The Root of This Tree is a Myth · 10:39am May 26th, 2016
Now that I’ve actually brought this up in Aporia, and got complaints that I’m being incongruous, I need to do something about it, since my readers are probably not quite as familiar with secondary canon as I am.
Journal of the Two Sisters is an actual, printed book, written by Amy Keating Rogers, and is billed as “As seen in the show,” this is literally supposed to be the journal Twilight finds in Castle Mane-ia. It also happens to be the secondary canon source giving the most interesting and the most controversial statements on early pony history. I use it a lot in canon research, because there simply isn’t anything else.
It’s also written like a book for little children, because, you know, that’s what it is. For us.
But what is it for ponies?
Now, any serious discussion of the subject would not be possible without knowing something about the content of that book. But since it’s so cringeworthy at times, I wouldn’t want to subject anyone to actually reading it. You don’t write diaries like that, no matter how old are you. Which is why I’m presenting an entry by entry compendium of the Journal with loads of footnotes.
Presume sarcasm tags where appropriate.
Journal of the Two Sisters
- Celestia writes about being offered the princessdom. Mentioned historical characters: Star Swirl(1), Smart Cookie, Private Pansy, Clover the Clever. Alicorns are explicitly referred to as being unbiased, and somehow “standing for” love, harmony and friendship. Celestia insists that she and Luna wish to be guardians of Equestria rather than its rulers. Because “that sounds much friendlier.”(2)
- Luna tries to write in Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe, but immediately switches out (whut?) and declares that it is explicitly a feature of the “Royal Canterlot Voice”, and “The Alicorns”(3) thought it was an important feature of their education, so Celestia and Luna learned it “when we were fillies,” whenever that was. The entry explicitly predates being crowned, so the term “Royal Canterlot Voice” has nowhere to come from. Without RCV, Luna’s voice is pointedly slangy and non-archaic.
- Celestia comments that the coronation feels like deja vu. Because when they were fillies, they used to fly around Canterlot hills playing princesses and making crowns from local gems. The coronation party ends with sun/moon swap, in which Star Swirl guides five other unicorns in the spell. Different sets of five are required for either object.
- Luna’s entry is just “Dear Diary, We art now a princess!!! Luna”
- Celestia comments that they still don’t have cutie marks, even though everypony else is already much younger than they are.(4)
- Luna reports on touring Equestria, deciding where to build a castle. Everfree is explicitly already an “all on their own” area. (?) The magical tree is first mentioned, and Luna has nothing but vague feelings about it.
- Celestia reports that Star Swirl enlightens them about the true nature on the Tree of Harmony. Supposedly it’s the most famous tree in the world(5) and Celestia read about it in books.(6) Because it has legends about it that say that it “holds the elements of all that is good and true.” How exactly did those come about is never elaborated. The markings on the tree are currently sun, moon and star. The decision to build the RPS castle next to the tree is made.
- Luna describes her desire for a castle full of trapdoors and secret rooms “because a traditional castle is boring.”(7)
- Celestia mentions she wants a large library. To “finally put all the books” that she collected. Where did she keep them previously remains just as unclear as where she got them from.
- Luna describes construction ponies being lost in Everfree and chasing after them. She finds them locked in a cave by a manticore. Why the manticore chose to imprison ponies instead of chasing them off or eating them is never elaborated. Somehow Luna isn’t able to take down the manticore, and Celestia and Star Swirl mysteriously arrive and help. For no adequately explained reason, Luna is capable of two-way communication with the manticore, which surprises her. The manticore says that construction ponies disassembled his lair for construction materials, which caused his ire. In a fit of friendship the manticore helps them build the castle.
- Celestia reports that they somehow talked bats and owls into helping build the castle too.
- Luna writes nothing of consequence.
- Celestia reports about the castle being finished and Star Swirl introducing them to “King Bullion of the Unicorns,” father of Princess Platinum. Who not only appears out of nowhere whatsoever, but somehow avoided being introduced to them during the coronation. He is still king of the region he kinged over before that coronation. Platinum chews the sisters out over not having their cutie marks and therefore not being qualified to rule, and Celestia comments that they are “much older” than Platinum. Luna takes offense.
