You know what I'm talking about.

"This Unicorn knows a strong spell..."
"This Pegasus isn't completely useless in the air..."
"This Earth Pony is strong enough to justify not having wings..."

"...SO IT'S A SUE! A SUE! A SUE! Sue is a code word that means strong character, right? I think that's what it means. Anyway, I only like stories with generic pathetic doormat OCs for protagonists. Or canon characters, I'm ok with them too."

5873064 No, Sue is codeword for characters with no flaws that everyone likes in story but out of story everyone hates, AKA badly written, unrealistic and boring ones.

5873081 I know what Sue means, I was completing the quote I was using to illustrate the flaws in the "All strong characters are Sues! ...That's what Sue means, right?" school of thought.

Being powerful isn't a Sue trait, and neither is being so powerful that you constantly have to be worfed or written out of the story. Being so powerful it eclipses the other characters isn't a sue trait, either. I already know that the Mary Sue Classic is the perfect idealized character with no faults or flaws, and the Black Hole Sue (Or as some would put it, the REAL sue, since a perfect character can still be made into a funny and likable one but a BHS can't) is a character that may or may not seem like a Sue, but has that "Sue Aura" that makes characters treat her special anyway.

5873081 That's not really true. Sue, or Mary Sue, is code not for a flawless character, but for a story that is essentially just insubstantial self-indulgent fluff about an original character (whatever attributes they may have).

The Sue is determined by the author's attitude and motivation for writing, not by the perfection of a character. Giving a character flaws just to make them obviously flawed while the entire plot of the story revolves around them being shown off in the spotlight anyway still results in just as bad a Mary Sue.

5873064 Actually, in my experience, people who complain that people complain about sues are the ones who either write sues and/or do not understand what a sue is.

5873064 I'd like to add my two bits to say that the people who hate sues may also have sues themselves or have a different idea of a good character. As far as I know, most of them don't even know how to develop a character properly.

5873064
"Sue" really is, or was until very recent times, flung around on this site until it had no meaning.

For me, a Sue isn't a powerful or even a perfect character; both imply some likability. For me, a Sue is a character who not only faces no conflict or development, but has no backstory to even justify why said character has no conflict or development.

A true "Mary Sue" is a character that 1) has no significant flaws, 2) never faces real conflict, and 3) is someone that warps the entire story around them. The story and other characters exist to demonstrate how much superior and more loved the Mary Sue character is, instead of the Mary Sue existing to serve the story. Canon characters are invariably OOC, and the world bends to the will of the Sue so far that she is able to completely master every conflict without the slightest risk of failure.

There are numerous versions of the Sue, depending on the effect the author is trying to evoke, the most common being the Sympathy Sue, and the Purity Sue -- the former is a Sue that has been the victim of misfortune through no fault of their own, and may as well have a great big "FEEL SORRY FOR ME" sign stapled to their forehead; and the latter exists to be an untouchable, incorruptible avatar of the author's ideals.

5873409

5873064

A character that functions with no emotional flaws or magical limits, is fully aware of their power and how to control it, and the story bends to their will without even trying.

A boring character with no real conflict or charisma outside of the one that is artificially inserted by making characters like him/her out of nowhere.

A character that is in essence written first without the author understanding what kind of story that author wants to tell.

Basically it is a character crated to live out the fantasies of a shallow and pathetic human being that believes that they deserved everything.

That is a true sue.

In fact I will do us all a favor.

5873293

I basically created a "Hero of Another Story" type of character. While badass, he basically lives with no fame and very little fortune.

I created him basically with the movie. "Heroes for Sale" in mind.

Has no direct interaction with the Mane-Six, and has been doing the whole killing monsters and investigating crimes thing ever since 12 years before the show.

All of his stories are about the personal cost of heroism, and the true meaning behind "Sacrifice and Bravery".

(He does all of the dangerous suicidal work without a single ounce of credit or praise.)

So yeah, it's up to you if the character crap or not.

