By actively, I mean that the person in question is making decisions that would allow him to kill himself at one point in the future WHEN he chooses to. It can be stuff like:

• He is an animal lover, always had a cat, but recently when his kitty died, he said to himself that even though he would very much want to - he'll not get another kitten because it could interfere with his plans in the future (he considers abandoning or killing it is not an option).
• He is not making friends on purpose so that when he goes, the impact on people will be minimized - same with family, he's keeping them all at the distance
• He makes sure to have his will in check so that there would be no fighting after he's gone
• And so on.

The reason he is doing that? Maybe he has seen someone close to him deteriorating with age and don’t want to go through that… or maybe he just sat on the couch one day, watching a favorite movie with a six-pack, and had the 'this whole life thing is not for me' epiphany. One way or the other – he doesn’t see himself waiting to die of old age, maybe he even made a mental note saying 'if nothing changes until I reach forty then I'm out.'

Would you find such behavior odd?

6831360
What you describe may not be all that unusual (the will bit) or can be considered “normal” grouchy behaviour (being friendless and such). In general, I’d call all of these precautions, rather than plans. For planning your own death would sound more like, “If I drink twenty shots of vodka each day, I’ll be dead by the next Christmas,” in my opinion, at least.

6831360 I think everyone should do this. It's tragic that oftentimes after a person dies, everything is in disarray and relatives have to fight each other for the leftovers because the reckless dead man didn't write a will.

We plan stuff all the time, and what's more important to plan than your own life?

6831407
What, everyone should isolate themselves from friends and family so that nobody will miss them? That’s a bit too far. Obviously it’s good to be prepared for an accidental death (having a will and whatnot) but actively making sure they have no relationships or obligations sounds like this is what’s going on here.

6831360
It’s not a healthy thought pattern, and it worries me because in the process of making sure that your death won’t affect too much, it seems like you’re also getting rid of everything that could make life living. I can’t speak for everyone but I try to hold on for the people I love and because I have ambitions and plans for the future.

I think it’s better to put yourself in a position where you can’t/won’t want to kill yourself. Don’t make it easy for yourself. If your life is boring, or not meaningful, or whatever, go out and change things. Meet new people (I know you’ve said you don’t want to), visit new places, try new things. Make a different life for yourself. Give living differently a try first. Besides, there’s time left before you “get old and deteriorate”. You don’t have to address that issue yet. Enjoy life first.

6831524 People do say their goodbyes on their deathbeds to the ones they feel connected with, you know? You don't say goodbye to someone if don't intend to depart from them.

And if someone is preparing to die prematurely, then isolation is more of a symptom than the root problem. If you solved the main issue (depression, suicidal tendencies or whatever it is) the symptom would go away on its own.

When I promoted planning, I was thinking about the plans that don't negatively affect your life. It takes you 1 minute to write a will, and it doesn't affect your life at all, yet I'm willing to bet that the majority of people here don't have a will.

6831378

OK, thanks for the opinion - although:

For planning your own death would sound more like, “If I drink twenty shots of vodka each day, I’ll be dead by the next Christmas,” in my opinion, at least.

This is crappy method - I know some people who do that, and they're fine for years...

6831407

Well, the will part may be considered the most normal thing on that list (although, if someone is without children, then I'm not sure how significant that would be). However, what about the rest? Would such behavior as not making friends on purpose, or even not owning a pet, seemed reasonable?

And if someone is preparing to die prematurely, then isolation is more of a symptom than the root problem. If you solved the main issue (depression, suicidal tendencies or whatever it is) the symptom would go away on its own.

You're assuming that everyone who thinks about ending their life must be depressed or otherwise ill? What if that person is not depressed per se, but doesn't see the point of living for whatever reason? What if he has an incurable disease that makes his life crappy?

6831524

OK, let's say that you're 32 - so, pretty much passing the midpoint of your life. As you look towards the future, the best picture is a constant struggle, for the next 30-40 years, only to land 3 meters underground in a pine box at the end. People tell you to 'enjoy life,' but when asks for specifics, they are usually talking about family and stuff... But, you think like this:

I don't want to have a family because:
- I do not know if I will be able to provide for them
- I hate children, and they would bring chaos in my life
- I can barely find time for my hobbies right now, and family would steal even more
- All the above reasons would make it very unfair to your spouse and children - they deserve better

When it comes to making friends, you simply don't have the time... Looking at people, you wonder how the hell do they find the time to socialize at all when you're barely able to keep up with work and hobbies...

Your health is also not getting any better, it can only get worse at this point...

So you conclude, that the best course of action is not to have family and friends so that you won't be a burden to anyone.

How is the above thinking invalid?

6832845 If you know for a fact that you will die on a certain date, then getting away your pets and concluding friendships before that date is a prudent thing to do, IMO. Why would you want your pet to starve to death if you can help it, right?

I see nothing wrong with the planning for death if you know it's coming (if say, you have an incurable tumor and you know when you're going to die). It's the planning of suicide that I have issues with.

Here's how I view it:
It's a very sensible thing to chase every person out of the building before you blow it up. If you know for a fact that the building is going to explode, then performing evacuation to reduce the number of deaths is a good thing. You should totally do that if you know the building is going to blow up.
The issue here is not planning the evacuation. The issue here is why are you even planning to blow up a building? That's the actual problem, not the evacuation part.

What if that person is not depressed per se, but doesn't see the point of living for whatever reason?

Oftentimes, there are more than one solutions to one problem. If you want to die, then yes, one solution is to commit suicide (and you should totally give away your pet before you do it). But it's not the only valid solution. A better solution would be if you fixed the desire to die. Then the problem would just vanish with no bad consequences. I'm not saying this kind of solution is easy. In some cases, it may even be impossible. But if there's even a slight chance of an alternative solution to suicide, you should totally explore it before you burn the bridge of life behind you.

6832867

[...]But if there's even a slight chance of an alternative solution to suicide, you should totally explore it before you burn the bridge of life behind you.

Isn't that a nicely set up trap though? Because there is almost always a chance of an alternate solution... If you ever try reading through suicide prevention sites or posts from 'good samaritans' - they will give you a nice checklist of things to try, things that can make your life worth living - in their eyes anyway. The catch is that in most cases, you would spend your entire life trying them all out (I guess that's the point).

What if the person is so out of this world, that adopting the social norms is torture for him? Should he try anyway and 'hope for the best'? At what point would you - or the society - say 'enough is enough' and just let him go?

6833068
Life is a blink but death is forever. Abandoning life prematurely makes about as much sense in a way as cutting your arm off because you got a cut and it hurts like a bitch. You're gonna die anyway, so why not spend your time in figuring out what you want? You got things you like and there's a gazillion things you never tried and people you never met. There are infinite books you haven't read, movies you haven't seen, music you haven't heard. Are you implying that there is not a single thing you like? Everything is hateful is harmful? Because if it isn't, you're gonna end up dead anyway, why not take advantage of the short period of time you have?

What if the person is so out of this world, that adopting the social norms is torture for him?

We all got things we hate. I hate having to work in order to be able to live, and I think spending 1/3 of my life doing that is preposterous. Still do, though. You adapt and move on or stay still and wail your fate.

Should he try anyway and 'hope for the best'?

Well... yes. Tomorrow is a hope, never a promise. We all do that, anyway. He isn't special.

At what point would you - or the society - say 'enough is enough' and just let him go?

When all choices are exhausted, of course. Again, like with the arm example, you do everything you can to save it instead of cutting it off mid-way and saying, "eh, I tried long enough." Imagine hearing that from your doctor as an explanation of why you're now missing an arm. Is it acceptable?

6833068

Isn't that a nicely set up trap though? Because there is almost always a chance of an alternate solution...

