Regarding Less-Than-Positive Interpretations of Pride · 5:03pm Jun 29th, 2021
Let's get a quick disclaimer out of the way before we really get going: I don't like foalcon. By "foalcon" here, I refer specifically to M-rated stories that depict characters who are very clearly meant to be minors engaging in sexually explicit conduct with other minors and/or adults. Not a fan of it! I find it gross on a personal level, I think it's morally reprehensible that a site of this size has yet to crack down on it to literally any degree (let alone a meaningful one), and I would very much prefer that it be banned from this online space the same way we ban plagiarism, "novelization" crossovers, and script format. And actually, I don't even think we should ban script format on a fanfic site dedicated primarily to a TV show, if I'm honest with you, but that's a whole other topic.
Now, all that being said, there is a (shallow) argument that foalcon exists in the same space as incest porn and depictions of extreme gore--namely, as stuff that is rightfully illegal in the real world but can be shown in a fictional context without advocating that it should happen IRL, although of course Some Homeboys Around here thinK otherwisE for certain topicS. Not naming names, but y'all know who you/they are.
Anyway, loath though I am to admit it most of the time, I'm unaware of any studies determining whether access to simulated child porn online increases or decreases a minor-attracted person's likelihood of harming a real child, and since minors ostensibly shouldn't be viewing any explicit content online (ostensibly), arguing that porn of this nature could harm minors is really part of a larger conversation about the prevalence of unhealthy sexual attitudes in public spaces. In light of all that, I don't know that I have a good objective argument for "deplatforming" foalcon other than a broad awareness that deplatforming works great for getting fascists to stop ruining online spaces, and there's a weird amount of overlap between the two groups.
However, I'm not writing this blog as a frothing rant against porn I don't like. I'm actually writing it because of a fic that I noticed in the New Stories tab this morning, and the massive, massive problem I have with it and its writer that I think deserves some critical examination. It's still on the site's homepage as I'm writing this, so while I'm not going to name it or its author specifically, it's not hard to find if you care to look for it. What's important, though, isn't so much the line-by-line content of the story, but rather what the author clearly intended for the story's theme to be.
In this fic, a 11-year-old character (explicitly identified as such) confesses to an adult character that they have romantic feelings for them. The adult reacts awkwardly at first, but ultimately reciprocates the minor's romantic feelings. However, this fic is not "foalcon," in the sense that it isn't sexually explicit in any way. In fact, it's rated E for everyone--adults, kids, and everybody in between. Based on that, the story's title and summary, the author's most recent blog post, and the fact that the author submitted it to the "Pride and Positivity" group (the mod of which promptly removed the story and banned the author, so no shade to that crew, they're awesome), the intent is very clear: the author wanted to display romantic relationships between adults and minors as natural and not harmful, especially when they're "initiated" by the minor in question. In other words, they want to normalize minor attraction as a legitimate sexual identity, and they want to frame public opposition to that concept as an unjust answer to the question of who someone is "allowed to fall in love with" in the same rhetorical neighborhood as homophobia.
This is--and I cannot express how earnestly and unironically I mean this--a legitimately dangerous thing to say, especially in an E-rated fic. "Romantic" interactions between minors and adults in the real world are not "relationships"; they are abuse. They are always abuse, regardless of who "initiates" it or how nominally chaste either party remains. There are no circumstances whatsoever under which it is appropriate for an adult to even entertain the thought of being intimate in this way with a child, because there are no circumstances under which a minor can consent to any form of romantic or sexual intimacy with a legal adult (and please, save any comments about what the age of consent should actually be for the Libertarian National Convention and/or the rattling chasm in your head where the shell fell off your peanut brain).
