Is it still considered a good deed if you get rewarded for it? · 7:35am Oct 20th, 2021
There is a company named Heaven and the boss named Got says, "One who produces a yearly financial report for me shall get a promotion."
The Employe Christian hears of this good news and works diligently to produce said report.
There's another employee named Athist who didn't get the memo because he was at a meeting with a client. He too works diligently and produces a financial report because he knows the company needs it.
When the year comes to an end, Got gets two identical financial reports on the table, one from Christian and one from Athist. He is also informed by his secretary Angel that the former got the memo about the promised promotion but the latter did not.
Got knows his employees and that the only difference between the two is the reason for doing the financial report. This was the only test for them and Got has to make a decision on who to promote right here and now. Only one shall get the promotion, no other information will be gathered, no other tests shall be performed. The motivation for doing the good deed is the only decisive factor.
So, which one of them should Got bring to the higher floor:
a) Christian who heard the good news of the reward and worked his ass off to get it
b) Athist who worked his ass off without expecting the promotion or any other reward at the end of the year
?
Let me know in the comments.
In the fashion of employers everywhere, he informs them that it was a joke and they shouldn't have taken him seriously, doesn't promote either of them, hires someone from another company to fill the position, and eventually replaces them with cheaper labor from overseas.
Later on, the company goes out of business because their quality went down after the people who knew what they were doing left.
--Sweetie Belle
I also consulted an oracle to see what answer they'd give:
i.imgur.com/sk9SfRv.png
https://delphi.allenai.org/
--Sweetie Belle
Obviously I know what this is, but just for shiggles:
Athist, because he worked his butt off for the benefit of the company, while Christian worked his butt off in the hopes that he would benefit himself. The latter did the work out of selfishness, while the former did it out of generosity.
5597892 Your scenario is in line with my vision of Heaven (the place is empty).
As for the ethics of an AI, after testing it, I'm not very confident about it:
5597894 Are you saying Christians go to Hell and Atheists go to Heaven?
5597895
I also ran this test:
I will say that I don't like the limitations on the question, as they shouldn't have to be competing for the position. If they are both doing good work, promote both of them!
I also feel like a more realistic scenario would be the first employee agreeing with everything the boss says, and paying lip service to it, but actually ignoring most of it when actually working and not producing a very good final report, with the second employee contradicting the boss at points, but being much better at the job and producing a good report... (In which case, the second employee would be the better pick if it was a good boss.)
--Sweetie Belle
5597895
If that's how that answer is interpreted, then maybe? Although I was 'raised' Methodist, I'm an Agnostic myself. I've had conversations about the afterlife with friends, and my personal take on Heaven (if it exists) is that it's set up in rings (like Dante's Inferno, just going in the other direction). Since Athist and Christian both benefitted the company, Athist would just be on a higher ring due to the difference in their motivations.
Personally, as a whole, my take on God and the afterlife is that if they exist and you're going to be judged, you should be judged by your actions and your impact, not whether or not you believe in Him. I don't want to talk religion any more than that because I'm bound to offend someone otherwise.
I knew I was being reminded of something, and had to look and see what it was. Not what the same, but this was it:
--Sweetie Belle
5597901
That's not how real-life works. That's not how God works.
My question holds true regardless of whether the boss is good or bad. It's just logic.
With your scenario, you address the quality of the boss as well.
Though, I must admit yours is a bigger moral dilemma. Should we respect the system even when it's faulty, or should we rebel against the system whenever we feel we're in the right? Personally, I have a hard time answering that one.
On an unrelated note, I don't think this is a very Christian thing to do:
mlpforums.com/uploads/post_images/img-2013584-1-640px-Sweetie_Belle_jumps_on_Mr._Waddle's_back_S2E17.png
Usually, a priest is the one who forces himself on top of a child, not the other way around.
5597909 The idea is similar, but the scenarios in that blog aren't based on objective reasoning and real-life examples. They also don't address the morality of it all.
5597904 Your rings idea does sound more moral than the one Heaven interpretation. Christian belief boils down to: "If you say 'thank you' to me, I will reward you with immortality and eternal bliss. But if you forget to thank me for something you're not sure I did, I will torture you for all eternity."
If we tried to create 'Heaven' on Earth it would be like: "If you got a parking ticket, we will jail you for life."
