Well...was it worth it? · 1:29am May 21st, 2017
So we finally got an episode dealing with the Royal Sisters. And neither of them were kicked to the curb by a bad guy and showing each other what their jobs were like. It was...middle of the road for me.
While there were plenty of things that I did like: Daybreaker, seeming Celestia trying to handle dreams and the solitude, Luna trying to smile all the time, and so on. One thing, however, dragged it down and that was STARLIGHT. Isn't the map connected to the mane six? Why only send Starlight? Why continue to make Twilight useless? I mean, Twilight has known Celestia for years and has shown that she is a good friend of Luna's in a few episodes. If they wanted to do something with Starlight, I would have preferred it if Twilight had sent her to Canterlot because she felt she might be a bit bias in this situation.
This, so far, has been the season of Starlight. All of the characters that got me hooked to the show, have been treated like dirt except for Rainbow Dash. And...I'm getting tired of it. I might need to take a break from the show until next season and see if anything has improved
Sorry to hear that. I did like your story. The thousand year change was awesome. One of my very favorite
i dislike starlight as well she need to go down and remove form the show, or have sunset replace her
4540839 Oh get this, one of the Equestria Girls specials that will be coming out soon will have Sunset going back to Equestria and bonding with Starlight
4540856 yea i only watch part of first one that was it but i like sunset as char, she better, her voice is better, and she and twilight belong togeather, as lover and student/teacher or that what i think
4540861 I honestly don't know why they created Starlight when they have an awesome character like Sunset or Moondancer.
The Map is connected to the Tree of Harmony, which is in turn connected to the Elements, which have chosen at least two sets of bearers throughout history. It's clearly sentient to at least some degree. It chooses the ponies that it believes are best suited to solving a given problem. While this has been the Mane Six in most episodes, there was never really anything suggesting that it was incapable of calling upon other ponies if it determined they were best suited for the situation.
Saying "Why only send Starlight?" is like saying "Why only send Applejack and Fluttershy?" or "Why only send Twilight and Rainbow Dash?" You could ask that same question of literally any pair of ponies that it's sent somewhere, rather than just sending all of them, and still not get an answer that was any better and worse than the answer to "Why only send Starlight?" The answer is, yet again, because that's who the Map thinks is best suited to solving the problem.
There's your answer, in your very own words: Twilight would be biased. The Map sends the pony or ponies that it determines would be the best suited to solve the problem. Ergo, the map sent Starlight because Twilight might be too biased to solve the problem. Your suggestion here answers the very same question that you were asking before.
Why would Twilight inexplicably disregarding the Map because she thinks she would be too biased be more satisfying to you than simply assuming that the Map already took that into consideration when deciding to send Starlight? Especially given that doing so would be blatantly breaking character for Twilight, given that thus far she has never contradicted the Map's decisions on the best ponies for the job even when she personally wanted to visit the place her friends were being sent to.
4540870 Oh, I know this one!
Why did they create Sunset when they already had awesome characters like Luna and Discord? Why did they create Moondancer when they already had an awesome character like Twilight? Why did they create Tirek when they already had an awesome character like Chrysalis? The answer is pretty obvious:
Toys.
Also possibly something about fleshing out the world, developing new characters to work with, developing the existing characters more, expanding the two worlds (Equestria, EqG) without having to rely as much on finding excuses to cross the two, sure, but it's still probably mostly about the toys. Merchandising is a powerful force at Hasbro. Hell, half of their shows are basically just cobbled together stories trying to give some actual meaning and context to their toys.
4540870 agreed,
but your story is good,
4540871 I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I said, instead of making Twilight a useless one note character why not give her a purpose to this story. Why not have them both team up to try and solve this or, as I said before, why not just have Twilight ask Starlight to do this. This is my problem with the season so far, so many Starlight episodes. Ones with the mane six in them feel like that characters are being shoved forcefully to the side so connections with other characters can be made with Starlight or the mane six's story are either bad or boring.
I would have loved it if Muad could have tried to connect with the other ponies in Ponyville.
