May
5th
2018
Points of Canon: S8x08 - The Parent Map · 6:18pm May 5th, 2018
This was a bit unexpected. Also, if I’m correct, it makes the second episode centered on the issues of divorce, but more on that below.
- Chronological markers: For no good reason whatsoever, we have an establishing shot with an operational School of Friendship, setting this after School Daze, but otherwise, the episode contains nothing allowing us to set it before or after any other Season 8 episode to date.
- We are treated to yet another non-uniform mailpony uniform. This one is worn by a crystal pony in a non-crystal state. Compare to the mailpony uniform seen in Games Ponies Play.
- It is customary to tip mailponies with food in the Crystal Empire – the first recipient of a letter gives him a carrot. This is not payment for the postage, as the letter transferred in this transaction has a postage stamp. Sunburst does not do this, which annoys the mailpony.
- The mailpony knows Sunburst by name, which implies closer interaction between mailponies and recipients than you would expect in a large city like that.
- “Whinham’s Guide to Magical Arcana” is some manner of a magic theory book. “Whinham” is, therefore, a magic theorist of note.
- Sunburst closes the door by magicking the outer handle, rather than the inner one. Notice that Starlight also does this on occasion.
- The pile of letters in Sunburst’s home contains a huge number of letters – at least 50, possibly a hundred. That’s some persistence. Also, a sign that his mother writes letters effortlessly: It takes a lot less effort to accumulate the same number of unanswered phone calls, which is something I’m sure people in my audience have observed at least on occasion.
- “Could I be experiencing the cerebration transmogrification effect described in chapter seventeen—?” I wish this line was useful. But it isn’t. Notice, though, that Sunburst first notices a sensation he does not bother to describe, and then realizes that his cutie mark is glowing.
- “Nopony outside of Ponyville has ever been called before.” Since we’re likely to see more episodes where ponies from outside of Ponyville will be summoned, this is likely to become a chronology marker.
- Sire’s Hollow is the town where Sunburst and Starlight originate. It’s very difficult to match its position on the Cutie Map to the regular map, but since Sunburst and Starlight are looking at the map from the direction of a polar icecap, I think the place should be somewhere west-northwest of Canterlot. Which would put it somewhere around Unicorn Range.
- Train conductors go around checking tickets. Not a given.
- “She sends me letters constantly asking about my plans for the future. ‘You’re a grown-up pony, Sunburst! You need a plan!’ I haven’t been home in a while either.” Notice that while Stellar Flare keeps insisting Sunburst get closer to the Princess of Friendship throughout the episode, apparently, Sunburst failed to notify his mother that he is essentially serving an arguably more senior princess already, being the Royal Crystaller. He never tells her anyway, despite the reconciliation.
- “Welcome to Sire’s Hollow!” This is obviously a recording. The specific technology it is accomplished with is undefined. Notice that the wall apparently surrounds the entire town, which is pretty much unheard of.
- “Essence?” We very rarely see ponies use perfume. The only time I caught one that remained in my notes is Rarity in Keep Calm and Flutter On. That said, it’s probably a practice more widespread than observed.
“The Sire’s Hollow Development Committee determined what it is.” “Our bookstore’s been declared a site of historical significance by the Sire’s Hollow Preservation Society.”
Now, I’m not sure which is it:
- Townships are legally empowered to do that sort of thing, which is far from a given and very American.
- Stellar Flare and Firelight are empowered to do this because they basically own a side of the street each.
So which? The episode doesn’t quite make it clear whether the ideological conflict perpetuates on political or economic grounds, and contains arguments in favor of either.
- “Dad, you promised no ‘pumpky-wumpkins’ in public!” I wonder when exactly did he do it that Starlight remembers that instantly. When was the last time she’s been to Sire’s Hollow? Probably, after her defeat…
- “Our village needs the same thing you do, Sunburst – a clear plan for the future.” And then she immediately tries to cut his beard off. Does she carry scissors at all times on the off chance she might get to cut a beard off?… Also, cartoon resolution: The scissors appear out of nowhere and vanish likewise, and so does the scroll with her plans.
- Starlight is capable of effortlessly lifting both parents when they’re on the opposite sides of a fairly wide street. Which is not surprising at all, but bears remembering.
