The Foalcon Question · 9:35pm Jun 7th, 2020
We've been thinking on and around this subject pretty much our entire creative careers, so it's inevitable that we'd decide to try and talk about it eventually.
You could, if so inclined, break the topic of 'foalcon' down into a number of subsidiary inquiries. "Is foalcon morally reprehensible" is one that comes up often, neighbour to "are foalcons closet/uncloseted pedophiles" or "do digital/fictional representations of underage sexuality result in more instances of predation from those so inclined". When you're talking about morals, it's hard to substantiate much, but for what it's worth, the majority of literature we've ingested on the subject of repressed sexual tendencies suggests that the majority of 'youth-attracted' individuals cognizant of their affectation either won't physically offend, or will seek treatment for their proclivities with the understanding that an attraction towards underage individuals should never be enacted. We'll go dig through the literature if the sources and statistics to these claims are important or contentious, but it seems at least the first premise we can grant is "foalcon /=/ pedophilia" in a direct way.
But what if it does?
For one, what is anyone doing writing sexual stories about underage participants? It's a strange, almost completely anomalous wormhole that Fimfiction still allows these types of stories, especially as 'babyfur' circles have closed under the speculation that content of this type is either borderline illegal or leads to neighbouring illegal behaviour. Once again, we don't have immediately available hard statistics to support this viewpoint, but it seems another easily illustrated premise: "availability of sexual material of this type leads easily to concurrent types of media". Eg. if you hang out in a place where people are sharing foalcon content, you're probably going to be exposed to a lot more the longer you hang around there.
Possibly there's no elegant segue to this part, but growing up, the first sexual media we ingested all involved fictional underage participants. The first piece of porn we ever saw was of Lisa and Bart Simpson trying to hide an incestual tryst under their blankets. The first stories we read were about teenagers fucking, likely wish fulfillment that had found itself vomited into an online story repository. At the advent of websites available for the hosting of these stories, it's very likely a lot of the emergent content was mutually underage participants vomiting out their fantasies and sharing them with the rest of the world. Based on grammatical function and overall content, we wouldn't hesitate to venture that at least 50% of these types of stories, especially in the 'incest' subgenre, were written by underage participants. Fimfiction has a similar issue with its 'porn' category, from what we've heard behind the scenes.
For us, almost all the appeal of a 'foalcon' or 'dubious-age-of-consent' story is its realism. Our upbringing since day one has been muddied with repression, negligence, abuse, and a lack of any real guidance to steer us on a correct path in life. All the bits we've turned around, we tracked down by ourselves. In underage sex stories, we mostly see a reflection of ourselves, or a hundred other versions of ourselves, dysfunctional individuals who didn't receive a proper sexual upbringing and are now exercising their hidden desires and fantasies in a contained environment. Possibly they feel a lot of themselves in characters learning about sex for the first time. Possibly they feel sex is normal and natural and shouldn't be so taboo as to remain almost completely unspoken of in polite company until the end of high school. Possibly there are even further, more contentious opinions hoisted on this particular flagpole, many of them related to age of consent laws and sexual education reform. Possibly all of these desires are just roundabout ways to orchestrate fucking children. In our view, certainly not, but we'd be worried if that were so.
We don't find kids physically attractive, nor have we ever. When we were in middle school, the girls we liked were mostly the ones who'd bloomed early and opened up about sex long before anyone else in the class had hormones preparing them to think of it. In high school, we liked partners who made us feel valuable and competent. Going forward, that's been a constant. Having a relationship with someone much younger than you is kind of a cheat to feeling competent, it ensures a power dynamic that skews the relationship in an unhealthy and unpredictable way. While there are insufficient legal protections and understandings of sexual power dynamics, we believe that age of consent laws should be mostly left alone.
Possibly there's no roundabout conclusion. We feel an urge to reiterate previous points and generally be paranoid of someone accusing of us being a practicing pedophile. I guess when you write pony porn on the internet, though, you're not setting a very high standard for your ego barrier.
If you wanna call us a pedophile, you can. We'll try to explain why we're not, but at least it could turn into a discussion.
Any other thoughts on the subect are welcome. We realize this is a contentious subject. Please do your best to be respectful if commenting or replying to the comments of others.
Bless. <#
Only inasmuch as any other fantastical depictions of illegal and/or immoral acts are. We seemingly don't bat an eye at murder, and only bat half of one at mass genocide. You could call this sort of thing reprehensible, but then you'd have to at least partially concede the others as well.