It's not a trap if you can't lose. And in choosing to explore other options, you lose nothing. You're not pressed for time to die. It doesn't matter if you die today or 50 years from now. Time doesn't matter, so why be in such a hurry?

The catch is that in most cases, you would spend your entire life trying them all out (I guess that's the point).

You know what would be tragic? If there was a line on that checklist that would make your life really awesome and you'd enjoy every moment of it, but you wouldn't because you'd be dead. Now that's a tragedy.

By trying all the alternative options in vane and wasting all your life, you still don't lose anything. Well, you lose your life, but then again, losing your life was the first solution, so you basically come out ahead, no matter how it works out.

What if the person is so out of this world, that adopting the social norms is torture for him?

Then the person does not adopt social norms and lives happily ever after.

Should he try anyway and 'hope for the best'?

Either live within the systems or go outside the system and explore life there. Just because systems exist, doesn't mean you have to take part in them.

At what point would you - or the society - say 'enough is enough' and just let him go?

As for society, when an individual becomes harmful to others, it's time to do something about that.

As for the individual, he has the right to end his life at any point, and of course, he can do that if he so chooses. If life is nothing but pain and misery because of a medical condition, I might even agree with the individual. But outside of it being the only option, I don't agree with that choice. Of course, the individual doesn't need my approval. But if the individual wants to know if it's the right choice to end his life because of boredom, then my opinion is that no, it's not the right solution.

6833081

Let's make one thing clear - I'm not suicidal, not in a sense that I'm thinking of doing anything anytime soon. I'm doing a little research, that's all.

Are you implying that there is not a single thing you like? Everything is hateful is harmful?

Nope... there are things I like, and they've kept me going thus far. But, with time, it seems that just living life is becoming a full-time job where you should find the time to raise a family, and to learn new skills, and to maintain friendships, and to travel, and to work and to have hobbies... How the hell do people find time for all those things, when I can barely find time to work and write, is beyond me.

For the past few months, I had a 'privilege' of watching how life deprecates with age and what will become of us as we get older... I got the 'light' version, and it still scares the hell out of me.

I could add more reasons why I'm researching stuff like that, but 'normal' people would probably find them ludicrous, pathetic or stupid - and we would be back to the neat little circle argument again. Suffice it to say, I know who I am - I have a comparison with other people my age that I know + my own brother - and I'm not kind of person anyone should rely on - so the family and friends are out. That leaves hobbies, but how long will them last?

Bottom line is, I believe some people are simply defective and shouldn't be here. In the past, we were sent to the front line, and that solved the problem. Gruesome? Maybe, but it worked.

I may be wrong, of course - but spending another 30-40-50 years searching for some 'hope' while watching how your body and/or mind, falls apart doesn't seem like fun...

6833573

I'm not suicidal, not in a sense that I'm thinking of doing anything anytime soon. I'm doing a little research, that's all.

I was using "you" in the sense of a general plural, and I don't think you're suicidal. I do kind of believe however that you're looking for either a solid excuse for doing so or 'permission'. It is quite worrisome.

Now, to the other points.

As for what comes next, a lot of people ignore it. A lot have thought about it. For myself, I have. It is kind the thought of being only oblivion after death. I've talked to a lot of people who find it terrifying and a huge loss so they cling to religion and thoughts of afterlife. It seemed big to me as well but I've thought extensively on it and it scares me not at all. I describe it more as a relaxing thought, and with all I know about religion and afterlives, the better alternative.

What happens in an older age is a change. Your mind jumps to the frame of it without gradual steps and it feels too much, the ails of older age notwithstanding. Yet, like the thought of oblivion is for others, it is a shift from the norm that is terrifying, instead of considering it a change into a new norm. People grow old and deal with it. I'm pretty sure that there might be an example of it or two. Even with the worst things happening.

As for the other questions; companionship, family, interests, learning, traveling, etc, etc... These are all a few things that give others meaning. Some of them might coincide with yours or not. It doesn't matter. You have it all wrong.

You don't go looking for a magic cup from where meaning and happiness will overflow. There is none. You are the one who makes meaning. The universe is vast, uncaring, and all is forgotten in time. Entropy takes us all and all our creations. God is dead. What do you have? Yourself. You choose what everything means and what. You have an absolute freedom beyond all others. One may be ailing, imprisoned, broken and ruined, having lost everything. And that same person could very well say he wants to continue living because seeing a blue sky every now and then makes it all worth it. It doesn't have a meaning or worth it to you, but it does to him, and he chose to give it that value. And to him it makes it worth it.

Don't try to find an outside source of happiness that will flow into you. You're looking over all the wrong places.

Bottom line is, I believe some people are simply defective and shouldn't be here.

Newsflash; we all are defective. You're not special. There isn't a should or shouldn't be here. This is all a construct. You made a construct in your head of a class of 'defective' that includes you and lets others out. Isn't an 8 year old kid with a missing leg defective? Why not put it out of its misery, god knows how much he's gonna miss out and how hard his life will be. That guy went over 60, let's go do him a favor. What, you didn't get to be good at what you wanted to do and feel will never be happy because of it? No prob, swallow this cyanide.

So, shall we start going about which are defective and shouldn't be here? Who else do we pick? How about jews? Hey, gruesome, but it works!

I may be wrong, of course - but spending another 30-40-50 years searching for some 'hope' while watching how your body and/or mind, falls apart doesn't seem like fun...

Everyone has that. There's not a single thing that will make you happy forever. What you loved once you will feel nothing for the next day. Life is a constant search, and all people struggle. But hey, look at that! A lot of people make do, and then they don't. Then they start again.

Don't search for a hope. You'll find shit. Make one.

6831360 One thing I don't get is that you're complaining that you don't have enough time, yet a solution you're thinking about involves shaving off 50 years of your life. How do you reconcile those two opposite views? Do you want more time or less time?

6833624

You seem to be one of those 'life is the most precious thing' people. Whether you're a believer or not - you guys seem to value the fact of breathing the air above everything else, and this is one thing I could never understand...

If I'm right, then this discussion won't get us anywhere. But...

[...]Yet, like the thought of oblivion is for others, it is a shift from the norm that is terrifying, instead of considering it a change into a new norm. People grow old and deal with it. I'm pretty sure that there might be an example of it or two. Even with the worst things happening.

Yeah, it does, because the new 'norm' usually implies some form of disability. It sucks even if you're lucky, and if you're not, then you'll end up depending on others to take a leak. I don't know about you, but every time I have to ask someone for help with something that I should be able to do myself, I feel like crap about it. I can't imagine asking people to bath me or wipe my ass - even if I put dignity issues aside, those people - usually family - have their own lives! People say suicide is selfish... how about expecting your family to throw everything away and take care of you?

So yeah, that new 'norm' scares the hell out of me and thinking I could adapt to living like that makes it even worse. That's one of the reasons I'm not planning kids - reproduction just to get some free slaves for old years is disgusting as hell.

[...]One may be ailing, imprisoned, broken and ruined, having lost everything. And that same person could very well say he wants to continue living because seeing a blue sky every now and then makes it all worth it. It doesn't have a meaning or worth it to you, but it does to him, and he chose to give it that value. And to him it makes it worth it.

But this is precisely my point - everyone is different. What gives meaning to some people may not work for others. Most happy people I know didn't have to look at all. The usual stuff - be it family, be it partying hard, be it their job - works for them. Isn't it possible that there are some people on the other side of the extreme and nothing (or almost nothing) will ever make them feel as if their life has meaning?

Telling them to 'Just keep looking, so eventually, they'll find it' seems like an excuse made up by the society to feel good about itself...

