Growing Pains (I'm not innocent/Tu quoque) · 6:17am Jun 16th, 2020
We have to acknowledge our toxic roots.
In response to several different blogs I've seen and some observations of my own, I'm concerned about the course we're on:
There seems to be a growing toxicity in this fandom.
Note: this is based on my perception. I'm open to other interpretations and perceptions. I want this to be a dialogue. What does it mean to be a brony? Have we lost our identity?
Due to my Twitter presence using the Twi-Fi moniker, I've seen some real ugly in this fandom, and I don't mean the usual toxic shit that happens on Twitter. I'm talking about the alt-right. Save your straw-mans for someone who cares, I'm not talking about conservatives or republicans generally (I know people like to conflate all of those, I am not). I'm talking about a very specific group who have a loud presence in this community. A group of hate-mongers, LGBT bigots, racists, and religious fanatics (extremists). And it seems like this group might be growing among us; or maybe they just got louder.
I've always known (maybe foolishly believed) that the brony community was accepting of all, and it was a place to be your self, where you could have fun bucking societal and gender norms. A place where everyone can get together and say, yes MLP is a girls' show, but that doesn't make it bad. We like it and proud of it. The show's very message is about working together, and how working with differences builds a stronger bond. This is the crux of the argument here, in a time of hyper-partisanship (in the US, not sure about elsewhere), online radicalization, and a second civil rights movement, you'd think the bronies would be out there marching with Black Lives Matter. Instead, I learn the deeply disturbing news that someone from this site attacked some protesters with a knife before he was disarmed. And I've seen other brony Twitter accounts expressing similar ideas/posting hateful things.
Where did we go wrong?
We all know this fandom was basically forged in the bowls of 4chan. The fandom obviously grew beyond trolls, memes, and various other awful things. But those people never left it seems, despite the growing acceptance of others. A lot of this has been covered in this blog here talking about the toxic beginnings and literal Nazi ponies. And here's the issue with this, even if it's a troll post and someone with a dark sense of humor made those, we are a fandom of young-impressionable people, and we are a fandom of people outside social norms. Outcasts if you will. Many have been subjected to ruthless bullying, and that makes people even more susceptible to these hate groups. We are a fandom of love, not hate. The bulk of the bronies (correct me if I'm wrong) are Gen Z and Millennials. Or late teens to late 30s. The people posting that kind of stuff are not funny, not even as dark humor, and worst case scenario, people posting that stuff actually believe it and have sinister intentions. Online radicalization through rhetoric. We've enabled this behavior by tolerating it, by letting it gain a foot-hold when we shouldn't have. I know I did... I turned a blind eye to it. There were a couple of toxic groups on here I left instead of reporting them.
Some time ago I was told on Twitter that shipping two female characters was an abomination (I wrote a blog on it too). Well I called that person out because I felt that type of language was against what I considered the unofficial ethos in being a brony. I rebuked this user fairly dismissively, until I checked out their Twitter profile and saw the other things that were being posted. Then I just blocked and moved on... there was no argument to persuade someone to change their mind, not over Twitter, and certainly not the way I responded right out the gate. Granted I was probably baited. It's troubling me that I'm seeing more of this type of thing pop up everywhere though.
If there's one thing I want you to take away from my musings and ramblings is that this is a plea to not lose this fandom to the alt-right, to people who sow the seeds of hate. There is strength in unity, there is strength in diversity. Always.
To be clear, I'm not saying we have to be some homogeneous group where we all agree and think exactly alike. That would be some weird cult. I'm saying we need to hold each other accountable; we need to hold our selves accountable. I'm not innocent either. My Twitter account has become too political, but I started it for ponies and Star Trek stuff. Using the Twi-Fi moniker, in part, makes me a representative of the fandom... as are all of us... but I'm also a political junkie. I think politics in ponies is okay... Just hear me out... It's already here, it seeped its way in one way or another. It won't do anyone any good to ignore it now. It's okay to have conversations, maybe someone's viewpoint can be shifted if approached the right way, maybe a new level of understanding can be reached. A way, I must admit, I have failed to do. Hence too political. I have backed off, knowing nothing good will come of it. I've become more aware of how I present things over the years instead of insulting someone. When this happens, people throw up their defenses and dig deeper into their preconceived notions and beliefs. It devolves into tearing people down to try and score points for "your team" so-to-speak. It devalues the person, boiling their worth down to a caricature, a straw-man. And then what are you left with?
