May
9th
2017
Points of Canon: S1x01-02 - Friendship is Magic · 9:45am May 9th, 2017
I really should be writing, but it’s not working, the brain is stuck in analysis mode. Which is why I’m going to do something else: Another retrospective writeup. There is way too much we simply forgot because we haven’t been exposed to it for a while. I think we missed something.
Let’s start from the very beginning… With HD copies, subtitles, and a frame-by-frame player.
I will be asking a lot of questions this time. Some of these observations I have already used in Aporia, but writing it out will be useful anyway.
My stance on the opening narration has always been that it’s problematic. I don’t accept a universe in which Twilight reads this first, minutes before re-reading the prophecy, – because that is what she is doing! – and then does not connect Celestia to the prophecy explicitly and ask her what she knows. Even though the shot of actual Twilight shows her looking at the pictures we just saw, there is, of course, no text. But it has other interesting huh moments beyond that:
- Equestria is a “magical land.” Not a kingdom, not a continent, not a world. Anyone remember Kino no Tabi? It feels almost like this kind of land. This is a trope that has been with the ponies since the very first generation, but it’s almost Frank Baum, here, which vanishes completely a couple seasons in.
- Sun is raised by “unicorn powers.” We know that the word “alicorn” did not exist, but notably, it’s “powers,” but not “magic.” Why?
- Twilight comments that she has heard about the Elements before, but can’t remember where. A bit later we find that it was probably her “Predictions and Prophecies” book, which is some kind of topical encyclopedia of prophecies. Her letter to Celestia says “my continuing studies of pony magic have led me to discover…” which suggests she was studying this legend in search for information about magic rather than history. I wonder what kind of information did she expect to find? My guess is, she was searching for something specific, but what?
We see Minuette, Twinkleshine and Lemon Hearts accost Twilight with an invitation to Moondancer’s party as if she didn’t know that it’s supposed to happen.
- As we find out minutes later, Spike knew – enough to prepare a gift. Moreover, when Twilight rushes in and knocks him over with a door, Spike is heading out with the gift in hand, apparently, about to attend Moondancer’s party by himself. Unless he planned to locate Twilight outside, which I find dubious. Did Twilight know and just not care, or was it something else?
- Moondancer’s party has to be a birthday party, because everyone is bringing gift-wrapped boxes, and Spike’s box is explicitly a gift.
- Twilight passes Lyra and Lyra waves. Notably, Amethyst Star is with Lyra – but Twilight ignores her too, and she never comes up during Amending Fences. Amethyst Star is one pony that Twilight never interacts with. Were they acquainted at all or not?
- My thoughts on Twilight’s apartment, with its unusual two-level studio layout, were detailed in RTAC #1. But here’s something else: The minaret has to contain at least three separate apartments. I wonder who were Twilight’s neighbors.
- Twilight’s work table contains flasks and a mortar-and-pestle kit, earliest nods towards alchemy or chemistry which she almost never seems to actually use in magic.
- Spike says, “But we’re on a break!” which would imply that whatever academic year Twilight is on right now, it has summer breaks.
- At least half of Twilight’s books have the title on the opposite side, like Japanese books. Moreover, Twilights very often leafs through the pages in Japanese order, back to front. In fact, she primarily does this during Season 1.
- The phrase “longest day of the thousandth year” is very connotative. Years exist. Days change length within a year. This two-parter is actually the only time canon states this happens.
- Twilight’s “Take a note please. To the Princess,” suggests Spike is capable of sending notes to other ponies, but we never come back to that and we never see Spike send letters to anyone else, except Luna, in Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep, even when it would be expedient. In fact, every time when a letter would resolve the plot, Spike is shuffled out of it.
- “The day after tomorrow is the thousandth year of the Summer Sun Celebration!” implies that Summer Sun Celebration has not been held prior to Nightmare Moon. Why? Was it the first new holiday of the New Equestria? Maybe. Possibly, even the day of its founding, though that is doubtful, because…
- …Because whatever you say, it can’t be year 1000 in pony calendar, or even any particularly special round date: Ponies like round numbers at least as much as humans do, and would believe it to be deeply meaningful. A prophecy from an encyclopedia would be widely discussed public knowledge. Around here, when nothing happened on Year 1000 of Our Lord, they started the Crusades.
- Princess Celestia writes really fast. Also, notably, it sounds like she wrote two letters: The first one that just brushes Twilight off and the second one that finally sends her off to Ponyville. The first one starts with “My dearest most faithful…” while the second one starts with “My dear Twilight.” There was probably at least one more letter between the two, because some context seems to be missing.
1. If he weren’t, there would still be room for supposing that Minuette / Twinkleshine / Lemon Hearts just went shopping for tomorrow’s birthday party together.
The celebration is “the day after tomorrow” and Twilight only appears in Ponyville on the day immediately preceding it – i.e. “tomorrow.” She still could attend Moondancer’s party, because that was obviously “today” – otherwise Spike wouldn’t be heading out of the apartment with the wrapped gift.1 We don’t have any grounds to decide why she chose not to other than interpretational, but we know she chose not to. My guess is, she got the second of the Celestia’s letters cited the same day, and decided to write the “Summer Sun Celebration Official Overseer’s Checklist,” because who else would do it for her?
- Celestia’s letter implies that the Summer Sun Celebration is held in different locations every year, otherwise there would be no “this year’s location” in it.
- The letter ending with “make some friends!” when Celestia effectively sends Twilight away from at least four friends she already has – even if she doesn’t seem to accept them as such – is particularly weird and certainly quashes the idea of an all-knowing Celestia. Unfortunately it took us five seasons to hear about that.
2. And does Rainbow have a chariot driver’s license? Inquiring minds want to know.
Pegasi fly chariots by running in the air while flapping wings, and the wheel spins while they do this. Something to keep in mind. We still don’t know definitively if using a chariot in this way is a property of the chariot, a skill of the pegasi driving it, or something else entirely.2
- Applejack does a hoofshake. Notably, I don’t remember her doing something like this since. I don’t think we’ve seen this gazebo ever since either.