Personally, as a purveyor and producer, allow me to say no, far from it. I strongly dislike actual kids. I barely like being around them because I'm a being of little patience, and my impulsive reactions are often negative when it comes to developing minds. I would never dream of even having kids, let alone spending time with them. I just don't like them at all. Maybe that makes me a terrible, petty person. But it also means that if I ever caught myself sexually idealizing a young one in the same way I do fillies and foals, as alluded to in this post, I would absolutely drop everything and have myself committed to therapy, despite the risks. I would be more a risk to others than the (admittedly awful, usually) system would be to me. God help me if these fantasies ever became even a hint of wanting them to be reality. But I don't ever plan to make this so, because what one engages in fantasy and what one engages in real life are not necessarily congruent.
You pretty much hit two nails on the head there. Fantasy is a safe place to explore those moments of wonder and what-ifs that society does not provide. Do I think kids should be doing the sort of things they do in foalcon? For the most part, absolutely not. But I don't agree with the immediate head-shaking, lying, and discouragement that goes on now either. It is normal, it is natural, and I don't think we should be brow-beating everyone from age 10 that it's something so dirty and wrong that they have trouble even engaging in it for recreation's sake. Peeking into a world where this isn't the case is a somewhat pleasant escape for me.
I can't hit the upvote button enough. God, kids are kinda ugly when you look at it. The only real advantages fillies and colts have is that cuteness is baked into their design; to make a physically unappealing filly or colt, you kind of have to try to do so, most of the time. That's why I consider them a different world to actual children. That, and yknow...they aren't real. There's no psychology to mess up when writing and looking at things that don't actually exist.
Those are mostly my thoughts. They can be distilled down to "it's fantasy, god no it is not related to children themselves, I actually kinda hate them, and while you may think it reprehensible, there must be other things you should probably consider reprehensible as well if this is the case".
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thanks very much for making these points and sharing yr thoughts/feelings/opinions <3
You've written stories about human and filly fucking, you must be a pedophile. If you had written humanXpony clop, you must be doing bestiality in real life. If you had written a story where someone is killed, you would be a murderer. If you had written a story where protagonist gets raped or rapes someone, you must be a rapist in real life.
This logic annoys me.
It's just fanfiction.
I love the nuanced take on the matter. This is actually the second nuanced take on the subject I've seen, the first one though was slightly more... not honest but they understood their context better. They were an open pedophile, or rather a hebephile. But not a pederast. As you said, they were ones that recognize it and do what they can to not do anything. Their own work on the subject was a way to safely work through the feelings. I think that skewed my view. Art is in many cases a catharsis, to confront thorny internal views and purge the angst via creation. So to some degree I tend to think the public art of a creator is what they are and what they want to exorcise from themselves. But that's just from a long time of seeing people who use art in this way. Maybe you don't. But I also find artists are free to not make things, especially if they can't "vibe" with it. I know me. I could never write sexual hard gore, or scat, or really hard misogyny and gynocide. Even if paid. So when people do it, they have to have the tolerance or inclination for it. I don't know. Spitballing here.
Good, cogent, nuanced point.
Hmm, I guess I can say something that might be interesting, though generally, I agree with this.
Personally, I came to enjoy dark stories involving young as if written well it can be very interesting to see the fall and/or rise of certain aspects, what captures this the most on Fimfiction, is Forbbiden Fruit, as that truly captured the fall of someone, and the rise of someone new, who is disgusted with himself, but can no longer ignore (or in his case get around) it.
I have come to love messed up or generally dark things, not so sexually, but mentally, I tend to find it exciting, like a thriller or a roller coaster ride. It may even make me angry, get my blood pumping, and I find that interesting, and or entertaining, as I rip away why I felt that. Hearing others it can be very intriguing to hear what they say, though I know generally this is a poor idea and never do it. People are limited in perception at times.
Either way, I know this might sound like I am insane, but I am pretty certain I am only a little crazy.
Long as you don't do it irl, I'm fine wid it
I'll say the same thing I always do.
It's not REAL, who cares? The problem with actual CP is that it necessarily involves putting real kids in inherently harmful sexual situations.
It's not because thinking of kids in a sexual manner is illegal. This isn't 1984; there is no thoughtcrime. It's illegal to expose children to sexual situations before they are old enough to consent (and, therefore, not children).
Playing a video game wherein you murder someone isn't murder. Making a movie about a bank robbery isn't robbery. Drawing a child isn't harmful to a real child.
