Assuming ponies WERE tyrannical creatures bent on domination.... · 4:22pm Dec 31st, 2016
I should drag myself into writing a story of how humanity as it exists today would ACTUALLY fare against a race of creatures with the power to traverse dimensional barriers, wield arcane arts which violate every law of physics, are truly determined to take over the world, and experienced (by the simple fact that they're conquerors and not happy-go-lucky candy-colored idiots) in tactics of espionage and warfare.
Be honest, we wouldn't stand a chance in hell.
But such a story is... really boring. It'd be as one-sided as REAL aliens showing up and wanting to blow us all up. As I've noted before, they'd just sit in high orbit and fling small asteroids at us. Basic mass-drivers. We'd have no defense whatsoever, and for god's sake, any missiles we'd launch would appear laughably slow to beings with ships which can travel at the very least at light-speed. They'd blast them to bits before they approached within hundreds of miles.
Eh, maybe if I'm really annoyed at humanity one day, I'll slap something together just as a demonstration that humanity is not as invincible and all-knowing as it deludes itself into believing.
About the violating the laws of physics, isn't it possible that the ponies magic just wouldn't work because the laws of physics of our universe are so different? AKA they show up prepared to conquer us, find out that they essentially are now just talking horses with spears and 2 kinda larger horses and are roundly defeated?
Different head canons, man. It's very unclear what the limits of pony magic are, and if an author wants to put it on the lower end it's totally fine for humans to end up victorious.
It's an ancient trope. War of The Worlds was born out of a trend where everyone and their dog was writing all sorts of ridiculous "invasion stories" where every country you could imagine suddenly decided to invade England.
4362961 Problem: they would know this the instant they tried to open a portal... since the end in our universe would never open in the first place.
Logic, people, use it.
4363139 Head canons make for stories that don't hold up under any legitimate scrutiny or analysis. People can like what they want, but to then try to defend what is demonstrably implausible as rational defies all logic and reason.
This is the biggest issue I have with such fics, the authors try to defend their story AS THOUGH IT'S ENTIRELY RATIONAL. We are dealing with magic and unicorns and interdimensional portals. The entire setting itself is preposterous, to then compound the absurdity by postulating humanity could deal with a force it cannot even properly conceive of is stretching irrationality to the absolute.
4363302 The difference being that in "War of the Worlds", humanity WAS helpless and was on the verge of complete loss... but the Martians didn't consider microbes. In fact, Wells was even cleverer than most know, since they haven't read the book and/or don't recall the little tidbits of nuance dabbed here and there, and he had a rationale for that as well: Martian society was so sterile for so long they'd forgotten the notions of infection all together.
A brilliantly written story, comprehending completely germ theory at a time when most medical practice in the US still relied on bloodletting and believed in humor imbalances.
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I'm not saying it wasn't a good story, just saying that it was born out of a popular (and rather odd) trend at the time, and the concept itself may go back even earlier. The only reason we remember it was because of the things you said, among others.
4365295 Alien invasion stories were either exceedingly rare or non-existent before HG Wells... primarily for the simple fact that the concept of aliens didn't really exist, and the few examples we have of such stories predating Wells are of aliens as either god-like creatures or simple observers.
Wells novel is the first truly 'modern' interpretation of alien civilizations and their potentially aggressive motivations towards other worlds.
4365260 When I say head canon, I mean people have different opinions on how powerful pony magic is. Some people think that it's relatively weak and lifting up a water tower is the most Twilight Sparkle can do with her magic, and she's by far the strongest magic user. In that case, it's not crazy for humans to beat ponies in military conflict.
4365354 I've given LONG explanations as to how even basic telekinesis is an insurmountable advantage.
For one basic example: how do you stop any race that can knock all your aircraft from the skies with a mental push and toss your ground equipment about like tissue paper in a hurricane?
Remember, these invader ponies MUST be a race TRAINED to invade. The innocent ponies we know would NEVER EVEN CONSIDER SUCH A THING IN THE FIRST PLACE, therefore limiting an alt-take on them to the limited capabilities of the show's canon is counter-intuitive. The invader ponies would be a race who prepared for invasion, trained and possibly even bred themselves for greater power. We would not be facing a pony army of bakers, farmers, librarians, animal caretakers, etc... we'd be facing Pony Hitler and a legion of trained invaders with a power we couldn't even fathom how to defend against as we wouldn't even know a thing about how it worked.
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But the point I'm making in some people's head canons unicorns are not nearly that strong. Twilight Sparkle and other alicorns could do it to a couple a day at her best, everyone else is too weak to affect large objects at a distance. Every other pony has the equivalent telekinetic strength as the strength of a normal man and it's short ranged. Then you just need to send in multiple planes with many large bombs so the pony can't stop them all, and it's mass carnage for the ponies. Doesn't matter how much the ponies train, their magic has limits, like no matter how much you train a human soldier he'll never lift a tank above his head.
