062 Frenemies Talk: Hearthbreakers feat. JaketheGinger and Nyronus

062 Frenemies Talk: Hearthbreakers feat. JaketheGinger and Nyronus

As a consolation for this blog being terribly late, we're binging in the undisputed expert on Pinkie Pie, JaketheGinger! Please give a warm welcome to him as well as Nyronus who was kind enough to aid us for the third time this season. I don't suppose it's much of a surprise to say we'll be talking about families, family values, family dynamics, family events, family families, and the Pie and Apple families as well for good measure.

Should I still put a warning here, a decade after the episode aired? Oh, well - spoilers to S05EP20 below!

---

I am rock. It ain't no breakin' me, it ain't no shakin' me. That ain't no earthquake, it's me. I am rock.

Prane: Since I’m not really a fan of Pinkie Pie and Applejack, my expectations for this episode were low. Wait, what are you doing with those torches and pitchforks? What? I’m not biased against Earth Ponies! You want proof? Uhm… Roseluck is hawt? Nurse Redheart, too! The Spa Sisters! See, I’m a regular guy, not your enemy!

Phew. Now that they’re gone, I can speak from my heart: I didn’t like the episode, but in a very mild way. Some episodes I don’t like because I believe they are fundamentally flawed, that they could have been executed better, that they didn’t quite send its supposed message, but others I don’t like—or rather, ‘can’t trick myself into liking’—but I have no trouble seeing why someone else would enjoy it. For me, Hearthbreakers falls into the latter category, mostly because it was one of those ticket master episodes. What’s a ticket master episode, you ask? It’s a story in which a period of conflict, or a friendship issue, is artificially prolonged because the involved parties do not talk to each other about their concerns, just like in S1’s The Ticket Master.

To be honest, the most interesting parts of the episode were, again, the worldbuilding bits about the traditional (Apple) way of celebrating of the Hearth’s Warming Eve: hanging the hoofmade dolls over the fireplace, rising the flag (I bet AJ loves to sing ‘Raise this flag, raise this flag, one-two-three-four!’), or unwrapping the presents. I understand that the lesson here was to learn to accept that someone else’s way isn’t essentially wrong even if it’s different, but putting the Apple traditions next to those rock-dimensional ones created a setting in which Applejack apologizing at the very end felt just odd. Throughout the episode, she was the most open-minded one, but in the end, she was saying sorry because she wasn’t open-minded enough.

So, what are your overall thoughts about the episode? Did the concentrated dose of family values work out for you?

JaketheGinger: Speaking as someone with an unhealthy obsession with Pinkie Pie, this episode is one I’ve been looking forward to for a looooong time. Ever since it was revealed that we’d be seeing the rest of Pinkie’s family, my hype levels have never been higher, especially after the delight that was Maud Pie. Suffice to say, I’m far from disappointed.

Initially I assumed that it’d just be Applejack along for the ride but, to my surprise, we’ve got the whole Apple bunch here! At first I was worried that this would lead to bit of crowding in the episode and that the Pie family wouldn’t get enough development; indeed, some of the first scenes did seem a bit like filler. A re-telling of the Hearthswarming legend? It looked nice but it was a bit of a pointless scene, even for kids, since its message didn’t really relate to the episode itself. It was worldbuilding we already knew but I do agree that the extra bits of information we got were nice.

Luckily, I felt the pacing of the episode was pretty okay. Well, maybe some of the emotional moments could’ve been a bit longer but at least there were there, I suppose. It never felt bumpy or weird to me though.

I don’t agree that the conflict was artificially prolonged though. The Apples were guests in a very strange family. They were probably very nervous about telling them that their traditions, well, kinda sucked. I also don’t think Applejack was prepared to tell Pinkie about that either, considering how enthusiastic the latter was about the whole thing. This could’ve been better explained, really. Honestly my biggest problem with the episode is the lengths Applejack went to seemed too extreme for her. I dunno, it just didn’t seem like her to force her way of thinking down another family’s throats, even if she had good intentions.

Nyronus: So, when I first sat down to write this I really didn’t have much to say. I felt the episode was almost flawless, in the most literal sense. Good writing, good animation, good character development, good humor. I will agree that the pacing for Applejack’s choice seemed a little weird, but besides that, it had no real mistakes, which may sound like praise, but then, a computer generated square on a perfectly white piece of paper is pretty flawless too, technically speaking.