Newsflash; we all are defective. You're not special. There isn't a should or shouldn't be here. This is all a construct. Isn't an 8 year old kid with a missing leg defective? Why not put it out of its misery, god knows how much he's gonna miss out and how hard his life will be. That guy went over 60, let's go do him a favor. What, you didn't get to be good at what you wanted to do and feel will never be happy because of it? No prob, swallow this cyanide.

Yes, we all have flaws, but some are more severe than the others. There is a difference between someone who has a fear of heights and someone who is so paralyzed with fear of 'just living' so much, that it controls his life... Two people meet a bear and both are scared shitless - one runs away, other is frozen in place. Make a guess which one is more defective and is not going to pass his genes forward...

BTW... this is the umpteenth time that you imply - deliberately or not - that I would like to create some sort of system that would actively hunt the poor and the cripple... While I'm flattered, I don't recall implying something like that even once...

Giving people a free choice on the other hand...

So, shall we start going about which are defective and shouldn't be here? Who else do we pick? How about jews? Hey, gruesome, but it works!

Ah yes, what I'm saying and what Nazis were saying - I can see so many similarities... Must be that little anti-semite within me that I suckled with my mother's milk...

6834703

What I'm saying is that in order to 'just live' you are expected to find the time to do dozens of different work and family-related things, plus time to do something that brings you joy...

What I want is to know how some people can do that when I can barely find the time for work + some writing. Hard not to think of yourself as defective when you struggle with basic shit like that, while people you know are somehow able to find the time to work and rise 3 kids.

6835057

You seem to be one of those 'life is the most precious thing' people.

Actually not. I don't believe there is an inherent value in anything beyond what we personally assign to it, and "life for the sake of living" seems pretty dour to me. If a guy's a vegetable, for instance, and the family consents, pull the plug.

Yeah, it does, because the new 'norm' usually implies some form of disability.

But doesn't disability of other causes also qualify as the same? I think you might guess where I'm going with this so I'll address it later on your other comment in favor of another thing I want to specify now. The ideas of dignity and selflessness as applied to a person alone and only him carrying the burden or that denying someone to carry that burden is a selfless act. How can that be when one takes it upon them to make decisions which shape also other people's future?

And either way, yeah, some old people can't even wipe their ass. Others reach 90, die, and never need anyone like that. It's not global, you know.

That's one of the reasons I'm not planning kids - reproduction just to get some free slaves for old years is disgusting as hell.

I'm kinda semi-planning to adopt a kid as a single parent later on, myself. Depends on my future economic status. My view is that I can potentially be a very good parent, and it's best for an orphan to have one than not.

Isn't it possible that there are some people on the other side of the extreme and nothing (or almost nothing) will ever make them feel as if their life has meaning?

You did notice that I pointed out that it's not about finding but making something, right? You assign a value to something, it doesn't come with a pre-set happiness value and your name on the bottom. It's not an actual list that you can go through, though for many people it works like that. I think you'd need to go through a more involved method, and step one would be shifting your mindset on how you'd acquire it. That will probably take you years. To shift your mindset, that is. But it's not like you got anything better to do, is there?

Telling them to 'Just keep looking, so eventually, they'll find it' seems like an excuse made up by the society to feel good about itself.

It's a pretty good advice that works generally. If it doesn't for you, then you change methods first, not throw your hands up. Take it like writing. You are told that 3rd pov is da best. You try and try, and write shit. Do you give up on writing forever or do you give 2nd or 1st POV a shot?

Make a guess which one is more defective and is not going to pass his genes forward...

That entirely depends on the bear and whether it's a brown bear or a black bear.

I think this works as a great parallel but I'm too tired to assign roles and make sense of it right now.

While I'm flattered, I don't recall implying something like that even once...

Yes, yes, I screwed the pooch on this one, repeatedly. I don't mean you WANT to do that to others, I'm trying to show that you wouldn't cast into such positions and metrics other people, yet you eagerly do so to yourself. Look, if a person came up to you and said that we should kill all defective people who miss an arm or two because hands rock, I'm pretty sure you'd introduce him to the pleasure of a Shoryuken. With a small change of the defect and applied only to you, you nod. See?

You are your own Nazi(?), I guess?

Giving people a free choice on the other hand...

That... is the slippery slope. Now, sure, EVERYTHING has a slippery slope. The slippery slope exists everywhere, no idea stands on a perfect level. But the permanence of the decision, the impossibilities of ascertaining if it is the right one, the countless examples of people who tried and regretted it...

Look, a person can definitely attempt to do so. But socially and morally, it would be near impossible to argue for permission or acceptance. It's a state of continuous chance of change VS one of none.

Must be that little anti-semite within me that I suckled with my mother's milk...

See above.

What I'm saying is that in order to 'just live' you are expected to find the time to do dozens of different work and family-related things, plus time to do something that brings you joy...

Man, you don't want to do that, then don't! People go and become monks, for instance, and are happy with that, even though they don't do a typical job or get to raise a family. Stop looking into what others live for and figure out yours.

What I want is to know how some people can do that when I can barely find the time for work + some writing.

I think you're looking at a facade. I don't know anyone who does as well time-wise as you describe. Heck, there are days that are only me working, coming home, eating, heading to bed, and then it's a new day and I head back to work again.

6835057

What I'm saying is that in order to 'just live' you are expected to find the time to do dozens of different work and family-related things, plus time to do something that brings you joy...

That just isn't true. Look outside your window and you'll see hobos who have 24 hours per day to do absolutely nothing. They get free food and clothing, so that isn't a problem. They aren't expected to do anything.

There's no reason why you couldn't have 24 hours per day just to yourself. Everything you waste your time with, it's your choice to do so.

If the life you created is strangling you, maybe it's time for a change. You can form your life in any way you want to, and nobody can stand in your way if you put your mind to it. It's not the world that's restricting you. It's you who's restricting yourself.

Can you describe a way of life that would make you happy? What would it look like? What's preventing you from making that life a reality?

Wow, okay. I should've checked in on this thread earlier.

Reminder to everyone involved to keep level-headed, please. Let's try and avoid proving Godwin's Law multiple times per thread.

6835249
I am NOT calling Huk a nazi or Hitler and I'm not saying he likes their rhetoric even a little bit. I'm doing a re-adjusting of position to show the negativity of ideas as applied to self. I like the guy, I never said he is anything, I'm talking about the ultimate and/or extreme outcome of certain behaviors that usually are taken at face value as near-noble or sacrificing when involving only the self but are considered horrid when applied to others.

6835733
Godwin's Law doesn't require that anyone be called a Nazi or Hitler, just that comparisons to Nazism be made.

And regardless of your current intentions, the comparison has already been made, so let's keep this civil and avoid doing something like that again

6835869 Are these new rules on the forums? I thought Godwin Law is an intrinsic part of any lengthy debate. I'm all for change, but trying to alter the very fabric of reality might be going a step too far.

6835886
Being civil in ADP is not a new rule, no. And maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but I like to think that people are capable of restraining themselves

6835869

And regardless of your current intentions

Yeah, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make me out to be some kind of weasel trying to escape the teacher's wrath, thank you. I already apologized to Huk for the slight miscommunication (criticism of alternate POV opinion vs actual opinion) and explained the reasoning a few good hours before you popped along.

6835927
I'm not insinuating anything, and I apologise if it came across that way. The point, however, remains.

Further discussion on this point, however, should be sent via PM, as it's not relevant to the thread actual.

6835249

Just for the record - I wasn't offended by anything Crimmar said. I was just a little surprised with the comparison, but we're cool

6835133

Actually not. I don't believe there is an inherent value in anything beyond what we personally assign to it, and "life for the sake of living" seems pretty dour to me. If a guy's a vegetable, for instance, and the family consents, pull the plug.