- Applejack calls everyone over with “Soup’s on, everypony,” but of course there’s no sign of soup. Everything they present to Twilight is apple-based desserts, but something else appears on the table afterwards, which includes carrots.
- The total of Apples on screen is at least 22, not counting the regulars. Which is, incidentally, just about as many as seen during the Apple Family Reunion…
- Spike comments that Rainbow Dash is supposed to be clearing the clouds. Just how exactly does he know that, and what kind of level of the mission detail he took over while Twilight was digging around for more information on the Nightmare Moon?…
- Where exactly did that muddy puddle that Rainbow knocks Twilight into come from?
- This is actually the first time we see a pegasus create something like a tornado, which we don’t see often in later seasons.
- One notable location on the streets of Ponyville is a well, and this is where it first turns up. It’s particularly notable because later episodes say they do have proper plumbing. In our world and in my experience, places that have both typically have lever-operated pumps, rather than bucket-on-a-rope wells.
- Rainbow mentions that the Wonderbolts are “going to perform at the celebration tomorrow,” and she’s practicing to show off before them. They never do, do they?
- Twilight, someone we tend to see as an antisocial shut-in, particularly in this period, knows who the Wonderbolts are instantly, and manipulates Rainbow based on this.
- Rainbow’s ten seconds are about as much exactly ten seconds as they could get.
- The banners in the town hall include both sun and moon.
- Rarity says “coiffure,” which is the first French word to turn up in primary canon.
- Most the outfits Rarity tries on Twilight include decorative saddle elements. In later seasons, these mostly vanish, suggesting saddles came out of fashion next year. It’s especially interesting that the last outfit she tries on Twilight before Twilight runs away is almost nothing but a saddle, and she tightens it on Twilight exactly like one would tighten a corset. If I needed to cite anything for my theory that saddles serve a similar function, and it wasn’t convincing just like that, here it is.
- Rarity has “always dreamed” to live in Canterlot. Not in Manehattan, for some reason.
- Twilight runs away saying “quick, before she decides to dye my coat a new color,” establishing that dying the coat is something that is both practical and at least occasionally done.
- Notably, nobody but Fluttershy paid any attention to the dragon. But Fluttershy didn’t know if dragons talk or not. Huh? Twilight’s reaction to this suggests that curiosity of random strangers about dragons is not new to her, however.
- “I started out as a cute little purple and green egg…” But later episodes are clear that there was no green in it. Was Spike wrong or was Twilight’s flashback off?
- When the lights turn on in the library, Twinkleshine and Lemon Hearts and Lyra are standing right next to Twilight. Minuette is also in the shot. Twice. :) Yeah, I know…
- Twilight pours hot sauce from the bottle with a rather unambiguous label herself with no prompting or outside interference. She must really be distracted.
- I’m not sure what the meaning of a lampshade is in this context. That said, I don’t typically do parties.
- The mysterious four objects that collide with the moon are too bright to be regular stars, of course, and to be honest, look much more like some variation on moon dogs to me – that is, purely optical phenomena, possibly magic-induced – they’re so symmetrical.
- Notably, the collision occurs at a few minutes past an even hour boundary, but we can’t tell if it’s 05:00, or 06:00 – which is a moment that doesn’t seem to correspond to much of anything, because the sunrise is not due for at least fifteen minutes yet.
- Mayor Mare reiterates that this is supposed to be the start of “the longest day of the year.”
- At least a few minutes, possibly as many as ten, pass between the optical phenomenon and the pattern of Mare in the Moon vanishing from the moon.
- Rarity says “she’s gone!” A million bit question: was Celestia there in the first place? Why didn’t Twilight come to see her? To raise the sun in the view of an audience she would have to arrive at least a few minutes prior.
- The CMC cower together, even though we are pretty sure they don’t know each other’s names at this point. I thought I’d point this out.
- “Does my crown no longer count now that I have been imprisoned for a thousand years? Did you not recall the legend? Did you not see the signs?” phrase by Nightmare Moon implies she knows that the legend of her return has to exist and it involves signs she just implemented. It is never elaborated how exactly does she know that. There are two primary possibilities – either she had some way of getting news from the surface, like spying on dreams, or the prophecy existed before Luna fell to the Nightmare. Both are promising.
- The uniform gasp as Twilight announces Nightmare Moon suggests everyone in the audience have at least heard the legend before, even if they didn’t immediately connect the visuals with it.
And the second part:
3. Remember her unexpected skill with explosives?
Mayor Mare issues an order to the guards. Somehow, the guards treat her as the primary authority, rather than their own commander.3
- Nightmare Moon invokes lightning without the use of a horn. It actually never lights up through this entire two-parter, she never casts magic with her horn, just the eyes.
- I can understand why Nightmare chooses to leave: She needs to secure the Elements. But why Rainbow, the fastest pegasus in Equestria, doesn’t chase her all the way?…
- The Mane 5 accost Twilight in the library together. While they probably weren’t close friends before this day, as we find from the subsequent episodes, they would need to be on first name basis for this scene to happen.
- According to Twilight, the Elements of Harmony are “mysterious objects,” and she doesn’t know what they are. So where did the “Elements of Harmony: a Reference Guide” come from at all, in a small town library? And what exactly was it doing under “E?”
- Applejack says, about the Everfree, “And it ain’t natural. Folks say it don’t work the same as Equestria.” But later, Shadowbolts say, “We’re the greatest aerial team in the Everfree Forest, and soon we will be the greatest in all Equestria, but first, we need a captain.” So is Everfree included in “Equestria” or not? Applejack says not, Shadowbolts say it is…
- Applejack is a strong earth pony. She should be capable of pulling Twilight out of this chasm, but she is limited to holding her up. That implies a limit on the magical grip strength of hooves, because they’re clearly holding each other by these imaginary “fingers.”