5875018 So... Jim Miller's OC, Starlight Glimmer?

5873293 You think a Sue is a type of story? Uh...

You know what? Just saying "Sue" isn't good enough any more, too many people throw the word around without understanding what the word means. What happens when too many people have conflicting definitons of the word? We stop using the now-useless word, and start using new words that mean what they're supposed to mean. Besides, the original Mary Sue word comes from an old-ass Star Trek fanzine that considers "She's unrealistically beautiful, half-Vulcan, she dresses sexily, and she dies in the end" the be-all and end-all of Sueism, which is hardly the case. From now on, here's what these words mean:

Mary Sue="I'm an idiot! Don't give anything I say any more weight than you'd give to a youtube comment! I use this word because I learned it on TvTropes, and like the bastard child of a monkey, parrot, and dumbass, I copied it! Hell, I probably think a Sue is determined by a number gained from a crappy litmus test, rather than a symptom of poor writing skills that could affect any character regardless of said character's personality or skill!"
Gary Stu="This male character is too strong for my tastes, don't give my words any more weight than you'd give to an old fart claiming rock is the devil and anything made after 1970 is just noise!"
Boringly flawless character=Boringly flawless character
Boringly perfect character=Boringly perfect character
The characters fall in love with him for no reason=The characters fall in love with him for no reason
Edgy="Three edgy five me! Ha, I'm such a funnyman. I don't like dark stuff, I only like """comfy""" greentexts on 4chan. Don't take me seriously, ok?"
Dark for the sake of being dark=Dark for the sake of being dark, rather than to advance the plot, build the world, show a character's character, etc.
Trying too hard="Don't take me seriously, because I'm stupid!"
Grimdark(See: WH40K)=Grimdark
Grimderp(When someone tries to be grimdark and it falls flat on its face, looking about as believable and intimidating as Owain from Fire Emblem: Awakening)=Grimderp
So dark it damages the story's logic(Like an evil cult operating in Ponyville for 4 years and claiming 20,000 victims and sacrificing their souls to some demon. You really think nopony would notice 20,000 missing pony cases in Ponyville over the course of four years?)=So dark it damages the story's logic
Bland character=Bland character
Cliche character="If I don't specify which cliche, don't take me seriously!"
Cliche story="If I don't specify which cliche, don't take me seriously!"
Wish-fulfillment story="If I don't explain how it's a wish fulfillment story in the same comment as the one where I accuse the story of being pure wish-fulfillment, do not take me seriously!"
Mary Tzu=Mary Tzu (This concept is actually specific enough to be a commonly-used phrase. It's the thing where a character is a "Tactical genius", and is therefore able to predict things you couldn't possibly predict with the amount of information at hand. A MMA fighter figuring out your stance and combos from blocking a few punches is fine, a general having a backup plan for what to do if a tornado just happens to strike the enemy base in Magical Tornado Plains is fine, but General Mary Tzu's entire plan for taking Everyellow Beach relying on some unknown soldier deciding to have a change of heart and shoot his boss for no reason other than plot while a tornado just happens to strike the enemy base and wipe out their supply lines and snipers in the process, having no backup plans to speak of, and winning and saying "Just as planned" despite that massive, stupid, and massively stupid gamble... You ever heard of a "Gambit Roulette"? Basically that, but treated like it's an ability that can just be used on command, an ability achieved because the tactician in question is "Just that good", rather than due to pure dumb luck or the character being prepared for everything, even extremely unlikely events that only happen because plot)
Unrealistically beautiful=Unrealistically beautiful
Overpowered character=Overpowered character
Sympathetic Sue=Sympathetic Sue (That thing where a writer thinks the only way to make a character deep, liked, or tough is to pile as much misfortune and tragedy and darkness onto the character/the character's backstory as possible, and does this to a character you're supposed to like, feel sorry for, and root for. Said tragedies are typically spoken as if they're evidence of toughness, like "My parents died in a plane crash when I was 2 and I blame myself for some reason, I was entered into a super soldier program and sent to kill demons, all my friends died in action, I am the last Super Soldier, and I now live on the run, fleeing my country's evil government! You think your life sucks? Think again! Respect me for having such a sad backstory, damn you!" Only counts as such if it falls flat: The extremely dark backstories of Sasuke Uchiha or Sai work in Naruto's world and contribute to who the characters are, but when tragedies are clearly just thrown there as a writing shortcut, it falls flat.)
Wish-fulfillment character=Wish-fulfillment character
Protagonist-centered Morality(That thing where something that'd be unforgivably evil for a villain to do is treated like it's perfectly fine for the character in question to do, like brainwashing friends with mind-control spells on purpose because free thought and better ideas were stopping her from having her way)=Protagonist-centered Morality
That thing where a character's mere presence distorts reality around her, altering the thoughts, actions, and characterizations of characters around her. That thing where the character's presence does things like causing Sasuke to adopt and protect her, Harry to loudly declare her the most gorgeous thing he's ever seen and act like a love-struck puppy, Draco to act nice in public for her or even get over his blood supremacy beliefs to please her, Twilight to be dumber and weaker than her, Jotaro to want her and not find her annoying and act like a tiny boy with a childish crush on her, Superman to consider her purer and nicer than him, Batman to want to adopt and train her on the spot, and so on. She will be forgiven for any and all mistakes, even if they're big, stupid, and potentially FUBAR-causing, she will NEVER have to truly suffer the consequences of her actions, be they law-breaking, insulting a friend you haven't earned the right to insult or going too far, murder, rape, torture, theft, genocide, cheating on your lover, or taking a dump on somepony's front lawn=Black Hole Sue.