Um... but at the same time you say:

Life is a blink but death is forever. Abandoning life prematurely makes about as much sense in a way as cutting your arm off because you got a cut and it hurts like a bitch. You're gonna die anyway, so why not spend your time in figuring out what you want? [...]

Don't you find that contradictory? The way I interpret it - maybe incorrectly - is that we both have a certain... borderline beyond which, suicide (or, in your example - assisted suicide) becomes acceptable. However, you would only consider that in extreme circumstances (vegetable, maybe permanent paralysis or chronic unbearable pain, etc.) - while for me, the borderline is much broader.

Am I interpreting this right ?

But doesn't disability of other causes also qualify as the same?

It does, and some people that got permanently damaged kill themselves too... The difference is, you may or may not get hit by a car your entire life - probability is minimal - while old age will get to all of us (unless, ironically... we get hit by the car). And while this is true:

And either way, yeah, some old people can't even wipe their ass. Others reach 90, die, and never need anyone like that. It's not global, you know.

It's also a sad truth that no matter how lucky you are, your body will deteriorate to a certain extent. How much will that hit you, is a personal matter, but it will hit you...

The ideas of dignity and selflessness as applied to a person alone and only him carrying the burden or that denying someone to carry that burden is a selfless act. How can that be when one takes it upon them to make decisions which shape also other people's future?

Um... honestly I have no idea what you said here - care to repeat with a bit easier language?

I'm kinda semi-planning to adopt a kid as a single parent later on, myself. Depends on my future economic status. My view is that I can potentially be a very good parent, and it's best for an orphan to have one than not.

Good for you, and I wish you luck (I don't know about how it is in Greece, but over here, adopting a child as a single person is a pain in the ass ), but my view is a complete opposite. I can see how my brother's kids acts and how disruptive and destructive they can be (yeah, I heard the 'not all kids are like that!' story a dozen times, but my experience tells otherwise). I fear it would end up with one of those morbid stories you hear on TV every couple of days...

That said, what I meant there was that it sickens me when I hear that a lot of parents still have this 'I'm making babies because someone will have to take care of me when I'm old!' mindset... They are treating babies as potential slaves... and society is okay with that - this is just sick

It's a pretty good advice that works generally. If it doesn't for you, then you change methods first, not throw your hands up. Take it like writing. You are told that 3rd pov is da best. You try and try, and write shit. Do you give up on writing forever or do you give 2nd or 1st POV a shot?

I can see what you did there, but... If you knew someone who has been trying to become a good writer for the past 32 years and shows no improvement, would you really advise him to keep trying for the next 30 years? Or would you instead tell him the harsh truth - that he'll never become a writer?

I'm not saying people should jump ship at the first failure - that's one extreme, but telling them they should never do it, no matter what - seems like the extreme on the other side of the spectrum. To me, it seems, that we only accept that argument, because for some reason - suicide is still frowned upon by society.

Yes, yes, I screwed the pooch on this one, repeatedly. I don't mean you WANT to do that to others, I'm trying to show that you wouldn't cast into such positions and metrics other people, yet you eagerly do so to yourself. Look, if a person came up to you and said that we should kill all defective people who miss an arm or two because hands rock, I'm pretty sure you'd introduce him to the pleasure of a Shoryuken. With a small change of the defect and applied only to you, you nod. See?

You are your own Nazi(?), I guess?

And, you really don't see the difference between doing something, anything - no matter how gruesome it might be - to your own body vs. doing it to other people by force...? Seriously?

Look, a person can definitely attempt to do so. But socially and morally, it would be near impossible to argue for permission or acceptance. It's a state of continuous chance of change VS one of none.

Don't be so sure about that... In the past it was unthinkable to give the option of euthanasia to anyone, no matter the circumstances - today it is an option in some countries, and the requirements are getting more relaxed every few years. I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point, all people will have to do is sign a form and wait a few weeks...

OF course, it would be better to try to solve the question on 'why' people are in this mindset... but I wouldn't get my hopes up on that. Kind of hypocritical coming from me, huh?

6835176

Can you describe a way of life that would make you happy? What would it look like? What's preventing you from making that life a reality?

Hmm, honestly, no - I can't imagine it. The biggest problem for me is a constant fear of the future, no matter how I look at it, seems bleak as hell. But, even If I would win the lottery tomorrow, and had enough cash for the rest of my life, I don't think it would help all that much... Frankly, when I was thinking about it, I come to the conclusion that it would probably speed up my 'departure' because I could provide paid help for the people that may depend on me in the future.

I guess that's the real question - how do you make your own meaning, when you don't know what you want (I do know what I don't want though)?

6837507

Don't you find that contradictory? The way I interpret it - maybe incorrectly - is that we both have a certain... borderline beyond which, suicide (or, in your example - assisted suicide) becomes acceptable. However, you would only consider that in extreme circumstances (vegetable, maybe permanent paralysis or chronic unbearable pain, etc.) - while for me, the borderline is much broader.

Am I interpreting this right ?

Hmm... To be honest, I haven't thought very deeply on these ideas as they would deserve and I presume my opinion will get refined or change later in some capacity. Still...

I think that the closest circumstance I can relate to as far as the borderline goes is the reasonings of why the death penalty shouldn't be allowed. If someone is in a condition in which specialists say that there is little to no hope of betterment and the person in question (or in case of their... guardian(?)) wishes to put a stop to a situation which is impossible to him, I would understand. Then again, if it was something like "I lost my ability to walk and now I want to die," I don't think... Look, it would have to be a situation where heavy emotional states like this kind of loss are past. I'm kind of a two-three minds about this. You should have freedom to do what you want, but how do you tell that isn't brought by depression or an emotional state that can be worked at, but too much control can be a tyranny, yet also this would end up making more people happy than just gone, and wellbeing should be at the root until wellbeing is no longer possible, but how can you tell mental wellbeing...

It's a whole fucking mess, but I think that wisdom tells us to err at the side of caution.

It's also a sad truth that no matter how lucky you are, your body will deteriorate to a certain extent. How much will that hit you, is a personal matter, but it will hit you...

I already said that entropy gets us all, so I know what you mean. Not just body but mind too might be the one to go. So, where do we stand? I think my way of enduring these possibilities (as well as whetever has occured to me so far in life) is the acceptance that yes, I'm gonna lose. Everything, possibly. Even my mind, who knows? But what can't I lose? I can't lose the fact of the decisions and choices I made my way to complete (and perhaps painful or humiliating) annihilation. I think some might call it "going while knowing you lived a good life" though that isn't exactly what I mean. Pure spite might fit the bill better.

Anyway, my plans for old age so far include growing a beard and looking dapper as fuck. If it all goes downhill, my last resort plans include going to Canada, getting camping gear, heading north, and find me a grizzly to punch. I'll try to win. If I don't, hey, I fought a grizzly at age [ ]! Not bad, even if I lost.

Actually, I think that example is the perfect parallel to how I view my living of life. I get eaten by a grizzly no matter what, but the important thing to me is that I punch it before I go.

Um... honestly I have no idea what you said here - care to repeat with a bit easier language?

Person 1 - "I am selfless. To make it so that you don't have to deal with my shit, Person 2, I'll remove myself from here!"

People - "OMG, so selfless. What a sacrifice!"

Person 2 - "How is it selfless to take a choice that affects me away from me? You decided what makes you feel better or decided you know better than me, didn't ask me, and then call yourself selfless. That isn't selfless, that is selfish!"

I can see what you did there, but... If you knew someone who has been trying to become a good writer for the past 32 years and shows no improvement, would you really advise him to keep trying for the next 30 years? Or would you instead tell him the harsh truth - that he'll never become a writer?