- Not only is Rarity combative, she’s actually the first to strike the manticore, and only damage to her hair demoralizes her.
- Why did anyone doubt that pony songs are fully diegetic after Pinkie’s number anyway?…
- Rarity mentions Magnet’s manicure which we can’t see, giving us the first clear taste of the limits of cartoon resolution.
- So why are the scales so sharp?…
4. The one where while passing over Equestria, the sun is shielded by the moon, producing a finely tuned shadow over where she pleases, but leaving everywhere else lit by the sun, so that the moon cycles in a U path, alternating directions, while the sun completes a full O orbital path.
When the Mane 6 arrive to the ravine and see the RPS Castle, the moon is on the horizon, while it was at least 30° up in the sky when Twilight saw the collision phenomenon, and probably higher. Why did it go down? Did Nightmare Moon plan to set up the eternal eclipse cycle as I theorized?4
- The layout of the castle does not match subsequent portrayals at all, especially the room with the Elements orrery. The window shapes don’t match either. If you wanted to substantiate the idea that with the loss of divine alicorns we also had the world swapped under the camera, that’s the evidence you need.
- Twilight teleports for the first time in the series. The distance traveled does not exceed 15 meters, and it briefly winds her, which is an observation important for episode chronology.
- “And Rainbow Dash, who could not abandon her friends for her own heart’s desire represents the spirit of… loyalty!” How exactly did Twilight know that? This entire scene occurred on the other side of the ravine, and was largely invisible due to the fog. There isn’t an obvious break in time for Rainbow to relate her experience to Twilight.
- Applejack says “Gee, Twilight!” which is the first in the long string of G, OMG, “Oh My Gosh”, etc. that ponies utter for no clear reason.
- “But… you told me it was all an old pony tale.” Notably, Celestia did not say anything of the sort on screen, and there wasn’t anything we heard strong enough for Twilight to conclude that, either. There had to be a conversation between these two letters.
- Smoking shards of Nightmare Moon’s armor have been distributed among a myriad fanfics afterwards.
- Everyone is surprised at Celestia’s statement that she has a sister at all. They don’t spend a lot of time being surprised, but I think the expression is pretty clear.
- The scene with Spike jump-hugging Twilight next to the chariot she came to Ponyville in suggests she arrived in it. Celestia and Luna arrive to the party in another chariot. So what transport exactly did the Mane 5 use? Because Twilight’s chariot is too small for them all.
Some of these observations are probably unimportant, but the rest should get you thinking. :)
You can assume that the RPS castle is sprawling, built over multiple generations, and has more than one reception chamber built in different styles, and the visuals work out. I'm willing to bet that Canterlot Castle's throne room shifts appearance regularly, too.
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Ponies actually live in the Canterlot Castle, though, and can renovate…
Twilight was probably looking for hard data on the Elements in Predictions and Prophecies. It does seem rather encyclopedic.
Not true. He sends one to Luna in "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?"
See here. Mind you, the trope has evolved to the point where it probably isn't implying that Spike is drunk. (Indeed, there's the question of whether alcohol has any effect on the draconic metabolism, but that's a different matter.)
This is Rainbow Dash we're talking about. She'll make time to brag about her exploits.
In any case, it should be quite interesting to see your further review of the first episodes. Early Installment Weirdness definitely crops up at times, like the universal access to telekinesis at the end of "The Ticket Master."
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Unnamed book of, presumably, myth, which is presented to us covered by Celestia’s narration => “Predictions and Prophecies,” to investigate the Elements mentioned by the first book, because she remembered that “Predictions and Prophecies” also does.
That much is obvious. The question is what was she looking for in the first book, considering that she writes to Celestia referring to pony magic, not history. We know it was related enough to get her to look the Elements up, but no specifics beyond that.
Easiest way to get someone to remember stuff for you: Say “never.”
Thanks.
That one’s trivial, all the tickets glow with the same magic color…
“Soup’s on!” is an American country-ism similar to “Come an’ get it!” It just means the meal is ready; no actual soup implied.
The lampshade-on-the-head gag is very old and is a visual clue that the wearer is so sloppy drunk that he thinks wearing a lampshade is funny. I have never seen this happen in real life.
People have always found the series opener troublesome, not only because of a number of the reasons you point out, but also because they find the writing isn't on par with later episodes.
Well, I believe I have an explanation: Their genre is different from the whole rest of the show.
Specifically, it's not a modern high fantasy, which must make sense in its own context. It's a fairy tale, which need not make logical sense, but must make symbolic and emotional sense. The biggest giveaways are the opening narration, which reads just like a fairy tale; and Twilight's speech to Nightmare Moon regarding the Elements, which involves everything happening perfectly in a very short time. Fans regard the latter as proof of a Chessmaster Celestia, which is fine, but in the context of a fairy tale, such explanations are not necessary.
How do we reconcile this with the rest of the show? With crackpot fan-theories, of course!
Here are a couple of my favorites.
I propose a third option: Spike's first impression of the egg was from the inside, which was purple and green, or at least looked so in the light of the tiny flames he was using to look. (We could also say that early childhood memories are notoriously unreliable, but where's the fun in that?)
Remember how, later in the season, it's revealed that the Mane Six's destinies had been connected for years by the Sonic Rainboom? In the same way, Fate contrived that the future CMC would take cover under the same table.
These blogs really are great thought exercises. Keep 'em coming!
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Oh, definitely!
But that’s Doylist, and we’re working on Watsonian, and they gave us enough pieces by now to hammer them all together into submission. :)
That does sort of make sense, if he could see anything and was conscious inside. Which I find somewhat doubtful, because the whole test is by itself somewhat problematic… But we’ll get to that yet. I believe the best explanations evolved by fandom involve the test being a Kobayashi Maru scenario in one way or another.
Kind of a comedic destiny.
Well, I just posted the next one. :) Not going to have the energy to do any more today, though.