5877157

1. Actually Starlight Glimmer isn't a Mary-Sue because given the right story and on her own without the Mane-Six she works, it's just that the writers of MLP aren't skilled enough to work with her character type when she is interacting with Twilight in a non antagonistic fashion.

2. I have no f#^king idea who Jim Miller is.

5877215

1. Perhaps, in another story, in another world, where going on one of the biggest and longest childish temper tantrums ever against the concepts of individuality, free thought, talent, and ability themselves is the normal response to having your best and only friend move away from you... Sure, she could be a great character. Maybe in an M-rated parody of a fantasy series, where all villains have hilariously flimsy motivations for being evil. In a comedic world where her level of bad character-ness is the norm and bad morals are intentional and done for comedic effect, she wouldn't be such a massive outlier that warps reality so it'll work like one of those shows. In MLP:FIM, she is a disgustingly blatant Black Hole Sue. In a show that functions like the lovechild of Phineas And Ferb, Dave The Barbarian, and Rick and Morty, she would be one of the funniest characters in the whole show. Because in a show like that, you could make the argument that she's SUPPOSED to be the unlikable sociopathic Brian Griffin-tier turd she is, and that makes her a funny character that also becomes endearing because while we all remember being spaghetti-pocketed nervous losers at one point in our lives, we never went Full Glimmer, so we can laugh at the character that did. A sociopathic wizard that doesn't understand things like ethics or morals or "DON'T USE MAGIC ON YOUR FRIENDS AT THE FIRST SIGN OF TROUBLE, AND LEARN YOUR GODDAMN LESSONS INSTEAD OF FORGETTING THEM WHEN THE EPISODES ARE OVER" would be hilarious in a show where everyone is a douche and everyone is at or near this level of douchiness. In a show like that, you could laugh when she magicks Rick happy and everyone almost dies because he was too high to remember how to fix a time machine, you can laugh when some old lady gets splashed by mud or blood or water and she says "I can help with that!" and magicks the local cartman knockoff into a towel and uses the towel on the splashed guy with no sense of what is right or wrong or normal, dropping Carttowel on the ground and turning him back, and the Cartman knockoff is all "I have seen things that should never be seen". You can laugh at characters you don't like or root for when bad things happen to them. That's an extension of a law of comedy so basic, the Warner Brothers guys figured it out back when Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck were new.

But in MLP:FIM, where we're supposed to LIKE these ponies and ROOT FOR THEM? I don't laugh when five of the mane six get mind controlled into slaves for an extremely petty reason. You could laugh at the writers for thinking you would, I suppose, or laugh at how stupid it is that the writer doesn't know what tone he's supposed to be writing for, but... No, Every Little Thing She Does wasn't funny, it was proof that Starlight can't change and won't change because she doesn't see anything wrong with the shit she does.

2. You've never heard of Jim "Fuck the Bronies, fuck em. We make this show for the little girls that love it" Miller? The guy that replaced Faust? SOMEbody missed Jimmy's epic meltdown on /mlp/ yesterday. I called him a loser and dared him to say one positive thing about Miller or MLP S6. This was too hard for him, so he raged. It was great. I have screens.

5877521 Words of advice, shut up. Every word you type is just you digging your hole a bit deeper.

5877521 We can't get rid of her, we have to live with it. So far Starlight maybe guilty of some serious Orwellian shit, but in context she convinced ponies to come to her village, not actively force them in. (With the Exception of the Main Cast.)