- “One hundred percent ancient pony grains! Just like the town founders ate! Hope you like crust!” Compare to dwarf bread: Even earth ponies have problems chewing it, it’s so heavy that a cart falls apart under the weight, and the picture of town founders makes a show of missing teeth. That said, I wonder what kind of grains “ancient pony grains” are.
- The picture of town founders is in color. Which implies the town was actually founded very recently, in historical terms, and is at the very least far more recent than Ponyville, where the Apple family archives contain a lot more sepia-toned black-and-white photos. Which makes both Firelight and Stellar Flare more than a bit disingenuous.
- “Oh, look at the time!” Sunburst looks at a conspicuously missing wristwatch on his right foreleg. Is he left-hoofed?
- “Mom, there isn’t a time limit.” Sunburst is correctly aware of many, but not all details of cutie map missions, and has, apparently, been aware from the start, judging by how he knew what a glowing mark means. I wonder when exactly did he learn all that.
“You can stay in your old room, punky-wunk! It’s just like you left it!” Starlight’s room, abandoned an undetermined number of years ago, contains:
- An electric guitar. Only three strings are visible, but it’s a six-string, definitely electric guitar. An amp to go with the guitar.
- A unicorn plushie. EDIT: As pointed out by Fylifa, it’s actually an alicorn with bat wings. Which shifts the tone of the whole room towards straight up metal, rather than punk or goth.
- Multiple books with bookmarks, content unclear.
- Two posters, neither are recognizable, but both depict ponies. Numerous stickers with skulls of unclear species, at least one of them luminescent.
- Very interesting, stylish boots that don’t look like they go with Starlight’s mane.
- An eye, two skulls of unclear species, one of which is horned. Presumably props.
- A candle.
- A kite suspended from the ceiling, above the left poster. It’s difficult to tell what kind, but it’s most definitely a kite, rather than an open umbrella.
- A torn curtain that completely cuts off the window.
- An actual skateboard. See Twilight Time for some observations regarding scooter and skateboard technology, this is relevant.
There is other miscellaneous trash, but the overall impression is that of a rebellious teenager with punk/goth aesthetic. If I had to guess, I would say Starlight left home no later than when she was 15 or so. She did love kites by then, which could be important. Also, this dates electric guitars to earlier than you would expect, since by the time teenagers can have them, they have to be around for over a decade.
- Firelight is sufficiently versed in Sire’s Hollow history to give a lecture with no obvious preparation. That said, as I mentioned above, there probably isn’t a whole lot of it.
- “Maybe because we don’t like to cover our natural scent!” And then she lifts a foreleg and presents the, ahem, scent, shocking the perfume seller. Which is something to keep in mind, as previously, we’ve not seen ponies even mention each other’s natural scent, let alone be put off by it.
- “This is what happens when we don’t rehearse! Ugh!” Does this mean they pulled something of the sort before? On whom? Why?
- “I found a really old town bylaw that nopony agrees on. Apparently, we’re not supposed to prance or canter after dinnertime. Could that be the problem?” Pony towns can have bylaws. Which is not a given, and makes it slightly more likely that the conflict between Stellar Flare and Firelight perpetuates on political, rather than economic grounds.
- “My dad won’t even let me talk to anypony in case they’re ‘strangers.’” Which is a lot more paranoid than ponies typically are.
- “So we wanted to talk to all of you, you know, in private.” Starlight says, turning a lamp on with a pull-switch. This can only be electrical.
- For some strange reason, the bookstore contains two barrels.
- Firelight is quite spry for the expected age of ~50, he effortlessly hops off a ladder when at least two meters up.
- Starlight follows Fluttershy’s example by mysteriously falling over backwards without first rearing up.
- Stellar Flare makes notes regarding perfumes in total absence of the perfume seller, which makes it more likely that she owns this side of the street, instead of just applying political clout to re-zone it.
- “I just know how hard things were for you when you left home. I guess I wanted you to feel safe, like… when you were young.” This kind of implies Starlight simply ran away, doesn’t it?
- “I remember how lost you were when you flunked out of magic school.” We previously did not have an explicit statement that Sunburst flunked out of magic school. Now we do.