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Additionally, that still doesn't have to imply that he can fire-breathe letters to anypony he likes. Possibly if Twilight had specified another recipient, Spike would have proceeded to send the letter conventionally, like any other secretary. Luna, as part of her reintegration into the diarchy, later gets hooked into whatever powers Spike's link to Celestia.
If the books in question were available to the general public, not just to the Princess and her Faithful Student.
I think that one-day gap, where Twilight could have gone to Moondancer's party but chose not to, is rather important for "Amending Fences". If that gap wasn't there (or if a viewer forgets about that gap, as a lot of them did) then Moonie would look a lot pettier than the writers intended: "I can't believe Twilight saved Equestria from eternal night instead attending my party! That jerk!"
I think those bunch were more study buddies or coworkers than friends—at least Twilight certainly saw them that way at the time. Celestia figured that if Twi's Canterlot classmates hadn't been able to draw her out of her shell after those years together, then they were probably a dead end. So Celly decided to hook Twi up with those five nice mares in Ponyville.
And at the end of part 2, Twilight can't stand the thought of going back to Canterlot. She just met her fellow Elements of Harmony yesterday, and she already cares more about them—is more distressed about the possibility of leaving them—than she does about the Canterlot Five.
I don't think "Amending Fences" introduces continuity errors (as at least one other person does) but I do think Twilight "caring about Friendship is literally my royal duty now" Sparkle was stretching the word "friend" to the breaking point when she used it for Moondancer et al.
I'm siding with Twi's flashback. I can't remember any details from the day of my birth, so I wouldn't expect Spike to, either.
Well, in the early episodes, ponies also pulled trains, and then that became no longer true. What stance do we take when the show blatantly contradicts itself? Do we roll with the retcon?
Not necessarily. If she used the phrasing "take a note", the word "note" does not imply something that is always sent, the same way that "letter" does. It's equally reasonable to say that Spike takes notes for her, and sends some of them.
(I headcanon multi-recipient dragon-mail so hard. But let's be rigorous about this.)
Pretty sure that she's all about being recognized by royalty specifically. See: Her swept-away-by-a-prince dreams in the Gala-adjacent episodes; her over-the-top reaction to Celestia giving her a room in the episode she visits Canterlot alone; and arguably her song - "making my mark, making my mark in high society." Manehattan is a big cultural center, but Canterlot is where the princesses are.
(Oh yeah, and her second shop is in Canterlot, not Manehattan.)
While "Gosh" is suspect, "gee" is arguably a horse pun.
4526322 I completely agree with you. Twilight was stretching language to the breaking point to even call Moondancer et al her friends. Remember how she didn't spare them a second thought for several seasons.
4526464 Well, in the case of trains, my preferred headcanon is to take them both at face value: locomotives are just now starting to be used.
(In the case of carriages, things're more difficult. Maybe there're several different models of magic carriage?)
Only asking the really deep questions in this one, I see.
Guys, what are the implications of this puddle?!
You're assuming that this is a well that's still operational, and moreover, is still used daily by the townfolk for supplying their water. It's more likely just a historical landmark.
I don't think they had any opportunity to perform on-screen. The first attempt at the Celebration was derailed almost immediately by Nightmare Moon. The second attempt, we only saw a tiny bit of at the end, and that was when Luna had the wreath put around her neck and Celestia was talking to Twilight. I think that the Wonderbolts performance would've happened some time after where the episode ended.
Absolutely yes. They draw back the curtain as if expecting her to be behind it, and everyone is surprised when she isn't. Why would Mayor Mare be under the impression that Celestia was in position and ready for the reveal if she'd had no confirmation that Celestia was even in town yet? She would've at least had to have been given the go-ahead by one of the Royal Guard.
Here are some better questions:
-It's definitely no coincidence that the Summer Sun Celebration was held where Nightmare Moon landed after escaping her prison. But was Nightmare Moon always going to land at that location, or was she pursuing Celestia specifically? And more importantly, if Celestia was present in Ponyville, but fled before Nightmare Moon arrived, then why did Nightmare Moon not pursue her? There doesn't seem like enough time for an offscreen battle or confrontation to have taken place.
-The Summer Sun Celebration is a pretty big ceremonial event, which requires the Royal Guard to be present in at least some capacity. Where is Shining Armor? Even if the Captain of the Royal Guard's first duty is not to protect the princess, I would've expected him to at least be present in a ceremonial capacity. In fact, it's notable that Cadance doesn't show up at this event either. My guess is that they're managing the ceremonies in Canterlot.
I am fairly certain that Celestia planted it there, specifically because we know that she arranged for Twilight to stay in the library. Whether she knew that she'd stay permanently in Ponyville or not, the library was still Twilight's designated accomodation for that one night.
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I'm leery of accepting apparent retcons, because sometimes the most recent episode may just contradict an earlier episode out of bad writing rather than a conscious attempt to make a sensible change, and the implications of the retcon are not thought through. Like in the case of Celestia's flashback in Celestial Advice, if we take it at face value, it's a retcon that suggests that the main six all knew each other and were friends before Twilight came to Ponyville, like in the EG universe. But this creates so many issues with season one episodes, it can't possibly be anything but a mistake, and accepting the retcon would just make everything make less sense.
Personally, I think the right approach is to make Watsonain explanations for these discrepencies wherever possible, and to only accept the retcons when no alternative is available. In the case of the example I gave, Oliver suggested that Celestia was just being an unreliable narrator, and I'm perfectly happy to accept that. In the case of the train thing, I dunno, I guess we just assume that the Friendship Express was out of coal at the time.
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If our goal is to take both depictions at face value, then we're in a similar position with sky-carriages — but with at least two, possibly three, different depictions. I'm thinking of Luna's chariot in Luna Eclipsed, which has turning wheels but is pulled by clearly flying, not galloping, ponies:
(I don't know offhand whether newer chariots have changed the wheel thing.)
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Off the top of my head, the explanation I'm coming up with is...