I don't read many stories where humans are at war with ponies, because for the most part they are pretty crappy, but they are not inherently bad.
4365432 We don't really know what the unicorn guards can do. And we've seen how powerful Shining Armor's shield is.
My point is, if the ponies (and pay attention carefully here) WERE INVADERS... they would NOT BE SENDING WEAKLINGS THROUGH... They would have been watching us. They'd know where to hit us. They'd know what to STEAL to hold us hostage. Who to ABDUCT to throw chains of command into chaos. War is more than just charging in blindly, and only those who have no knowledge of warfare or are simply harboring a human-superiority bias would suppose the ponies who saw enough of us to decide to invade us would simply resort to an idiotic open cavalry charge when they have dozens of avenues of subtle and secret attacks humanity could neither predict nor defend against.
Portals can open anywhere, and can be used for many various things.
Or, to put it another way, if any of them had the tactical mind of me, humanity would have lost before they even knew they were at war.
4365470 Shining's Shield broke when changeling's were jumping on it. It was when he was weakened, but it still seems very likely that a short artillery barrage would bring down the shield at full strength. Or maybe it wouldn't. My point is that it's up to the author to determine how strong Shining's shield really is.
And it depends on how many portals they can open. If they can simultaneously open multiple portals wherever they want, then your plan works. But maybe they can't. It depends on one's head canon.
4365332
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_literature
4365470 Well, as for the Unicorn guards, they don't seem too able to thwart anything more than local crime (maybe not even that, although I haven't been keeping up on the show so I could be wrong with what I'm about to say), as with every time we've seen them they have utterly failed in their job of protecting. This is acceptable when the series starts, because they had an abnormally long amount of time without serious conflicts. But it strikes me as odd that the guards weren't trained to do better later on. When faced with a changeling invasion in the capital of Equestria, they could do jack shit. They were all captured. I know that the changelings are a formidable foe, and especially so to the guards who all look the same (which makes me wonder why Celestia did that, she knew the changelings existed, so why make her police and military force, the guards, look exactly alike, making it very easy to infiltrate for changelings?) but I'd imagine Celestia would at least keep a high amount of guards in THE capital of their great nation, and seeing as how Shining had a barrier up I'd imagine they thought something was coming. So whats with the shit military?
4365600 Shining's shield broke when he was so drained he barely had the strength to stand up anymore. That tends to indicate that his full-strength shield is QUITE powerful.
Also... you neglect to note the ponies would not just be standing still while being shot at.
Stop ignoring practical strategy.
4368760 Again, since you've not been paying attention: THE PONIES OF THE SHOW WOULD NEVER INVADE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!
Looking at the show as the absolute extent of their capabilities is completely disingenuous.
Get that in your brain FIRST, then consider what a race of magical equines who are AGGRESSIVE and PLAN on invading other dimensions would do with their magical abilities.
Frankly, seeing how well Muggles fare against Death Eaters is a far better comparison.
4366017 Yeah... most of those are traditional nations invading other nations.
ALIEN invasion stories were almost unheard of before HG Wells.
4369468 But my point is we only have a very vague idea of how strong the shield is. Could an army of people with banging on the shield with swords get through? Almost certainly not. But if you introduce heavy WW1 style artillery barrages that last hours, it might get through. Or it might not. It depends on how strong the author decides to make pony magic. The author's laws of magic should be internally consistent and also hold up when compared to the show, but that's all they have to do.
It's unclear how strong the average pony's, even after being military trained, magic is too. Maybe besides for a few Twilight-level unicorns throwing over really heavy rocks there just isn't much the ponies can do against well fortified siege lines and steady artillery barrages.
If the ponies have access to the power you assume they do, I could very well see humans being slaughtered. But they don't necessarily have the power you assume they do.
4369768 I hate to use the awful villain Sue herself, but *sigh* Starlight Glimmer was not born with great power. She learned massive numbers of spells and because equal in power to an alicorn. Which included TIME TRAVEL.
Now, do please tell me how humans would combat ponies who could now even attack them randomly throughout the past?
The hypothetically aggressive invader race of ponies would have countless tactics at their disposal, and be FAR more capable than the peace-softened species in the show.
Remember, they've had no wars at all for a thousand years. I'd sooner fear an attack by Buddhist monks.
4372232 Starlight Glimmer may very well have been born with that much innate magic and was just a late bloomer, so she'd be among that handful of ponies who can use magic to do effective damage.