- Luna reports using RCV, which Platinum ignores. Then Luna sics the manticore, who mysteriously acquired the name “Melvin” since he was mentioned last, on Platinum. Scaring her with the manticore doesn’t work either. So Luna uses a trapdoor to toss Platinum out of the castle. That somehow gets them both to apologize to each other. So they’re best friends now.
- Celestia reports that Platinum contributes to castle decoration by weaving tapestries. It is mentioned that Platinum’s kingdom is “The Unicorn Kingdom.”(8)
- Luna reports that Celestia was meeting with Pansy, Clover and Cookie. Instead of participating, Luna uses her prank control panel on them. All three are described as female.
- Celestia reports on the same meeting. And writes “Luna, I know it was you.”(9) All three racial reps praise their superiors except Clover, who, for some reason, praises Star Swirl instead of Platinum.(10)
- Luna describes meeting with Puddinghead. They play hide and seek. Luna is surprised that Puddinghead wins by using her prank control panel on her.
- Celestia reports that Star Swirl invited her to his library. Star Swirl supposedly has a scroll about the Alicorn Amulet.(11) Celestia comments that writings on alicorn magic she read before are totally unlike the texts on unicorn magic Star Swirl has.
- Luna reports on the same meeting and mentions that Star Swirl wants to “work on a spell” with her, rather than with Celestia. This never seems to come up afterwards, unless he meant teaching her a spell.
- Celestia mentions Star Swirl is working on a spell involving cutie marks, obviously implied to be the one from “Magical Mystery Cure”, as well as time travel spells. “It’s About Time” spell supposedly already exists.
- Luna explores Everfree on the statement from Melvin that a part of it is “forbidden” and finds zebras for no apparent reason. All zebras rhyme. And they somehow mistake Luna for a manticore. Somehow zebras have never seen ponies before. Zebras supposedly fended off manticores with shield potions and spells.
- Celestia follows Luna. Zebras live in “forbidden area past Everfree forest”.(12) Celestia finds them and mentions she only read of them in books.
- Luna describes that Star Swirl attempted to teach her a superpowerful spell to move the stars (gweh) which he himself could not cast. As this fails, Luna asks to teach her the spell to move the moon, he agrees, but does not proceed with it.
- Celestia describes Star Swirl excitedly announcing he actually mastered a free time travel spell. Due to an error in calculations, this spell also is an “age travel spell” and Star Swirl is now much younger.
- Luna describes Hurricane as the “fastest flier in Equestria”(13) While flying with Hurricane and Celestia, a griffon bumps into Celestia. Hurricane comments that before founding Equestria pegasi had skirmishes with griffons.(14) Due to the change in management, griffons wish to renegotiate the borders by force. Princesses wish to go do the diplomatic thing.
- Celestia describes the meeting with Gregor the king of griffons, who is “grumbly, gruff and generally a grouch.” Somehow, he considers a previous treaty made with “pegasi” null and void now. Gregor kicks the alicorns out.
- Luna implies that the original pegasi government does not exist anymore because Hurricane was “merely in charge of weather brigade” and is currently reassembling a defense force.(15) Melvin tells Luna that griffons have a sweet tooth.(16) Spying among griffons (oh really) Melvin discovers Gregor prefers eclairs. (no comment) He also hints that manticores are afraid of rhyme, and suspects griffons are too. Star Swirl supposedly can make eclairs, so armed with eclairs and rhyme the princesses invade griffons and offer rhyming greeting and eclairs. Rhymes scare Gregor, eclairs placate him and he apologizes and willingly reinstates the borders. After asking for Star Swirl’s recipe.
- Celestia mentions Star Swirl frequently time travels, with no mention of further age changes.
- Luna mentions Crystal Empire for the first time, mentioning Princess Amore. Amore is explicitly still ruling the crystal ponies even though they are part of Equestria. Supposedly the Crystal Heart has been stolen. Amore is a “unicorn princess,” not an alicorn, just like in FIENDship is Magic #1. The relation between CE et al described is essentially that all pony kingdoms are now protectorates of Celestia & Luna. Crystal ponies, who seemingly came from nowhere, found the Crystal Heart, with which Amore got her cutie mark and became a princess. The heart was stolen by a dragon.(17)
- Celestia mentions that the heart was found in “Crystalline mountain” where crystal ponies mined crystals. While the dragon was asleep in his lair in the mountain and hoarding.