I say this as caution, as warning, that staying on a destructive path will eventually end in a hate group like the alt-right, Proud Boys, et al (I don't want this to become a this group vs. that group dumpster-fire debate). If you are on the side of standing up to injustice, to inequality, and being a voice (an advocate) for the oppressed, I encourage you to frame your arguments and ideas thoughtfully, passionately, and not to divulge into ad-hominems. Maybe the veil can be lifted, with time, patience, and love. But, even the show has stated, not everyone is redeemable.
I've noticed it as well can't rightly say one way or the other. But people will hate one thing or the other. Hater will hated some can be turned it the right argument is used. Considering the source of the hate material or sources reporting it can help stop it.
FWIW, this is a big problem in furry fandom as well, and 4chan had nothing to do with our genesis.
Right now I think some of may actually be due to the extreme opinion polarization we're seeing in the US, not only on the right but also the left. I've seen a small but vocal number of people on the far left who will attack moderates and even other far-left people who question anything in the narrative they want to develop. Some of them also engage in kink-shaming, doxxing, and dogpiling on others without evidence. Young and impressionable furs who have been shamed and hurt in school and who also know next to nothing about human rights or politics will get caught in the crossfire when they express a naive opinion and get attacked in response.
That's when the far-right furs will come in and say, "Hay, did you get hurt by our intolerant fandom? Come spend time with us, we won't judge you. Our tent is big enough for everyfur, and you're always welcome." It's exactly what they want to hear, because they actually have been judged unfairly by that minority on the far-left of the fandom, and what made them interested in the fandom in the first place was it was supposed to be a tolerant and accepting place.
What they don't realize is that they're actually going to be groomed for far-right extremism. The "tolerant" thing is an act used by racists and neo-Nazis, and the "tolerance" ends up being a tolerance for any kind of joke or insult, which at first are done "ironically" just to show how open they are to anything when they start making fun of black people and Jews... but eventually end up being backed by legitimate and awful racist ideology.
It's a huge fucking mess. I don't know how to do anything about it. I have friends whom I've seen turn against other friends at the slightest provocation, and my whole country is like this now. There are people I care about who I can't tell that my electrologist is a Trump supporter, or they'll block me and tell other people to block me as well, despite having known them well for years. Everypony has an axe to grind and feels justified up to and beyond the point of violence toward others with whom they disagree.
It's a nightmare and even thinking about it makes me feel terrible inside.
5285680
I haven't seen too many far-left attack dogs in this fandom (I've seen them in the general sense all over though). Plenty of normal "leftists" here though. I'm probably far-left by American standards, so center-left at best by the rest of the world. But that is only what I've observed... There are also people who are non-political who fall into conspiracy groups and toxic fans in general. When I say alt-right I'm not necessarily speaking about right-wing and left-wing in the political sense. I guess socially?
But you far more succinctly described the radicalization and how people become part of that so easily better than I did. You are right, that is one of the cycles in the online communities.
As for the furry fandom I know very little about. I can tell that in the Star Trek fandom it's slightly different, maybe because it spans a much wider range of people. But we have more of the toxic fans or gate-keeper fans who will tell you to your face you're not a real Trekkie because you like one of the less popular films/shows or because you are new to the fandom. I've seen the same in Star Wars, maybe even worse because that poor girl Kelly Marie Tran who played Rose in The Force Awakens was bullied to no end for her character... a character she had no part in creating or writing. If you don't like the movie or the character, fine, but FFS there's no need for that. She didn't do anything wrong.
