Is Luna Tiamat? · 3:14am Jun 3rd, 2017
I'm referring to the Tiamat from the ancient Babylonian myths, the god of the primordial chaos that grappled with order and from that sprang the act of creation.
Neither chaos nor order are creation themselves. But Night, the Unknown (the future), Dreams are all part of the primordial sea of chaos in a metaphysical sense and they're all in Luna's portfolio.
Celestia clearly represents order, the ordering of the self over all, but order nonetheless. And clearly Celestia and Luna are, not equals, because they have aspects different enough that declaring equality and non-equality is nonsensical, but complements. And order in and of itself only loses if it draws new order from itself, but if it orders chaos, it improves the world, and chaos is always infinite, because it's sort of the default state of the universe.
(Every entity is finite, therefore the box of things they can know and control is smaller than what exists, and everything outside that box can be considered chaos.)
So I'm thinking Luna represents that access to the primordial chaos that is, for lack of a better term, amenable to being ordered, although it's more true to say it's the parts of the infinite chaos that is closest to us. And Tiamat was the part of chaos that could be grappled with - not all of chaos. Because if you go out into the middle of chaos, where you can't see any order at all, that's hell. That's why I'm thinking the character of Luna is grasping as the same thing as Tiamat.
And if Luna is Tiamat then Luna is the god that punishes when you run up against reality the wrong way. Not when you make wrong choices that society doesn't accept but when you make wrong choices reality, or at least, the infinite chaos outside your knowledge, doesn't accept. Which may be what nightmares are for in the first place?
The alternative interpretation is that in the Christian Trinitarian view Celestia is the Father; the ordered and structured basis on which things are based; Luna is the Son, the active entity that goes out into the world and contends with the chaos of it. Which would, of course, mean Twilight is the Spirit, the spark of divinity within each individual here represented by friendship magic?
I'm kind of sleep deprived, maybe none of this makes sense.
Well, at a risk of sounding like a pleb, there IS one entity heavily representing Chaos. Creative Chaos, rather than destructive one, at that. AND complimenting/opposing Celestia as the representation of Order.
Although I suppose it's not so. Celestia is Order of self. But Discord isn't exactly her counterpart, not on the concept level. He's the untamed and barely restricted power of creation. Chaos of Self is actually Twilight, representing emotions and Friendship, more than Magic really. Or, you know, Friendship is Magic, as such ponies, powered by it as they are, are chaotic in their core and Discord is actually right about them. So Luna is... creative Order I suppose? Paint the sky
redpurplecotton candywith stars and guide the sailors and such.It's a fun, thoughtful interpretation on Luna's place in the grand metaphysics. But, the sphere of Chaos already has a patron entity milling about. They could be rivals, in a sense, or represent different flavors of chaos; one being amenable to order (as you put it) and the other fighting it (though less so, lately).
Internally, I think of our Alicorns as "two above, two among, and two below." The "below" bit obviously has no hard basis in canon yet, but I like patterns, and we're only one drunken mistake away from another Alicorn baby. And given that one of Flurry's earliest acts was one of potentially catastrophic destruction, I'm okay with tentatively keeping the idea of Flurry and her future brother/sister/cousin/whatever being the patrons of the less fluffy parts of Equestrian metaphysics. This is all thinking about the wider canon and not your Apothe-verse specifically, so do forgive me for rambling.
Where were we? Right, chaos and Tiamat. It's a solid interpretation.
The thing is that Discord is pretty explicitly the bad part of chaos. It's in his name. It's not potentiality, he's simply the destruction of existing order for the sake of the destruction of order. That's why he's a demon...he's from metaphysical hell.
So Cadence is the devil then, right? :B Or is she just Echidna?
A really interesting thought, and it does fit. But the problem is Discord. He is the _Spirit_ of Chaos and Disharmony. He embodies the un-controllable far more so than Luna does. Could it be that, if we adopt this viewpoint, that where Luna represents it and is the "Punisher", Discord is a living manifistation of it? Luna represents the primordial sea of chaos. Discord is that Sea. Or at least a part of it come to conciousness.
4556858 The chaos I'm talking about is "in the beginning the world was without form and void." This primordial sea of chaos is that which from monsters and miracles alike come. Discord seems to be one of the things that crawls out of that sea - he's a malevolent force that aims to destroy order and has nothing more to him.
