In our day many of us can sit and say that the Israelites were horrible and that God is murderous. But we do not understand their circumstances. They were fighting for survival; much of Israel was lush land surrounded by desert and was coveted by many. And let us not forget where they came from: they were slaves in Egypt. They had a very hard existence before. So God provided a way for them to preserve themselves.

3080989 God revealed that the Song of Solomon does not have any doctrine. I suppose that it is nice poetry, though. Sort of.

3081005
Wise and powerful God couldn't figure out a better way to do it than with slaughter? And slavery?

3081124 Perhaps it was the best way for them. I don't really know.

3081163
I think we can safely say that nearly every fate is better than being murdered or enslaved for your whole life.

3081124 If I do believe that God is wise and powerful then how can I question his methods? If I doubt what he did then I might as well throw him out the window, because he is false.

3081187 I can think of a few things. To whom are you referring to?

3081192

how can I question his methods?

You already do, I wager.

Do you abhor slavery? Or beating one's children to death? Or killing gay people? Killing everyone of a different faith and burning their homes to the ground?

You've favored your own judgement over God's. And I'm glad you did.

3081216
I do abhor all those things. Which is why I'm glad that I live in these days. Of course, these things still happen all around us, and we must strive to combat them.

I do question his methods. It's how we learn. But the catch is that I do not allow these things--the way God is portrayed by history and other people--to get in the way of my faith. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is what I put my full trust in, and my Heavenly Father has always been there for me.
And how have I favored my judgement over God's? I'm simply trying to figure out why God may have done a certain thing for the sake of the discussion. I really don't care why. Okay, that's not true. But as I previously stated, it doesn't matter in the long run, and I'm sure I'll find out why God had the Amalekites destroyed after I die. You may scoff at that, but there it is.

3081315
Yeah. There's nothing I can say to argue or debate against that. So, kudos I guess?

Unfortunately, it's because of you taking the position that debate is useless. Because you'll believe what you want to believe in actual overt willful denial to any evidence to the contrary.

So, yeah, I respect that you're honest about your plans. But really, I can't ever respect someone who embraces ignorance with a big cozy hug, and revels in it.

As for how you've favored your judgement over Gods, you've done it by living a life in accord with your morality. And not his. Or at the very least you've cherry-picked what to believe, like most Christians do.

And I don't blame them. Our society has moved on. Our understanding of morality advances. And that's amazing! But... it makes it hard to defend the idea that the Bible is the source of all moral good. And makes hollow the claims of people that say they live by it.

Of course, I'm speaking broadly. Clearly you're taking the idea that the Bible is something written in a barbaric time, by a barbaric people. Which is true. I'm not sure why any particular person gets to decide which divinely inspired word is correct, and which isn't though.

In any case, no point arguing, given your stance.

3081315

And how have I favored my judgement over God's?

Have you ever known someone was gay and not killed him?
You took your own judgement over god's then.

it doesn't matter in the long run,

Whether your god is abhorrently evil or not does matter, I'd say.

and I'm sure I'll find out why God had the Amalekites destroyed after I die. You may scoff at that, but there it is.

*scoffs profusely*
Will he also tell you why their sheep had to die?
Why their children had to die?
I can already tell you what god's answer would be:
"I'm god and you're an idiot compared to me. You can't understand my reasons."

3081648 Which is why I am glad I believe God has restored his Priesthood and prophets to the earth to help guide us. And He has brought forth a book that helps to ascertain what is important in the Bible, being the Book of Mormon. That is what I believe. I am not cherry-picking anything. YOU are the one who is cherry-picking. You condemn my God based on scripture that you don't appear to believe in the first place. So you pick and choose the scripture you wish to use; the "sketchy" and violent parts, disregarding the rest. If this is all you've got against Judaism, then maybe you should find something else to attack.

Are you suggesting that God's morality is to kill and destroy? God doesn't have a morality. To say so is to try to elevate ourselves to his level, which is impossible. Someday perhaps, but for now we have a relatively narrow window of reality. I simply try to do what he says in our day.

3083403
Thankfully, we have prophets and apostles to guide us in these latter days so that we don't have to rely on out-dated anecdotes for what is appropriate to do. Times change vastly, and everything in an ancient (and oft mistranslated) book may not apply to us now.

God has never commanded me to kill anyone.

We also can take advantage of the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and receive answers to our questions personally, if we ask with faith and real intent.

Also, the fact that you are condemning my God based on material that you don't even believe makes your argument rather thin. Do only believe that this small portion is true?