Still, once I had some time to think and clear out of the funk I’d sunk myself into and read some of the discussions in the post, I ended up connecting to the episode some more. It was really neat seeing Pinkie and Applejack’s relationship develope. It was neat to see inter-episode continuity. I was neat getting more development on Spike and Twilight’s relationship and how that was affected by their move to Ponyville. Maud Pie was glorious, as was horny old Granny Smith. Also, as I’ll elaborate on later, I really found Pinkie’s relationship with her sisters kind of fascinating. So, yeah. Lot to love about this episode now that I’ve taken some time to think about. Another solid hit in a string of them for Season 5.

Gulheru: Myself never being an outright fan of Pinkie Pie, nor Applejack for that matter, I’ve decided to watch the episode with a complete lack of expectations. I was prepared to be entertained without being charmed and receive a lesson about the importance of whatever, whenever, Friendship, fa-la-la…

And, to be fair, I was more than surprised. I liked this episode. I liked it a lot.

Of course, it possessed obvious flaws. Applejack going over-the-top was… weird. “Artificial” might be a good word here. I view the Element of Honesty to be rather level-headed and the stunt with redecorating the entire farm to make it more festive was… bizarre. From where did she even get those ornaments? A late-night train to Las Pegasus? Preposterous.

But! But, this was actually a really cute episode for me. And not due to the main heroines! Anypony but them. All around them we’ve had examples of truly beautiful bonding. Apple Bloom’s and Maud’s scene on “being things”, Granny Smith hoping for the Pairing Stone to find her a “hunk”... And, I have to say, Big Mac and Marble Pie make for a really, really adorable, innocent couple. I’ve enjoyed my share of fics concerning them this week, indeed…

The “safe for work” of them, that is. I don’t wish to taint this pairing with hideous perversion, like you sick lot!

An egg-shaped boulder found in a dragon's nest, older than time itself? I've read enough fantasy to know that's definitely NOT just a rock!

JaketheGinger: As I mentioned above, I have an unhealthy obsession with the pink party pone. So it was really fascinating to see her home life. I’m sure a few headcanons have been broken, including my own, but overall I’m happy with what has been presented to us.

I could make an entire blog post about my thoughts on the entire Pie family so I’ll try and keep this brief!

Maud is Maud. She manages to steal every scene she’s in and I think that it is a mostly unanimous opinion that Maud is fantastic. Everything about her has probably already been said, so let’s move on.

Marble Pie. Often cited as Fluttershy 2.0, I don’t think that’s an entirely fair statement but the resemblances are certainly there. I find it very interesting that the new ship, MarbleMac, was pushed as hard as it was, especially when CheeriMac has always been a thing in the fandom. I approve of the new ship regardless, it’s adorable. Do you?

Limestone is definitely the most interesting addition to the cast. I’ve seen a lot of people think she’s a bad pony but, eh, I can see the justification behind her actions and attitude. It was really nice to see that Pinkie doesn’t get along with all her sisters the same way. As for Limestone herself, to me, she feels like a roughened up Applejack. She’s running that farm by herself, it’s her responsibility and she doesn’t like outsiders messing with it. As far as work ethic is concerned, I think there’s a parallel between them. I really want to see some interesting fics come out for her.

Last but not least, Pinkie’s parents: Igneous and Cloudy. I really enjoyed these two, honestly. Igneous more than Cloudy (but only because he got more lines). I very much approve of them not being total killjoys because really, I could never see Pinkie’s homelife being one where she was never welcome. In fact, Igneous felt kinda awkward at times as to be pretty endearing! Maybe that’s just me though…

I’ve rambled on enough, what did you think of the Pies?

Nyronus: Maud, hollowed be her name, was, of course, perfect in every way. The rest of the Pie Family formed an interesting bunch. It was also really interesting to see Pinkie be so enthused and connected with them, despite how different every single member of her family was from her. Maud is emotionally unexpressive, Limestone is angry, and Marble is socially withdrawn. All three of them act as foils to Pinkie in some way, and despite all that Pinkie still loves and connects with them, and that’s… really interesting to me.

In any other show the Pie family would be a cynically dysfunctional mess played for laughs, but here, Pinkie seems to genuinely love and connect with her sisters and parents. Fact is, I don’t have the best family life. Neither of my siblings really respect me, and the less said about my relationship with my parents the better. So, seeing Pinkie love her family, despite their differences… yeah. I guess I found that whole dynamic really interesting.

Gulheru: I’ve greatly enjoyed meeting Pinkie’s family properly. We’ve heard a lot about them and to finally learn about those incredible ponies was a blast.