- Luna describes the encounter with dragon. Participating are Luna, Celestia, Hurricane with a squad of pegasi, Melvin, and for some stupid reason, Gregor. Dragon recovered the heart, but does not actually value it, the notion of protecting his property is more important than the heart. Dragon’s statement (which nobody refutes) that the heart was originally stolen by crystal ponies from his hoard and he sees no reason to give it to them is somehow seen as a major sign of disrespect(18) and Celestia goes RCV on him. Somehow this scares the dragon even though he broke off a binding spell from both Celestia and Luna just prior. Celestia does not remember what happened. Return of the heart is celebrated in “the very first Crystal Faire.”
- Celestia reports that Star Swirl showed up with grey beard, “as young as when we’d first met him”(19) and explained that this is due to a failed sun/moon swap. What nobody told Celestia and Luna is that other participants of the sun/moon swap can only participate in the ritual for a short time – or even just twice, it’s not clear, but ten unicorns get expended every day – and eventually their magic is “depleted forever.” Star Swirl is the only wizard who ever managed to do it consistently(20) and failed when he tried to lower the moon solo, after they ran out of adult magic-capable unicorns. (huh?!) Star Swirl references the myths that supposedly say that for alicorns, sun/moon swap is actually beneficial instead. (huh) Since Star Swirl’s magic is now depleted, he can’t actually teach them the required spells himself. (HUH?!) Princesses try the sun/moon swap with no instruction. It works and they get cutie marks. They immediately recognize them as being related to the Tree of Harmony. Celestia asks Star Swirl about the star symbol (i.e. Twilight’s cutie mark) on the tree and feels he knows something but won’t say.
- Luna reports that once the sun/moon swap is done, using the energy received from the celestial bodies they set out to restore magic to the unicorns, which also causes Star Swirl’s beard to un-grey.
- Celestia’s entry concludes the journal (why?!) and says nothing of consequence.
Reasoning
Overall, both the style of the journal and the factual statements of emotion given therein do not match someone “older than anypony else,” but rather, it’s like a little girl’s diary more than anything else. I’ve seen notebooks like that. I even wrote in one. It’s not written by someone older than someone else’s father.
And yet, it’s supposed to be an in-universe document. But if the journal is an in-universe document, it can’t exist. It contains enough internal inconsistencies, contradictions and nonsense to be thought of as fake. At the same time, there’s more than enough information that we know to be true which is not public knowledge of any kind in Equestria, which means it can’t be entirely fake either. You basically need to both be Celestia and not be Celestia to write it.
That’s where canon research ends and actual writing begins. I have in mind an author for this journal that makes a good story.
And their story is one of the stories to be told in Aporia. :)
(1) Who explicitly has a brown beard at this point.
(2) That’s literally what it says, and certainly doesn’t strike me as something an adult would say.
(3) Who disappear out of the narrative as mysteriously as they entered it. Remember the controversial statement from The Crystaling? That’s what makes it worse.
(4) “Much” can mean anything, but it feels like it means younger, not magnitudes younger, so probably they aren’t more than a hundred or so years old by that point…
(5) Which is incredibly odd, considering that ponies have only arrived onto the continent recently, and it’s very unlikely it has been sufficiently explored in the past. It was empty enough to settle, after all.
(6) Where did Celestia’s book collection come from is never explained. Alicorn sisters exist in a vacuum at the moment the journal starts, and yet supposedly come from a culture that could produce books – imagine the industry involved – which then immediately vanishes.
(7) It is never explained where did Luna ever hear about or see a “traditional” castle and what one would look like. Our “traditional” castles tend to actually contain secrets, so the whole entry is puzzling.
(8) So what about, say, Trot from FIENDship is Magic #5, I wonder.
(9) This entry immediately follows the one where Luna has described her pranking in detail. Either Celestia started writing without even a glance at the previous page, or… something?! What’s the point of saying that if Luna just admitted it?
(10) Sometimes it looks like Celestia and Luna hate Platinum’s guts.