After reading a bit of Stephenie Mayer's "Twilight" I'd have told her she would never be a writer. Shows what I know. She has millions and I got a chair with an ass groove. If I had told her that and she'd listened, where would all those poor millions go? You never know how it will roll around.

Never's a big word. If a guy tries to be a writer, tries for 30 years, then I think he might be doing something wrong. You can learn anything. So, I think the right thing to say would be, "You'll never become a writer like this," and then (preferably before in this hypothetical) figure out what he's doing wrong. (I bet it's that he keeps doing freakin' displaced)

To me, it seems, that we only accept that argument, because for some reason - suicide is still frowned upon by society.

You are responsible for a person's fate. He claims he wants to die. You don't know if he lies or tells the truth, you don't know if he's in a bad place temporarily, you don't know his future prospects, you don't know if he has mental troubles. You can decide to leave the choice to him, and argue that he knows his mind and life best, but considering you still don't know anything, how do you know this is true? You know people can make dumb decisions or make choices they fully regret later. You know people are no good at knowing their own minds or thinking their decisions through. If it wasn't you, but a very different person, would you let him commit suicide at first request or because he tells you he really thought about it?

This isn't like quitting basketball but you might later decide to start playing again in 5 years. It's the point of no-return, and the burden placed on others is too much. Let's suppose you go ahead with or don't; you just stop coming to fimfiction, and all I see is a userpage with the name huk and saying beneath "last time logged ...." This ends with me, for the rest of my life, asking myself if it's on me for not thinking good enough, saying the right words, etc, etc. Maybe the cashier at the place you last stopped will spend her life thinking, "maybe he didn't look well and I didn't pay attention, maybe I should have said something." And all that. The one commiting suicide is... basically like a guy who breaks every glass and china in a store, and then leaves forever leaving others to pick up all the shards and clean up risking to cut themselves.

So yeah, society frowns upon it for some reason.

I fear it would end up with one of those morbid stories you hear on TV every couple of days.

I believe parenting is the main issue. Sure, a kid might have issues, but it's then the parents' job to see specialists and tackle those issues. Parenting is seen a lot as something you just do or you can do in your own way and it doesn't matter, but it's a full time job that takes a lot of dedication. The parent is always responsible.

I was dumb as rocks (full retard) and very selfish and easy to anger as a kid (but only towards people I felt I could be at with safety). I didn't just grow out of it. My mom worked really hard at it.

They are treating babies as potential slaves... and society is okay with that - this is just sick

If you have kids with that sole reasoning, you're a shitty parent, you're correct. I don't know about where you live, but in Greece it's extremely common for children to care for their parents when they're old. The classic family unit includes the grandparents in it a lot, but this is a culture thing where the family in general cares for each other. I mean, babysitting is in general an unknown job at Greece because, tada, the kids grow with the grandparents a lot.

But yeah, you don't have kids for that.

And, you really don't see the difference between doing something, anything - no matter how gruesome it might be - to your own body vs. doing it to other people by force...? Seriously?

Sure. It's worse doing it to other people because there is the absence of choice. But deciding that you yourself are okay with that, should that make it better when it's a derision of your wellbeing?

Yes, there comes up the freedom of choice again, but the permanence of the decision makes it easy to take the side of caution.

I... Let's suppose we take it the other way around. We have found a way to make people immortal and indestructive. Nothing will ever kill them and for all we know they will even survive the end of the universe. This effect is irreversible, no matter what. Is it okay to just let someone do that to himself?

OF course, it would be better to try to solve the question on 'why' people are in this mindset... but I wouldn't get my hopes up on that.

I'm pretty sure that is ongoing. Psychiatry, philosophy, and stuff, right? Find the solution in a long term view, deal with people wanting to off themselves while they're in the most extreme of situations on the short term. But I don't think we're ever gonna get close to "sign a form and wait a few weeks," situation. Perhaps something like "sign a form and a long evaluation by a metric ton of specialists will begin" maybe. I don't see Futurama suicide booths coming up.

how do you make your own meaning, when you don't know what you want

Choose. Choose what you want.

Okay, exercise. Take as long as you need, months or years, but find the answer to this. "Time will erase everything, entropy will win, at the end no one will remember you." With all this being true, in order to pass you have to find what would make life viable instead of shooting ourselves in the mouth the moment we become sentient. Go.

6837587

Hmm, honestly, no - I can't imagine it.

Can you imagine it for others? What makes you different from others?

The biggest problem for me is a constant fear of the future, no matter how I look at it, seems bleak as hell.

What if you traveled 100 years into the past and you'd know exactly what the future entails? Would that be alright with you?

it would probably speed up my 'departure' because I could provide paid help for the people that may depend on me in the future.

Is there a difference between giving a $100 to a homeless person now and giving a $100 to some homeless person 100 years from now? If you chose now, the one in the future won't get it. And if you wait, the current one won't get the $100. If you donate all your money now or 100 years from now, it makes no difference. You only help different people, that's all.

how do you make your own meaning, when you don't know what you want

There you have it. You just found your meaning of life. Your goal in life is to find the things that you like.

(I do know what I don't want though)?

And the subgoal of your life is to avoid or fix the things you don't like.

6837587

even survive the end of the universe

That's like my worst nightmare.

6838088
You tagged me twice there and Huk none at all, buddy.

6837507

You tagged me twice there and Huk none at all, buddy.

My bad. It won't happen again.

Sorry, this comes so late...

6837587

You should have freedom to do what you want, but how do you tell that isn't brought by depression or an emotional state that can be worked at, but too much control can be a tyranny, yet also this would end up making more people happy than just gone, and wellbeing should be at the root until wellbeing is no longer possible, but how can you tell mental wellbeing...

It's a whole fucking mess, but I think that wisdom tells us to err at the side of caution.

... the problem I have with this way of thinking is that, at least for the time being, if you say that you're contemplating ending your existence, you'll ALWAYS be labeled either as depressed or mentally ill. And if you're unlucky, our great society will strip you from all your rights and place you for an involuntary psychiatric evaluation for anywhere from 72 hours, to... months. As an added bonus, depending on where you live - you may end up labeled for life and loos certain rights, because again - it's better safe than sorry...

Honestly, if I were to name one thing that makes me REALLY depressed is this way of thinking...

Anyway, my plans for old age so far include growing a beard and looking dapper as fuck. If it all goes downhill, my last resort plans include going to Canada, getting camping gear, heading north, and find me a grizzly to punch. I'll try to win. If I don't, hey, I fought a grizzly at age [ ]! Not bad, even if I lost.

Actually, I think that example is the perfect parallel to how I view my living of life. I get eaten by a grizzly no matter what, but the important thing to me is that I punch it before I go.

Fan of Lynn Rogers ?

Person 2 - "How is it selfless to take a choice that affects me away from me? You decided what makes you feel better or decided you know better than me, didn't ask me, and then call yourself selfless. That isn't selfless, that is selfish!"

Ah, now I see... Let me paste you something as an answer:

If we define selfishness like the person 2 from your example did, then both people are selfish in their own way. The question is, why one person should be frowned upon for making a choice (suicide), while the other should be praised for it (leaving the burden of caring for him on his family)? In the end, they'll both die, but only one of them will be damned by the family and society... Isn't that a hypocrisy?

If it wasn't you, but a very different person, would you let him commit suicide at first request or because he tells you he really thought about it?

I would want to know the reasons first to establish why he wants to die. If he were a teenager that got a bad grade in school or his girlfriend dumped him or other things like that, I would try to stop him (talk him out of it). On the other hand, if his reasons were valid, logical and permanent enough... I would try not to interfere, UNLESS I could provide some help that could REALLY make a change.

