So, while working through my writers block on that last chapter of Elements of Insanity, I drafted out a short story crisis-crossover tie-in featuring both Carrot Tops having an awkward conversation with each other, while also introducing a possible foreshadowing of the ship that has been discussed with her and Written Script.

--link--

Apologies for the current state of grammar/spelling -- my primary editor seems to still be on hiatus, so self-proofing is going slowly. Also, while I will gladly answer any question direct at me personally, I otherwise intend to sit back and let the rest of the Quorum discus this privately -- just like any other author has to.

Before I go, however, I must also take a minute to inform you all that the issue of any discussion on canonicity is compounded by the fact that apparently Talon-and-Thorn had also been planning to do his own take on the pairing.

Both of us only found out recently, and the two of us have been discussing through PM the possibility making our fics compatible with each other. The timeframes could work, since they don't overlap. Mine taking place before the Trixies and Twilights get back from the Everfree, while his is after. Unfortunately, we've got one major impasse. That being that he'd been planning to write L!CT as being furious with her counterpart for selling the farm, whereas in my own story it's mostly a non-issue --especially in lite of the feud with AJ having been mostly buried back in CTS-- and I even have L!CT briefly contemplate on whether or not her own life would have been easier had she done the same (though while still affirming that she loves being a farmer no matter how hard it is).

Now personally I don't think it's really in CT's character as we've established her to get as angry as T&T seems to want to make her, but we'll have to wait until he's actually finished with his own fic to fully judge such. Plus, I'm not even sure how much I can weigh in on that discussion, given the potential conflict of interests the existence of my own fic creates.

...

Anyway, both T&T and I have resolved between each other that canonicity is not our primary concern and that if only one fic can be canon we'll both abide by the decisions of the quorum as to which makes the cut. That said, I'm wondering f "canonicity" should even really be much of a concern at all. Given that Co2E is it's self already a B-canon tie-in, it's own derivatives would likely be only C-canon. As such we could potentially just take a broad-strokes approach, "canonizing" both and just not worrying about the contradiction -- since much like Equestria Girls in relation the actual show, the events of Co2E aren't usually supposed to come up all that often in the core canon.

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As an idle thought for overcoming any potential issues, might it be possibly to simply reverse the order - so that your story is second and takes place after the Twixies get back, and T&T's is first and takes place while they're gone? Or at least use that as a starting-off point?

Just a thought.

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To address the question directly asked -- probably not. Most notably, it's my understanding from discussions with him that T&T is intending to like with his Ditzy fic run from shortly after the Twilights and Trixies get back all the way to the point where the L6 leave to go home. Plus I still think it's OOC for her to be all that angry as T&T needs her to be in the first place (though again, maybe that's just a conflict of interest speaking)

I suppose ~maybe~ it's a possibility, though I'm not currently sure how I'd tweak my own fic here to account for things that to me at least seem like should have already come up. I can at least run the idea past T&T though and see what he think.

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I second this. As improved as Carrot Top and Applejack's relationship is, she would not instantly understand her other self selling a farm she poured her blood, sweat and tears into working to somepony she was resentful and jealous of for some long.

What might work, if you and/or Talon are up to it, is have the two try to get along. Everything is going nicely, there's talk about coltfriends and roommates and all that...and then L!CT asks about the farm. She tries to play it cool, but the conversation gets more and more heated until she finally explodes and storms off. Then in part two, she actually goes to see this Sweet Apple Acres, discovers that there is no Trust or anything like it in this world, and realizes she reacted based solely on her own experiences and didn't take the other world into account. M!CT admits that she didn't understand how important the farm really was, and the two reconcile.

Of course, you might as well be writing an entirely new story at that point, so you could just reverse them and smooth out the differences. Or chalk it all up to hypertime. Or retcon it all to boost sales. Or RDD can take all his characters and write up a piece of junk about teenage mares lusting after sex while claiming they're just aliens, while also ripping out the entire cast of the Lunaverse so that there will have to be a complete reboot and everything has to start all over, but be much closer to the baseline because it's all you have anymore.

...If you didn't get that last one, you are a happier person than I. Anyway, just stick to the first two paragraphs.

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Or RDD can take all his characters and write up a piece of junk about teenage mares lusting after sex while claiming they're just aliens, while also ripping out the entire cast of the Lunaverse so that there will have to be a complete reboot and everything has to start all over, but be much closer to the baseline because it's all you have anymore.