They're just not the same!
i think the major issue is fimfic's inability to filter out that type of content. Like it's easy to say to someone who is disturbed or possibly even triggered by this content that they shouldn't consume it but as of now fimfic doesn't give people the option to individually filter out specific kinks and the such.
i think the best solution is to create:
1) A red-tag for foalcon (like AO3 has)
2) Create an interface where you can block individual red-tags from showing up for you (kind of like a more sophisticated version of the mature filter)
i think that would offer the best compromise as it gives the people disturbed by it the way to stop seeing it and it saves the authors who are producing it from the barrage of dislikes from the former.
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i do disagree with you in this regard, TBH. i do believe our media does impact us, just not in the jarring manner of "violent video games make you violent"
Let's discuss Call of Duty, since you brought it up Scout.
i grew up in that cohort of late millenials/early zoomers who went through their teenage years playing military shooters which often glorify the military and i do believe that did have an effect on people. Like in my graduating class there were five students who immediately joined the Canadian Armed Forces and i knew for a fact three of them did it because of Call of Duty.
As for pornography, i do believe that consuming it can desensitize individuals to graphic content and normalizes it. Look at how 50 Shades and the growing commonness of BDSM in media has seen a rise in people who actively engage in BDSM.
Do violent video games make us violent? Probably not.
Does gay porn make us gay? No
But do militarized shooters create soldiers? That's a bit more debatable.
And does BDSM porn make people into BDSM? Also a bit more debatable.
As far as I'm concerned they are separate things, one is not indicative of the other, sure there is crossover, as an example someone we are all familiar with, some bronies are furries and vice versa, but one doesn't equal the other, they are there own separate thing with common elements, it is also important to remember that fantasy doesn't equal reality, I have a vore fetish and in the realm of fantasy I find it incredibly appealing, reality however is completely different, it would be opening up a whole bag of fuck this shit I'm out, and as for it making people interested in the reality, just because you drank alcohol doesn't make you an alcoholic, other life factors plus alcohol makes you an alcoholic, just because foal/lolicon highlighted there like in the reality, doesn't mean it wasn't there, it was always there, they just didn't know it
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The thing is, that's speculative at best. You can say it makes you more receptive to porn with real kids, but do you have any actual evidence to support that?
I know that I, as with most people, have very hard limits that divide what I'm into from a fantasy standpoint and what I would consider doing in real life. They just aren't comparable.
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What i was trying to say is that the argument that media doesn't influence us is a lot more grey and complex than "violent video games don't make us violent".
Am i say that everyone who is into foalcon is going to end up a pedophile down the road? No, of course not.
But just dismissing something as fiction and fantasy, and saying it has no real world consequences or impacts also feels wrong to me.
In the end I still think the best course of action fimfic could take is what i laid out in my first post.
If liking clop isn't bestiality, then liking foalcon isn't pedophilia.
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The problem with your video game and BDSM, as far as video games concerned it's actually proven that violent video games do in fact reduce violent tendencies of people as a whole, You just don't hear about it because that's not the answer the people who commission the studies want to hear, and as for BDSM more people are talking about it not necessarily mean more people doing it.
Edit
don't get me wrong the violent videogame analogy does work, but in favour of foal/lolicon
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Did you read the first part of my argument mentioned here: 5280628
i already said violent video games don't make you violent. my argument is that artistic mediums impact us, it's just that this impact is more nuisance than "violent video games make us violent".
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So your entire position is a new tag for the site? A little off topic don't you think, I mean I don't disagree, but still
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v - This One
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Yeah that's the one I was talking about, but then you said the first one, the first one is about tags, But anyway
"But do militarized shooters create soldiers?" No, militaries make soldiers, but it does make make them easier to train, and 5% more likely to succeed.
"Do violent video games make us violent" definitely not the opposite has been proven.
And "graphic content" is an overgeneralise turned to be used as an example, if you want to break it down to violence, fictitious violence does not desensitise you to real violence, it has proven time and time again, the human brain is capable of detecting it's not real.
The only other thing I can draw from what you're saying can be summed up like this,
Does a cookie commercial make you want to buy cookies, well yes, after all you like cookies.
Does it have an influence, of course, but it's a far cry from buying cookies to committeeman an egregious crime, the biggest differences is someone is telling you to buy the cookies, no one is telling you to commit a crime.
I'm failing to see your point, beyond the obvious that everyone already knows.
Is also worth bearing in mind that >1% of the Human population are medically psychopaths, a far bigger number than most people realise.
Personally, as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I read foalcon stories as a coping mechanism. The best way to deal with that kind of pain is to fap to it, then it can never hurt you.