Sky chariots, and maybe royal ones particularly, have magically turning wheels to give the illusion of driving on an invisible road for aesthetic purposes. Celestia's Royal Guard immitate the act of walking on air to help sell this, but Luna only cares for speed and has her guards dispense with that.
Discord's advocate time! Part one!
No, though I have seen it.
If Twi's itinerary is like her checklists, then she
writesdictates it, but he keeps it (and ensures she keeps to it).Or she's shorthanding "Dear Princess Celestia," and he's probably tasked with errands such as mundane post, too, anyway.
Nasty implications, especially when nobody's heard of Nightmare Moon. Probably whence all the fans infer Celestia-censorship of history.
Dictate it to Spike, you mean, which is obviously more important than a mere party…
And both are pretty terrible for what manipulators they have.
This is actually quite sensible; it suggests that Fluttershy's hearing differs meaningfully. To us, Angel doesn't talk. To us, Spike does talk. To Fluttershy, she can hear both, and has to seek external confirmation on new-species Spike before knowing which category he falls in.
Pinkie PIe is talking her ear off, and she hasn't built up an immunity yet.
I haven't experienced it, but… article explaining the whys of "[lampshade-wearing] has come to symbolize the obnoxious drunk trying to be funny—and failing."
Okay, this is where I have an interesting fact to interject, which I learned from a fantasy novel where it was mystically-important: Sun to Moon is ~500 lightseconds¹, a bit over eight minutes. Hypothesis: sun magic (moving at cee) stops being beamed from Sun to moon at time of conjunction, but it takes that long before the beam-cessation reaches the Moon.
third very-likely possibility: she is attuned to Fate or can read it in the same manner that Celestia does, and learned it the same way anytime during the thousand years…"how do I/will I get out of here" is a highly-expected divination target.
But yeah, if Starswirl is Nostradamus as well as Merlin, I would not be surprised.
Well, duh, Nightmare Night's a thing.
Part 2
I'd suspect NMM vanished in one way or another. Probably not turning into shadowy clouds--Rainbow would do the exact same buck to them, and possibly inflict more damage than otherwise.
Celestial meddling and/or it's a local legend, being closest town to Everfree and the old Castle. Both neatly explain Twi not knowing; as she's not from around there. As for "e"…well, it just means that the bibliotechnician [may just be volunteers!] was very straightforward in organizing by title. It's not like "the" or "a" which obviously get kicked to end shelving-order-wise, even if one might file it under "Harmony, Elements of" in another system. Anyway:
❧books are by title in this library pre-Twilight.
Applejack is Othering the Everfree. Alternately: does this mean that the Everfree *is not* a "magical land"? Another way, post banishment, the Everfree became a Rub' al Khali-like† exclusion from the Equestria polity…while NMM intends to include it in her to-be Equestrian rulership.
seems more like a thing filed under "pilot vs main-run", but then, we are eschewing all those pesky Doylist considerations…
The dismissive "but you simply must stop reading those dusty old books!", esp. in contrast to the other clause in that sentence "I value your diligence and that I trust you completely," likely makes Twi think that "it's an old pony tale" is what Celestia meant, even if "from a certain point of view" [denotationally] Celestia wrote no such thing. (ed: also, she doesn't specifically deny that she said it was an old pony tale)
uh…why is this here? Did you mean that those shards were plainly visible in the episode, or what?
Clarke's First Law corollary?
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oh gods I know there's an amazing fanon idea that somehow is "Princess Celestia and Luna both have dragon flame-codes" with an implication that it's encoded like DNA and a "don't ask how the Princess got a draconic bloodline code", but I cannot immediately recall which fic…but my first guess was right: McPoodle's The Perfect Little Village of Ponyville. I highly recommend its series though I cannot say why aside from this point without spoiling things.
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Weather control is imprecise…or RD set it up as a prank.
Celestia surrendering [backstage] is the odds-on favorite for explaining this. Mystical imprisonment optional, but recommended.
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If the wheels are turning at the illusory-road-correct speed, then they
do notare less likely to jar and cause the chariot to tip forward on landing from friction, because they're already turning at the correct rate, rather than just hanging there.Actually, that "draconic bloodline code" thing (that both princesses have some unique factor allowing them into the Dragon Post Service⁑ due to a prior regal action) and that Spike later sends to Luna lead us to an interesting option to explain the differing salutations and Celestia disclaiming having said any such thing: Nightmare Moon is not beyond dragon-flame-mail spell range, and sent the letter trying to dissuade
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I actually don’t think they weren’t. This is not some ancient literature, it’s a new printing, and most importantly, it’s an encyclopedia. Also, that Faithful Student status does not appear to entitle Twilight to that much more than Celestia’s personal time.
There is, of course, the camp of Chessmaster Celestia, where all of this stuff was planted. But Amending Fences / A Celestial Advice make that position considerably less strong.
Indeed, but for Moondancer in particular it clearly was more important than she let on.
We also have that weird photo of Spike in a shell next to Twilight who looks much older than the time she hatched him…
4526464
Screw them. :) The train needed to keep the schedule but couldn’t get fueled in time for whatever reason, – coal shortage, union on strike because the contract stipulates cupcakes for lunch and they got bagels, we can imagine lots of very plausible reasons – so they hired ponies to pull it to do so and crossed hooves hoping the train doesn’t get derailed.
Well, I suppose.
And yet Manehattan is the fashion center, later…
Another pun horses wouldn’t have…
4526206
Hard mode, eh? All right, I'll play ball.
4526464
That'll be useful when the Dragon Lands inevitably start modernizing. But think of the nuisance when they discover junk mail!
4526818
I like most of your ideas, but I think I can shed some light on this:
Not necessarily: The Celebration might have been started independently by a few ponies, and spread throughout Equestria over time. And Celestia isn't one to start banning holidays... as far as we know.
I believe he means they were used as plot devices. Past Sins was the big one that did this, as far as I know.