- “Not unless we solved a friendship problem every few seconds, and I kinda hope this one will be it for a while.” Unusually, instead of several brief flashes, the marks remain lit for at least a minute.
I hate guilt-tripping parents. Got my own set, thank you.
Some analysis
Notice that the only parents present in this episode are Sunburst’s mother Stellar Flare, and Starlight’s father Firelight, when we know that Sunburst, at least, also had a father at some point. When we see his parents in The Cutie Re-Mark, we can see the mother, from whom he inherits his unusual coloration, and the father, who is the origin of his mane color. See screenshot. The episode offers no indication whatsoever where the missing parents are.
However, here’s an idea:
- Sunburst gets his cutie mark.
- His overbearing mother insists he must proceed with a magic career, even though it’s pretty clear, that for all his thirst for knowledge, he isn’t really suited for one. This causes a rift between his parents, when Stellar Flare gets her way anyway, and causes Starlight’s heartache and subsequent goth phase.
- The rift eventually turns into a divorce: Hardly anything connected Sunburst’s parents, beyond Sunburst himself. Now that he’s away, they drift apart even faster.
- Eventually, Sunburst’s dad elopes with Starlight’s mom. Starlight is left entirely alone with her overbearing father, who even does his best to limit her acquaintances, and eventually, she leaves home, not leaving a forwarding address.
I.e. Starlight’s problem isn’t just that her friend got sent away because of a cutie mark. It’s that this cutie mark triggered a cascade, that destroyed two families and turned her life hell just when she was the least capable of dealing with it.
I think this theory makes Starlight’s friendlian excuse a lot more solid. Even though it neither excludes the Other Sith, nor makes one unnecessary, it at least makes her starting position a lot more plausible.
I can't say how much I love this 'cutie marks destroyed my family!' theory. It's less edgelord than my prior 'Starlight was an orphan fostered with Sunburst's family' theory, which, y'know, I'm usually up for edgy BS, but it's pony, not Warhammer 40K.
-Perfume was implied all the way back in Sweet and Elite, when Fancy Pants wonders what the scent Rarity is wearing is (it's cake frosting from Twilight's birthday, which, apparently, he can smell from a distance).
-How recently was Ponyville founded, anyway? If we're going by human terms, sepia-toned photos were popular around 1860 to 1920, and had largely been replaced by 1930 (source: https://www.sepia.org/sepia-toning-a-milestone-in-early-photography/). Most of MLP's technology (at least from S1 to S2, which I've been making my way through) seems to imply somewhere around the 1960s, which would a) finally make Granny Smith a mortal again and b) imply that Sire's Hollow is a very recent town, much like Appleloosa was back in Over a Barrel (according to Braeburn, who stated they had constructed it in only a year and had just finished).
-We've seen unicorns summon objects a rare few times, mostly Rarity and Trixie - they simply poof into existence, surrounded by a magical field. This (presumably) wasn't in this episode, but it's a possible explanation for where Sunburst's mom got the scissors.
-Does anyone else think that the governance system in Equestria gives mayors and other local-level political figures a great deal more power than they do in America? Celestia only seems to interfere when something catastrophic happens, like the parasprites back in Swarm of the Century. Apart from that, it seems like governors and mayors can do... just about anything.
Thato r the mailpony made a point of learning the name of the stallion who never tips him.
Can't say I blame Sunburst. Given Stellar Flare, this would probably just shift her focus to a different alicorn without changing anything else. Even after the reconciliation, there's no guarantee it wouldn't get her going again.
If I had to guess, I'd say rock farmers are involved. They are basically pony dwarves.
And begs the question of why the founders willingly ate food that did so much damage to their teeth. Could it be a painting? The smiles may put that in doubt, but it may not be a live portrait of the group.
I could definitely see Twilight discussing the mechanics of map missions with him at some point during "Uncommon Bond."
It says something when its the humans, not the ponies, who have magical, invisible amplifiers.
And that cascade theory is a thing of brilliance. Definitely linking to this blog in my own come tomorrow morning. Thank you for it.
4854228
Not entirely clear. Our primary yardstick is Granny Smith herself, which would be a very bad yardstick until Perfect Pear, where Bright Mac’s precise statement permits us to estimate a generation’s length directly – which comes out to about 25. Granny Smith is at least 75 and at most 100 years old, Ponyville is ~15 years younger than she is.