I'll remind you that Twilight caused a massive incident involving a doll and a "need me want me spell" because she was late with her report to Celestia.

Starlight needed to go on a journey to seek redemption instead of just becoming part of the cast. She needed to understand her actions in depth.

5877565 Hole? What hole? Tell me, what do I have to fear from four anonymous children that couldn't muster up the mental capacity to create a counterargument, yet still vote on my comment's score as if I care what number they pollute by touching?

Edit: One thumbs down. What an eloquent argument against democracy you are!

5877595 If I had a nickel for every time some Glimglam fan raised this false correlation, I'd be able to buy Hasbro out and fire Miller myself.

Twilight, a mentally unstable basket case at that point, terrified that she'd lose all that she had if she failed for the first time in her life, cast a spell that would create a friendship problem she could solve, using the best spell she knew of for the job. When it escalated, she tried to stop it, failed, felt bad about what she'd done, showed genuine remorse, and was told to knock that shit off by Celestia, who treated Twilight like she'd done wrong, then recognized she was partly to blame for this and lessened the load on the poor mare (And the writers) by allowing all of the mane six to send her letters. Say what you will about Twilight in the episode, but that episode had to happen so Twilight wouldn't need to be shoehorned into episodes she didn't belong in and forced to learn a lesson in said episode.

Starlight wanted to speedrun a list of tasks given by Twilight, and when her friends raised concerns and problems with her ideas, Suelight got triggered and erased their personalities, individualities, and free wills with a spell she crafted specifically to do that. When Twilight calls her out on violating what are probably major magical laws in Equestria, Starlight sees nothing wrong with what she's done and only starts showing remorse when she realizes Twilight might punish her in some way or call her a shitty student. Starlight is apparently incapable of feeling sorry for what she's done, and she simply whines about how ponies haven't already just forgiven her for her crimes like the mane six have. This episode has no plot significance, and if anything, makes Glimmer look WORSE. She's learned NOTHING from Twilight and will learn NOTHING because she CAN'T CHANGE AND DOESN'T WANT TO CHANGE BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH BEING GLIMMER. I've seen people like this IRL. They do not redeem themselves or get redeemed. They remain shitty until they die or get themselves killed.

On an unrelated note, Twilight is also pretty dumb in this episode for not realizing the extent of Glimmer's mental retardation (It's not rude to say that if you're talking about fictional characters) and writing up a slower-paced lesson plan that even Glimmer couldn't bugger up. Perhaps slow-paced multi-hour daily lessons, with picture books for foals like "Misty's Marvellous Magic", a pop-up book about how Unicorns should always be careful when using magic, and only use their magic responsibly, illustrated with a Unicorn named Misty having fun mutating her friends until she realizes she can't turn them back and they'll be stuck like this until an adult comes to fix her problems. Or, perhaps, if that'd just roll off Glimmer's back like pop rocks, she could get the harsher option and be given an anti-magic horn ring, a locked cell, a desk, and a big-ass book on morality. Write a 40-page essay on the basic human morality (Basic equine morality?) you'd learn for the first time in your life from this book, and if you don't learn enough, there's no hope for you and you're off to Tartarus with the other inherently-evil monsters that'd destroy the world if they had their way.

Going on a long-ass journey to find herself and genuinely redeem herself, or sacrificing herself to save all the dead and dying and hurt ponies in all the alternate timelines she created, is the only way the character can be made tolerable. Too many poor writing decisions have been made, she's like everything wrong with Modern Spongebob and Family Guy condensed into one shitty OC shilled constantly at the expense of the story's logic. Remind me again, why is this brat naturally stronger than Twilight "Personal Student of Princess Celestia and Element of fucking Magic, bitch!" Sparkle? Why was that aspect of her "Character" necessary? Could it be that the writers just made her super powerful because they thought it'd make her and her toys sell better?

5877624 Congratulations, because how rude you are to pretty much everyone who disagrees with your opinion on any thread you post on any group, I've filed a report.

5877632 For a moment, imagine if I refrained from using words like "Fuck" and "Fucking". Imagine if I sounded like Fluttershy, shy and demure and kind-hearted. Imagine that I politely phrased all of my harsh truths, and watered down each and every one with "Of course, you can still like Glimmer if you want!"s and "But that's just my opinion, of course"s. Tell me, in this imaginary world where I waste time and mince words... Would bitter truths like Glimmer's status as a Black Hole Sue be any easier for you to swallow? If I sounded unsure of myself and unsure of how firm I should be when discussing ponies on the internet, would you feel better about yourself and your apparent inability to mount a counterargument?