Grappling with controversial topics in literature is a trend as old as time. Portraying fictional relationships between minors and adults as the inappropriate and extraordinarily harmful travesties they always are in real life isn't by any means a crime. Hell, even writing about minors having sex at least gives you the thinnest veneer of plausible deniability that you're just exploring a fetish and would never condone that kind of thing being done to a real human kid. But knowingly framing this kind of relationship as something valid that puritanical society just isn't ready to accept, and especially conflating rude comments about pedophiles online with the systemic discrimination and violence levied against adults engaging in consensual relationships outside the heterosexual norm, is vile. And all things considered, "vile" is the right word for his author, and the people like them on this site who advocate in increasingly louder tones for the normalization of inherently abusive sexual dysfunction.
Now, you may have noticed I mostly used the term "minor-attracted person" rather than "pedophile" for most of this blog, and that was intentional. Venomous as I've been towards this author and the perspective they represent, I don't inherently hate people who feel sexually attracted to simulated or actual minors, because there is a difference between someone who feels that attraction and tries to ensure through psychiatric and/or medical means that it never leads to them harming a real child, and someone who feels that attraction and acts upon it in an irreversible and unforgivable way. But there's a third category too: the minor-attracted person who may or may not actually abuse a real child, but who chooses to portray their dysfunction as a unique sexual identity worthy of respect, while ignoring or even actively denying the damage they could cause and are causing. A person who says:
I think it's time to show these users that WE ARE WELCOME HERE!
You're not. None of you are, if you want to pull shit like this in a place where kids and users with mature filters on are going to see it. And look, I'm sympathetic to mental health issues, and particularly depression contributing to suicidal ideation. Y'all know I am, on a personal level. But jusT as IT is wiTh anY other site user (not naming names), struggling with personal tragedies and non-neurotypical thought patterns is not an excuse to be a fucking monster.
I can forgive appropriately addressed minor attraction. I can bite my tongue sometimes about less healthy means of expressing that attraction. But I don't fuck with monsters. And I don't forget when they go mask off where we all can see them.
You tell 'em! I'd really like to try and make sure this site a safe place for minors in advance of G5's release, in case it draws new faces into the community. Authors should not be indirectly grooming children, full stop.
Unfortunately, this kind of garbage is clearly welcome here. Not only is there no policy against it, but the management of this establishment has made it quite clear that they will punish anyone who speaks out too loudly against it. Far more egregious forms of literary child porn (I refuse to euphemize it as "foalcon") are not only allowed, but protected.
I don't have any links to studies, but from I've been told by actual psychologists that "virtual" child porn normalizes the sexualization of children (something a number of cultures already do to a disturbing extent), and can definitely increase the likelihood that someone who already has paedophile/hebephile leanings will act on their urges. There are some studies showing that graphically violent material can do this for violently anti-social individuals; but research is still ongoing in both cases.
Yeah, reading the end of that blog with the big huge letters, saying "Please support foalcon writers and readers by helping out the cause!" Is both gross and kinda scary to me.
I mostly just want to know why the rule against minors engaging in sexual acts contains an "Except" in it.
5543270
Well, "not welcome" in any space I have a vestige of authority over. Which is pretty much this blog and maybe a con room party or two, but y'know.
And yeah, that tracks with what I assume would be the case but don't have any hard data to support. In a perfect world, though, the burden of proof would fall on the people writing and reading foalcon to prove it doesn't cause harm.
Anyway, since you can't downvote blogs and this comment might catch some strays by proxy, I offer this universally applicable response to anyone who's blocked but still wants to express their displeasure with me:
i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/279/386/6aa.jpg
Not in my pride, and it wouldn't be on my site if I had a say. This is grotesque.
subtle tho
The story was gross, and of course, any dissenters on it get deleted , as it explicitly says so in the story's description, ostensibly because it's a Pride story, and totally not because the author doesn't like people tearing it apart for the pedophilic content.
As bad as the story was, the blog was even worse. To quote it:
It's one thing to barely put up with it, but that blog fucking encourages the celebration of this depravity. It makes me sick to my stomach, to call this "love" and delude oneself that one is somehow so righteous for crusading for its acceptance.