As for time travel and it' tactical usefulness, the type that does not result in a stable loop may be completely unpredicatable and unwieldy. Just slight changes in how Starlight prevented the Rainboom resulted in very different apocalyptic scenarios for Equestria. Or maybe Starlight was just using it wrong and it could be used to easily defeat humans; my point is that it's up to the author to determine how powerful magic is. As long as the author explains at some point, ideally fairly early in the story, why the ponies couldn't use this or that spell to win and it's a sensible explanation, it's fine.
If the author does not address any of these points and is writing a story about a pitched war between humans and ponies while ignoring time travel and does not be specific in how powerful unicorn magic when trained is, then they're a bad author.
I'm more disturbed by the fic writers who assume that ponies would immediately seek us out for the purposes of porking them cross eyed?
Like... seriously?
Okay... assuming they have a similar reproductive system to our own, and given there would be things a male human would find attractive in a pony mare (not to sure on females, and gays... well, I'm straight, so I'd rather not guess) the chances of them actually developing a deep bond like that is nil, both because of biology and culture. Straight banging, sure, companions and compatriots undoubtedly, but pairing off, no chance in hell
4373135 Stable time loops are a fallacy to begin with. You can't have one without an inevitable initiation paradox, unless it follows the pattern of a localized region caught in a self-repeating loop disconnected from the rest of time. Both Star Trek and Doctor Who have featured such loops, with Tom Baker's Doctor naming such localized loops 'chronic hysteresis' in the "Meglos" serial.
However, that wouldn't matter much to the ponies, nor would any paradox really, since they'd be coming from a different universe. Our time would not be intrinsically linked to theirs. It would present them quite the opportunity to mess around with our timeline until circumstances arrive at what they desire.
4373802 A small number might find the exotic strangely attractive, as this is the same as humans, after all. But large numbers of them finding weird bipedal monkey people overwhelmingly desirable isn't at all plausible.
Unless... it's a nymphomaniac Ponyverse! A fraction of the Pervertverse which spawned such atrocities as the Twilight Saga fandom!
4374609 You seem to be missing my point. My point is that there are a non-zero amount of scenarios in which ponies are significantly weaker than you think they are, even after military training, and it's up to the author to identify one of those scenarios and explain it well to the readers so that it's believable that humans can beat ponies. If the author doesn't do it well, then your critiques are valid. If the author does do it well, your critiques are invalid.
My point is not to try to go over with you every way ponies can be interpreted that does not lead to them immediately crushing humanity.
We could simply infect their computers with a PC virus.
And then they will need to come down here in earth AND BEG US to give them an antivirus! AND BAM, they will be in debt with us!
Simple as that.
4374633 Ok, then please show me the limitations of military magic.
You can't. And that is MY point. We cannot even comprehend how it works, thus we'd have no way to combat it.
4376093 Please tell me you're joking and just poking fun at the ridiculous solution in "Independence Day". If you seriously think that would work, I must add your name to The List.
4376475
What has this site done to you!? Come here. Come here I say! You need a hug.
4376472 The limitations are that they don't have much practicality, should the author wish it so.
Time travel is uncontrollable and easily backfires, therefore useless for military application.
Telekinesis is difficult and only the strongest unicorns can throw anything, and even then they're essentially just a living catapult.
Dimensional doorways are hard and can only be opened in one location, meaning they don't have much strategic value after one surprise attack.
Teleportation is very powerful, but only the strongest unicorns can do it, and it's risky since one surprise bullet when you're behind enemy lines means one of the strongest unicorns is dead.
Shield magic is strong, but can be taken done by an artillery barrage.
Now, maybe magic doesn't really work like that, but if the author wants it to it can. The show is ambiguous enough that a writer can write it that way.
4374613
Personally, I've written an Assassin's Creed crossover with a displaced population popping up some thousand years ago (its placed with Chengar Quordaths Lunar Rebellion era)
Simply put, both have influence. For example, much of the big three religions, islam christianity judaism, have been largely quelled by the Crown, and while most still retain much of their differences, all acknowledge and respect their sects right to exist. Another example being the celebration of Hearthswarming being seperate of the celebration of Christs birth, which is held in the spring.
On the human side, you often see human influence in structure and culture, culturally an emphasis on personal freedom and marshal practice, and in terms of building, for example, the blind lady often is placed outside courts as opposed to say Celestia or Luna
4376804 YER ON THE LIST!!
Frankly, not a single one of your arguments has any merit. They're all based entirely on your desire to set limitations on that which you don't even fully comprehend. You wish them to lose and so you downplay and ignore anything which grants them an advantage. However, in real combat, willful ignorance would not save you. Rather, it would tend to lead to an even quicker and more devastating defeat.