All over the place, actually. See RTAC #15 where I made a comprehensive review of everything I could find.
We have, but, for example, in Top Bolt, Rainbow also does this, which is why I say it’s just an example of cartoon resolution.
Considering the things I heard about how in certain places in USA, a community regulation might prescribe how one must decorate their lawn, I would say, no, not really, just about the same.
I really like the cascade theory as well. It does a lot to retroactively justify Starlight's villainous motivations better. And with all the evidence provided in the episode, I can almost believe that it was what the writer actually intended. I'll happily take it.
Actually a pretty good episode in general this week, at least in my opinion. First one I've enjoyed this much in a long while.
4854218 So that would make Starlight and Sunburst brother and sister, but not really brother and sister, so it's not creepy.
Really.
4854233
In "Tails of Equestria" exist a spell... "Creation", I think. It allows unicorns create devices and items directly from magic. Although it only exists as long a unicorn concentrating on it. "Tails" also an official MLP tabletop RPG so it's at least a partial canon.
Well, I'm not saying that it's exactly what we deal here with but an ability to "puff' items in existence exists in secondary canon.
Ugh, please don't tell me Equestria has US tipping culture.
Probably a combination of the food tipping and Sunburst receiving letters like every other day.
Given where he lives, the first tansformation I'd suspect him to expect would be becoming a crystal pony finally. The name could be a pun on the fact that such a transformation would probably be triggered by the Crystal Heart, which fires during celebrations. Aside from the obvious fact that whatever it is, it involves the brain.
Grant us eyes, grant us eyes! Plant eyes on our brains, to cleanse our beastly idiocy!
Her room would indicate she wasn't home in many years, and not for long enough to take down the decorations since she was a teen.
I think the implication is that they are simply physically as old as the town if not older.
Unless he completely disregards the word "friendship" in "friendship problem", Firelight's line about tracing development friendship problems from founding onwards suggests the possibility it's still mostly inhabited by its founders. Assuming his idea isn't completely off the rocker.
Probably the next time he got together with Starlight after she learned all the details.
Notably only two of them.
Given there's enough for him to have entire books of it, either he's insane and also had the photo colorized, or he includes a whole lot of history leading to the founding.
Doesn't follow, I think she just tried to convince them to rehearse this farce and they drew the line on that.
Ponies are pretty flexible.
Or the town owns it and she has enough clout to pretty much just dictate everything. The micro-managing, intrusive rule by committees that dictate whatever they want has a strong communist vibe. This would involve individual settlements having a lot of leeway in their internal political systems, which might not be too unusual given how many countries surrounding Equestria are city-states.
Or got in trouble with the law after she left, or just in trouble in general. Stalight is kind of hard to imagine staying out of trouble for long.
>Ponyville is ~15 years younger than she is.
15 is a pretty generous estimate of her age at the time, I thought about like 6-9.
4854262
What I've been going with was that Sunburst was the first friend she had and lost, and the only one she lost not of her fault. After that it was a pattern of Every Little Thing She Does type stunts driving others away until she came to a conclusion the problem was her and her talent. Either she recoiled from such a scary conclusion and changed it to special talents in general being a problem, or went ahead and removed her mark only to discover ponies would run away even faster from the freak she made herself into. Either way, her only path to true friendship lay in a society of the cutie markless. It helped that cutie mark based prejudice has good reasons to really exist in Equestria as a "meritocratic" face for classism/elitism, so she could convince herself she was solving a real problem ponies have.
Another chronology marker: Spike mentioned that he’s been on a Cutie Map mission before, and Twilight says that only happened once. The chronology marker placing this episode after “Triple Threat” is pretty redundant, but Twi’s comment specifies that Spike hasn’t had any further Cutie Map missions since then. If Spike ever gets summoned by the Map again, it’ll have to be after this episode.
The transcript on the wiki spells his name as Windham. I initially heard the name as Houyhnhnm, and I prefer that version, for obvious reasons.
Wind Rider’s cologne was a major clue in “Rarity Investigates”, so artificial scents aren’t just for mares.
4854354
Oh, she wouldn't refuse the spell of immortality to her father now, would she.