Um...hang on, I have this, maybe...Red Hood and the Outlaws? Starfire's been kind of sex'd-up in the New 52, I know from Linkara...

3474239 3474299 : I'm inclined to agree that preserving the conflict between the CTs is a good idea. I could easily see L!CT getting frustrated and angry about how she thinks about how she went through Hell to keep her farm in CTS, while apparently her other self just folded and gave it up without trying. I think a great story could be told about that conflict.

Plus, it could flesh out our CT a bit more. She doesn't get much opportunity to be anything besides placidly happy or worried. Anger could reveal more depth to her character.

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Yeah, we'll go with that one.

BTW, Starfire was turned into a fanservice object loooooong before the New 52. So many tales have been told of folks falling in love with how she was presented on the cartoon, then actually buying a comic with her in it and discovering how DC was treating her. All the New 52 did was drop the pretense and run with the crap from day one.

Not that I'm excusing it, mind you. Just saying that Linkara's got a very...skewed look at the reboot. I actually enjoyed a lot of the books when it started, although I've quit mostly because I find DC's management disgusting and have no interest in supporting them any longer. The only book of the big two that I still read regularly is the new Ms. Marvel, which is just fantastic.

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I'm going to agree with the conflict thing. Not that your fic is gonna be shot down because you have the two Carrot Tops getting along, Emeral! I'm just saying that I think it's a better launching-off point.

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I started reading Aquaman...and apparently I read Catwoman now, though that may be changing. I only purchase the collected volumes, not the individual comics, and Gotham Underground (#4) was...weird. I don't even know if it was bad. Actually I was quite enjoying it until we actually got to the underground part. Prior to that...I cannot read a comic wherein Penguin is flying around in a helicopter with an umbrella's top instead of helicopter blades and not be entertained. And Penguin sort of makes a perfect nemesis for Catwoman.

Yeah, my total exposure to most of the Teen Titans is the TV show, and I do know enough about the comics that I should probably keep things that way.

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So T&T and myself have been talking about it more, and he also asked me to pass on a --link-- to his still work-in-progress fic. So I guess maybe now this post is can be for discussing that as well.

Not that your fic is gonna be shot down because you have the two Carrot Tops getting along, Emeral! I'm just saying that I think it's a better launching-off point.

Is this addressed to me, is it okay for me to speak on my own behalf here?

Assuming it is... for T&T's fic, yes, the conflict is the launching off point. For my own, however, I think any such conflict would only get in the way, and that re-ordering which fic comes first would only mean everything important should have already been addressed leaving my own almost entirely redundant -- a mere coda at best for a cheep gag with the boyfriend.

Having said that I do sort of agree with IAH (though not to nearly so extreme an extent). I still think outright hostility on L!CT's part would be OOC, as even back when she and AJ where still rivals, CT was always more passive aggressive instead of overtly so. What I do think could still work is the notion that L!CT is sort of just "playing it cool" and that she might still be more bothered than she lets on in my fic (even if she might not be aware of such herself yet). Then later when Trixie is still in the hospital and nopony knows when or even if she'll wake up, all the frustration just sort of compounds and boils over causing her to become irate/snippy and start lashing out at M!CT.

I've discussed as much with T&T, but overall he seems to be as attached to his version of events as I am to mine. We both could make edits to be more compliant with the other, but I don't think either of us really want to. Despite our own efforts to try reconciling them privately, they are still independent ideas and I think we want them to each be evaluated as such.

What we have here is the unfortunate accident of two authors with different ideas relating to the same basic events and writing about them at the same time. On a technicality mine was written first, which is usually what sets the tone for canon, but with the proximity being so close to each other that issue is more complicated than it would normally be otherwise. Still as crossover tie-ins, I'm not even entirely sure how important the issue of canon really should be here.

Having read both stories (or what there is of them), I would personally prefer T&T's story to be canonized over Emeral's. I still think that the conflict between the Carrot Top's leads for a more interesting narrative arc, adds some nice depth to one of our less-utilized L6 members, and fits her character well. If we can only have one of them, I"d vote for that one. But YMMV.

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Well, I guess my next question is - where were you planning on going in your story? Do you have any kind of (slice-of-life-style) conflict planned?

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Initially this was as far as I planned to take it. Much like the "epilogue" I wrote for Twilight post-crossover. This was really only meant to be an introspective character piece and not a fully fleshed out adventure in and of itself. Also, given that the time the L6 spend in the Mane-verse is limited, I didn't want to monopolize too much of that, preferring to leave other authors (like T&T) room to tell their own stories as well.