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If we go by Showcanon than he's not truly malevolent. He seems more amoral to me, who just does what he wants. He's not out to be cruel and evil, but just wants to entertain himself, and can even be mollified, to the point of considering the wants of others.
Thinking about it, you're probably right that he's a creature of chaos, but I don't think he's a malevolent one. Sure he's arrogant and believes himself above others, but in the end he's done nothing for the purpose of just being cruel. Only to entertain himself.
4556905 If "hurting people to entertain yourself" is not the definition of malevolent and cruel, what is?
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Cruelty and malevolence implies an intent to hurt and harm for no reason. As I mentioned, he seems more amoral, much like the Fae of Irish Mythology. The ones belonging to the Seelie Court were often described as mischievous, and sometimes unaware of the damage they were causing with some of their pranks. There was no evil or cruel intent behind their actions, save entertainment, but they didn't realise the damage they were causing, or didn't even think that it caused damage to someone at all.
It seems to me that Discord is similar. He doesn't think of the damage he causes, simply the entertainment he gets out of it. I don't recall him doing anything to hurt others for the sake of hurting them, just doing things for his own entertainment. Good example is when the Mane6 first walk up to his maze in the "Return of Harmony" episode, and he removes Rarity and Twilight's horns, Rainbow's wings, etc. It was an unpleasant (to say the least) experience for them, but to him it was hilarious. He doesn't think of how they feel, only how fun it is to him, and because he doesn't realise this, he can't really do it for the sake of making them "uncomfortable".
4556915 What you're getting at is Discord lacks knowledge of good and evil and therefore can't be held as a moral being. Which is fair enough pre-Fluttershy, but I'd contend just because he isn't evil doesn't mean he isn't malevolent and cruel, because those simply require intent. Discord, unlike a hurricane or an earthquake, actually has agency. It's a weird sort of agency because, lacking knowledge of good and evil, he's incapable of any determination of moral action, but he's still smart enough to actually hold dialogue and realize he's inflicting things on people solely because it amuses him.
In all that makes him a classic monster, one of the the things that must be slain explicitly because it is only a force for malevolence and cruelty.
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Cruelty/Malevolence can exist without Evil, I agree, but as I've mentioned I don't think it's right to call him cruel or malevolent. He hasn't shown a direct intent to cause harm or misery, which (to me, at least) signifies a lack of said qualities.
From the point of view of his victims, he most certainly appears as a cruel and malevolent entity, but that's simply because of their perspective. Objectively, however, I don't think you can call someone unaware of the consequences of their actions, as truly malicious. Cruelty defined, is willfully inflicting pain and misery unto others, but if he doesn't inflict said pain deliberately, then is it really cruelty? A bad analogy, perhaps, but I would say it's somehow similar to the child who steps on a bug. To the bug, someone cruel just stepped on it and took its life, but the child wasn't old enough to consider the consequences of its actions - It just wanted to see what would happen, and wasn't aware that pain, suffering, and death was the result of their actions.
Awesome post. I'm not very familiar with the Babylonian mythos, but from the characteristics you've cited it certainly seems to make for a nice comparison. We're also on the same page regarding Discord.
I may have too many headcannons but I think Luna and Celestia are opposites in a celestial sense where the sun is the guiding star and it is contrasted with the vast space it resides in. Luna is often colluded with the night sky (space), and not just the moon, I think.
It is easy to think of Luna as Tiamat thanks to NightMare Moon. The back story of NMM, and the personification of spreading the night (darkness) ((chaos)), which makes her easy to "fight" and grapple with.
Luna throughout episodes plays a more interesting role in rescuing ponies (foals) from the unknown/danger, so rather than be the chaos, she is more of a guardian of it?
Real danger/chaos, I think is still an element that permeates the land of Equestria, and is not personified in a "God of Chaos", tho he was an enemy once or twice... maybe the most dangerous chaos is one you tame?
If we do think that Luna punishes ponies because they rub reality the wrong way, it would be more a dramatic representation of her role than how she currently is portrayed.
I also like to think that Twilight is actually the unknown born out of order (the Yin Yang metaphor); since she is of the night aspect by theme, while is super worshipful (student) of Celestia. Plus, twi is chaos sometimes, rite??
“The” alternate interpretation? I’m pretty sure there’s more than one. You must really be tired indeed.
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