Tell that to... pretty much every time travel war story ever. Not limited to "The Terminator" and "Doctor Who"'s Time War.
Most of the foals can manage it to some level. Rarity lifts and manipulates many objects simultaneously with pin-point accuracy. And all this without any specific training. Also, telekinesis was considered such a powerful tactical possibility that even the CIA investigated the possibility of its existence at any level. You don't need to lift a soldier. Just pinch the carotid arteries for 10 seconds and they're unconscious. 30 and their severely brain damaged or dead. Telekinesis is one of the most powerful and versatile of any supernatural powers.
You're talking about EqG... bad form. At any rate, if that tiny destructible portal was their only entry way, invasion would never even be considered a possibility by anyone with a brain (which clearly excluded Sunset Satan). ASSUMING the ponies WANTED TO INVADE, they'd only do so when they had a reliable and movable doorway under their complete control. Otherwise they wouldn't even try and the whole argument is moot. Buuuuut, we also saw that Twilight God's unstable magic was ripping holes through dimensions everywhere in the 3rd movie... so there ARE ways in which to open countless portals even in the EqG world.
Training. Military training. Magical military training. This tends to strengthen one. Watch more anime. They do magical training well. Also, you once more ignore TACTICAL POSITIONING. The strongest mages would be the most heavily defended. Sheesh, even D&D campaigners know this.
The ponies will be firing back with all manner of things, and attacking from above with pegasi upon the rather slow and/or immobile artillery positions. The ponies' shields only need to last a minute. Human guns have NO SHIELDS. Guess which side gets taken out first?
And your last absurd declaration pretty much proves my point: the authors WANT the ponies to fail and so paint them in the most preposterous manner possible. That's about as legitimate as me deciding that they all take a serum and turn into indestructible sephiracorns which can fire planet-destroying Kame-hame-has out their asses.
In a strategic analysis, magic and any other supernatural ability gives anyone who wields it a staggering advantage over someone who cannot. This is true in Harry Potter, X-Men and every other superhero comic ever written, and countless fantasy and anime stories.
You're going up against the weight of centuries of literature and even analysis by rather significantly vast intellects such as Isaac Asimov, who understood very well exactly what was possible with abilities which could violate the laws of physics.
4379746
You're cynical, but logical. I appreciate the realism.
I salute you, man.
Though if I may incur a thought...though I completely agree with your words on the matter, such a tale DOES deserve a worthy adversary for the ponies (who, with super powers, WOULD logically succeed). So imagine this: what if, through scientific enginuity, they created a human that could potentially use the same magical abilities as the very ponies that are fighting against them, or at least an artificial version of it? A super human if you will? And what if by some hypothetical miracle, these super humans could be at least somewhat mass produced?
I am curious to see your answer.
4386868 Let's answer your question... with another question!
Why does everyone want the ponies to become interdimensional invaders in the first place?
Frankly, some nation from OUR world would try to invade Equestria first! All those riches? The gold and gems beyond compare? There are still plenty of countries for whom that would be an irresistible temptation if they found a way to travel there with an army.
The entire concept of making the happy and peaceful Equestrians into invaders is based on an absurdity, twisting them to such a degree that they no longer resemble themselves and bear far more in common with the worst of our world's tyrannical productions, and every attempt to rectify it only compounds it further.
Hence, why I say, if the ponies WERE to that degree invasive, they would have become like us. Only with weapons that we'd have no way of countering. And, like any REAL invaders, they'd crush us quickly and efficiently. It's as simple as imagining Pony Nazis and assuming we're Poland.
4389795
...you've stumped me.
you're good at this man. 
4389852 I have the power of SCIENCE!! Nothing can defeat my genie-us-ness! As Peter Venkman once said, "Back off, man! I'm a scientist!" (It is true, Alondro is a scientist... with access to genetic engineering technology... be afraid.)
4390190
Is it too late to make an alliance with you? I hear I'm good with artillery and explosives.
4390571 Of course you may join up! I just have to mutate you into the proper form and stuff you into a Mark III Travel Machine.
farm4.staticflickr.com/3400/3200444310_b22e66c797_z.jpg
*Alondro scoots around in his life-support chair, pushing buttons with his withered arm*
media.pinkiedb.com/photos/Derpy/Art/84263%20-%20artist-trotsworth%20crossover%20davhorse%20davros%20derpy%20derpy_hooves%20dinky_doo%20dinky_hooves%20doctor_who%20Doctor_Whooves.png
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4391748 Excellent! Drink this vial of radioactive mutagens! Assuming you don't get all the cancers of everywhere, you'll become a tentacle mutant!
4392719
Sounds completely unsafe...
GIMME!