4526591 Cadance was sent away to keep her safe from Nightmare Moon, and perhaps also so as to be another alicorn theoretically capable of moving the Sun just in case everything went wrong. (At least, if Celestia and Nightmare Moon both got killed or incapacitated, somepony's going to need to keep the day and night cycle going.) Shining Armor, of course, is with her.
(Got this headcanon from Jordan179, but it makes absolute perfect sense on both a political and personal level.)
Maybe Nightmare Moon did pursue Celestia and defeat her all in that one minute (or so) before we see her back in Ponyville? Or (more likely IMO) she stayed to gloat and perhaps give Celestia time to escape?
4526591
Deeper than it sounds. How many other puddles on central streets of Ponyville do you remember, and when did it last rain, for that matter, enough to produce a big puddle like that which still hasn’t dried?
A non-operational well would probably get boarded up like the one in The Mysterious Mare-Do-Well, at least. It’s a hazard.
So why didn’t Twilight go talk to her?
The only way this could have happened is Celestia’s explicit order. Notice also that the guards only show up on screen in the second half, after Mayor Mare calls out, and in the first one they’re totally off screen in that scene.
Here’s a guess.
Celestia fled immediately towards the RPS castle as soon as she recognized Nightmare is approaching, which is what prevented Nightmare from chewing up the audience: Every moment she spends monologuing means Celestia has more time to recover the Elements and try again. While Nightmare likes the attention, she soon realizes that delaying the chase is deadly.
Celestia continues fleeing, passing the castle and not stopping there. By the time Nightmare found the location and found the Elements untouched, her only reasonable strategy is to wait until Celestia turns up to battle her, unless she can figure out an effective way to deny the Elements to Celestia forever, so she waits, sending out “feelers” in all directions, semi-autonomous spell-like entities.
And Celestia waits too.
The Mane 6 are approaching, and the Nightmare can’t consider them a serious threat, when there’s a potential battle with Celestia looming, so her feelers attempt to use the environment to get them out of her mane. By the time Twilight’s trying to ignite the Elements, Nightmare’s only reaction is that “You’re kidding, right?” – only Celestia wasn’t kidding, and this totally works. And then Celestia can come back.
4526658
Notice also the trajectory, which is radically different: Instead of galloping horizontally, her pegasi drivers are diving.
Other chariots were never seen doing that, they always land horizontally by slowly changing the altitude. The simple conclusion is that this is simply what the pegasus is supposed to do when driving the chariot like that – for braking, otherwise the chariot will outrun them and smash into the ground.
4526818
Lever pumps have got to be much easier.
That is an interesting theory, though I’m not sure everything agrees with it later on.
Both sun and moon of Equestria’s Earth are far closer than that, it’s pretty definite. However, I also have a suspicion that the speed of magic in air is closer to the speed of sound…
There might be something like that involved.
Generally contradicts the eventual un-deifying of alicorns, though.
Not just in this one, there’s also Twilight’s Micro-Series #1. But if it’s supposed to be this way, why wasn’t it the first place Twilight looked?
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant.
Kinda. :)
The latter is actually a very good one.
4526919
Doylist is way too easy with ponies: Toys. Hasbro. Disorganized chaos and belief in the audience that has the brains of goldfish.
Also depressing. :)
That’s actually a very good option, though it leaves the question of how did Twilight know it’s the “thousandth year” of the Summer Sun Celebration.
On the other hand, this is exactly the sort of thing Twilight would know while nobody else did, making her discovery an actual discovery. For example, because she was reading this book of myths in the beginning to research the magical significance of yearly rituals like that…
4526919
Well, yes, but I'm wondering why the note about fanworks in Points of Canon, and so, since it's been a while, am asking after the particulars. I didn't recall them being there, so…but there they are, at a little after 19 minutes? So, I guess, question answered.
Looking over the scene, I see an interesting subtidbit: when they're assembling the shattered elements, Nightmare Moon cringes, shades herself with a wing, and her starry mane waves as though the light is exerting pressure on it.
Also, that double-helix into a tornado, plus Twi-light-eyes is not how the Elements' beam works later…
and again unusually,
4526916
The Starswirl wing's guarded but open to her…but for some reason she doesn't know that?
4526936
She was perhaps expecting "Harmony, Elements of" under H, because Harmony is of mystical importance…a thing that Twilight may only have known for the episodes' duration, granted.
Also, she's had very little time to familiarize herself with this library, unlike Pinkie Pie…which is one of the many data supporting Pinkie Pie as having insight borne of intellect and thorough legwork and being well-read, etc. etc. rather than "just because funny" even if she tries to pass it off as "because Pinkie".
Well…yeah? They're still goddesses now.
4526939
Now you're talking my language! This is what H.P. Lovecraft called "the piecing together of dissociated knowledge." All the information looks unrelated until the last puzzle piece clicks into place, and you realize the end of the world is neigh. (
!)
4526949
The eventual un-deifying occurred for us, but could not have possibly occurred for them. Either they still are deities or they have never been.
4526963
Yup. So the chain is like this:
Sometime in the year of the first battle with the Nightmare Moon, a few ponies decide to celebrate the summer solstice, watch the sunrise, have a few drinks in honor of the Sun Princess who has been raising it for like 200-300 years by now and finally got the calendar straight, and it becomes a Thing. In fact, it becomes so much of a thing that they decide to definitely do that again the next year.
Some fifty years later, it’s a tradition that spreads throughout Central Equestria. An enterprising researcher documents how it started, noting the exact year, but because it doesn’t sound particularly interesting, their work remains largely forgotten.
The holiday becomes a national holiday and ponies clamor for the Sun Princess to go drink with them. Being the magnanimous ruler she is, she sets up a circuit wherein she will appear and publicly raise the sun in a town selected.
I am not sure when the prophecy was written, but if my theory about the seal on the Nightmare being tied to sunrise and sunset, rather than time – i.e. the number of times when Celestia has to touch it to move the celestial object – is correct, that is probably very early. It might even be the last important prophecy Star Swirl has left around before vanishing, since canon agrees that’s when he disappeared. It’s also one of those very few prophecies which work in terms of years, rather than moons.