Look, kid, it's alright. I'm not mad. Your report won't hurt me, because it's a false report. It's not like I was rude to you, specifically. It's not like I told you to jump off a cliff or whatever for liking Glimmer. In fact, I don't think I insulted Glimmer fanboys at all. All I did was critique a bad character and the bad writing that made her a bad character in the setting she's in. I even pointed out where she could be a good character! I'm clearly not just here to annoy people by saying things they don't want to hear. I clearly care deeply about ponies and enjoy deep discussion about them.

But trust me, the secret to a good argument isn't to just pull the Tone Argument card and think that's it. It's clear that you disagree with what I have to say. So... disagree. Tell me why you like Glimmer. I won't make fun of you if I don't like your reasons. I'm not taking anything away from you by pointing out flaws or breaking arguments down, and I'm not hurting you by doing this, either.

Now, this next part is going to sound rather rude, but I want you to bear with me, alright? This is a mature discussion, and if you can't handle it... Well, nobody's going to think less of you for dropping out and finding something nicer to read. You might enjoy Gurren Lagann. No joke, that series is absolutely amazing.

5877651 Okay, I don’t even know how this thread turned into an argument about Starlight Glimmer, but let’s address some of the original issues you had before it devolved into this.

The reason a story is considered a Sue story is because characters don’t exist in a vacuum, but within narrative constructs. These narrative constructs ideally depict characters overcoming challenges, whether they be saving the universe, trying to bond with family, or something as simple as getting a cup of coffee.

So, seeing as how I’ve gone through your blogs, I’ll use the story of Silver Star Apple clearing the temple(which is now gone, apparently)as an example. The reviewer’s main issue(yes, I tracked down the review)seemed to be a lack of meaningful conflict, to which you said on your blog “of course there’s no conflict! It was a test run!”

Which means there’s no challenge. Which makes him appear to be a Sue in the context of that specific story.

The idea behind writing a character with a certain level of power into a story is met with the expectation that there’ll be a meaningful challenge to his power. I don’t think anyone would particularly find a routine trap-clearing run through a temple particularly engaging on a narrative level. What people would find engaging, however, is where your OC, Silver Star Apple, faced a significant threat to life and limb while attempting a routine trap-clearing run because, um, I don’t know, magical snakes or something(this is just off of the top of my head, mind you. I’m sure you could think of a more appropriate challenge). Personally, if I was reading a story about going into a temple with traps, I wouldn’t expect it to be something along the difficulty level of checking to see if the alarm is on before you leave the house.

Basically, the idea I’m trying to hammer in is that in an engaging story there’s a significant struggle, whether or not it’s that magical snakes have infested the temple or he’s just trying to find a good cup of coffee.

5877624 You know pall, I haven't downvoted a single post of yours.

And I hate Starlight Glimmer as she is written now.

But you know what? I don't care. I mean, I can't write that story where Folklore is the one to arrive in "OurTown" instead, finds the missing marks first destroys their containment, and then surgically renders Starlight incapable of using magic, leaving her in a mental institution in Manehattan.

But then what? She will return or die in the Asylum.

As much as I don't like Twilight's choice in rehabilitating her. I get the logic behind it, Starlight figured out how to extend the capabilities of the spell, and planed her actions.

She showed remorse once she realized that the world would have been destroyed had she succeeded. And all those alternate timelines where erased once it was all said and done. Those ponies never died, it's done.

Look in the end we can't get what we want, we have to deal with it instead. Work around it.

Jim Miller maybe dick and an idiot, but in the end what are we going to do? Eh?

5873064

You know what I'm talking about.

I actually don't. Are there any specific examples you can point to?

5877712
It's interesting that the OC in question can control metals, gems and plants at will, can teleport over long distances, has enchanted his ribs to summon anti-magic weapons and can summon weapons to insta-kill powerful foes...

... yet, according to the creator, he doesn't check the box for "uses strong magic".

5877839 I mean, that’s interesting data, but having created the character, I think silverstarapple should be able to create a meaningful conflict for him to face off with.