Let's suppose you go ahead with or don't; you just stop coming to fimfiction, and all I see is a userpage with the name huk and saying beneath "last time logged ...." This ends with me, for the rest of my life, asking myself if it's on me for not thinking good enough, saying the right words, etc, etc. Maybe the cashier at the place you last stopped will spend her life thinking, "maybe he didn't look well and I didn't pay attention, maybe I should have said something." And all that.

... you do realize that this is emotional blackmail, right ? And that it pretty much validates my point from the first post:

He is not making friends on purpose so that when he goes, the impact on people will be minimized - same with family, he's keeping them all at the distance

If everyone would be so 'devastated' once they learn what you did, then the logical course of action (aside from not committing suicide, that is) would be to limit the number of people to the minimum...

The one commiting suicide is... basically like a guy who breaks every glass and china in a store, and then leaves forever leaving others to pick up all the shards and clean up risking to cut themselves.

As someone who has actually gone through all this, I can tell you that this argument is overblown... Yes, some people blame themselves, but most don't give a bloody fuck unless it's their family member. And even then, from my experience, it's not as dramatic as some people would like you to think. I pretty much shrugged the damn thing off after a week or two, so did my brother, only my mom still have painful flashbacks, but not for the reasons most people would think... Whether cutting my father from the rope messed me up is another question, but I was different even before he decided that breathing wasn't for him, so I doubt it...

I believe parenting is the main issue. Sure, a kid might have issues, but it's then the parents' job to see specialists and tackle those issues. Parenting is seen a lot as something you just do or you can do in your own way and it doesn't matter, but it's a full time job that takes a lot of dedication. The parent is always responsible.

I was dumb as rocks (full retard) and very selfish and easy to anger as a kid (but only towards people I felt I could be at with safety). I didn't just grow out of it. My mom worked really hard at it.

Um... I think you misunderstood... What I meant was, that if I would ever have a child, I fear it would end up in the hospital, as yet another example of 'parent beat his crying son to death.' Specialists may help when the child os of a certain age, yes - but some toddlers will just cry, cry and cry for the first few month/years and there is nothing you can do about it (my brother learned that the hard way). I doubt I could handle that.

If you have kids with that sole reasoning, you're a shitty parent, you're correct. I don't know about where you live, but in Greece it's extremely common for children to care for their parents when they're old. The classic family unit includes the grandparents in it a lot, but this is a culture thing where the family in general cares for each other. I mean, babysitting is in general an unknown job at Greece because, tada, the kids grow with the grandparents a lot.

But yeah, you don't have kids for that.

It's the same over here... I don't mean this is the only reason some people have kids, but this is ONE of the reasons... This must be the only thing I think the USA does better than Europe.

I... Let's suppose we take it the other way around. We have found a way to make people immortal and indestructive. Nothing will ever kill them and for all we know they will even survive the end of the universe. This effect is irreversible, no matter what. Is it okay to just let someone do that to himself?

There is a major flaw in that logic because we're all going to die eventually, so it's hardly comparable. That said... Would I try to talk him out of it? You bet. Would I try to stop him by locking him up and denying him his fundamental rights and even kill him at one point because 'he must be an idiot for trying to live forever'? No way in hell! In the end, I would respect his choice.

Okay, exercise. Take as long as you need, months or years, but find the answer to this. "Time will erase everything, entropy will win, at the end no one will remember you." With all this being true, in order to pass you have to find what would make life viable instead of shooting ourselves in the mouth the moment we become sentient. Go.

Oh, I'm looking, just not finding anything...

6838088

Can you imagine it for others? What makes you different from others?

We both know, everybody is different... But if you're asking what makes me different from the people that seem happy? The biggest reason I noticed is that they don't seem to dwell much on things around them until one of those things bits them in the ass... For example, most of the society seems to be okay with 'better safe than sorry' approach - until there is a divorce, and the father suddenly learns that his wife claims he molested their child. Since it's 'better safe than sorry' - his contact with the child is automatically denied until the case can be cleared up... But again, since 'child's good is paramount' (or in other words - since the adult is expendable), the court often prefer to play it safe, and father is fucked, even if there is no compelling evidence against him.

Most people I spoke with, are A-OK with this approach... until they're the ones fighting to clear their name, but then it's too late...

Yes, ignorance is bliss, I guess... but it doesn't work for me (tried it, and failed - I'm not capable to just 'don't give a fuck').

What if you traveled 100 years into the past and you'd know exactly what the future entails? Would that be alright with you?

No. Even if I had a magic 8-ball that would allow me to see what will happen, I don't think it would help much... The example of the problem is what I wrote above... from my perspective, our society is messed up, and is going to get even messier with time. That alone, is enough to make me depressed, but it's not like I have much say in that is it?

And hell, who knows - maybe SJW's approach is correct ? But in that case, the faster I remove myself from this world, the better.

Is there a difference between giving a $100 to a homeless person now and giving a $100 to some homeless person 100 years from now? If you chose now, the one in the future won't get it. And if you wait, the current one won't get the $100. If you donate all your money now or 100 years from now, it makes no difference. You only help different people, that's all.

I'm not exactly sure what that anecdote was meant to convey...

There you have it. You just found your meaning of life. Your goal in life is to find the things that you like. And the subgoal of your life is to avoid or fix the things you don't like.

Hmm, it's that simple, huh? Maybe I should make a bucket list...

6840856

if you say that you're contemplating ending your existence, you'll ALWAYS be labeled either as depressed or mentally ill.

Unless you're living a torturous existence due to a disease or something else, can you blame them?

As an added bonus, depending on where you live - you may end up labeled for life and loos certain rights, because again - it's better safe than sorry...

Honestly, if I were to name one thing that makes me REALLY depressed is this way of thinking...

What would be a better way of thinking? You touch on that later on as well with the parent example, but what is the better way? If a person wants to commit suicide for trivial reasons, like failing school, you said yourself that you'd stop them. What is a reason that is non-trivial enough that argues in favor of giving up all of existence well enough that does out with the "keep safe" system?

In the end, they'll both die, but only one of them will be damned by the family and society... Isn't that a hypocrisy?

No, because in the setting I described, Person 1 takes it upon himself to make the decision for Person 2 without asking for their input or desire. Remember that we're talking about the question of whether it is 'kind and selfless' to rid someone else of the burden of caring for you.

On the other hand, if his reasons were valid, logical and permanent enough... I would try not to interfere, UNLESS I could provide some help that could REALLY make a change.

Yet the only permanence is the one of death. Life always brings with it a chance of change, and just because you don't have an answer now doesn't mean you won't tomorrow.

... you do realize that this is emotional blackmail, right ? And that it pretty much validates my point from the first post:

Wrong setting. I'm partly answering the question of why suicide is frowned upon socially. Not telling you not to kill yourself because it will make me feel bad.

Besides, I only used myself as an example. If this really happened, I'd be confident that I did my best. Regret doesn't fit into my personal mindset.

If everyone would be so 'devastated' once they learn what you did, then the logical course of action (aside from not committing suicide, that is) would be to limit the number of people to the minimum...

Which is a measure of enablement and would potentially increase the likelihood of suicide due to the causes of isolation.

Whether cutting my father from the rope messed me up is another question, but I was different even before he decided that breathing wasn't for him, so I doubt it...

We're molded by our experiences, you were certainly impacted by that. The reasoning you were different before that seems to me like post-experience retcon and memory alteration. I highly doubt you were some kinda special boy at age 9 or before that had such a lax view of death. More likely that the experience shaped you up like that in order to accommodate what you went through and normalize it. This is something that you should definetely bring up with a specialist, even if (and especially because) you don't feel so shaken about it.