4540885 The problem with number 2 is this: they already have plenty of characters they can flesh out but are focused on her alone. She is the sixth ranger, but instead of joining the rest of the team she overshadows them. Its just like with the map. We could be fleshing out the rest of Equestria, but we just keep returning to the same old spots over and over again with only a couple of exceptions
Rainbow Dash used to be my favourite Mane 6 character, but these days she is pretty badly written (at least prior to season 7; I have only seen a few episodes of that).
In season 1 she told Pinkie not to prank Fluttershy because Fluttershy is too sensitive to appreciate a harmless prank. In season 6 she is equally harsh when pranking Fluttershy as everyone else.
When Tank was ready to hibernate, she lied, stole and committed acts of industrial sabotage just to avoid going a few months without.
I'm glad to know that the Map can choose someone else when there's a problem that M6 won't be able to solve. Like when looking at each of the M6 how would they do it compare to Starlight?
I'm loving Starlight more and more, but I do understand about what's happening with the M6 and I can tell you simply that when shows last this long the main cast we'll begin to be harder to write because what else could you when they achieve so much?
I believe the map choose her because she can do What the others couldn't and I do hope they'll use the CMC to send them out on Map missions which would be neat.
4541020 That would have been more interesting. The CMC have a closer relationship to Luna thanks to her helping them in their dreams. It would have allowed them to be teamed up with a member of the mane six to help balance it off.
As for the rest of the season, let me give you this example. With Gluttershy's episode, they had a chance to have Fluttershy and the vet working together and fleshing her character out as well as advancing Fluttershy's. They instead went lazy.
4540871
Seconded.
Starlight is bold. Prior to her redemption, you have to admit she was very good at "forcing a solution".
While the whole "enslave the village" was clearly evil, her willingness to take risks, follow gut-impulse, and get results is still impressive.
The Elements of Harmony aren't exclusive. If you are found worthy, you can wield them. By extension, the map is clearly more than just fancy crystal, and we have yet to see it steer anyone wrong who obeyed.
I'm not defending her past evil, but I can respect the fact that despite being dealt a crushing blow she:
A) didn't crumble
B) pursued a long-term solution
and
C) took pains to preserve her efforts
Granted, the result wasn't good in any sense, but the point is that she didn't shy away from making a decision.
If I were to "invent" a new element, I would say Starlight is the Element of Bravery.
No one else would DARE to "defy" the Princesses like that, and it gives me pause to consider if current Starlight had existed 1000 years ago...
Would there have been a Nightmare Moon, if someone were bold enough to "make" the Royal Sisters see eye-to-eye?
We'll never know for sure.
I liked this episode. I was laughing throughout most of it (immediately stopped when Daybreaker showed up and started tossing Nightmare Moon like a stray comet) and the one thing I want to see following is those little ones going on their field trip, even if it's just a background event.
Of course, Daybreaker would make for an interesting villain (it could serve as a way to bring back Chrysalis again).
4541240 I agree that episode was just... Boring! I'm shock that this episode became like that and I was interested to see what they could do for Fluttershy but sadly it didn't do so well at all...
Your idea for it would've been way better.
4541289 I might agree with you, but so much of Starlight comes off as half thought out. Her back story makes little sense to me to explain her present and I keep coming up with 'why didn't she do this' or 'why wasn't this an option with all of her abilites'. And she acts like the town knows of what she did, but I have never seen that. The only one last season who ever brought up her past is Spike in a way I believe is the writters trying to make Spike come off as insensitive while the others seem like they want to sweep the issue under the rug.
Overall, while I did like the episode to a point, I really feel more and more like Starlight and her new crew are going to replace the mane cast. I'm just waiting for Celestia to remove Twilight's wings and give them to Starlight. Why not, in both the show and the comics the have been depicting her as the omega pony
4541519
I admit, I wonder when we'll see the end of "remember when you brainwashed that village?"
And we have to remember that this show is meant for younger kids. The fact that it's not mindlessly sugary is good, but this ain't the CW or ABC (I'm American, so I know of "American" television networks)
I don't expect deep, philosophical twists; but I enjoy the funnies, the cutsies, and the adorablesies.
I enjoy the simple goodness of the show.
So as long as that stays, I'll keep watching, even if the Mane 6 end up taking a back seat.
Celestia is best pony!)
(
I am sorry to here that, I really liked The Thousand Year Change.