The issue isn’t really the amount of power the character has, as I’ve previously stated. It’s the amount that the character struggles throughout the story in question.

5877847
Thing is, that's assuming giving the character a meaningful conflict is the reason why a story about him is written at all. Perhaps that's just not the case. Perhaps the stories exist to show off how strong and skilled this character is, rather than put his skills and power to a serious test.

Those skills, I got from story and the accompanying comments by the author. The story itself dealt with Silverstar Apple utterly curbstomping a powerful opponent, toying with him the entire time. So yeah, maybe Silverstar Apple exists to be unironically cool, powerful, strong, and fearless, without any real challenge to either of those.

5877875

Perhaps the stories exist to show off how strong and skilled this character is, rather than put his skills and power to a serious test.

I see where you’re coming from, but ideally both goals can be achieved in the same story. You can achieve a depiction of all of the things you’ve described while still making the character meaningfully work for it.

5877890
I agree! It all comes down to the same issue: If the character doesn't have to put any effort into what he does, why then should we, the readers, care?

5877910

There is the case of One Punch Man, where the real conflict is in Saitama having to deal with a selfish public and a hero registration system that is ineffective and downright insulting. Not to mention that he is late usually, so we get to see most of the heroes fight against the monsters before Saitama anyway.

Not to mention that he lives in a relatively small apartment in an abandoned part of City Z.

Being the Strongest Man on earth doesn't guarantee you Fame, Fortune, or Social Standing after all.

The series even goes in length to show how none of that even maters anyway.

1. One Punch Man is a parody of superhero stories. And it's a damn good one!
2. OPM isn't a traditional story about someone gaining power or using it to help others, it's a story about a super-everything hero that gets no respect for his actions or heroism, a man who has lost his love for life slowly regaining it and a reason to fight.
3. OPM recognizes that Saitama just isn't like the rest of the hero association, and often focuses on other, weaker heroes with their lives on the line when a major threat happens, so the hype will be there until Saitama shows up. And the camera keeps rolling after that. OPM is more than some DBZ fanboy powerwanking over Broly in a Superman forum or a DC fanboy powerwanking over Superman in a DBZ thread, it's a good story, and it's proof that strong-characterphobia is irrational.

5877839
You realize I never said my character wasn't a strong character, right? Besides, strong doesn't equal Black Hole Sue.

5877847
1. Thank you for your faith in me, it really means a lot.
2. The story he's getting that spell list from is actually pretty old. He forgot to include momentum! :D
3. Yes, there will be fights where Silver is challenged and fights foes stronger than him. Not every fight will be a Squash Match. In fact, I have the feeling you'll REALLY like the finale of my main fic's season 1 finale.

5877847
1. Thank you for your faith in me, it really means a lot.
2. The story he's getting that spell list from is actually pretty old. He forgot to include momentum! :D
3. Yes, there will be fights where Silver is challenged and fights foes stronger than him. Not every fight will be a Squash Match. In fact, I have the feeling you'll REALLY like the finale of my main fic's season 1 finale.

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5877961 Yeah, as long as you remember to push your characters, you should be doing fine.

5877970 I don't know who this reviewer is, and I kinda like him.

But there ain't no way in hell Sunset Shimmer But Written Worse the Black Hole Sue is an ENTJ. I'M an ENTJ.

5878009 You have no idea how much that explains....

Here you are talking about your criticisms of Starlight Glimmer, and me thinking that in a way you two aren't that different.

Then all of the sudden BOOM! This revelation comes into fruition!

Oh man, this is magnificent!

5877957 I think I already mentioned One Punch Man, and I actually love it. I never tried to present it as a negative, but I was using One Punch Man to dismantle the Great Derpsby's argument.

I just needed to mention the series name, I have no need to tell everyone how damn awesome it is.

5878111

I think I already mentioned One Punch Man, and I actually love it. I never tried to present it as a negative, but I was using One Punch Man to dismantle the Great Derpsby's argument.

It didn't dismantle my argument at all. The fact is, you don't watch One Punch Man because you're worried about him in a fight. Saitama's conflict is internal, there's no external thing that could ever threaten him. And that same conflict still challenges him. Saitama's tragedy is that he's the butt of a cosmic joke; a fighter so strong, there's no need for him to make an effort, so actually caring becomes the effort.