Since this postdates the movie, that's rather a given.
4854361
Well, this place is clearly a decent way removed from Canterlot. It wasn't involved in those events. And yes, ponies are regularly seen as that parochial and dumb.
A rather fun episode, especially for people who like to see more Starburst.
Of which he eats the whole thing, including the stem.
Up until quite recently mail carriers had dedicated routes. In a large city this could be a few neighborhoods. And it's fairly easy for mail carriers to learn people's names when they are delivering their mail.
Also note here that Sunburst's house looks a lot bigger than that little wizard hat-shaped shack he was living in in season 6. Being the royal nanny pays well.
Also fits with the theory that the map is only calling ponies who know about it.
I'm imagining somewhere near Portland. South of Vanhoover and Seaddle.
That one is really weird.
And it explicitly wasn't there before. Stellar has turned this town into a gated community.
I would wager this is the correct one. Both groups have the name of the town in them.
Also evidence wristwatches are a thing, I don't think we've ever seen them.
Probably in his correspondence with Starlight.
Not sure about that. The antiquities section is pretty big and the books about the town are pretty dusty. Is it possible the baker just pulled a Ted Turner and colorized that photo of the founders?
Yup.
I think this makes sense.
Here's another point I just picked up from Jordan179: Sunburst and Starlight are quite similar to the parents of their counterpart. Starlight's dad is a affable guy who loves reading, history and treats Starlight like a filly. Sunburst loves reading, antiquing and cares for a filly for his job. Sunburst's mom is domineering, trying to transform her town into this vision of the future she sees, and has huge control issues. Also at the end of the episode she's trying to figure out how to magically futz with Sunburst's cutie mark. Sound like anyone?
I think its interesting from a doylistic point of view that between these guys and Trixie's dad, every secondary character is allotted 1 parent, only the Mane 6 have enough budget for a double set.
Hey, if Starlight's dad eloped, I wonder if he ended up in Las Pegasus? I wonder if he became a magician...
4854231
"I wish I served you food so I could spit in it!"
4854228
I totally agree. Based on the Princess Summit, it looks like the M=mayor of a town also doubles as the congressperson. (Fancy Pants seems to be the Mayor and Representative of Canterlot at once).
4854527
On the other hoof, Starlight’s dad has difficulty remembering that his daughter is a little filly, and wants to preserve the past by turning the whole town into a museum. And as we saw in “Uncommon Bond”, Starlight herself has trouble accepting that her friendship with Sunburst has changed since they were foals, and wants to preserve that aspect of her past by using crazy magic to turn back the clock.
4854306
Mind you, it’s done by completely unrelated people who did less research than I did. Just sayin’. I’m of a mind to write my own sourcebook, only, I really don’t feel like doing all that work for some 20 people to play it and forget about it.
With certain unicorns, yes. The way non-unicorns behave exactly the same regarding random items has to imply that we don’t actually see simple bags.
4854319
Ponyville ponies don’t tip mailponies.
In fact, I think I never caught anyone tipping before, so this must be Crystal Empire-local. EDIT: Correction: Rarity tipped the porter in Made in Manehattan. In any case, this is rare.Can you imagine a visit that occurred after her defeat lasting long enough for her to even step into it? This one wouldn’t, if it weren’t for the Cutie Map. In fact, I think this one didn’t either.
Feuds between prominent families can be long-lasting and would very much qualify as friendship problems, so his idea actually isn’t off the rocker at all. Compare Apples vs. Pears in The Perfect Pear.
Four-shoes outfits are actually less common than two-shoes outfits.
At least 10, surely? Look at the flashback and compare to known teenagers.
4854348
Nice catch.
4854354
A hoofprint?
Presumably, he moved as soon as the Empire was restored, which was quite a while ago.
Looking at his outfit, and the way he was able to buy his daughter a bunch of expensive toys? I’d say quite wealthy.
They certainly don’t look very smart. Considering that Appleloosa is a themed tourist town founded by reenactors, a very special blend of crazy might have been at play here, but subsequently abandoned…
4854527
Actually, we have. Pinkie wears one in Baby Cakes, an examiner wears one in Cutie Mark Chronicles, Rainbow wears one in Too Many Pinkie Pies, Con Mane in MMMystery on the Friendship Express… It’s not an accessory seen often, and seems going out of fashion in favor of pocket watches, but it does turn up.