Twilight is researching the celestial motion spells. Because she’s Celestia’s Most Faithful Student, and if anything happens to the Princess, she’s a potential candidate for the backup: She is to lead a group of unicorns in a spell that will move the Sun and Moon. The history of how it was done in the past arouses her curiosity, and so she digs into a book of myths, which mentions Nightmare Moon, sealed with the use of the Elements of Harmony, without clearly detailing her origins or relation to Celestia. Just what the hay are those Elements, anyway? Could they, perhaps, be used to optimize the process of celestial motion? Because right now, it’s quite hazardous to the participants if they’re not alicorns.
And then Twilight remembers that she read through this encyclopedia of prophecies, and goes to look the Elements up, and the “1000” jumps out at her immediately: That’s the thousandth year the prophecy has to refer to! She read the book on the origins of the Summer Sun Celebration just yesterday, she even quoted that interesting factoid to Spike! Nobody cares, nobody remembers, but Twilight knows what she just stumbled on.
I feel that claim needs justification, given the number of gods I've seen stripped of powers in fiction.
We know Celestia and Luna in particular, even know how to give up their power ("Twilight's Kingdom").
On the other paw, this stripping-of-rank-and-power happening silently and in the background is also a pretty big claim…
The Creator Faust's departure diminishing her children's strength is one way to explain it…
…now I'm desiring a unified PoC doc, with comments included, sidebars excluded. Hmm, how to effect that…
4526973
Thainen (my primary editor) has been suggesting for a while now to make a canon wiki, with categorized entries for observed cultural artifacts – to answer questions like “do ponies have electronics?” – growing around the PoC-style per-media-item lists.
I’m not sure a wiki is a convenient way to do it, because it involves some heavy moderation efforts, but maybe I’ll be able to cook something up.
4526973 Alternative: We did see it happening onscreen, when the three Princesses gave up their divine power to Twilight. Twilight then gave it up to Tirek, who was stripped of it by the Tree and Box of Harmony.
All hail the Divine Tree of Harmony!
4526989
That’s one way to look at it, but it would leave one divine entity still not hanging on that tree: Chrysalis. :)
4526879
4526658
4526677
So... the princesses are... ridin spinners?
4526989
Ahh, didn't make the connection past them giving it up to Twilight.
4526994
Chrysalis is Best Queen. Here, have a chrysalis smilie:
Though, one of the strongest backstory fanon theories (that she's Queen of the Flutterponies, be it Rosedust or otherwise) suggests that she already went through a depower, from the Smooze destroying Flutter Valley. (Lives in a wasteland, «turned […] "mean" and "grumpy"»…) and that works fine with her being the Elder Scrolls Sorcerer-type, really: immense energy capacity, but no longer a power font from which to readily draw.
Doesn't explain…wait. Let's try some malicious EoH for a minute.
Luna was blasted by the EoH in s1e2. She never fully recovers.
Celestia, if she were imprisoned, was freed by the EoH at that time. In any event, she banished Luna the first time with them.
Discord seizes control of sun and moon, intertwining his magic with both Princesses'. Discord is blasted by the EoH …in prehistory (presumably) and again in s2e2. His powers are never again quite that strong, are they? And that would also be a window to drain Celestia and Luna again, opening the door for Chrysalis-beats-Celestia.
Perhaps the Elements've been draining all the deities for a while, now.
Alternate
wild guessexplanation: The Elements never lost their connection to the Princesses on the changing of hooves (which is canon, huh, s2e1), but drew on their divinity instead of that of the Tree [given it being choked by vines/needing the Elements] to power their miracles.4527005
I think I have a better story to spin where the alicorns are not really divine, though. :)
4526879
Good point there.
4526925
Well, from context, I'm going to guess a few days before the Summer Sun Celebration.
Reminder that the very episode you're citing portrays Ponyville as a horribly unsafe town in the first place, where life-threatening danger occurs on a regular basis. Leaving the well open is small potatoes compared to some of the hazards seen in Mare Do Well.
I assume that a Summer Sun Celebration, of which Celestia is the undeniable centrepiece, would be a fairly busy time for her even under normal circumstances. And let's also not forget that this is the early dawn, and Celestia may have just arrived that morning (she certainly didn't seem to be in town the previous day). Whether Twilight stayed awake through the night, or just woke up, she wouldn't have had much of a window of opportunity to see Celestia, and she probably would've just been a distraction if Celestia were in the middle of preparing for a ceremony.
I also think it's worth considering that Twilight had already given up on trying to convince Celestia about the prophecy by this point. If she weren't resigned to it already, she probably wouldn't have gone along with her orders and went to Ponyville.
Pretty good guess. All seems plausible. It more or less lines up with my own notions of what was going on in the pilot.
4526970
We've got it, Mr. Holmes! The mystery is solved!
With all this new context, I may just have to rewatch the first season again... or, perhaps, in the order of the chronology.
4526928
I think the video says otherwise. They're not hooked up via yoke, they're hooked up via chains, and the chains are under tension.
4527432
The chains are under tension because the magic that permits them to drive a chariot in the first place messes with inertia. :)
4527427
I actually made a playlist generator to do that, so that I can regenerate the playlist every time I change the default order.
Unfortunately it depends on my rather idiosyncratic file naming pattern and making it work in a generic way is nontrivial.
4526949
4526965
Celestia has outright demonstrated some degree of clairvoyance in the show—and demonstrated the limits of said clairvoyance in the very same two-parter. She had a vision (via a bad dream) of Tirek's return. Yet the vision clearly didn't tell her that sending Discord to deal with Tirek would just make the situation worse. And then Celestia's backup plan hinged on hiding the existence of a fourth Alicorn Princess from Tirek—all while desperately hoping that Discord wouldn't spill the beans about Princess Twilight to Tirek anyway, and then just plain forgetting to remove Princess Twi's stained glass portrait. And we can't forget that nonsense about Twilight needing to defeat Tirek all by herself. And, just like the last time Celestia tried to pull that one (the Crystal Empire, against Sombra) Twilight only succeeded by disregarding Celestia's boneheaded orders to work alone.