I did not entirely hate the episode but I would like to think they are setting things up for the future.
4541801 I have not left the fandom or stopped watching the show. Nor did I hate the episode. I...I'm just tired of Starlight stealing the show so much and the downgrade the other characters are getting
4542031 I think Starlight and some other are going to be a new Mane 6, I think they are going to use her to make G5.
4541801 But is that really such a good thing? I mean, the series already has a lot of good characters that can be explored. Slice of Life proved it can do this without Starlight. Personally I won't be opposed to allowing more characters shine, but Starlight only gets to shine by making the rest of the mane six look bad. That's not good story telling for a seventh season.
4540871
Think about it this way. The mane six are the ones who got the keys to the chest and opened it. They were the ones granted this open and position from the tree. They are in a way connected to it and it helps set them apart. Starlight is the one who violated the map for her own selfish goals. So having her go on a solo mission with the altered cutie mark is a bit head scratching
4543809
4540871
I have deleted both of your childish comments.
Vena, Brony has every right to depression himself as well as his displeasure at a character. There is no need to call it baseless just because you disagree. And there in no need to translate his comments. Just let them speak for themselves.
Bring, I k ow you can be passionate about certain things and you are hurting from a recent loss. But there is no reason for you to egg him on or try to prove who is right and who is wrong.
4540871
?
4544099
He does have every right to express himself, and his displeasure at the character. And I agree that he has a completely legitimate basis for his dislike for the character. However, whether or not something is baseless has nothing to do with whether or not I disagree. When someone presents an argument that is directly in conflict with known facts, or when it relies on a premise that has never been demonstrated, it is by definition baseless.
For instance, I dislike both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. I could list numerous reasons for disliking them, ranging from their economic policies, to their foreign policies, to the sound of their voices. And as long as I provide those reasons and those reasons coincided with the facts (or were subjective enough that it didn't require facts, such as disliking their voices), then I would have a basis for disliking them.
However, if I were to claim that Donald Trump is a time-traveling alien or that Hillary Clinton was a millennia-old reptile person controlling the world by wearing a human skin suit, and had no valid evidence to support that claim, it would be baseless. The fact that I would have a legitimate basis for disliking them and the right to express that dislike (and even the right to express my thoughts on their nature as inhuman entities) still would not mean that I have a legitimate basis for those claims regarding them not being human. It would be baseless, regardless of my opinion or the opinions of others, because I could not present valid evidence for the claim.
I will admit that I was being extremely childish in that last post, though, and I apologize for that.
4544114
...Um...I'm confused. What's the question?
4544136
From what I can remember, Brony was writing about the points that irritated him, don't make sense to him, and why he doesn't like the character. Really got ticked off at her removing free will from most of the mane six.
Allow me to explain it to you like this. Brony seems to have devolved an emotional connection to those six. The idea that they, after so many seasons, are being replaced is hurtful to some. The show has not explained how Starlight, who was never an Element bearer or filled with the energy from the tree, is connected to the tree. Right now it feels like they needed Starlight to do something and the writers did that to make her seem ever more important. But it just FEELS like she is being put in a position where she will fully replace the mane six
4544150
One of his points was that the Cutie Map altered them (or their cutie marks) to allow it to call on them via the blinking/glowing CMs, and that it didn't make sense that it could suddenly do it for others. This is a baseless claim because no evidence exists that it had to modify them in any way to do so. Another of his claims was that it selected Starlight because the others would slow her down. This is an objectively baseless claim because it attributes a specific intent to the Map's decision, but lacks any evidence to support that alleged intent and is even in direct conflict with the intent implied through Twilight and Starlights' dialogue (with both acknowledging that Twilight might be too biased).
In both cases, he is presenting an argument in which it is hypothetically possible that this was the case, but in which there is no evidence supporting them, and in one case even has evidence directly contradicting his assertion. Hence why I stated that they were baseless. I disagree with some of his reasons for disliking the character and how she's been used in the season, but I never claimed that those reasons were baseless. Only the ones regarding how the Cutie Map functions that were actually relying on specific assertions that have little or no evidence supporting them.