Having said that, however, as T&T and I discussed our idea's privately over the past few days before now. I did get a little inspired by some of the things he's doing. As such, I've contemplated ways to further expand my own fic with a hypothetical second chapter. In it I would maybe further explore some tension between the two CT's as they search for a remedy that would help Trixie recover (something already peripherally established in T&T's previous Ditzy fic). The farm might come up, again, but probably more as a straw that broke the camels back scenario. CT could still get angry at her counterpart, but more so as a obvious result of stress. I sort of imagine having a scene where L!CT is exhaustively searching through the local copy of their grandma's recipe book, while M!CT tries suggesting they just leave it to the doctors -- "So, you trying to tell me to give up on my friend the way you gave up on our farm!"

Furthermore, since there "quest" would also eventually take them into the Everfree Forest, I think I'd want to work in some kind of encounter with M!Zecora, which could lead to some potentially interesting conflicts and resolutions as well.

The only reason I haven't written any of this yet, is because I really would prefer if both fics could be canon, so I'm hesitant to write anything that would overtly supplant T&T's half. Whereas what I'd already posted for consideration was all basically written before I even knew he was also writing a CT/CT fic.

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3476133 I'm really conflicted on this. I think there might be a way to combine both the initial conflict, the working together to help Trixie thing and the meeting with M!Zecora, and THEN have the two CT sit down to talk a bit more about the M!CT non farm life, the whole boyfriend thing and THEN Emeral's switcheroo plot.

With some cooperation we could have a pretty cool story on our hands. I like both idea and would like to see them both completed.

This whole scenario is very confusing, especially in trying to figure out just how much I can participate in any conversation. In regards to my own fic, I feel as though I should like any other contributor sit back and let the Quorum reach its own decisions. In regards to T&T's fic though, I should as a member of the quorum feel free to voice any and all concerns... but can I really do that fairly when the existence of my own fic creates an obvious conflict of interests?

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With some cooperation we could have a pretty cool story on our hands.

That'd be nice, but I'm not sure if it would really ever work out. T&T and myself had already been discussing these two fics for a few days prior to bringing this to the quorum, and I think we're both too attached to our own particular interpretations. So baring significant third party intervention and Quorum mandate, I don't see the two fics ever being reconciled with each other. Not to mention that the compromises need to pull it off might just leave both T&T and myself frustrated and unhappy with the result.

So to address the whole Quorum, if I may...?

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For me the largest frustration is not just whether or not or not L!CT is angry about the farm, but also M!CT getting depressed and feeling like a miserable failure in her own life because of it. Obviously I prefer my own less angsty interpretation, and if that was all it was maybe it wouldn't bother me so much. What does bother me though is that we usually try to claim the Lunaverse is NOT darker and edgier than the show, yet that seems to me to be precisely the kind of emotional dynamic that is being cited as the primary appeal of T&T's fic over mine -- and worse, because it's a crossover it means dragging those D&E elements into the context of the actual show as well.

Now I'll admit my own fic doesn't really have much in the way of driving conflict or narrative tension, but it wasn't really intended to, being as it just a single scene. It's not that there is zero conflict, just that tension is kept short, simple, and in-scale to the word count. Having said that though, while I don't really want to change anything about what I've already written, I do have some idea's for a second chapter (mentioned above) that might just add some more of what the quorum seems to want. My only problem is I don't know if it's okay for me to write it or not.

Had I submitted this fic independently and the Quorum's response was more or less, 'We like what you've got so far, but could you expand further upon it?' then the answer would probably be yes. I didn't submit this independently though, so if I now wrote such an expansion would it be somehow like "stealing" from T&T?

As with everything I write, I don't need this fic to be canon. I wrote a story that speaks true to me, and that all I ever need to be. At the same time, however, I would still like it to be canon and would like the opportunity to do whatever is within my own willing ability to maximize that chance.

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For me the largest frustration is not just whether or not or not L!CT is angry about the farm, but also M!CT getting depressed and feeling like a miserable failure in her own life because of it. Obviously I prefer my own less angsty interpretation, and if that was all it was maybe it wouldn't bother me so much. What does bother me though is that we usually try to claim the Lunaverse is NOT darker and edgier than the show, yet that seems to me to be precisely the kind of emotional dynamic that is being cited as the primary appeal of T&T's fic over mine -- and worse, because it's a crossover it means dragging those D&E elements into the context of the actual show as well.