There's a reason why different crimes garner different punishments in the court of law.
I'm gonna be a shrewd wizard here and ask an additional question: why is the promotion considered a good thing? A change of job can and often does come with new responsibilities, new challenges. Athist was unaware he was working towards a promotion, and as such has not prepared himself as such. Christian was aware, and is supposedly prepared and eager.
In this train of thought, it is better for everyone who'll be under said promoted person that they be prepared and trained for the function, which Christian is, presumably. We're also assuming Athist's working with incomplete information here.
Also, I love how this metaphor basically involves a Christian and an atheist working their butts off to the best of their ability, only for their boss to say 'Good job, you're both gonna die now.'
Because we are talking about the after-life here, right? Expiration date?
My view on it is what I learned from my own 'holy' book: God will do His will no matter what, and has no reason to take cues from us anyway. Pretending to know, predict, or be able to even interpret the will of a being that creates on a cosmic scale is an exercise in both futility and hubris.
So yeah, give the promotion to Christian. Let Athist know he missed out, give him a chance for the next one, or some other appropriate reward that suits his strengths.
Because neither of them loses anything, that might be what's missing from the story. Neither of them stands to lose their current position.
5598045 You're right. I should have added that the other person would get fired.
So, tell me. Do you consider going to Heaven to be a good thing? By your logic, one might as well aim to go to Hell. Going to Heaven comes with singing praises to God, after all. That's a huge responsibility, right? You need selfish people for that.
Is he like TwoFace, tossing a coin to make decisions?
Imagine having a teacher at school who would never justify the grades she gives. She'd just say, "Who are you to question me, the teacher?"
Such a teacher would lose her job immediately. And so too should God.
Oh, and let me tell you what happens next year in the story. The reason why Christian had created the report was to get a promotion. But the next year, there was no such motivation because he already had the reward. Athist would have created it, but he got fired by the stupid boss. Thus, no report was created and because of that IRS shuts down the company.
Had the boss promoted Athist, he could have been sure that Athist would continue to do good. Christian was only after the reward from the start. There was no indicating that he would do good even without the reward.
Based on your logic, selfish people go to Heaven and good people go to Hell.
Then again, what you say about God fits perfectly with what I learned from my own study of the holy book.
5598067
I reiterate: no way for mortal minds to comprehend. Even if the teacher had a solid and logical way to explain it, and they might be trying to, we don't have the capacity to understand it. It's not that it's one or the other, it's that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Also, this is all from the perspective that Heaven and Hell are the only options. They are in your worldview, not in mine. You're a cleric, I'm a wizard, so to speak, we're not going to see things the same way. You wish to believe in such a God? Not gonna argue. Heck, it's probably illegal to argue in some countries, and/or against site rules. So not gonna do it. I just like analysing stories and poking at flawed metaphors, is all.
5598079 I'm very suspicious of those who tell me to not bother thinking as long as I do what I'm told. I call them tyrants.
I also think you're wrong. Adam ate from the tree of knowledge, thus gaining an understanding of good and evil. This understanding was passed down to his descendants.
By saying questions of morality are beyond our understanding you sully the tree of knowledge that God created.
5598089
Never said questions of morality are out. I said God's will, assuming it is relevant, is inscrutable. You equating the two is entirely your own decision. Your religious leaders are tyrants, you say, well, that's on you, I'm not getting dragged into that debate. And again, wizard versus cleric. If you want to make it cleric vs cleric, I'll indulge in a little multiclassing:
By saying the Tree of Knowledge was God's creation you sully the sacrifice of Wodan's eye, you disrespect the hard work of Ganesh and Toth and all the Knowledge-domain gods, and don't even get me started on how Eris would feel if she heard about this. Why, last time she got snubbed, it ended with a giant horse on somebody's doorstep and an ankle injury.
You think I'm wrong, fine. No skin off my back. You have your experiences and insights, I have mine, they'll meet at the thing at the place.
5598102 If we are capable of understanding morality, why can't we question the morality of God's system then? Why should we cop-out when it comes to Him? We're made in His image. A part of Him is in us. If we can understand ourselves, we should be able to understand at least a part of Him. And even if we couldn't, we can still answer an important question of whether we should adopt God's systems here on Earth. Many propose we should, but is it really moral? I have my doubts.
As for the other religions, I have a bone to pick with them too, but we're grilling God at this time, so they'll have to take a turn.
You're thinking of that foreign gal, Agnost. Athist is the one who does the report even though he knows there is no bonus because the company is fleecing its employees.
5598440 Well, both Agnost and Athist don't care much for company policies. They know IRS is the reality, regardless of company policies.
The difference is, Agnost is a foreign girl who doesn't feel confident enough to even think about company policies. It's just something that is out of her range. Maybe they're good, maybe not. It doesn't even matter as long as it doesn't affect her work.
As for Athist, he can tell you exactly what's wrong with the company policies.
Agnost would do the report because she's a decent human being. Athist would do it because company policies can't be trusted to do the right thing.
As for Christian, he'd have no problem to threaten and fuck with IRS if the big boss told him to do so. The boss doesn't even need any reports or facts because he's so super smart and not evil at all!
5598442
Actually I think both of them do the report for the same reason, and Christian usually for the same reason as well: they're simply inclined to do it naturally because they were not born deficient of empathy.
The difference is that Christian mistakenly believes the reason he and others do the report is solely because they don't want to be punished by the company. He is very confused by other people doing the report, because he can't understand why they would bother, and is consequently wary of their intentions and hopeful someday they will decide to do the right thing for the wrong reasons, like him.
(Also sometimes he won't shut up about this and is totally insufferable and thinks he's persecuted every time somepony asks him to stop.)
5598444 There's one thing that could help all employees and that's if the company leaders actually bothered to come down one day (and I don't mean just to go to the restroom because the restroom in the upper floor was occupied by the boss fucking the cleaning lady Mary) and show that they even exist. It would help if they laid out the company's plans in a way that employees would understand.
As it is, there's just so much confusion. For instance, Christian already went ahead with the project because he heard that the boss's son Yeshua said something about it. All the while, Joe is still waiting for the green light and keeps telling Christian that the boss doesn't even have a son, at least not yet. Joe even went so far as to shred April's first memo that had Yeshua's name on it, saying it was fake.
The boss could clear this and many more confusions right away, but He chooses not to care even though employees keep trying to reach him via phone and e-mail, even though he never answers either.
Some say the whole company is just a test to see how long employees can stay loyal after the leadership of the company no longer comes to the office. Some say the way things are is an optimal way for a company to function and that the boss never makes mistakes. Others say we should all just stick to the April first's memo.
In this blog, however, I mostly wanted to address the question: what constitutes a good employee.
“Christian, Athist, please come in.” Got said.
They stepped into the office to behold the all mighty boss.
“Ok, here’s the thing. None of you get promoted.” Got Said.
“But I devoted my life to the company! My neglected wife burnt down our house and killed herself.” Athist cried out.
“I’ve spent every day and night working for this company. My child died in cancer, and I abandoned his deathbed and wake.” Christian cried out.
“Yeah...” Got said, “A real bummer. I get it. Well, word from the shareholder is that increased salaries reduce profits, and I’m sure you can understand. We all want what’s best for the company, right? Right?!”
“But what about us?”
“But what about us?”
They echoed together, because in Got’s eyes they were both serfs, and 100% identical, as far as he was concerned.
“You should leave that selfish attitude outside. We don’t want egoism here at the office. Think of the climate or something.” Got said and ushered them outside.
A short time later a note from the shareholder arrived. It notified Got that he was fired.
Got was to be replaced, because Shareholder prays to Mammon, and doesn’t give a shit about Got.
Sorry if it doesn’t fit your story, but the latest fad in painting and storytelling is ultra-realism, so I pushed Earth’s corporatism in there.
5617011 Actually, this fits with my story perfectly. You see, I've already been to Heaven.
The place is abandoned. No soul resides there. God has abandoned that place millennia ago.
So, if nobody goes to Heaven, it only stands to reason that we all go to Hell.
5617041
I find this strangely comforting.
For a while I was worried I would be separated from my friends.
5617122 You have nothing to worry about, unless you take the red pill.
b) Athist who worked his ass off without expecting the promotion or any other reward at the end of the year should get promoted.
5627918 Christians won't like that.
5627919
They surely won't.