I doubt I could handle that.

So far, just from the little we talked, it seems to me that you lack the impulsive nature to do so. Still, you need to figure out if you want to have something rather than think why you shouldn't have something.

This must be the only thing I think the USA does better than Europe.

I disagree but that's almost certainly because of different family experiences. Admittedly, this is something that should be decided on single case basis rather than go with tradition or expectations.

In the end, I would respect his choice.

Maybe, but even so you would try your damnest to change his opinion. And you're right that this is hardly comparable because death is the absolute permanence. Someone in the case of immortality might still claim that there could be something that will allow him to remove it in the future or something we haven't thought of kills him. These hopes do not exist in death.

Oh, I'm looking, just not finding anything...

I'm not telling you to present something like, "collecting porcelain unicorn figures makes life worthwhile!" I'm talking about a... view, a mindset, a way of values.

Most people I spoke with, are A-OK with this approach... until they're the ones fighting to clear their name, but then it's too late...

Sometimes you make me think that the main problem that you see in the world is that you don't want to live in one that isn't 100% perfect or almost, or that you aren't a God that can make instant changes.

6840856

they don't seem to dwell much on things

Did you know that dwelling on things is one of the main causes of depression?

our society is messed up, and is going to get even messier with time.

What if you were transported in another world (Equestria, for instance) where everypony would live in harmony. Would that alleviate your worries?

I'm not exactly sure what that anecdote was meant to convey

If you had a lot of money, you'd want to die so that that money could help people. What I tried to say was that it doesn't matter if that money would help people 100 years later. Having loads of money is not reason enough to die.

Hmm, it's that simple, huh? Maybe I should make a bucket list...

Yes, you should. After all, it's your goal in life.

6840876
6841059

Again, sorry for the late reply... Allow me to address just one point, both of you seems to be making:

Crimmar:
Sometimes you make me think that the main problem that you see in the world is that you don't want to live in one that isn't 100% perfect or almost, or that you aren't a God that can make instant changes.

Bad Dragon:
Did you know that dwelling on things is one of the main causes of depression?

OK... Here is something for you. I know it's a bit long, but please, read this if you dare:

https://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/-What-the-hell-did-you-do-to-my-daughter-He-was-accused-of-a-crime-he-swore-he-never-committed-she-believed-her-4-year-old_171055137

Tell me... how, should I react to such shit, according to you? How do you react? Don't give a damn? Shrug it off? Tell the guy from the article 'Oh, sorry, but you know... it was for the greater good' or 'Hey, in the end, it turned out OK, so what's the problem'? I'm really curious, how do you process the above, or this:

https://www.unilad.co.uk/news/man-killed-himself-after-false-rape-claim-despite-texts-that-proved-his-innocence/

?

No, I have no illusions, I don't expect a perfect world. Even if we ever reach Star Trek's level of technology, eliminate hunger, most disease, and other crap, bad things will still happen. I get it... What scares me is that a good part of society apparently wants the 'good old times' back for certain crimes, where it was guilty until proven innocent. And all that with the 'for the greater good!' label... You would have thought that the 'Salem witch trials,' 'Inquisition,' and 'Burning of Heretics' thought us something, but apparently not...

So, yeah - I'm overthinking stuff, and it makes me think that I want out of this crazy place... What should I do? Turn off the TV, cut off the net and stop reading the news? Pretend this shit is not happening? Just don't give a damn? Or ignore it, because the probability of that happening to me are quite low? What do you propose, because honestly, I don't know...

Ignorance really seems like a goddamn bliss...

6843662

What scares me is that a good part of society apparently wants the 'good old times' back for certain crimes, where it was guilty until proven innocent.

The society is getting better with time. In the old days, people wouldn't even ask questions. They would just straight up murder the accused. Things are better than they used to be.

What should I do? Turn off the TV, cut off the net and stop reading the news? Pretend this shit is not happening? Just don't give a damn? Or ignore it, because the probability of that happening to me are quite low?

Yes, you should do all of the above.

The people who were wronged in the articles you posted had no agency and couldn't help themselves. But you can. And that's what I find tragic. Objectively, you have a 'perfect' life. But instead of enjoying it to the fullest you're wasting it, worrying about the things you can't affect and don't affect you. Now that's a tragedy.

Yes, bad things happen, but you shouldn't try to counter them by introducing more bad into your life. Instead, you should counter it by filling your life with good. That's what you should be doing to bring some light onto this world.

6843687

The upvotes next to your post tells me that people seem to agree with you... Interesting, yet scary at the same time (from my perspective, anyway).

Thank you for providing your perspective. I would be lying if I said I understand or agree with it, and I don't think I'm capable of just 'not giving a damn,' but I may as well try.

In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter all that much - at worse, I'm going to kick the bucket in misery, and the world will just keep spinning. I don't know why, but I find that thought... comforting.

Anyway, thanks for your time, and the story - it was an... interesting read .

6845329
Just a clarification, but Bad Dragon didn't say "don't give a damn." He said to step back and away from those things worrying you.

Ignorance is a bliss and knowledge is a burden. Compare it to a guy who drives his car. An 'ignorant' one will do it with no care in the world because he doesn't know how easy an accident is, how probable, how others actions reduce his own chances of making it home alive, how his habit of doing rolling stops instead of actual stops worsen them, what driving habits are dangerous but have been accepted as normal, etc, etc.

A knowledgable person knows all these things. He, in turn, has two options. Either keep driving and doing what he can to increase his chances of not having an accident due to those conditions and perhaps spreading safer driving habits a bit or his anxiety and worry over those driving conditions that exist stop him from driving and turn him to other methods of travel, like mass transit.

The trick here is that both those choices are legitimate and equal. You can choose and do whichever you want to do and none makes you lesser. If your anxiety is too much, so much worsened by what you know, then by definition it might be better off for you not to drive. Does that mean that it would be better off for you not to know, to be ignorant, and had kept driving? No, it would just add one more unreliable driver to the world. Does it mean you should lock yourself at home? No, it means you work with what you know and make alternate decisions.

In your case, knowledge here is a... paralysing agent, so to speak. You can't 'drive' with that burden, so it's better off to take a step back and confront the situation otherwise. If it worsens your personal life and you feel you can't do anything about it, then stop immersing yourself in it. It doesn't mean "stop giving a damn," it means work with what you have. But it's not a burden entirely, because it gives you a perspective of what you don't want to be, what makes it worse for you, and you know what to avoid.

At the current level you have your own problems so stop immersing yourself in world problems that you believe can't affect. Settle yourself, figure yourself out, and know that at a later date you might be equipped enough and solid in your position that you might be able to add your own little drop of help, if that is what you wish to do, later on.

The major point, the one thing you need to work on, is yourself and yourself entirely. Figure yourself out. What do you want and how do you fix yourself so that you can be content? Ignore the world for now. You can't help it when you can't help yourself. You have been given some advice. Make your life's goal to figure out what your life is about or what makes you happy. You have a purpose that you can assign to yourself and with it completed you will only be better off. Then, you move from there.

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The major point, the one thing you need to work on, is yourself and yourself entirely. Figure yourself out. What do you want and how do you fix yourself so that you can be content?

I really didn't want to comment in this thread, but this! The way Huk is talking reminds me of myself when my life was in a really dark place. It's a snowball effect where the inability to change one's own life leads one to keep focusing on how insurmountable the problems of the world feel (instead of the opposite, that any problem can be resolved with enough time, work, brains, teamwork, and effort). And as I began to fix my life, this type of thinking naturally went away.