(11) Which dates this trinket way back and makes it really incongruous for it to show up in a random pawn shop.
(12) Which, according to the official map, would put it straight into Appleloosa or Dodge Junction…
(13) In general, the text is written to refer to primary canon as often as possible even in cases where it would be better not to. This is one of those.
(14) The timespan for this to happen in is quite short.
(15) Notice how the original government of the unicorns and later on, the original government of the Crystal Empire still exist, but pegasi government is mysteriously missing for no adequately explained reason.
(16) Basically the only reason for them to be portrayed as such is MMMystery on the Friendship Express.
(17) See my post about historical chronology of Equestria…
(18) Which strikes me as quite arrogant. So you have a piece of property, say, a stove. You aren’t using it per se, but it’s a work of art, say, and you keep it for investment or for its aesthetic value. Then, someone breaks into your house through a wall, and goes off with the said object. When you find it and take it back, they insist you return it, because they need it to keep warm. And you taking it back is wrong. Huh?…
(19) Which has to be older than yesterday, since he aged in reverse upon time travel at least once.
(20) One would think that this is probably because he’s not the actual battery for the spell…
Canonical inconsistencies make for some of the best stories. I look forward to seeing what you do with this mess.
You know, it's very sad because this is a very good looking book. I did buy a copy for my daughter a long time ago. But yeah, I have to agree that the content is, indeed cringeworthy. Especially since my own story has such an elaborate ancient-history backstory which entirely contradicts absolutely everything in that book.
Jeebus, it sounds like the greatest collection of flailing and asspulling ever devised. D:
3973587
It kind of is. :) A very pretty collection, at that.
But if it is an in-universe document written by somepony who is only tangentially familiar with the subject matter, rather than titular authors, I can assume that it contains some truth, some misrepresentation, some outright fabrication, and in general smooth over everything that horrifies me about it.
And the identity of that somepony and their reason to engage in the whole business do make a good story. :)
Thank you. I never managed to read past the first few chapters; the cringe was simply too strong, no matter the intended age of the reader. Your heroic efforts have fruitfully expanded my knowledge about the canon setting, arguably to my regret.
On the positive side, this piping hot mess of a journal inspired an interesting story.
My thought upon seeing this book at the store and skimming through it was that it would make a lovely hidden safe book. where you cut out the innards and put something better inside. Like alcohol.
3973688 Some versions of Celestia would be perfectly happy to write it herself... around the time of the show, with her tongue very firmly in cheek.
3973949
Oh, certainly, Trollestia would, but I'm not going there for the same reason I'm not using Discord as an excuse: Trollestia is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. :)
3973740
I second this.
And when has that ever stopped millions of people from taking such a document as literal truth?
My personal headcanon is that this is a fake. Ponies got to hear about the diary and clamored to see it. The thought of revealing the sisters secrets to the general public made Twlight panic, and Spike wrote this thing (based off several different "historical" comics he'd read) to pass off as the genuine article. Since ponies have goldfish-sized brains, they accepted it, and the crisis was averted.
3973587
Sadly... yes.
3974085
That works, but it's a no-paradox solution, where's the fun in that? :)
3974113
Yeah... it was just the easiest way for me to try to dismiss the whole thing from my operational mental pony-space.
3974135
...Mind you, it IS a paradox solution if Twilight then sends the fake backwards in time for herself to discover and the genuine article never existed. :)
3974166
That could be fun... But I think it would drive Twilight mad. Damn near did it to me!
3974184
...but it's fun to drive Twilight mad!
3974188
Yeah... it really, really is.
So glad you are discussing this Oliver. I have never read the journal myself, but I have read other really detailed summaries on this site. A lot of this stuff is really valuable, even if it is contradicted by the show. Key thoughts:
The fate of the Pegasi city-state seems fairly obvious to me: They just moved the whole city over to Equestria and renamed it Cloudsdale. I can see how that would reasonably change the terms of a treaty to the Griffons.