Maybe it's just everywhere, and MLP has been wrapped up into it because everyone is so polarized. Encouraging community and remaining positive to others are the only things I can think of to keep us from falling apart.
Another thing I've wondered about is what if everyone just stopped thinking of things in terms of left versus right? What if everyone just thought about progress? Maybe most people aren't as divided on the issues as they believe, and they're just stuck inside the framing of an ideology?
It's just a thought...
5285679
I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure 'the right argument' is as important as reaching someone first. When they're willing to listen, then yes. Getting to that stage is the tricky part though. And to reach someone you yourself have to willing to listen too, it works both ways and there is no easy answer.
Welcome to the herd. Intolerance is an existential threat to a tolerant society.
With all due respect, I believe that you should pay a little less attention to the drama in all sorts of mass media. The world is in a difficult place. On top of all of our old problems we now have the pandemic. Some people lost their loved ones. A lot of people lost their jobs and any hope for a bright tomorrow. Many states demonstrated how they lack any 'safety net' for this kind of thing. And, of cource, 'free and independent, free from any bias whatsoever' mass media are always happy to bring more gasoline to fuel the fire.
I believe that it's not as bad as you think. This fandom is made of people. And a lot of people are currently in a bad place. Even the best of us can act irresponsibly online from time to time. Not to mention that a lot of these guys are not actually bronies, I'm sure. To them, pony avatar is like a trolling amplifier.
It means to love the MLP and share this love with others.
I'd say that's it, and expecting more from your fellow fans is ill-adviseable. I've seen quarells errupt over this. You don't have to attend anyone's political rally or confirm to someone else's beliefs just because you love ponies.
I'm quite sure that is the case. Don't forget that there are crazies on the other side of the spectrum, and they've been very vocal for a while. For every psycho who calls themselves 'left' there would be a pushback from someone calling himself 'right'. It's somewhat inevitable.
Please, don't take this the wrong way, but what is it with you westerners and this 'pride' thing?
Some people love to watch MLP. Some are men, some are women. Some people are gay. Some people have brown eyes, some people are born in Scotland (Russia/US/<your country here>). This is trivial facts which is hardly a basis for any sort of pride. I like what late George Carlin have said about the subject: 'Don't be proud, be happy...'
I think it's always been here. As I've said, fandom is made out of people, and people are constantly affected by politics, even if they deny it at try to run from it. We can't really help it, we bring with as the baggage which is part of us.
That's not entirely true, sorry. Diversity on its own doesn't bring much. Worst of all, it's turned into a marketing trend by now. A colorful window display. A lot of goverments and police forces around the world are etnically diverse now. Their conduct hardly changed, however. We've seen a lot of 'diversity' done poorly in movies, videogames, books etc. It brought little to the table, but gave biggots A LOT of political points. It turned a lot of good people away. Educating people (i.e. promoting good ideas) is a huge responsibility. Do it wrong and it may backfire very, very badly.
People have to be honestly united around the good idea. I live in the country which used to be the Soviet Union, one of the most diverse states in the world. When united, there was little that we couldn't do. But when we let petty politics to divide us we were doomed, and our diversity became our tombstone. It's the people who matter. Who they are, what they know, not their skin, language, etc...
Sadly, modern pseudo-left politics are very divisive. Instead of uniting around our similarities, we fight over our diferences. Meanwhile, the ideas you so worried about become popular.
Stay safe out there, friend.
5285712
To true.
A good blog post, I think; thank you for making it.
5285680
In a blog I follow, the term "ctrl-left" was coined to be a counterpart to "alt-right". Unfortunately, both are pretty significant problems in the United States at the moment, and despite being opposed to each other, they also, as you say, can feed each other.
5285705
"Another thing I've wondered about is what if everyone just stopped thinking of things in terms of left versus right? What if everyone just thought about progress? Maybe most people aren't as divided on the issues as they believe, and they're just stuck inside the framing of an ideology?"
Progress, depending on what exactly you mean by the word, is also an ideology, but I do like the point I think you intended to make. Yes, one group of shouting people set the ship on fire and the other punched a bunch of holes in it, but perhaps rather than trying to decide which group of shouting people is better, we should deal with the fact that the ship is on fire and sinking, and they're both responsible for part of it?
I appreciate this post and appreciate you making it.
I'd urge you to maybe think again about "too political," though. All art is political. As you say, the show is highly political in taking a stance for acceptance and diversity - and that stance can't accept intolerant fascist and alt-right stances. (I assume you know the Paradox of Tolerance but if anyone reading this doesn't, I highly encourage looking it up.)
There's a reason "keep politics out of X" is a rallying cry basically exclusively of the alt-right, and that's because it only helps them. They have ages of experience couching their garbage in dog-whistles, cultural tropes, and plausible deniability, then reaching out in private to people they think they can radicalize and bring into their own, highly political, spaces.
Of course practice self-care if you need to. Keep yourself in the fight. If you need a space for you that tries to distance from this stuff, that's understandable and totally good. But from reading your post it sounds like you think keeping fan accounts non-political furthers the goal of fostering accepting communities. I have been working in community creation for a long time (I'm a tabletop game store owner and event organizer), and my spaces have only become better and more diverse as I became louder about how important that is. And as I've become more bold in telling off or banning people who act against it.
Anyway, gonna stop before I wall of text more. I appreciate that you're in the fight either way. Thanks for being here.
5285727
This, just all of this.
Fascists and literally anyone who opposes fascism are not morally equivalent.
5285866
I'm not entirely sure how the comic relates to the blog post or my comment. As amusing as it is...
When it comes to things like these, we can blame the CIA, the KGB, the Illuminati or the Aliens as much as we want. Funny thing: they might even be involved. But it's not like there were no problems for them to exploit.
There is a proverb: 'There is a grain of truth in every joke'. I often heard (and use myself) the other version: 'In every joke there is a grain of joke'.
Thank you all for contributing, this has been great, and I am extremely pleased people have responded with good well thought-out points. If you have more to add, keep going.
5285727
I sure hope so.
Ha! Not sure if it's a westerners thing or uniquely American thing. I do love George Carlin. But in that particular bit, I believe Carlin was making fun of those 'proud to an American" idiots who've contributed nothing and were just born in America. Whereas immigrants, who had to deal with our very shitty immigration system, have something to be proud of: getting through that nightmare. I was using the term of taking pride in having built something. Or contributed to a community being built. Either way, I am happy.
...
Yes good point. However, I didn't fully explain diversity as I wasn't strictly using it to mean including POC or LGBT, that's one aspect. I was using to mean people a different backgrounds and schools of thought who help shape a community.
that was what I was getting at and didn't express it succinctly as I should have.
Indeed. Especially in the US, the framing of left and right ideologies are skewed and have been drifting further and further right since the late 70s (there about). This is a piece of a much bigger conversation though.
5285760
I was referring to progress being necessary for a society. I guess progress could be an ideology like the progressive movement. But I was thinking about the fact that we are seeing something that looks a lot like the turbulent 1960s. Don't get me wrong, a lot of good things came out of the era for progress: civil rights act, voting rights act, etc. But look what it took to get those things and look what it took to get the idea of law enforcement reform to be taken seriously? It's just frustrating that after 200 years certain groups have a long and bloody history fighting for the rights they deserve and are entitled to.
Getting off on a tangent here... sorry. My main point or thought is if removing the "this is a left-wing idea" and "this is a right-wing idea" we'd probably find that most people aren't as hyper polarized as they appear. Maybe not.
5285853
Yes! Exactly. All art is indeed political. Maybe I was being hypercritical of my own Twitter presence?
Not exactly. I advocate people be political and bring it to the table. I'm advising caution in how topics and people are approached since we are in a time of hyper polarization/culture war. I believe a big reason for this divide is from keeping politics out of things.
I've been saying this for years, literal years.