3084038

YOU are the one who is cherry-picking.

Yeah. So...?

I'm picking out the parts that would seem to contradict. No matter how many other parts are totally cool, it doesn't make the obviously nonsensical parts anymore sensical.

I made no claim to believing in any of it, and especially not in all of it. If you want to believe all of it is true, then I'm asking you how you subsume the idea that some of it is clearly contradictory. To which your response is 'God can be evil because God is immoral (literally, the word means 'not confirming to the standards of morality'), and he's so much smarter than me that his evil is totally good! And he'll explain after I die so I don't have to think about it! La la la la la!'.

Which, hey, more power to you. But don't come to a debating group with no intention of debating.

Also, I don't think Judaism is true either. And Christianity, and Islam, and Mormonism (so far as I know) is built on it. And take essentially the same writings to be true, just with extras. If you want to begin by negating the Old Testament as untruth or that God changed his mind (thus not being particularly immutable, perfect, or unchanging), then cool. That's something interesting to talk about.

3085042

with faith and real intent.

This one is always my favorite. It lets you instantly negate everyone who never got an answer, like myself. Because clearly we weren't doing some secret, undescribed magical ritual quiiiite correctly for God to care.

Also, the fact that you are condemning my God based on material that you don't even believe makes your argument rather thin.

I condemn the idea that the earth is flat or the sun revolves around it. Even if I don't believe it.

Or do we have to believe something in order to not believe in it? How paradoxical.

3087419 3083403
A few things, since I do not really see the point of continuing this. I came here hoping to share some of my beliefs, but it appears that I am not talking to people who are even remotely interested in hearing it (which is fine if you don't want to), but want a good knock-down, drag-out argument (which is not so good). In fact, what am I supposed to argue? I am relatively young, and although I have had nearly 17 years of religious education I don't have the tools necessary to defend my faith on these obscure points. I have a complete basic understanding of the Gospel, but that's not enough, apparently. I must not have the knowledge needed to say that my God isn't evil, perhaps because the idea is so bizarre to me. I wasn't taught in church to say my God isn't evil; I was taught the Gospel so I could share it with others.

God himself doesn't change. What he commands us to do can, however, because the world changes constantly.

Mormonism is Christianity. It's just a nickname given us by the media. Our name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in case you didn't know. The only difference--or addition, rather--in our beliefs is that we believe Christ restored his church personally to the earth and our Heavenly Father leads us today through prophets and apostles.

I'm sorry that you did not receive an answer to your prayer. This is the truth: we often do not receive an answer in the way we think we will. And sometimes we don't get the answer we want. If there is chaos around us it can make it difficult for us to get impressions. I speak from experience.

I hope I have only reflected my beliefs and compassion in this conversation, and I apologize for not being able to effectively defend my beliefs, because that was my intent. If you have any questions about any gospel principles feel free to ask, any time, or PM me.

3089512

I came here hoping to share some of my beliefs

Perhaps you were looking for the 'Christian club', not 'the Christian debate club'?

3085042

Thankfully, we have prophets and apostles to guide us in these latter days so that we don't have to rely on out-dated anecdotes for what is appropriate to do.

Now this is curious.
Who are the prophets and apostles for today?

Times change vastly, and everything in an ancient (and oft mistranslated) book may not apply to us now.

Good, good.
Now, take this, and apply it just a teeny bit further, then we can agree that the whole bronze age book of legends doesn't apply to us now.

God has never commanded me to kill anyone.

Well, if you were one of those who takes the Bible as god's word, then yes, he did.
Fortunately, at least you're not that.

We also can take advantage of the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and receive answers to our questions personally, if we ask with faith and real intent.

'Holy Ghost', AKA: your own conscience and imagination.

Also, the fact that you are condemning my God based on material that you don't even believe makes your argument rather thin.

I can condemn the actions of Nightmare Moon without believing in MLP as literal truth.
Likewise, I can condemn god in his capacity as a fictional character.

Do only believe that this small portion is true?

Sure, a small part of the Bible is true.
Certain parts of it can be read as a (dubious) history book, which sometimes gets facts correct as corroborated by archeological evidence and/or other sources from the period... and sometimes gets facts wrong, as proven by archeological evidence or other documents.
Nevertheless, there is some useful information about human history in there, thought it's limited to the region of Israel from about 4000 years ago to about 1700 years ago.

I have a complete basic understanding of the Gospel, but that's not enough, apparently.

Hint: the more you learn about it, the less believable it becomes... especially if you delve into the history of how those books were written.