5878145 You are right. And you have to admit, the gods really outdid themselves with that cosmic joke.

5873064 You want to know a famous Mary Sue character that end up making a shit ton of crappy movies by shitting all over the source material and yet made millions of dollars at the box office? This character right here:

Alice of the Resident Evil movie series. It's like someone's Resident Evil fanfic made real.

5878842 That isn't even remotely relevant to my original point. Not even close. However, I can't bring myself to make fun of you for it, because HOLY SHIT, THAT CHARACTER IS APOCALYPTIC LEVELS OF BULLSHIT, AND WHAT SHE DID TO THE FRANCHISE IS SO FUCKING STUPID IT HURTS! IF THERE'S ONE PLACE I DIDN'T EXPECT TO BE REMINDED OF THAT, IT'S THIS.

5878214 Yeah. Besides, despite his incredible power, he isn't a Sue. He doesn't warp the world around him or make the subject of every conversation him and only him, he doesn't make characters act OOC for his benefit or do any Glimmer stuff in any real way.

Remember that episode where she befriended Trixie, and Twilight was made apprehensive about the redeemed bitter stage magician becoming friends with Suelight, even though Trixie was redeemed last she saw her, solely to make Twilight the bad guy and give Starlight an excuse to save Trixie from an heroing herself, making Starlight looking better in comparison and using that damn "The teacher can learn things from the student" cliche incorrectly? And Twilight was portrayed as automatically wrong for not wanting the mentally unstable sociopath stronger than her to make friends with the egotistical stage magician who probably fantasized about having Glimmer's power level or a friend with Glimmer's power level every night when on the road? And how Twilight was forced to learn a lesson she already knew solely to make Glammer look better in comparison, even though ELTSD proves Starlight isn't "Redeemed", not even a little, just forgiven over and over because Sue.

5889620 You are driven! Jesus.

Look you are right, but here is the thing you are not seeing.

That episode does not show how much of a Mary Sue Starlight Glimmer is. It shows the limits of the Mane-Six and of Children's Television Today.

Starlight isn't a "monster" so they can't send her to Tartarous. They send her to an Asylum or have her killed they would be doing something that can't be shown or mentioned with a TV-Y audience in mind.

On a non meta level, the Mane-Six don't have the will to kill her. And they can't send her to Tartarous because she might come in contact with Tirek.

They have no choice but to try and reform her. They don't actually even like her, much less forgive her. But Starlight is simply a problem too complicated for them to deal with the way that it has to be dealt with. And with her being too dangerous to be loosed free on the world. They have to try and manipulate a Sociopath to actually doing some good, or else they have a living magical time bomb running around without any supervision.

There, I hope that is good enough.

5889710 Now that would make some excellent storytelling! If only Jim Miller was intelligent enough to realize that's the story he's written so far, and the character he's written so far. No, from Miller's perspective, she's made enough progress to graduate. I was hoping this would be code for "You now go to the Crystal Empire, where we will never hear from you again", but sadly, it doesn't seem like this will be the case.

If Glimmer came into contact with Tirek in Tartarus, Tirek would drain her magic, but not have enough to break free, if we assume the power levels of the ponies he drained added up, but still weren't enough to surpass Alicorn Twilight+All other Alicorn power. Then again, Glimmer's so broken it hurts the setting and story...

Wait, remember that time Discord warped away the horns and wings of the mane six? With just one finger snap? Taking Glimmer's magic away shouldn't be hard. Finger snap one removes her horn, snap two removes her hooves, snap three removes her mouth, snap four removes her eyes, and snap five summons a magic vacuum cleaner or bycicle pump that goes in her nose and drains the magic, colour, and life for her as he gleefully pumps it out of her, making her an Equalized pony just for the sake of cruel irony.

Also, Glimmer belongs in Tartarus, but an insane asylum would work, if Discord is being worfed again and antimagic hornrings could be put on her. Children's cartoons got away with worse. Arkham Asylum... Pretty much every joke where Squidward or the resident Squidward knockoff snaps and ends up in a padded room with a straight jacket on... Hell, Spike could pass her an enchanted comic and trap her away forever, or until she solved the plot. All he has to do is contact the publisher and ask for a massive comic that lasts many years or never ends or whatever, and Glimmer's no longer a problem.