The moral of the story is, having knowledge beyond that of mortal ponies doesn't necessarily imply that you know everything, or that you'll apply that knowledge wisely.
4527612
Actually, this particular episode is so bloody ambiguous – with that wink and flowers Discord gives to Celestia in the end, and her smile in response – that I would rather consider it an argument for Chessmaster Celestia than against.
There’s still that question, which doesn’t really have a particularly good answer: How exactly did Tirek, who spent well over a thousand years in Tartarus, where they probably don’t get TV or newspapers, know that three alicorn princesses exist, but at the same time, escape knowing that four exist.
All we got so far is “He probably laid low in a small town library and didn’t interact with anyone,” or some variation thereof, which isn’t very satisfactory.
I’m afraid there’s no objectively deciding just how much Celestia knows exactly. :)
4527648
Are you suggesting that Discord was in on Celestia's plan? And that the two-parter went more or less according to that plan?
4527745
That's the implication I am suspecting, yes.
EDIT: To be precise, I can't say if Discord was in on it beyond a certain point, but I do think this scene suggests that her plan included his betrayal, and he realized this eventually.
4527648 Random possibility: For all we know, Cadance visited Tartarus sometime. Maybe it was while Shining Armor was on guard duty there?
4527759 Basically, Discord's continued character development in the seasons after Tirek make it hard for me to think that Celestia's scheme against Tirek was anything more than a cluster
. Specifically, how Reformed Discord's interactions with Twilight take a specific form before "Twilight's Kingdom"—Discord does everything in his power to ruin Twilight's day, and then justifies it at the end by claiming he was just trying to teach her a Friendship Lesson—and then, somehow their interactions don't change at all after "Twilight's Kingdom". And there's "To Where and Back Again", where Discord does not care one whit that Twi was kidnapped by changelings, but goes on the warpath upon hearing that Fluttershy was taken.
If we say that "Twilight's Kingdom" was Discord just pretending to join Tirek's side, specifically to set up events so Twilight could receive the final key for the Magic Tree Box, well, that sort of fits the general pattern of "Three's a Crowd" or "What About Discord?" Except in both of those episodes, Discord showed absolutely zero subtlety, and revealed the deception—that he was faking his illness, or that he'd specifically organized the social events to make Twilight feel excluded—as soon as he got what he wanted. He gave away the game by gloating, and way more blatantly than by winking to Celestia. And there's the way his defection to Tirek specifically hurt Fluttershy. Discord: willing to break his best friend's heart to help Twilight get a powerup, yet doesn't give a damn when Twilight gets taken by changelings?
(I'd also wonder why the Tree of Harmony would accept a Key given under such insincere conditions... but from what I've heard about the Accord arc in the comics, maybe the show's writers wouldn't have any issues with the powers of Harmony falling for a con like that.)
If we say that Discord's betrayal was sincere, but Celestia was planning around it, and the flowers and wink were Discord's gesture of grudging respect towards the superior chessmaster... I don't think Discord would ever do that, either. He's a thin-skinned, sore loser who can't take the abuse he dishes out. In his debut, he professes a love of disorder, but gets pissed when Fluttershy breaks from his "script" for corrupting her. He spends a whole episode repeating in-jokes just to exclude Twilight, yet completely breaks down as soon as he finds himself on the outside of a joke. So, as much as Discord loves manipulating others, he would hate being the one manipulated. Doubly so in this case, because Discord would absolutely blame Celestia for making him break Fluttershy's heart. If Celestia puppeteered the event, then I could only see Discord giving her a bouquet of dead flowers with a note reading, "Wow. You risked every life in your kingdom, just to help Twilight get some gaudy mane extensions? And I thought I was cold." And then the note and the bouquet would both explode in her face.
GRANTED the most straightforward reading of "Twilight's Kingdom"—that Discord sincerely betrayed the ponies, and Celestia didn't see it coming—still has issues with season 5 and beyond. Namely, the way Discord professed sincere friendship with Twilight when she rescued him, and then proceeded to treat her exactly the same way as before. Still, this strikes me as the least broken interpretation.
4528242
Maybe it is, but it is still broken.
Unfortunately, the appearance of the Friendship Castle prevents us from moving the episodes around to fix it, so we must assume a missing piece in any of the possible interpretations.
Might as well make it a pretty piece if we need to add one.
4527648
Is it plausible that Tirek didn't know about Cadance? To elaborate:
Tirek knew about Celestia and Luna, and learned that another alacorn [1*] had recently ascended, but didn't end up knowing much about said recent-ascendee. When he reached Celestia & Luna & Cadance, he went with the obvious conclusion and figured that Cadance was this "Twilight Sparkle" who'd just been coronated. Depending on what sorts of headlines Cadance had been in or not been in recently, he might easily have gotten out of Canterlot without stumbling across anything that gave him cause to rethink that position, and once he was in a different area the chances of him stumbling across anything that solidly contradicted it would drop significantly, since at that point he could justify a lot of discrepancies as journalistic/etc inaccuracies. The window was simply a natural but unfortunate oversight, one of the few things he could encounter while rushing off to gather "his" missing magic that would shatter that conclusion with a mere glance rather than requiring him to pause and research while "his" magic slipped further out of reach.
[*1] Incidentally, do we have a canon spelling (show-only and/or extended canon) on alacorn-/alicorn-the-phenotype? I know the writers probably had the definition-creeped meaning of "alicorn" in mind, but the pronunciation is close enough that I'd like to imagine/pretend everyone's just slurring the much-more-sensible (at least assuming I'm not screwing up the compound components somehow) "alacorn" instead.