We already had this happen for M!Lyra, though, in the original Co2E fic. She was pretty explicit about feeling inferior to the Lunaverse Lyra. So I don't think that's out of bounds. (And I don't think it's 'darker' to say that the L!L6, great heroes and protagonists, feel more fulfilled than the M!L6, who are background ponies. That seems reasonable to me, as long as we don't go overboard and have M!CT try to jump off the Canterhorn or something.) And I do think there's a more compelling and deeper story to be found when the two CT's have sharp disagreements, as opposed to where they brush their differences under the rug.

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Yes, we had it with M!Lyra, but to me that just goes to show that she's the character who should probably be used to tell that kind of story. It'd also be less dark with Lyra because those are her natural emotions, whereas M!CT seemed otherwise content with her simple life before her own double threw an overblown temper tantrum.

That said, I do agree that the M!counterparts aren't heroes, and while I do think that means they might not be living up to their full potential, I don't think that it should follow that they are innately unsatisfied in their lives. Sure they are just ordinary background ponies, but their shouldn't ever be any shame in just being a normal person.

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So I worked up the intro for a potential second chapter (link), approaching the idea of a conflict between the two Carrot Tops from a different and I think more balanced angle (and one not so dependent on retreading the aborted AJ rivalry), while also adding in a third wheel to shake up the dynamic. It's still very much an early draft though, and I'm not sure if I should keep going or not... opinions?

I don't exactly like that it only makes two fics that were already hard to reconcile even harder, but I'm not sure that reconciliation was ever possible in the first place.

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I...wouldn't make this the second chapter of your story. It's kind of at-odds with the first one in terms of tone.

3495507 3495627 : I agree with RDD on this one, personally. It's not badly written, but it clashes sharply with chapter 1.

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Does it really? The situation changes drastically in the intervening days, so why not the tone? Is the stress of her friend comatose in the hospital not reason enough for CT to get more snippy with her double? Isn't that the same excuse for why it supposedly works in T&T's story?

It still feels natural enough to me, or at least more so than the alternative. I just don't like how externally dependent the conflict is in T&T's version, not when we pretty much buried the AJ rivalry back in CTS. That's why I think it needs to be something deeper and more personal to the Carrot Tops, also something that M!CT can be just as angry about instead of only being reduced to a sack of depression.

But maybe I'm just taking this all too personally, but after the way these two fics have been discussed so far, that's how I feel. I feel like there's been no real discussion about the opposing merits of the two fics, and that mine is just outright inferior for not going far enough in exploring concepts. When the only compromise proposed to reconcile my fic is to turn it into nothing more than an ending gag epilogue for the boyfriend scene, it makes me feel like I failed everywhere else. All issues of canon aside, I still want my to be able to make the most of my own ideas or there just isn't any point. There's just no way I feel I can do that as mere coda to T&T's fic.

It's not like I just pulled this all out my ass either. I wouldn't have written this follow up if I didn't genuinely believe in it. I'm not just tying to copy T&T because the Quorum seems to be leaning in favor of his story. This was something I was inspired to write before that, back while T&T and I were first talking about this all in private and I was trying to come up with ways my fic could lead into the concepts he seemed to want to explore.

I don't know what to do anymore. I've been told my initial treatment didn't go far enough, and now that my follow up apparently goes too far or something. I'm tired of hearing about what I'm doing wrong and would like to know what I could maybe do to make it better -- canon or no canon.

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The situation changes drastically in the intervening days, so why not the tone?

Because within the story you have itself, the reader isn't braced for it, even if objectively he or she remembers that Trixie's knocked out in the hospital; a few lines reminding the reader about that fact isn't going to help. What he or she instead gets is one chapter of Carrot Top and Carrot Top being fairly buddy-buddy and willing to be comfortable around each other, followed by a chapter of L!Carrot Top flipping out on M!Carrot Top narratively out of nowhere. It's not a question about whether or not chapter one didn't go far enough - though I don't think it did - or chapter two went too far - it didn't, it just came out of nowhere - it's just that there's a huge difference in tone between the two.

I guess what I'm saying is, pick something, and then run with it. If you want to write a story about the two Carrot Tops getting along, that's fine, but stick to it since you set up a fairly lighthearted story. And if you want that lighthearted story to take a more serious turn, then do some buildup to that turn.