5889857 Yeah, but those are TV-Y7 shows! Not TV-Y. In order to get away with what you mentioned, they have to give MLP a TV-Y7. The rating controls the show, the show doesn't control the rating.

5889857 Yeah about Discord's hand in simply rendering her incapable of using magic? Even if that fit into the TV-Y rating, it basically is having Discord do the same things he did as a villain to try and solve the plot in an instant. Basically Starlight Glimmer is simply one of those things that may have been better off if she went missing in a cave.

5889912 Yeah, going missing in a cave, getting eaten by some swamp monster, using a time spell to sacrifice herself to un-screw the timelines and save the ponies that had their lives ruined by her timescrewery... all of these would be preferable to more Glimglam being shoved down our throats by Jim "Fuck the bronies" Miller.

Wait, Discord snapped his fingers and removed horns before. Trixie used the Alicorn Amulet to remove Pinkie's mouth with a PC's mouse before. Twilight has turned ponies into breezies before. All Discord has to do is do something so silly the censors can't object to it, like turning her into a beach ball and kicking her into space, and we're golden. Or retcon her entire evilspree, poor redemption, etc as a weird dream Twilight had after the Our Town episode. Twilight wakes up in shock and is handed a letter from Spike telling her Starlight either got apprehended by guards or was captured by Changelings. Which reminds me: A Starlight Glimmer-controlled world would be easy pickings for changelings. Maybe that's why Miller ruined the species in an impotent rage after a colleague pointed out that Equalestria would be easy pickings.

Or you could have YET ANOTHER starlight episode take a turn for the better when her usual "Use magic to ham-fistedly solve solution with no fucks given regarding the law or the feelings of your friends" stuff ends in arrests, magicking herself into a balloon that explodes in confetti, etc.

There's going to be a scene in my fanfic where my OC calls Glimmer out on being what she is. ...Maybe. Only if I can find a way to make that an awesome character moment and not some bog-standard Naruto fanfic-tier Accusation Fic stuff.

5891511 I can't do that. Folklore has done some pretty messed up things. The character I created, Folklore? He went to war in service to the Gallic Foreign Legion, (French Foreign Legion) because he wanted as much distance between himself and Equestria thanks to his mothers death in a botched spiritual séance. (she sacrificed herself to save the world, ill just say Lovecraftian shit) Invented the worlds first chemical weapons during said war against the Kingdom of Shiba. (Zecora's homeland, him and her where on opposite sides of the conflict. Also he was forced to invent chemical warfare under the threat of execution.) Weapons that where unleashed on civilians. (the Zebra Shamans retaliated with zombies) Was left to die in the ruins of an ancient city by his CO, fought his way out of the Shiba occupied city back to the base, and was arrested. There is a Zombie siege at the base, (that was basically with the kind of things you would have seen in WWI, so no automatics) and started a mutiny. He then chained his CO in the center of the court yard as bait to distract the Zombies, Folklore and what was left of hi unit escaped, and he eventually found his way back to Equestria. His hooves are drenched in blood.

5891778 Woah. My OC's never actually killed anyone, he's just conned rich assholes out of house and home while disguised. That's where a good portion of his money comes from.

5891854

He seems petty to me, and odd. How can a Con-man that skilled and that successful function in a single location for that long? Without changing his name I may add? One of the single most successful con-men in American History constantly traveled the country and changed Identities to cover his tracks. Sure I can see the need to create a character like that for catharsis, but he can't remain in a single city, and stealing entire noble fortunes no mater how much they deserved loosing them is bound to attract a ton of attention.

You can pull the whole Lupin the Third excuse of a criminal that likes to show of. But then again, Lupin is both a master thief and a showman, he already made his fortune before announcing his name to the world, and he constantly moves form country to country not only seeking the best possible prize, but also avoiding INTERPOL, not to mention he has on hell of a team, that he is fully aware that he would be nothing without.

5889857 I am surprised I haven't gotten into this conversation, and I'm not sure if I should have since I've seen it addressed before... but I want to say it's incredibly ironic that you call Starlight "overpowered" in a thread about how stupid the fandom is in hating powerful characters... and then go on to describe how Discord can unmake a pony but you don't have a problem with his power level, and you apparently want him to do so to Starlight because you don't like her, for some reason.

I'm wondering what the point of this thread is, because "strong characterphobia" isn't something you can complain about and then complain that Starlight is overpowered, as if there was any real metric for that.