Celestia and Luna supposedly come from a lost tribe of alicorns, according to what I've heard. That certainly explains them being raised in a certain way and having books on alicorn magic. The fate of this lost tribe is unknown. I wonder if Anubis plays into their fate. If their are legends about the alicorns, then at one time the alicorns moved the sun and moon before stopping. From the comics it is suggested that Anubis taught unicorns how to move the sun and moon, so it might be that he fought and killed most alicorns, took their power, and then was in turn overthrown by the Cats and the responsibility for the job fell to the unicorns until the founding of Equestria.
To me the Regal Sisters come off as about 16 in this, which kind of makes sense as it sounds like they were initially more honorary rulers/guardians while the day to day stuff was still handled by the three tribes.
Isn't Hurricane expressly indicated to be male? I had read that in a summary, but now I'm not sure. What about Puddinghead?
To me, the big take away if we accept the book is this: We've discovered the source of Luna and Celestia's immortality. Alicorns draw in energy from the sun and moon rather than lose it when unicorns move the sun and moon. We know from Tirek that absorbing energy can revitalize and rejuvenate your body (old Tirek at the beginning vs young strong Tirek at the end of his time), so to me it seems pretty clear that Celestia and Luna's special talents are what let them draw life force from the sun and moon to keep themselves going (being imprisoned on the moon apparently also counts). I suspect that means there can be only 2 immortal alicorns at a time, and they have to have the appropriate cutie mark (for example, if Luna and Celestia died Twilight and an alicorn Sunset Shimmer might be able to take over permanently, Cadance is out of luck). A lot of that at the end is speculation, and Flurry Heart contradicts some of it, so hopefully we will learn more soon.
3974417
My real beef with this particular passage is not the fact that the borders of the pegasi state may have changed – by the way, there was more than one, because FIENDship is Magic #5 mentions Timbucktu ruled by a king Orion – but the fact that Hurricane seems to no longer be head of a citystate when Puddinghead and Platinum and Amore still are. I.e. the journal contradicts itself, and it does this sort of thing fairly often.
That would need a citation. The Journal mentions “The Alicorns” in passing, and they are completely gone from the narrative horizon immediately, it is never explained why it is lost or even where it might have existed. It never even says they were a tribe. There are no other sources as far as I’m aware.
I do have my own take on this particular mystery, but spelling it out would be a spoiler for Aporia. :)
Amy Keating Rogers basically imagines them as the Mane 6 playing them. Hence Platinum and tapestries, for example. Frankly, the best explanation for the existence of the Journal is that it comes from a world where ponies are shown on TV, and someone just wasn’t attentive enough when writing it. :)
Unless there are more portable celestial bodies floating around, which is not an impossibility.
3974465
That is weird. Maybe the fact that Pegasi city states are inevitably different from other pony settlements, since they are portable, plays into it. Wherever old Unicornia and Earth Pony land or whatever used to be, at this point they still exist as viable nations, and at least Puddinghead is the elected leader of them (if King Bullion is the ruler of the unicorns, doesn't that mean Platinum is not the head of state)? It is a tangled web indeed. Wasn't Starswirl made the ruler of everyone though?
Sure, but the wiki says Hurricane was listed as a stallion in the book, and the only way to settle that myself is to try and read it, which we both know I won't do.
Ok, so there were a group of alicorns, but they are completely forgotten. I would guess there are a few, because if it were only Celestia and Luna's parents they would have been referred to as "our parents." But that's all we get, and the season 6 finale implies alicorns have never been born before, so it's all a tangle.
Wasn't there an episode with stargazing that implied there are other planets in the solar system (solar system might be a misnomer for a geo-centric deal, but whatever).
3974761
He was the one who approached the sisters, but he wasn't the ruler of anything, just a representative. As a side note, the sisters were not rulers of anything either, the journal repeats this multiple times.
The name for this sort of organization is a protectorate, where state A takes over the entire foreign policy of state B, but does more or less nothing else. The Sisters essentially act as a sovereign state, and that is precisely why they build a castle on neutral unsettled ground for their HQ. It's interesting that after the Crystal Empire emerged, the relationship between it and the Sisters remained as it was, even while the relationship with all other constituents of Equestria changed radically in a thousand years. :)
Well, I don't remember myself (and be glad it's not written in Japanese, then we wouldn't know the genders even after reading it) but for the purposes of my particular theory it is more or less irrelevant. :)
That's what it seems to say, yes. A group large enough to produce books which are completely unfamiliar to Starswirl. Taken together with The Crystaling, the obvious way to settle this is to assume the Sisters are not native to the planet and/or the entire world -- they could be born as alicorns, just not here. They did spend their early years in Equestria, though, which would imply something like spaceship wreck survivors, or another oddity.