I don't know if deleting fictionalized child porn does much to combat the issue of child sexual abuse, but I do definitely know that these people do not deserve to have platform here and have their filth tolerated and accepted on a widespread level. Especially because of how many minors are in the fandom, and the pedophilia and grooming scandals that have occurred here. This should be a far, far better and safer place, and G5 is going to start soon and pull in even more young people as Though Prism points out.
This problem has grown out of control like a cancerous growth, judging by the popularity of "foalcon" content, and the many who are so vehement that it "totally isn't that bad". And unfortunately, they are welcome here, at least according to the site's administration as they continue to twiddle their thumbs.
Literally the first time I've ever given somebody a follow because of a blog post, and not a story. Well said, well thought, well written. Thank you.
I saw the fic and mistakenly thought it looked cute. I'm so glad I read the comments and saw that it was paedophilia before I actually read it.
And I'm thrilled it got removed from the Pride and Positivity group. Seeing it there made me feel physically ill.
I just wish these folks would just get help rather than deluding themselves into thinking it's somehow acceptable.
5543271
The same reason that paedophiles and hebephiles also love using euphemisms for child sexual abuse: to romanticize it and make it seem less like abuse, and keep other people from easily recognizing it as abuse.
In Fimfiction's case, they're also using a legal loophole to try and prevent the site from being blocked in countries where the laws prohibit virtual child porn, since depictions of non-humans exist in a weird gray area as far as such laws are typically concerned.
Well. This is most unpleasant news. Well said, and I’ve got one story I’m definitely never reading.
THE AUTHOR OF THE STORY JUST POSTED A SUICIDE NOTE:
https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/954592/ive-decided-to-kill-myself
Regardless of what you all think about what they wrote (and believe me, I found it just as repulsive as the rest of you did), this is not good.
FiMFic is already a misogynistic Nazi bar, so adding a "CHILD RAPISTS WELCOME" banner is just about the only way to make it less appealing. We can barricade ourselves in a back room and try to avoid association with all the racists, totalitarians, bigots, pedophiles, etc., but we're still under the same roof with them. Honestly, this place has been unsuitable for minors from the very beginning if only because of the more mature[1] treatment of most stories, but now it's becoming outright uncomfortable for anyone with any sense of decency.
-------------------------
[1] In the lesser-used sense of the word. I hate that the automatic default definition of "mature" has become just "pornography."
I don't have any way to thumbs-up or favorite blogs, so take this comment as doing so.
5543293
I mean he's also been writing excellent fics for years.
Silt like this is a big part of the reason why I've drifted away from this site.
I'm a victim of child abuse. Over the years I've seen this site wrestle with wannabe child abusers and slowly succumb to them. It's been made abundantly clear that, as much as they like to cry persecution, these people are welcome here. I can't, in good conscience, continue to participate in a community that regularly puts foalcon on the featured list.
5543756
I'm the victim of child abuse as well; and this is one of the reasons I haven't been participating more of late.
Unfortunately, as far as the site owners and admins are concerned, child sexual abuse content is welcome to the extent that it's not prohibited by law. Anything to make a buck (pound, franc, ruble, yen, whatever) I guess.
5543372
I'm not exactly a professional; but that did not read like a real suicide note to me; it read more like narcissistic emotional manipulation. Never once did they acknowledge that the problem was their own paedophilia, which they still continued to euphemize, and relied on a lot of buzzwords and dogwhistles that are often used to indirectly stir up mob action against their supposed persecutors.
5543871
So I'm not the only one who feels like that.
That makes me feel a bit better.
5544134
I've dealt with too many narcissists. It just reminded me a whole lot of how they would talk.
5544307
Same here, but just like with any good (well, maybe competent is a better word) narcissist, there was a seed of doubt in my mind. It's still there, but seeing other people with this opinion helps a bit.
Especially as one of the people who commented on the original story, even though I had the mildest criticism possible, it's hard to see a lot of people call you a killer.
Edit: all I said was that she shouldn't make pedophilia an LGBT issue, not sure why I didn't put that in the original comment
They've posted once more! They survived!