Huk, list all the things that you want out of YOUR life. So no talking about the world or other people that you can't control. Only you and your own life. And feel free to be as unfiltered as you want about what you want out of *your own *life. Make it as vague or detailed as you want. As an example, here is just some of what I want/wanted out of my life.

1. Marry a girl who is my best friend and I can be completely open around
2. Complete my novel
3. Heal my many soft-tissue injuries

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I think... I know what you're both saying, but for me, this seems to work like a rollercoaster - there are months when I'm focused on something else, and I don't care about the 'bad stuff.' And then, there are months when I can't stop thinking about things like the ones I linked above, and the fact that there is nothing I can do to change anything makes me mad... Maybe Crimmar is right and I should get my head checked out, or something...

However, I'm writing this because I need clarification on one thing:

Crimmar:
The major point, the one thing you need to work on, is yourself and yourself entirely. Figure yourself out. What do you want and how do you fix yourself so that you can be content?

Deep:
Huk, list all the things that you want out of YOUR life. So no talking about the world or other people that you can't control. Only you and your own life. And feel free to be as unfiltered as you want about what you want out of *your own *life. Make it as vague or detailed as you want.

How exactly do you separate working on yourself and setting your goals, from the rest of the world? Or maybe let me ask it this way... one of you want to have a spouse, the other wants to adopt a child... those are your goals. Before you put them on your bucket lists, did you ask yourself this:

1. Do I have the means to support spouse/child?
2. Am I good enough so that my spouse/child will be able to depend on me in the time of need?
3. Will I be willing/prepared to sacrifice myself and my life, if my spouse/child will need it?

All the above question depends on the world around you, not just yourself - how do you separate one from the other? Or are you suggesting we should go with: 'Let's get a spouse/child/whatever first and then let's try to figure it out!' approach ?

6847870

How exactly do you separate working on yourself and setting your goals, from the rest of the world?

I take the questions that you propose (and yes, I've thought of them beforehand and way more than just those three you put here), figure out the answers, and then work towards those answers. The thing is, I can't change the world but I can change myself and my position within that world, so I work within the parameters that I have control over. To go over each one:

Do I have the means to support spouse/child?

In my case, not entirely yet. So, I need to fix this first. Step one is to get rid of all debts I have, like utilities, banks, etc. Then I need to increase my salary, which is why I'm doing my best to increase my skillset, be more important within my workplace, and save as much as I can. This is why I'm going for it in the future and not now, hoping in a few years I'll be in a better place. If something happens, and I lose my job or something, well fuck it, I'll find another one.

Am I good enough so that my spouse/child will be able to depend on me in the time of need?

Self-development is an important part of my lifestyle. I am slowly getting myself educated on stuff that I'd need to know, like illnesses, care, how to help the child build healthy habits, diet, etc, etc. I'm also doing my best to build a support network, so I'm being more social than usual, building up a rapport with more people and all that. Above all, everything like this makes me more confident and imbues me with a more firm resolution of what an important task I'm trying to undertake. So the answer is yes, and if I'm not at one point, then I'll make myself better. Am I going to be perfect? Nah. Who the fuck ever was, to have the conceit that I will be the first one to be?

Will I be willing/prepared to sacrifice myself and my life, if my spouse/child will need it?

I don't see how the world interferes in this since this is wholly personal choice, but the answer's obviously yes, since it would obviously mean sacrificing a ton of time at the very least. The point would be to stop being about doing things for me but doing it about the child. Which, the way I see it, doesn't mean I become a non-entity. I'll be forced to grow in ways they haven't probably occurred to me along with the kid. I don't stop living, I start living a different life.

See, it's the exact same answer as to your own problems. It always is. Find out what you want. Work towards it. Fix what you can, do the best that you can do with what you cannot. Keep moving, keep being better, don't get paralyzed. If you fail or it becomes too hard, get a breather and then get back up again.

An important thing to remember is that we don't have the solutions to everything. We can't tell if it will all turn out fine. And that's okay!

And then, there are months when I can't stop thinking about things like the ones I linked above, and the fact that there is nothing I can do to change anything makes me mad...

Lawyers who feel the same way work for free to help people who get shafted. People work as volunteers. Start charities. Become police officers, firemen, doctors, etc, etc. Get into politics and do what they can. There's literally a fuckton of possibilities of what you can do to make the world a better place, even if you only decide to impart a small amount of your time. Heck, sign up as a donor for marrow, blood, organs, and you already helped. Be a voluntary fireman. Take emt classes. I'm telling you, man, a *fuckton*!

If you feel so upset about those issues, have you ever thought about adding a small change to them? There is always something that you can do, but much like everything you probably won't be able to do anything in an instant. It all takes work, and years of preparation. You're not superman or god to appear somewhere and change things or save people, no one is.

So, again. It's pretty simple.

You figure out what you want.

Then you work towards it.

That's it.

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Crimmar's answer is 100% spot on (and much more detailed than mine would've been).

Huk, make a list of what you want out of life and begin working towards it. If you list what you want on here then we might be able to help or at least provide some direction (such as good resources).

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OK, guys, I think I see your point, and... need to rethink some things...

Thanks for all the info and your perspective...

6850586
No problem! Feel free to contact us or anyone else in the future.

Sounds like you're having suicidal ideations. You should speak to someone.

6885557 How do you know he's not just trying to stay organized?

Would you want your cat to starve to death when you die? No? Well, maybe you should start planning for your own death today, no?

6885557

Ha! Have you ever tried talking with someone about those things? I have, and it wasn't pretty. People don't want to hear such... morbid thoughts.

But, worry not! I'm talking to my cat all the time, so... that counts for something! ... right ?

6885623

Oh, don't worry - I told my cat she can eat me if I kick the bucket. That's like food for... a month or more!

Although... I could swear, she's been giving me this weird stare and licking her lips every since...

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People don't want to hear such... morbid thoughts.

I like hearing morbid thoughts.

I told my cat she can eat me

Does your cat have plenty of water available? Flesh goes down easier if you have some water to wash it down the throat with.

You should fill up the bath or something before you die. That should last a cat for a while.

Oh, and it probably wouldn't hurt if the cat had a way out of the house after it's done sucking your brains through your eye sockets.

I'm talking to my cat all the time

Do you do that for your's sake or do you believe the cat can understand any of it?

6891534

I like hearing morbid thoughts.

That's the beauty of the internet... unfortunately doesn't work too well with real-life people, especially family. Kind of funny, that every 'expert' tells you to talk with someone, but when you try, people either freak out and want to place you in a loony bin, or don't take you seriously.

As for my cat... I think she's dead She went outside a week ago and didn't come back, I fear the worst...

6900514 I've seen it a couple of times. People talk to their families about their suicide tendencies and suddenly everything changes. From that moment on, they're constantly being watched. People call them regularly to check up on them. They get covered in this big vale of distrust.

The thing about words is, you can't really take them back. You can't undo things.

I think it's much easier to talk to complete strangers than family members. There's actually a site for that where you can talk to strangers about your morbid thoughts: https://www.7cups.com/

As for your cat, did you hang the missing cat posters? Maybe it's time for you to change your profile picture to:

in honor of your ex-cat.

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Not odd per se, if I knew his intentions - indeed, it's perfectly logical from that perspective - but certainly worrying, since it would indicate that rather undesirable intention.

6833068
Well yes. Do you know what's a worse trap? Death! You can't go back on it any more than you can climb out of a black hole. So it should always be literally the last option, like any other option that invalidates all others.

I'm not going to say there's nothing wrong with you - if that was the case, you wouldn't feel this way all the time. But there are other ways to fix that than death, ways that can only work when you're alive. It's common sense to use the methods that don't invalidate each other first. Having a job, a family, or even friends aren't necessary even per se (although I do think that you particularly would not do well all alone).