But that would imply the Tree of Harmony isn't native either, because Celestia read about it in books before ponies showed up. :)
I wrote extensively about that, as well as about what the rest of their solar system has to look like.
Looks like it's time to make a blog index. :)
3974191
Suddenly, idea strikes.
3974856
That's brilliant!
3974884
Eh, you'd make a better story out of it than I would. Take it. :)
3974829 That's right, you covered a lot of this earlier on the early history. The Princesses were vague overlords that mostly just fought off monsters, until the early rulers of the three tribes died off, Celestia had an army, and did some kind of consolidation. (Was there a purge? Who knows.)
But yes, you need a blog index because my memory is terrible, and I promise you I will quote you to yourself accidentally many times in the future without realizing it, just remembering some other really smart blog post. I once told another fan about a great story I had read a while back, and he agreed it was great, since he wrote it.
Alicorns come from another dimension though..... that's huge. Flurry Heart means it may not be absolutely required, if there were a bunch of incredibly heroic ponies who all ascended to alicorn status at once, I suppose they could breed true alicorns, who could breed Celestia and Luna, and then somehow they died off. But given the sheer number of different dimensions that connect to Equestria if you count the comics, a bunch of alicorns wandering in from a different dimension does sound more likely. Maybe in their home dimension, the level of background magic is higher, and all ponies are alicorns there. Do you understand, however, that your theory basically makes Luna and Celestia the protagonists from Escape to Witch Mountain?
Was Commander Hurricane ever explicitly stated to be a civilian leader as well as an appointed midranking military leader? A Commander-Ambassador doesn't sound too far fetched for a military junta or militant republic.
Alternately, Pegasopolis was extinguished to a pony by the Windigoes, and Commander Hurricane was leading a ranging expeditionary force at the time. The deaths of civilian leadership and everypony above him in rank puts him in charge. The Gryphon king considers the prior nation gone, even if Commander Hurricane claims an unbroken continuation from Pegasopolis.
3975520
A far cry from creator deities... or is it? :)
3975795
Hearth's Warming Eve kind of does position Hurricane as the civilian leader. But generally, we know squat about details like these, and the journal isn't particularly helpful even if it is completely truthful -- which it probably isn't.
3975520
Well, you can see a blog index on my profile page now. :)
The show's cannon has holes big enough to drive a blimp through. And every official source outside of the show is worse, sometimes extremely so. I can't even get myself to read more than a few bits of that numbered summary, it's so terrible.
As for it's presence in the story, well, I think you're kinda obligated to give some sample of the journal's eccentricity to your readers. Just as you can't expect many of your readers to have read the journal from outside the story themselves, many readers present and future will also not find and read this bogpost explaining it.
3976257
I did put a link to the post in the author's notes, but I doubt embedding the whole thing into the story itself would be proper...
I'll see what I can do. :)
3976270
You only need a small sample. I think that's more than enough.
3975921 If we go off the 2009 remake, that would make Starswirl the Bearded Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson. And thanks for the blog index, I promise to make 20% less of a fool of myself in future comments! .....well, 10% less.
I'm still going with that the journal was actually written by a child, it would explain the inconsistencies and the rather OOC writing styles of Celly and Lulu. I feel like they gave a certain someone a "stenographer" position to make them feel like they are worthy of the the title they were given/born into. Granted, this whole thing could be far more meta than it already is and I'm not "expanding my horizens" enough. I can't wait until you drop this bombshell of a mystery.
3975520 Tony and Tia... Luna and (Celestia)Tia... I believe it. Alicorns are now aliens, from the planet Kryptrot.
3976530 That's a ridiculous analogy sir, it would only make sense if one of them drew her power from the sun!
.....oh.
3976604
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/55/ce/cb/55cecb01d326b15ffc38aae8d86ece72.jpg
This sounds like…a doozy!
:twilightflame: