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Oliver


Let R = { x | x ∉ x }, then R ∈ R ⟺ R ∉ R... or is it?

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Apr
23rd
2016

RTAC #10: Best Princess · 11:02pm Apr 23rd, 2016

I’m not sure why exactly, but the words “best princess” are much more often applied to Luna than Celestia, so I’ll go with that. This is not a statement of preference for either princess, but another long-winded research post, and Luna is just the subject of said research.

And the question I am aiming to answer today is:

Why, exactly, was Luna, apparently, forgotten entirely, and Nightmare Moon was an “old ponies’ tale?”

For that matter, just what exactly caused her rebellion, and what was it like? There is considerable confusion on the subject, in a large part because Luna stays conveniently off screen for most of the show, and even in secondary canon she only appears occasionally. The matter is far from inconsequential, not only because of defining an important character, but also because it leads to no end of implications.

In previous posts, I’ve already described how the best conclusion we can make from taking Testing Testing 1-2-3 and Journal of the Two Sisters together is assuming, that prior to Luna’s rebellion, Equestria was not a country, but a complicated multinational mess, united under the protection, but not actual rulership, of the Two Sisters. Yet, immediately after Nightmare Moon, it starts centralizing, acquires a united army, and eventually transitions to a nation we see today.

So what the hay really happened?

Source statements

As usual, primary canon, i.e. show episodes are bold, while secondary canon, like comics and other printed media are in italic. In no particular order…

Friendship is Magic:

Once upon a time, in the magical land of Equestria, there were two regal sisters who ruled together and created harmony for all the land. To do this, the eldest used her unicorn powers to raise the sun at dawn; the younger brought out the moon to begin the night. Thus, the two sisters maintained balance for their kingdom and their subjects, all the different types of ponies.

But as time went on, the younger sister became resentful. The ponies relished and played in the day her elder sister brought forth, but shunned and slept through her beautiful night. One fateful day, the younger unicorn refused to lower the moon to make way for the dawn. The elder sister tried to reason with her, but the bitterness in the young one’s heart had transformed her into a wicked mare of darkness: Nightmare Moon. She vowed that she would shroud the land in eternal night.

Reluctantly, the elder sister harnessed the most powerful magic known to ponydom: the Elements of Harmony. Using the magic of the Elements of Harmony, she defeated her younger sister, and banished her permanently in the moon. The elder sister took on responsibility for both sun and moon and harmony has been maintained in Equestria for generations since.

The show starts us off with a narration, and while it implies that this is, basically, the content of the book Twilight is reading, because she finishes this statement, it’s unlikely to be exactly what we heard: Twilight never makes the connection between the elder sister and Celestia, for one, which would be a damning incident of intellectual blindness. Come on, “responsibility for both sun and moon.” Later on, she corroborates the myth with a different source, which, notably, never mentions rulership as something that actually existed:

1. This throwaway line which is later illustrated with four mysterious shiny objects colliding with the moon is never, ever referred to since, and yet spawned a large amount of fanon speculation.

“The Mare in the Moon, myth from olden pony times. A powerful pony who wanted to rule Equestria, defeated by the Elements of Harmony and imprisoned in the moon. Legend has it that on the longest day of the thousandth year, the stars will aid in her escape,1 and she will bring about nighttime eternal!”

At the end of the episode, everyone is surprised that Celestia has a sister at all. One other statement by Celestia is notable: “Time to put our differences behind us.” Which pretty clearly implies actual differences did exist.

Testing Testing 1-2-3:

Twilight starts her historical lecture with “Prior to the great Celestia/Luna rift, there was no need for the Earth, Unicorn, Pegasi, or E.U.P., Guard. But after Luna’s banishment, the Protective Pony Platoons were formed.” This, however, happens long after Twilight becomes a princess herself, so the history would have been set straight by this point.

Princess Twilight Sparkle:

While this is Zecora’s potion of plot-relevant flashback, and thus at least slightly suspect, during the actual conflict, Luna says, as she creates an eclipse, “There can only be one princess in Equestria! And that princess will be me!” Notably, she transforms into Nightmare Moon immediately afterwards, so it is not entirely settled just what sort of entity Nightmare Moon is even with that – we never get told whether this is Luna being corrupted by outside influence, Luna having a magi-psychotic episode, or unwilling possession. Or any particular combination of the three. All of these three options have been observed in fanon, and all of them have good examples.

The distinction would be very important for our question, but the show won’t let us make it with just that. What we can conclude from this episode, however, is that the “eternal night” created by Nightmare Moon in this instance has only lasted as long as it took Celestia to win, which, unless the flashback involves copious skipping, only took minutes. Whether any witnesses were present or not is unclear, because none are shown, but if there weren’t any, it is a bit unclear how Nightmare Moon could have become a legend at all.

Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep:

Luna’s dream, that starts this episode, involves Luna turning into Nightmare Moon, again, seemingly with no provocation whatsoever. But when the Rainbow Power actually hits Luna and cures her, the imagery involved makes me inclined to rule out a simple magi-psychotic episode – you don’t get cleansed from psychosis, it implies either corruption or possession. Luna’s later statement that she created the Tantabus to punish herself for the evil caused by Nightmare Moon strongly rules out unwilling possession – which makes corruption by a foreign entity the most likely case. I.e. Luna gave in to one or another form of temptation, which permitted her to actually be possessed, and that is what she punishes herself for. Notice, however, the suspicious absence of actual evil caused by Nightmare Moon beyond hurting Celestia, as shown by episodes previously cited.

Luna Eclipsed:

It is not clear whether Nightmare Night is a nationwide festival or not, because neither in this episode nor in Scare Master we see any locations other than Ponyville. Judging by the fact that both Twilight and Spike make no comments that the experience is new to them, however, it’s probably celebrated at least in Canterlot as well. There is reason to believe it might be confined to Canterlot area, which likely corresponds with ancient Unicornia, because when Twilight asks Pipsqueak about Nighmare Night, he says it’s his first ever, and not just since he moved from Trottingham. Being in the same class as the Cutie Mark Crusaders, he has to have experienced the festivities previously if Trottingham had the festival at all. That said, Trottingham is pretty far away…

It is also notable that the task of retelling the legend of Nightmare Moon to children is delegated to Zecora, who isn’t merely not local, but a complete foreigner, as far as we know. She fits the role to a T, which demonstrates tremendous shamanic skill, since there is no indication whatsoever that Zecora’s native land, wherever that is, ever had the legend. :) The actual myth is in itself interesting as well – I don’t think that trick-or-treating ever involved bribing a mythical monster with candy.

Luna also says “It was thou who unleashed the powers of harmony upon us and took away our dark powers!” Which, in my eyes, further supports the corruption theory.

Castle Mane-ia:

Applejack states: “When I was just a filly, Granny Smith told me of an ancient legend. When Nightmare Moon was banished, not every last bit of her dark magic went with her. Granny used to say, when night falls on the castle, that magic takes the form of… the Pony of Shadows!” We know Applejack as an epitome of honesty, at least as far as literal statements are concerned, so we probably can be sure she didn’t invent the legend on the spot. Which further corroborates that Nightmare Moon is a subject of Ponyville legends, and this one is explicitly local, since it refers to the castle itself.

Friendship is Magic #5-8 (Nightmare Rarity arc):

This entire arc basically describes the corruption theory by subjecting Rarity to the same corruption. In particular, Luna says: “When I was trapped as Nightmare Moon, I thought I could show everypony how special I was by making them fear me. The nightmare forces somehow knew exactly what to say to convince me… to give me their energy and hate.” She further laments her weakness and almost half her lines are devoted to mulling on the subject.

Friendship is Magic #17-20 (Reflections arc):

In a flashback, Celestia complains of Luna being distant, and Star Swirl says, “Now, Celestia, I know you’ve been concerned since your sister started act a bit… dark. I’m sure we’ll get her turned around before anything serious happens.” This at least gives us that the process was not in any way immediate – this flashback occurs early in their Stargate Mirror Program adventure, and they had time to explore at least four distinct worlds before Nightmare Moon happened.

Journal of the Two Sisters:

Ah, the bastard gem of the collection, as usual… It contains a large amount of relevant statements:

  • 2. Which is a crying shame if you ask me, because the magical fallout explanation for it is way cooler.

    Everfree forest is explicitly “ever free” and has been like that since forever.2

  • Canterlot city likewise predates the coronation of the Sisters.
  • There are no journal entries describing the sisters interacting with regular ponies in any kind of detail, other than those involved in the construction of their castle – those get used as a damsel herd in distress. There is an entry describing Luna discovering zebras in a village somewhere “beyond Everfree,” and numerous entries describing the interaction with named characters – in particular, princess Platinum, who is the only pony Luna actually calls a friend, though the character interacting most often with both sisters is Star Swirl.
  • Celestia and Luna did tour the lands they signed up to protect, but they did not detail how they were received, or whether anyone but the local dignitaries even saw them. They were just “showing princessly faces”
  • Luna spends more time in the company of a manticore than with ponies, even. She also spends a lot more time exploring Everfree than Celestia. When given a chance to meet with visiting tribe leaders, she instead chooses to hide and prank them with her castle traps, and never actually shows herself.
  • The named characters of Hearth’s Warming Eve visit the castle of the sisters multiple times, as does, apparently, Star Swirl, though the location of interactions with him is rarely detailed. Nobody else does, and even the conflict with griffons starts when flying somewhere else entirely.

In general, Luna comes off as considerably less social than Celestia, and more importantly, the journal makes me doubt the populace at large was even aware that they were now under alicorn protection until something came to eat them. The coronation of the sisters was likewise confined to one location, no matter how many attendees from every corner of Equestria it had, and since then, Luna made as little attempts to make herself known as she possibly could.

Theory

Here’s my best interpretation of what we actually got so far:

  • The coronation of the Two Sisters as princesses of Equestria was an event widely publicized, but hardly particularly well remembered by populace at large. The generation of pony rulers of the era remembered Luna, and most saw her at least once, but it’s quite likely she never even set hoof in any of the numerous kingdoms which were party to the agreement when not trailing her sister on one crisis-management mission or another. She deliberately avoided attention. The only moderately close tie she even had that was a pony is Princess Platinum, who was essentially the closest neighbor.
  • While the flag of the Sisters explicitly details two sisters, most ponies weren’t even aware what it means, and never identified Celestia with the white alicorn depicted on it. Most of their corpus of lore and recorded history starts with Celestia’s unified Equestria after it was established, which happened after Luna getting banished. In essence, two separate images of Celestia exist, disconnected, each with their own set of legends to go with them, one of which is the Nightmare – the demigod-alicorn of pre-Equestria era, and the Eternal-George-Washington of the post-Nightmare era.
  • 3. Notice that there’s no mention of a Night Court anywhere in canon, and even the mentions of Celestia holding court are quite rare. Primary canon doesn’t even use the word. Fanon uses both of these all the time, though…
    4. Thestrals and their peculiar nebulous almost-but-not-quite existence are a separate problem entirely…

    Luna has never, ever held court,3 and probably, never even had her own guard.4 There was no large settlement surrounding the Castle of the Two Sisters, and no petitioners, they lived in the middle of a dangerous forest, and the castle was never a seat of actual government. Due to their position they weren’t even entitled to reply to petitions other than 911 calls.

  • Nightmare Night, legends of the Nightmare Moon, and other related lore are confined primarily to central Equestria, spreading only as far as the ponies spread out of Unicornia. They never reached the island Trottinham is located on, and are not a national thing, which contributed to the prophecy of the Nightmare’s return being ignored.
  • “Nightmare” is a corruptive, incorporeal entity, which possesses a pony through temptation, i.e. by offering help in achieving something they desire, which they know is wrong to want. It is not entirely clear what it tempted Luna with, but it is likely neither adoration nor power, unless something radical happened to make Luna desire either, because previously she avoided both.
  • Whatever happened to cause Luna to give in to that temptation is intimately connected to Celestia’s reason to start unifying Equestria immediately after Luna’s banishment.

And that’s when we veer off into the territory of complete blank, here there be dragons – there is not enough information to conclude just what the pivotal event was! Multiple interesting possibilities that can be in some way substantiated exist:

  1. Celestia and Luna actually had an argument over the centralization of Equestria itself, and Luna was against changing the status quo, happy in her little toy castle. Luna needed some argument against Celestia’s plan, and the Nightmare provided it. Once Luna rebelled, Celestia left the home of their youth, and went ahead with her plan. Upon her return, Luna was actually more ashamed of giving in to temptation to hurt her sister than she was upset by Celestia going against her will, and, well, she can’t argue with results.
  2. Same as 1, but roles are reversed: Luna was arguing for centralization, and Celestia was arguing against it. The Nightmare tempted Luna into the role of a despot, and Celestia banished her, then went ahead with centralization to ensure it at least gets done right. Upon her return, Luna had nothing to complain about except her own behavior.
  3. 5. If it’s one of those we know, it has to be either Tirek or Sombra, but we are not certain on which one came later.

    A separate event triggered Luna’s corruption, for example, the influence of one foe or another5 made her weaker and more generally susceptible to temptation. Upon banishing Luna, Celestia reasoned that the best way to prevent this from happening ever again is centralizing Equestria into a unified nation.

  4. For a more romantic variation, of 3, the event that caused Luna to shut in and start feeling powerless and useless, which gives ample room for temptation, was Platinum’s death of ripe old age. The same event actually allowed Celestia to take over Unicornia through one legal trick or another, and kickstarted the centralization process.

Which one do you think is more plausible? Which one do you think makes a better story?

Report Oliver · 1,282 views · #canon research
Comments ( 26 )

This blog is incredibly good timing since I am just now beginning my research into Nightmare Moon's nature. Thanks! :twilightsmile:

Which one do you think is more plausible? Which one do you think makes a better story?

Okay, after reading your blog, you definitely helped me out of a tight spot because I'm making the argument for voluntary subjugation and corruption due to external influence.

I definitely have the makings of a better story with this model. I'm going with Luna having been infected by the dark magic which Sombra held. I extend this by having Sombra himself corrupted by it some years earlier when he was a humble crystal merchant and made a discovery which set him on a new path.

The way I'm plotting it out, both Luna and Celestia have "virtues" which keep their moral center aligned with the Principles of Friendship. In this sense, I'm equating a virtue with what the mane-six have that links them to the Elements. Rarity's virtue is Generosity, for instance. It defines her moral center. In regards to Luna, she became separated from her virtue when she was infected by the dark magic in the battle with Sombra. The dark magic was created by an extremely powerful character, some millennia ago, and programmed with the task of destroying ponykind.

There's a lot of details I won't get into here, but essentially Luna had a growing discomfort with her chosen role as secondary ruler and Master of the Night, given the apparent fact that few appreciated it. Personally, I find this a very weak reason to form such a powerful envy. So I'm going with this being just a twinge of resentment which Luna managed with perfect effectiveness until her corruption.

The corruption magnified the discomfort into full-blown envy and tormented Luna with feelings of entitlement and unfairness. She momentarily forgot that she had chosen this role of her own volition thousands of years prior. Luna's role was never to rule, but to judge and to protect. But the corruption tempted her to feel envious, and it eventually offered the option to usurp the throne for herself. After several bad arguments with her sister, mostly involving Celestia asking why suddenly Luna was even interested in the seat of rulership, Luna finally submitted to the incorporeal person who was living inside her. The two merged and became Nightmare Moon.

This preserves Luna's guilt for the transformation because it was she alone who submitted despite the initial corruption and its temptation. Submitting to external temptation does not absolve one's guilt. We are all tempted, but we are supposed to keep it in check and not act on it.

As for how much damage Nightmare Moon did during the First Nightmare Incident... I'm not sure what to say about that. On one hand, the canon flashback clearly depicts NMM being defeated moments after she transformed. Celestia acted very quickly because she understood what was at risk. So the monumental guilt which Luna felt after her restoration must have been due to her abandoning her identity and her moral center to submit to Nightmare Moon in the first place. It doesn't, however, explain this line:

To make sure I never forgave myself for how much Equestria suffered because of me! But it seems I have not learned my lesson, for now I have only made you suffer more!

Suffer?!! :rainbowhuh: I don't see much potential for this making any sense at all if we are to take the battle with Celestia as depicted. I don't see any room for cuts in that fight. It appears to be a continuous event lasting only minutes.

Interestingly, Lullaby for a Princess offers more opportunity for Nightmare Moon's reign. We see Luna's corruption and her voluntary submitting to the incorporeal person within her, and finally her transformation moments later. But then, the video cuts to the battle with Celestia. There's no firm indication of time between Luna's transformation and the battle. It could have been months, during which time Equestria would most certainly have suffered greatly.

3892351

As for how much damage Nightmare Moon did during the First Nightmare Incident... I'm not sure what to say about that. On one hand, the canon flashback clearly depicts NMM being defeated moments after she transformed. Celestia acted very quickly because she understood what was at risk. So the monumental guilt which Luna felt after her restoration must have been due to her abandoning her identity and her moral center to submit to Nightmare Moon in the first place.

It could have been for abandoning Celestia to deal with all this mess alone. :) But yes, that's where canon leaves the biggest actual holes, with no clues at all on what's inside.

Interestingly, Lullaby for a Princess offers more opportunity for Nightmare Moon's reign.

I think Lullaby for a Princess was explicitly written with the assumption that Nightmare Moon did get to reign, because for the longest time, this was a prevalent theory and it accumulated a lot of good fanon around it. It is also based around the idea of interpreting the series opening narration as an in-universe text, and ascribes Luna a motivation of jealousy -- which canon actually abandons pretty quickly.

I need to finish that essay on what canon is, why does it matter and for whom exactly, I suppose... :)

3892519

In my efforts to justify inserting a second person into the Nightmare Moon consciousness, my editors are fairly concerned that this somehow absolves Luna of the full guilt which she ought to have. The idea being that Luna needs to be fully responsible for her actions as Nightmare Moon and that it was her actions alone which carry that actual guilt forward to modern times.

The model which I'm trying to construct, however, does not absolve Luna's guilt. The external corruption provided the temptations and desires, but ultimately, Luna herself had to submit to it. Once she submitted, then the process was irreversible by Luna's own strength.

I think there are two moments which solidify this idea in my mind. Both of these show evidence that Luna was not herself evil when she made this incredibly unwise choice. And in both of these moments, her full transformation was imminent. At this point, Luna's decision was made. Her guilt was sure. But after this moment, it was too late -- she could not reverse the decision.

Luna submitting to the Nightmare.
members.iinet.net.au/~recon/ForumImages/0016.png

And here in the canon episode, we can actually see some pretty good evidence that... something was taking Luna over. And that she realized all too late that it was a terrible mistake.
members.iinet.net.au/~recon/ForumImages/0017.png
members.iinet.net.au/~recon/ForumImages/0018.png

3892594

The idea being that Luna needs to be fully responsible for her actions as Nightmare Moon and that it was her actions alone which carry that actual guilt forward to modern times.

I never thought that this would be particularly a problem, myself. The idea of tempting-into-corruption that results in possession and a complete takeover is bloody old in literature, and usually whatever aftermath happens doesn't absolve the tempted from guilt. The sinner is not free of sin just because they were tempted by the devil into committing it, getting possessed by the devil is in itself a sin, because it involves submitting to the devil, etc, etc.

In fact, I think the idea of someone being possessed and compelled to do things entirely without their own will being involved is relatively recent, (like, XIX century or so, even) but I'd need a lot of research to be sure.

3892595
Yeah, I think you're on the same page with that one. Naturally, when creating our own fiction, we can spice it up by adding interesting elements to the mix. But the core concept remains the same.

Doing something like this is a good way to repair the weak spots in MLP canon as well. Because honestly, the original lore is very weak. Luna, a princess who ruled the land with her sister, became "jealous" [envious] of the praise her sister was receiving and got all pouty when ponies slept through her night (because duh). And on top of that, Luna is who knows how old. It would be remiss to assume they were young when Luna was banished. Their age in millennia could be any number from zero to even ten prior to Luna's banishment.

And then what happens?? Luna physically transforms into a "wicked mare of darkness" with all the malice to match her new evil looking visage. Really? That is a stupidly profound transformation to result from something so petty as pride and envy. What is she, Lucifer? And by what actual mechanism did this transformation take place? In what metaphysics model can someone's negative emotions manifest themselves in such a way?

I dunno, I just can't go with that. It's too "kiddie show" logic for me. I'd much rather create a more complex yet more plausible explanation for what happened.

3892613

Their age in millennia could be any number from zero to even ten prior to Luna's banishment.

As I previously posted, canon appears to converge on ~200-300, actually. Appears is the key word because it disagrees with itself left and right. :)

In what metaphysics model can someone's negative emotions manifest themselves in such a way?

Apparently, in Lauren Faust's original vision, that's exactly the sort of thing that would happen. Somewhere midway through Season 2, together with Lauren Faust leaving the team completely, the metaphysics rapidly switches gears, and the Sisters get stripped of their divinity altogether. Together with them, Discord gets downgraded, and if any "series bible" existed by this point, that's when it gets thrown out of the window, instead of just being edited to fit the new vision. Past that point, the task of actually filling in the holes is delegated to the comics, which are later on trampled accidentally.

Paradoxically, it did not result in the complete meltdown of the show, and some things actually became better, but I suspect it's more of an accident.

3892626
Mmm... That makes sense. So basically, cartoon politics.

I'm ambivalent on Faust's vision. After all, she's a children's show writer, and it shows. Her concepts aren't really all that deep. Or rather, they are deep for a children's show. The "divinity" of alicorns is a much more interesting model than what we've received in the recent seasons. Time and time again, we see alicorns as having only vaguely more powerful magic than unicorns. But honestly, I don't put much stock in show canon anymore in terms of solid storytelling. That's the realm of fanfiction where writers don't have their hands tied by contracts and shareholders. Our hands are only tied by intellectual property laws. :fluttershysad: Man, you just can't win.

The parts of the show which are "better" are the parts which focus on character development. It's wonderful to have the canon characters get more fleshed out as time passes. There are also new locales and a variety of new lifestyle activities the ponies engage in which make the show interesting. But I do think the fantasy element suffers when we get things like Twilight kicking absolute ass in one season and then... Then this. :facehoof:
members.iinet.net.au/~recon/ForumImages/0019.png

3892636

But I do think the fantasy element suffers when we get things like Twilight kicking absolute ass in one season and then... Then this.

I kind of interpreted this face as "oh sweet Celestia, how do I avoid becoming a mass murderer" instead... :)

3892637
My reading was more like "Oh crap, how do we get out of this without blatantly interfering in the selection process of the next Dragon Lord, totally ruining what chances Spike and Ember (who seems pretty reasonable as dragons go) have of winning, and antagonizing the current rather scary Dragon Lord along the way?"

Also, something that I think has been established pretty clearly is that Twilight, for all of her magical prowess, just isn't that good at fighting; just see how she fared against the less powerful Starlight in both of her bouts. (Headcanon time: Sunset Shimmer does know how to fight, both physically and spell-dueling. Do not get into a fight with her unless you're seriously fireproof.)

I think you've got the underlying political process of ancient Equestria nailed down. It seems like pre-Nightmare, Celestia and Luna were close to where Twilight is now, living in a castle and protecting Equestria from threats, but not doing a lot of day-to-day governance. Afterwards, Celestia took the oportunity to centralize the government and military under her after the 3 Tribes members who had founded Equestria died out and left a power vacuum.

That said, I really have to disagree with you on the whole question of "what caused Nightmare Moon."

While this is Zecora’s potion of plot-relevant flashback, and thus at least slightly suspect,

A flashback is the least suspect account of events, it's the equivalent of a primary source when every other version we have is a secondary source. The visions the potion gave were proven correct in other areas like the plundervines and the tree, I would argue that these flashbacks are much more reliable than any other account we have.

Notably, she transforms into Nightmare Moon immediately afterwards, so it is not entirely settled just what sort of entity Nightmare Moon is even with that – we never get told whether this is Luna being corrupted by outside influence, Luna having a magi-psychotic episode, or unwilling possession.

Is it really that ambiguous? Even before Luna has transformed, she is already talking like Nightmare Moon, while showing zero signs of corruption/possession. We see her own magic move the moon over the sun, and then continue to pour forth before a circle of black surrounds her, basically an evil sailor moon transformation. At no point does any thing seem to come from outside into her, it all comes right from her own magic. I would argue this is pretty undeniable evidence of magi-psychotic episode, rather than an outside entity.

Luna also says “It was thou who unleashed the powers of harmony upon us and took away our dark powers!”

To me that supports magi-psychotic episode. Not "cleansed me of the nightmare/outside entity," but "our dark powers," like Luna's anger was amped up in her transformation and after she got magically lobotomized/hit with the Elements of Harmony, she was calm again.

One thing to remember about MLP is that mind-effecting magic is frighteningly common and even blase to ponies, and while not seen as a good thing, is not seen nearly as disturbing to them as it is to us. So the idea that Luna's mind was basically brainwashed by the Elements of Harmony sounds awful, but really no more than an accelerated version of sticking an IV bag of lithium into her.

Anyway, awesome analysis of ancient times!

3893240

That said, I really have to disagree with you on the whole question of "what caused Nightmare Moon."

Based only on the primary canon evidence, your interpretation and mine cannot really be decided between, as it's mostly a matter of how we see the relevant sequences. If you include the Nightmare Rarity arc, it leans heavily towards mine: before she becomes Nightmare Rarity, Rarity herself is perfectly normal, but many pages are devoted to how the Nightmare forces tempt her.

So it's mostly a matter of which sources you treat as authoritative.

One thing to remember about MLP is that mind-effecting magic is frighteningly common and even blase to ponies, and while not seen as a good thing, is not seen nearly as disturbing to them as it is to us.

Well, that is true, indeed. Their views on the notion of mental illness itself are rather nebulous, though.

3893259 I agree about Nightmare Rarity, I just assumed it was Jossed.

I thought of the effects of the EoH on Luna were similar to a heal spell.

I'm growing to like the idea of ancient Equestria being something like a Holy Roman Equine Empire, a hodgepodge of semi-independent domains and nations, with broadly common culture and shared rulers, but not an unified nation nor a state.

On the exact nature of Nightmare Moon, my take is that she's something like a more subtle and more complex Tantabus: a mental construct created by Luna for some task (maybe handling the dream protector duties while the majority of Luna's attention was on things of the waking world?) who grew in importance and power as Luna's relationship with her sister and her subjects worsened over the years. Eventually, she started using the persona of Nightmare Moon to act out against Celestia, and all those complacent ungrateful ponies. And, inevitably, some of the ponies she encountered in this role became her followers and supporters: misfits and bitter dreamers who romanticized the dark rebellious nature of the Nightmare; unscrupulous ponies who were drawn to the promises of power in a new Equestria she would create; and those who were simply too awed and terrified by her to resist or disobey.

On the flashback specifically: I imagine it's the last time Luna takes the form and role of the Nightmare Moon, not the first; the culmination of her rebellion, and not the start of it. It's the point where she openly defies Celestia, and where the Nightmare Moon, grown stronger and stronger, takes over: the mask becomes the mare, so to speak.

On any specific triggers she might have face, I liked the idea that Sombra got his start as Luna's personal student. However, he was more ambitious and ruthless than Twilight, and Luna, already in her own slide into darkness, was not as good a teacher as Celestia. They eventually quarreled when Sombra accused Luna of trying to hold him back when she refused to teach him Dark magic, and he struck out on his own. The ultimate results of that, we know. I think putting him down was the last time Luna cooperated with Celestia before she became the Nightmare.

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with broadly common culture and shared rulers, but not an unified nation nor a state.

It we accept the view on the events of Hearth’s Warming Eve that is seemingly prevalent among ponies, which is that these events are historical, if not rendered exactly, ponies colonized Equestria after a collapse of their previously existing, unified feudal state, under the onslaught of an ice age – more likely than not, originally caused by unicorn problems. So their culture did not have that much time to diverge before they showed up, and most of the differences they do have arose in just a few generations, already under the Sisters’ protection.

As a side note, Journal of the Two Sisters details that raising the sun and lowering the moon is a difficult ritual that requires an experienced mage of Starswirl’s caliber to guide and consumes the entire magical reserves of five adult unicorns every day, causing permanent disability. Obviously, this is not sustainable unless they breed like rabbits, which would make unicorns anything but elite. It follows that at an earlier point in history, someone else was doing it, and ponies only stumbled into the role of caretakers of the world without being entirely suitable. But for the social order described in HWE to emerge, they had to have been doing this for a long time.

Which makes me suspect there has to be yet another superpowerful magical artifact floating around that they either destroyed or lost, causing the collapse and eventual exodus, without which, they simply did not have sufficient control of the sun to guide it correctly and maintain optimal temperatures…

On the flashback specifically: I imagine it’s the last time Luna takes the form and role of the Nightmare Moon, not the first; the culmination of her rebellion, and not the start of it.

Now that is an opportunity I did not consider. We don’t have anything to substantiate it, but it certainly makes sense and offers a lot of wiggle room, enough to explain the “evil caused by Nightmare Moon”.

I still think that even with that, Nightmare Moon’s activities would be mostly localized to central Equestria, though. :)

On any specific triggers she might have face, I liked the idea that Sombra got his start as Luna’s personal student.

That one would be sweet, but won’t fit into my grand unified canon theory, if only because it details Sombra’s origins as per FIENDship is Magic #1… :)

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The level of power drain involved in steering the sun and the moon seems pretty extreme to me, too. An implied magical artifact (like the Heavenstone in Flight of the Alicorn) would make a lot of sense there.

And yeah, my ideas for Sombra's origins have been pretty thoroughly jossed by the comics. Too bad, since I liked that idea! On the other hand, those are some pretty good comics... :yay:

If you want my take, for story purposes, I don't frame Equestria's unification as being entirely post-Nightmare. The military unification was post-Nightmare, specifically because Luna was the warrior princess who led in times of strife, and when she rebelled, half the military rebelled with her, so a total reform was crucial. Following the model that another commenter mentioned, Luna's tranformation depicted in the flashback was merely the culmination of her rebellion, not its inception, and was preceded by months, if not years of civil war.

The transition of Equestria from an overseeing body into a unified kingdom in its own right, however, I like to picture as being a post-Discord event. Some nations kept their old status, because they were protected by magical artefacts, as in the Crystal Empire, or because rightful heirs of their old royal lines could still be found, such as for Griffonstone. But for most, as happened with the three tribes, Discord completely obliterated any kind of government they once had, so the princesses had to take direct rule over those territories.

As for Luna's personal motivations, I'm like you, in that I accept the comics as a valid canonical source whenever possible, so I'm of the opinion that she was possessed. I believe her partnership with the Nightmare Forces was voluntary, albeit due to temptation, and that this is why Celestia couldn't purify her sister with the Elements herself. After some time spent alone with them during her banishment, she came to realise that she made a mistake, but by then the Nightmares had assumed direct control. Because Luna had become remoseful in her banishment and wanted to make things right again, the Elements succeeded in ousting the Nightmare the second time around.

Most of this is just headcanon stuff and what I use for writing fanfics, bear in mind. I won't pretend to have canonical evidence for most of this.

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Following the model that another commenter mentioned, Luna's tranformation depicted in the flashback was merely the culmination of her rebellion, not its inception, and was preceded by months, if not years of civil war.

Probably not years, at least Reflections makes me think so. But yeah, it's possible.

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I would agree that months are more likely, but I was not aware that there was a line in Reflections that indicated as such. Point me to it, pretty please?

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These two frames, mostly, make me think the whole thing was pretty abrupt, even though it has been cooking for a while:

s32.postimg.org/8y0j0ub3p/reflections.png

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Hmm. It looks like it started abruptly, I agree, but that's not really an indication of how long any open warfare went on for.

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Luna physically transforms into a "wicked mare of darkness" with all the malice to match her new evil looking visage. Really? That is a stupidly profound transformation to result from something so petty as pride and envy.

Being stripped of, or betraying, your prime characteristic results in desaturation. Life vibrancy connects to color vibrancy.

What is she, Lucifer?

and if we go back to early views of Celestia-as-God-substitute ["with Celestia as my witness"], then, in turning into something anathema to Celestia's light, she literally becomes colored from which Celestia's light may not escape. Sombra lost sight of his ideal and became gray, but also uses dark magic, with the eye-leaking aspects that entails, and the shadow-aspect of darkness as well.

The eye-leaking dark-magic thing could be very deep, if taken with the proverb "the eyes are the window to the soul". This is somewhat supported when the eyes show all those mind-altering magics…

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Twilight is a good weapon. She is not a good fighter. She needs a Pinkie Pie to operate her at full capacity. :gatlingTwi:

I wish we had more of the Twilight seen at the end of Boast Busters, who utilized one very-high-power spell and five or ten other spell effects in concert to solve a problem.

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I'm having a real hard time understanding your point. Oh well.

My point was simply that there's no practical reason she'd transform like that just from being resentful. There are much better ways of handling the whole thing. Ways that could actually be plausible.

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I forgot the most obvious anima-visual-bit in canon: Cutie Marks.
Souls manifest themselves on the outside for ponies in, then, at least two obvious ways: the cutie mark, and Discording/Equalizing causing color desaturation. Note that Discording, at least, apparently can happen caused from within or forced from without.

I guess I'm just "Feeling Pinkie Keen" and pointing out that data exist without explaining how they do. But knowing the what is a good start to theorizing a how, isn't it?

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Alternatively, Nightmare Moon could have deliberately cast a transformation spell on herself to create her new appearance. After all, alicorns are capable of some pretty powerful magic (until they were neutered later in the show).

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