Edit: the fuck? Why did this get downvoted?
5543871
5544134
Trust your instincts.
5544647
Yeah... While it's possible it's real, we just have to wait to find out.
5543270
It's not surprising. Knighty's on record as being down with it. Part of why I pulled most of my works and frankly only come here to read some stories I'm following.
That said, to second Aquaman's well stated point: it's even more disgusting to me because certain pedophiles have spent the last couple years trying to rebrand as 'minor-attracted persons' and claim to be an alternative sexuality under the LGBT+ umbrella.
Trying to justify the sexual abuse of children as a sexuality is morally and ethically wrong on nearly every level, and deserving of as much pushback as can be mustered.
I will never condone harassing someone, but I can't imagine why someone writing paedophilia and labeling it under 'Pride' would be surprised by vehement pushback from literally everyone not sharing their illness.
5544853
With this and the nazi shit I can understand why people would leave. Not sure why my return to the fandom isn't as temporary as it probably should be...
I guess I'm just happy there are others who despise all this as much as I do still here.
5543272
Yes because thats how this kind of thing should work. You gotta prove a negative for it to be okay.
Prove that Rape in fiction doesnt cause rape in real life
Prove that Nazis in fiction dont inspire real nazis
Prove that murder in fiction doesnt cause real murder.
In a perfect world, things like you would not exist
The internet is a scary and dangerous place, and fimfic can be one of the worst offenders because of how safe it looks at first glance. The most dangerous wolf is the one that convinces you it’s a sheep.
That being said, it’s pushback like this blog that reminds me there’s some good left in it.
5545028
Aqua is good at leading the charge against shit like this. I'm here for it.
5545028
Yeah, stuff like this, and the people involved, are pretty much the only reason I'm still here. There are still good people here who push back against the awful stuff that goes on.
5544492
Yup, looks like I called it. Not that it was that difficult, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is pretty common in people who romanticize sexually abusing children.
It's stupid when people decide that their whole identity should be based on virtual abuse.
Yikes, my dude, there's a phrase for this... something about sleepings dogs or...
5546029
Interesting take about “identities” coming from someone with no stories and one blog on an account made in 2012. I have room in my fanfictioning schedule for contributing to the site’s library, participating in con panels, running a bookstore, and occasionally calling out toxic behavior that’s damaging to the community as a whole. Other than tacitly defending pedophiles and fascists, what exactly is it that you do around here?
5546119
Heh, the fact that you thought I was talking about you was insightful, but no, I was talking about this Cadence individual. Noticed how I mentioned virtual abuse? As in CP? What you and TS do is mutual between two adults. Therefore, not abuse.
Even if I did insult you like that, which I didn't, It's funny that your response to a perceived slight like that was posturing and flexing, as if that refutes my imaginary point.
Thanks for telling me how you really feel. ALSO when did I even defend pedophiles?! What?! In what universe?! When I think they should be castrated?
5546244
Well, mea culpa for interpreting an extraordinarily vague comment (that also went out of its way to imply I was in the wrong for TS catching a stray bullet in my anti-grooming volley) posted on my blog as being targeted at me. It’s a little tense around here lately.
First of all, no problem, it's easy to misinterpret things on the internet, try to do us and yourself a favor, relax.
Second I mentioned your snipe at a certain user (who won't be named but is actually named haha le clever) because I just found it quite childish. I'm just annoyed that the bullet was a stray bullet, you can respect an aimed shot, but a stray one seems... shaky. Morally I mean. Let me be clear, TS is a cretin, don't try to out-cretin a cretin, it rarely works and it strengthens them.
Third, try not to go blind from looking down your nose Mr. 1000 followers. Looking down on the average user ain't a good take.
It was a pleasure to see such a beautiful post, knowing the types of cave dwellers one would attract with such an eloquently put together thought tank on why being a fully fledged degenerate isn’t ye olde coole and goode. It was a pleasure to read the comments following this, 2 years post-mortem. God bless.