And I fully understand that. I even agree with it, to a point, as I have also been relatively irritated with the sheer number of episodes focusing on Starlight this season. But that still doesn't influence whether or not a claim has evidence supporting it, and most of the claims I responded to with accusations of being baseless weren't about his feelings on the character, but on whether or not something made logical sense within the context of the show (unless I'm just misunderstanding what he means when he says it "doesn't make sense").
That said, on the subject of assumptions, the notion that the Tree must be "connected" to someone in the way that it is to the Mane Six to call on them is one with little basis. I won't say it's baseless, given its relationship with the Tree of Harmony (and in turn the Elements of Harmony), but the basis is very shaky. It's shaky because we know very little of the Cutie Map's limits, or even its basic functions. And without knowing much about those functions, it's difficult to create a solid argument for how it should function, how it shouldn't function, or where any of what it does fits into those categories.
We can certainly make the claim that it uses the Mane Six because it's connected to them through the Elements, but we don't actually know if that's the case. It is a claim with some basis, in that we had previously only seen it call them, but "that's the only thing we've seen before" doesn't generally hold up very well. For all we know, them having the Elements could be entirely unrelated to whether or not the Map selects them for missions. It could simply be that, having the most experience in this particular field, they just tend to be the most qualified in the most circumstances. Or some other explanation somewhere in between the two.
And that's the problem with attempting to figure out what is and isn't consistent with the Cutie Map. Because of how little the series has actually told us about it, we lack the evidence to confidently make any claims regarding how it chooses them. The only evidence supporting the claim that it requires a unique connection is that we had previously only seen it summon the Mane Six, who have a unique connection to it, which is...not really great evidence. The only evidence supporting the claim that it doesn't require any kind of unique connection/the same kind of connection (remember, she did do a lot of tampering with it during her time travel escapades, to the point where the Map went on the fritz for a while) is that we've now seen it summon someone that doesn't have the same type of unique connection to it, which is...not really great evidence. Both claims pretty much just meet the absolute bare minimum level of evidence to qualify as possibilities.
4544198
Wouldn't that also mean that you shouldn't use the term baseless? All we have seen pointed to a connection to the elements as well as the tree. So all we have are fan theories which can vary on each person.
For me, they didn't need to use the map to do this episode. Just have Starlight seeing the sights in Canterlot, have Celestia invite her to be a guest at the castle, and have the rest of the episode play out. Having the map send her there feels more like the writers are trying to make her seem better than the rest
4544351
It's baseless in the face of new evidence. Evidence suggesting a certain conclusion doesn't give that conclusion immunity from being invalidated later on if more information is revealed, especially when that conclusion was based on limited information in the first place. An assumption can be rendered baseless when new information reveals that the only evidence supporting that assumption was being misinterpreted. For example:
Season One: Celestia is depicted as the sole individual capable of moving the sun, while Celestia and Luna are depicted as the sole individuals capable of moving the moon. Based on the knowledge that was available at the time, it would be valid to argue that this might indicate a unique trait that they possess, or possibly some manner of unique connection to the sun and moon. Season Two then revealed Discord, who was capable of performing both actions. Therefore, regardless of prior evidence allowing one to speculate that it was a skill limited to Celestia and Luna, the claim that it is something only Celestia and Luna can do becomes baseless because new information has shown that the assumption - which was based on very limited evidence - was mistaken.
One could then adjust their argument to include the condition that entities such as Discord are unique exceptions, and that Celestia and Luna are the only ponies capable of raising/lowering the sun and moon. Season Two then reveals in the Hearth's Warming episode that prior to Celestia and Luna taking over the duties, other unicorns moved the sun and moon. Therefore, regardless of prior evidence allowing one to argue that only odd exceptions aside from Celestia and Luna would be able to raise and lower the sun/moon, new data indicates that this assumption - still based on limited evidence, but adjusted to account for new information - was also mistaken.
Now, one could continue adjusting their conclusion to account for new information, but the fact remains that the previous assumption was still rendered baseless when taken purely on its own merits, because the implications of the evidence changed when new evidence appeared to shed more light on the situation.
It's the same principle here. How the Cutie Map functions, and how its functions relate to its connection with the Mane Six, is never actually established in canon. Fans, myself included, made that assumption based on the limited data available to us. However, as is often the case, the fact that our assumptions are based on so little information leaves them very susceptible to being invalidated when new information is revealed. The revelation that the Map can call on ponies other than the Mane Six is contradicting the assumptions that we made based on limited evidence, but it is not contradicting anything that was established in the series, because the series was irritatingly vague about how it works. Therefore the new information has rendered previous assumptions invalid, and while we can reexamine and adjust those assumptions to account for the new information, the original assumption still ends up being baseless due to the implications of the evidence changing as more is revealed.
Or, for the TL;DR version if you don't feel like reading through my rambling: An assumption can be rendered baseless when new data arises that contradicts it, and the less evidence you have, the greater the possibility that assumptions based on that evidence could be invalidated at a later point. If I say that someone is a lizard person because they have scaly skin, only to learn that they have it because of a rare medical condition, then while I can still readjust my view and come up with another reason why they might be a lizard person the argument that they are a lizard person because they seem to have scaly skin is now baseless.
Don't agree that it seems like they're trying to make her seem better than the rest, but honestly, I agree on it being completely unnecessary. There are plenty of ways that they could have introduced the situation, and doing it this way just served to further complicate any attempts to understand how the Map works by introducing new information that creates more questions than it answers.
4544476
Perhaps this phrase works best: it's magic we don't have to explain it.
I believe that is the shows logic at the moment.
I am tempted to write done the dozens of ways that this could have been made to work, with or without the map, but it would feel pointless. In the end however, I with to remind you of one thing. There are fans out there who are not happy with this change like myself. Personally I will always see Starlight as the over powered OC who Hasbro is using to replace the characters on the show rather than showing her as a part of the team, the sixth ranger if you will. You are of course allowed to disagree but please do not call my beliefs baseless when I haven't given my full explanation
4545080
The problem here is that you're conflating "saying my views on the character are baseless" with "saying a specific assertion I've made about the internal consistency of the series is baseless." Perhaps the message got lost due to the length of the post (My rambling certainly has drawbacks), so I'll try to keep this short and to-the-point: I have said nothing whatsoever about your opinions on the character or how she has been used in the series being baseless. That is a purely subjective issue determined by personal opinion and belief.
What I have called baseless is the assertion that her being called by the Map doesn't make sense because it has previously only called the Mane Six, who have a unique connection to it. That has nothing to do with belief. That has nothing to do with opinion. It is objectively, demonstrably false, because it is based on an assumption rather than an established fact, and that assumption has been proven wrong by the narrative. For it to not make sense - to be inconsistent with the internal logic of the narrative - it would need to conflict with something that was actually established in the narrative. Not something that people thought was true, not something people assumed to be true, but something that had been demonstrated as true within the narrative itself. Starlight being called by the Map may be inconsistent with fan assumptions regarding how the Map selects ponies, but it is not inconsistent with any established facts of the series in that regard. Therefore it only fails to make sense if you disregard the objective facts in favor of speculation that disregards fact.
Your beliefs have nothing to do with that. My beliefs have nothing to do with that. Belief, as a whole, has nothing to do with that. It is purely an issue of fact, and the fact is that the series has demonstrated that the assertion - which was based on fan speculation rather than anything established in the series - is false. And when an assumption has been shown to be false, that assumption is baseless.
4545297
Regardless of assumptions and theories, I have not been enjoying this season. There have only been two episodes that I have enjoyed fully now. If the next few weeks don't improve, I will stop watching this season as well as take it off my Netflix account. And if next season we have ever more Starlight, I will sadly have to leave the fandom
4545380
I'm sorry to hear that, but I completely understand. Heaven knows I've had plenty of series I've wanted to quit because I felt they were having too many problems. And even as someone who likes Starlight (she's not my favorite character by any stretch of the imagination - I doubt I could even fit her in the top ten - but she's grown on me more than I expected), I totally agree that the way they've been handling her this season has been very poorly done. I don't particularly mind the content of the episodes, but the way they've been going about it. In Season Six we had a few episodes that focused on her, and even seemed to be setting up a sort of B-Team situation like a number of franchises do where they'll establish a secondary set of "main" characters and shift back and forth between them and the A-Team, typically with season finales incorporating both. While I didn't much care for the writing of the S6 finale, that really seemed like the direction they were taking it, so I was willing to let the bad writing go since it's their first time doing something like that on the show.