It is, but that would be the only case of this happening ever.
It’s also possible it’s actually a painting. But smiles, and the way it’s so tiny, make me think it’s quite unlikely.
…Damn, it really is Marmalade Boy gone wrong.
4854540
So they exactly like any other MLP episode writers? :).
And more serious - they no different from IDW crew in that regards. One of the IDW higher-ups on their forum stated that IDW crew have almost zero connection with show crew and show crew has no obligations to takes into consideration anything that IDW writes.
I also think that while their PRG system rather primitive their core book and bestiary full of nice little things that mesh with canon rather well. I'm especially fond of their idea that changelings are poor man's alicorns :).
Graham crackers were invented by a somewhat crazed temperance-vegetarian cult somewhere in the Burnt-Over District in upstate New York. Which, btw, was probably why they put Our Town northwest of Manehattan in the updated map - that region was full of wacky utopian-socialist and religious-fanatic colonies in the early 19th century.
I'm going to adopt your cascade theory as my headcanon for Starlight's past. It makes so much sense.
The staged nature of this "friendship problem" leaves makes the "natural" status of that aroma very questionable.
4854354
She may well be, depending on how her part of the Cutie Re-Mark went.
War is known to Starlight, and to, she expects, Sunburst. This line doesn't really imply much about anypony nor anyone else.
4854573
I thought that was just a necessity for replacing all three tribes, and having their odd energy requirements that Chrysalis hogged.
They're kind of like Daggerfall sorcerers, come to think of it: no natural mana intake, takes up energy in environment, unusually large capacity.
4854776
In "Tails" changelings are DnD bards. They can do little bits of everything - they can fly and cast spells. But at the same time they not as good at magic as unicorns, worse flyers that pegasi and while they have earth pony strength feat, this feat are of a lower grade so they not as strong as earth ponies.
Spotted something n the main thread that's worth considering:
4854796
So long as they're better at spells than pegasi and earth ponies, better fliers than unicorns (whoops) and earth ponies, and stronger than unicorns and pegasi…
Huh. That makes them more detectable in monoculture than in mixed-tribe settings.
4854802
Uh, no. They have rather weird shape-shifting mechanics - IIRC in transformed state they stats and talents match their disguise. So in pegasus disguise they lose ability to use magic and Stout Heart feat (earth pony strength feat).
4854808
Well, considering that even Chrysalis is not guaranteed to recognize transformed changelings as such, as per To Where And Back Again, that fits.
4854808
Are they limited to impersonating particular ponies they can presently see? One wonders why not impersonate a fictional pony, or a Pure Cover Identity. (Why not? Because that would effect their superiority for Three Tribes ponies.)
4854816
Rule book at this point kinda vague about how exactly their "Morph" works. Either they plan to release extended rules or they plan to push all question about fine mechanics on DM. There also a question if changelings can take talents from all tribes or not. So many questions :).
Oh, and changeling starts with talent (with exception of Morph) two level lower than ponies.
Haha, I actually feel physically uncomfortable after reading your last paragraphs about divorce and eloping.
My parents split when I was 7, my mother flat out said "My new BF only has room for one kid, and I'm taking the daughter." My dad assumed my mother would take both kids.
Sets a guy up with self esteem problems! Also my father was left depressed and is kind of a passive aggressive guy so his example was also not setting me up for being emotionally and socially well adjusted. I was a complete mess until I started therapy at age 31 ... despite my father being initially very "lol shrinks" dismissive.
Suffice to say, I never had too many problems assuming that Starlight must have had something fishy in her family background to be so bad at coping with the loss of a friend.
Your theory works for me.
A bit of an addition: does Starlight's dad have some Pie family genes? Because he pops out from behind Starlight the same way Pinkie would in his introductory scene, and later appears on the ladder despite not being there a couple seconds earlier in the wide shot.
Also, I personally think that the photo being in color is an oversight/animation error. It seems to be implied that the "town founders" aren't around anymore, and none of them are seen in the present day. It's been at least a few generations, long enough that the founders are all dead (or all in a nursing home off-screen).
I love this idea.