Compare/contrast, for example, how I wrote Family Matters. The first two chapters are pretty much nothing but sugar-induced sweetness, but I dropped hints here and there for the turn the story was going to take, including an entire chapter - chapter three - involving things going gradually and visibly downhill. Then there was something of a breather chapter to let the audience get used to the turn I'd taken in chapter four before shit hit the fan in chapter five. But chapter four still had a relatively lighthearted moment in it so that the upturn that came at the end of chapter five and positive spin throughout chapter six wouldn't, itself, feel like another whiplash-inducing turn.

If I was making a suggestion for stringing chapters one and two of this story together...the main conflict seems to be about Mane!Carrot Top not measuring up to Luna!Carrot Top's standards in her own mind (regardless of whether or not L!CT is actually setting them), seeming to be in a visibly worse situation on the surface, so take that idea and run with it, giving us chapters covering the days you skipped over. Have Written Script really enjoy his "date" with L!CT, which bugs M!CT and makes her feel jealous. Have L!CT accidentally drop hints here and there that her life is more glamorous - her having gone to the Gala, for example, even if it was to stop Zizanie (which even then just makes it sound more spy-thriller-y and glamorous to M!CT) - that further makes M!CT feel inadequate, even as L!CT is getting more and more visibly worried about Trixie (which, itself, makes M!CT feel all the more small). Then bring us your chapter two (which by now sounds more like it'll be chapter four or so), where L!CT seemingly finally calls M!CT a failure compared to her, even if L!CT is only saying what she is out of worry and concern for Trixie. And then move on to resolution.

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If you want to write a story about the two Carrot Tops getting along, that's fine, but stick to it since you set up a fairly lighthearted story.

I guess. Thing is that I'm not really sure where else to go with that setup. What little conflict was there resolved more or less without incident. It was only ever really meant to be a short vignette, a setup some other author could maybe follow up on, but which I felt stood well enough on its own. I could maybe do more with Written Script, but I'm terrible at doing the romancy stuff, so I'm not sure I could really do it the justice it deserves.

giving us chapters covering the days you skipped over.

Maybe, but back to my original intent in all this, I never wanted to use up the entire limited time available in the crossover. I wanted to leave room for other authors to write as well. I'd like to leave room for T&T actually, but I can't figure out how to do that when his story starts from the premise that the CT's are interacting for the first time. Nor do I feel I can just move my story to after his since there'd really be no time left to fit in before the L6 all have to go home, and I'm not really sure what they'd have to talk about if everything but the boyfriend would have already been dealt with.

This second chapter basically started out as a concept to bridge the gap between T&T and myself, even if it evolved into something else when such a bridge became seemingly impossible. So maybe I need to build into it better, but I don't think I can do all the intervening days, maybe earlier that morning when the Twilights and other Trixie wake up. On the other hand, I do also like the shock value of just having it come up suddenly out of nowhere. It's not just the audience who'd be taken off guard, even the CTs weren't expecting to get into a fight over this. So I like the idea of them having to figure out where it all went wrong after the fact as part of the reconciliation process. I sort of feel like if I build it up first, I'll have nothing left to work with after.

Does that seem like a workable premise for a story, or do you still think it's too harsh a tonal shift?

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I think it's too harsh. Sudden shock can be a good thing, but I think it works better in a visual medium, like a movie, than in a written one like fanfiction.

Hmm.

Y'know, I think this discussion has been a little one-sided (which I know wasn't your intent, I just find myself wanting to hear T&T's input on this thing). Let's move it over to the Brainstorming Thread XVII so that Talon & Thorn can get involved.

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It was only ever really meant to be a short vignette, a setup some other author could maybe follow up on, but which I felt stood well enough on its own.

Then why not just write that?

You're the one who usually argues that canonicity is not the most important thing. Why change your one-shot to make it fit into canon?

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It's not about making my story fit canon... and honestly I hate that even here at C-level we're apparently making such a big deal out of canon that it has to be a one or the other choice in the first place.

Regardless I already said I wouldn't have added a second chapter if I didn't believe in it. This is about me taking the critique the quorum gave me to work with, which basically amounted to being told my fic wasn't good enough to apparently even debate which should be canon. Its not that I care about changing my fic to make it fit, it's about me caring that it's good enough to actually warrant consideration instead of being dismissed outright.