5286247
Sounds like we are agreed, and of course there's a line to be walked. But at least making it clear that those who are intolerant are unwelcome seems to me like the good kind of politics to keep in everything. Obviously putting long essays about wealth redistribution or tax structures or what have you on a pony blog is likely a "but this s a Wendy's" level of too much.
But I think you're right that it's easy to be hypercritical about our own stuff. I think it's likely that if you keep the focus you intended, though, an occasional well-motivated digression will only drive away people you're just as happy without.
Some works of art are more political than others.
I've seen a few podcasts from people who get very upset about the statement you repeated (Nerdrotic for example). And I can see their point. While good art deals with issues in life (and, therefore, might get political), the art we usually consider the best is the classics, something that can stand the test of time. But politics are always changing to adapt to new challenges. A lot of politics are now distant history. 'Richard III' might have been a very political play when it was written, but you can hardly view it as one now (the struggle for the crown of England is way behind us by now). Works of fiction set during World War II can be viewed from political angle, but they usually focus on drama and tragedy in people's lives. Most comedies are not tied to any politics directly (political satire being it's own sub-genre).
I think part of the reason why My Little Pony became so popular is that the show is not very political. It deals with very basic things when it's at its best. Basic lessons about dealing with other people. About friendship. Ponies were scared of Zecora because they let their fear of the unknown and unusual get the better of them, not because there were some bad anti-zebra politics in Equestria. Zecora could have been a kirin, a human, etc... In a very political work changing her origin would have been a huge deal.
I remember being very upset when I first heard the 'Vote for Pip' song because it seemed a lot closer to modern politics than necessary. Then again, the show pleasantly surprised me: just getting 'the right candidate' elected didn't magically resolved the problem how CMC wanted. So the episode had a much better lesson for all audiences than I expected. I still cringed at the 'elections = good, must vote' message of the song.
There is a problem with that idea. At the start of the XX century some people believed that progress is a simple, linear thing. The further we go into the future, the better everything is. But at this day and age, we know that things have to be viewed in context. What some might consider 'progress' could be seen differently by others. Progress in one area might mean a decline in another. So you have to be specific if you want to reach out to people. In Russia we often joke about activists who are 'for evrything good and against everything bad'. Good plan might bring good results. Good intentions might lead you to hell.
5286247
"I was referring to progress being necessary for a society. I guess progress could be an ideology like the progressive movement."
Ehhh I think we could potentially have a debate there, but to be honest I'm busy at the moment and kind of don't want to risk it becoming a long and unpleasant Thing right now; it'd also, I think, be getting off track.
"Getting off on a tangent here... sorry."
Eh, I think I started that one. :D
"Getting off on a tangent here... sorry. My main point or thought is if removing the "this is a left-wing idea" and "this is a right-wing idea" we'd probably find that most people aren't as hyper polarized as they appear. Maybe not."
And aye, that seems plausible, at least. I think a lot of it is what the faction stands for, but a lot of it is also both sides (moreso the "mainstream American left" at the moment, I think, though it might just be that, as I'm closer to them, I see more of that than the internal dynamics of the right) having a "with us or against us" problem. "This proposal might at first seem to be a good idea, but we have to remember that it came from The Other Side, and therefore must be bad."
(You might find this podcaster interesting, by the way.)
5286621
"There is a problem with that idea. At the start of the XX century some people believed that progress is a simple, linear thing. The further we go into the future, the better everything is."
Yep, not regretting following you. :)
(Your paragraph that quote's from isn't quite how I look/was above looking at it, but same sort of thing, I think. Lowercase-p progress towards or away from specific things exists, but capital-P Progress, the natural order of the world being that things are steadily getting better over time (for an oft-insufficiently-examined definition of "better"), well, I think a major part of the current troubles of our society is that widely-held belief, and particularly its current, or at least recent, form running up against a wide selection of current events that don't fit.)
(...This being the sort of thing I didn't want to risk getting into above, hopefully it doesn't turn into a Big Thing now, but oh well...)