Then this season started up, and I was actually pretty okay with it. The B-Team was mostly secondary in the first episode, and since they usually have two-part episodes in the premiere it didn't bother me too much that the second episode focused on Starlight and Trixie. Then episode three focused on Twilight, so I figured this was where they were going to start with the back-and-forth between the A-Team and B-Team. And then episode four happened, and once again focused on Starlight. But I was willing to give that a pass, because I enjoy Maud quite a bit, and I kind of figured they'd end up introducing two more characters to the B-Team to make them even. They were cramming too many of their episodes together for my tastes, but again, I could put that up to getting used to introducing a secondary set of characters to follow. Then we had a handful of episodes focusing on the rest of the cast, so it was like "Okay, they crammed a few of them together to reinforce the whole B-Team plot, but now they're getting back to the main cast. So this is where they'll probably start shifting between the two groups." So I saw the preview summary of this episode being about Starlight helping with a problem between the two sisters, and figured that it probably had something to do with the Mane Six being too biased for that problem (even if they've gotten to know Luna over the last few years, they've spent their entire lives living under Celestia's rule - it'd be hard to fight a bias like that), and so she'd probably end up bringing Discord or Thorax since both of them are pretty neutral towards the duo and could probably bring some unique perspectives to it.
Then the damned thing actually premiered. I can ignore the Cutie Map calling Starlight because hey, I thought it could only summon the Mane Six, but it's hardly the first time I've guessed wrong about something on this show. What does bother me is that so many of these previous Starlight-centered episodes seemed to be setting up a situation where she, Discord, Thorax, Trixie, and (more recently) Maud might team up to handle problems now and then. But no. For some inexplicable reason, they ignored a perfectly good opportunity for that, and just made it a Starlight solo mission. That just seemed like a bad move in terms of writing. It makes people who don't like Starlight feel like they're just shoving aside the Mane Six to make Starlight look good, and it makes people who like Starlight but expected her to start doing things with the secondary cast feel...well, pretty much the same way, but with the addendum that it also feels like they're pushing the secondary cast aside along with the Mane Six.
So...yeah. I totally get where you're coming from on that. Even from someone who likes the character, and has even liked a lot of the actual content of the episodes featuring her, the way that they've been going about it can be very off-putting. And for someone who doesn't like the character anyway, I can only imagine that it's even more irritating that they're handling it this way.
4545588
Well here's the thing, the season six opener hurt the ending for me. The opening had the potential to fix a problem I had with Starlight: her power. They could have done something where Starlight has power but not enough knowledge, Sunburst had the learning but not the power, and Twilight could have been present as the middle mare. The balance between the two. All they had to do was mention Starlight needing help from other ponies to help complete Starswirls spell. Nor did I really like how the mane six were shoved to the side. I also didn't care for No Second Prances for the way Mrs. Cake was handled or Twilight's reaction with Trixie. Last time they met, it was on somewhat good terms! It would have been better if Twilight had seen Trixie perk up to the idea of meeting Celestia or given reason for her to act that way.
As the season went on, I saw the biggest missed opertunity. Thorax! How much better would the season and the series be if he had become Twilight's student instead or along side of Starlight. A lot of the problems would have been fixed, given us another good male character who wanted to learn about friendship and then spread it around to a race that needed it, and could have produced more interesting episodes!
The finale was okish for me. Manly because they treated the mane six again like they had Celestia so many times before. I was also unhappy with the limited group. If this was their plan, I would have thought they would have added Gilda, Coco, and a few others they had helped over the years for a more diverse group. I was glad that Luna managed to get word out thanks to her dreamwalking.
The opening of season seven was alright, I have nothing to complain about. Its best was that it showed Celestia in a way we haven't seen in years and it was a welcome change. However, Muad's episode (something I had been looking forwards to) left a bad taste in my mouth with how she treated Rarity. And the over usage of Starlight episodes has been sapping away my fandom. The only salvation I have really had was with RD's episode and Pinkie's. But I have a fear that they will be the only good ones this season