I hope I didn’t leak too much sarcasm there, as I really think that Pinkie comes from an intriguing household. Let me start with Igneous and Cloudy Quartz. Upon hearing them speak, I was really, really concerned that they shall be made into religious fanatics or madponies. And, to be absolutely fair, I would have hated that. True, it is seldom that one can find people of such “spirituality” nowadays, keeping to centuries-long traditions and lifestyles, but too often are they met with senseless ridicule. We might find their piousness peculiar, or their ways outmoded, but that does not give us the right to look down on them. I was actually glad that the couple did not end as a “burn the witch” kind of folk. Their austerity was actually pretty refreshing, if you ask me.

Limestone Pie… well, she is running the farm. It must be pretty hard and time-consuming. So I guess that occasional (read: permanent) cases of angry glares or grunts are understandable. But, I think we can all agree that she is not really like that, all aggression and frowns. I admire her loyalty to the place and the stalwartness when it came to Holder’s Boulder.

Maud Pie was… Maud. We already love her, right?

And Marble Pie? Goodness me, she is absolutely adorable. There is something in the tone of her voice and the look of her eyes that makes me like her. Perhaps it is that hint of… innocence about her. Positive calmness (not the “mountain” one, like when it comes to Maud). I do not know why, but despite her not having a grand moment in the episode, I found her a compelling character.

Wow, I’ve said a lot of good and positive things… I better go scheme some vile intrigues before I turn into sunshine and rainbows...

Prane: The Pie Sisters! Just when you thought you finally figured out which of the two you like more, they’re giving you two more to include in your personal rankings! I have to admit that I have no strong feelings towards any of the four, mostly because their personalities can be captured in but a few words (that might not be the case for Pinkie Pie, but she’s several seasons of character development ahead of her siblings). What’s worse, they all feel like they were representing some troubling behavioral abnormality, not to say a clinical issue.

Pinkie Pie is way too hyperactive for my tastes. Maud’s state of apathy combined with a rather narrow specialization doesn’t make her somepony I’d like to have a coffee with. Limestone has some serious anger management issues, and although I’ve mentioned time and again that I’m all in for bad girls, this one was portrayed as a simple brute. As for Marble, who is essentially a Fluttershy who traded her wings for a case of social anxiety disorder (fun fact: did you know that the acronym for that is SAD?), well, I’m also not a fan. I was never into this ‘cute shyness’ type of characters. Sorry! It seems that I don’t really like Pies!

One more thing about Pinkie. I can’t seem to remember a single moment where she was really, like, heroic, you know what I’m saying? I remember Applejack jumping through the fire and flames to save her sister from the chimera. I remember the finale of Dragonshy and the eye of the storm in Hurricane Fluttershy. Rarity kicking the manticore, or swearing to never be sisterless again? Again, I can recall these with ease. Rainbow Dash had her share of aerial badassery, there is no doubt, and Twilight speaks for herself. That leaves Pinkie Pie for whom I can’t think of any moment she felt like the hero of the story for me, and not just a hero of some bizarre circumstances. Maybe there was something like that, but this time I’m basing only on what I can remember, and I think it presents well how much I (don’t) care about her.

Good thing there are people out there better than me at rooting for her!

"I'm not monodimensional! You've seen me annoyed back then, but now I'm angry! Huffy! Irate! Vexed! Furious!"

Nyronus: So, best just to get this out of the way; Something something something, something something, which makes sense, given Jake is a ginger, and therefore has no soul.

Also, something something something, Prane and Gulheru wearing track suits and dress shoes while squatting on the sidewalk.

There, now that that’s done, we can get down to business.

So, over the course of participating in this little round-about I have come to realize that the family aspects of this episode are what stood out to me the most. I was, in fact, expecting this episode to be about family more than anything, with AJ potentially having to cope with the fact that she’s never been in a household with proper set of parents and what that means for being a “proper” family, considering that her folks were confirmed for dead as fuck in Crusaders of the Lost Mark.

I’m not crying you’re crying, shut up.

Anyway, so, yeah, we did not get the “AJ’s Parents Are Dead” bonanza I was perversely hoping for, but family was still something of an undercurrent of the episode. In fact, while I was considering this subject, I realize that it’s a thing that crops up in the background a lot. The Apples get in on it fairly commonly, but we have Shining and Twilight, Rarity and Sweetie Belle, Scootalove, and for a less heart warming example, Diamond Tiara and her hilariously abusive and bigoted mother. I also guess it’s fitting that family would be something that shows up in this show, after all, friends are the family you choose.

So, Family. What are the most interesting aspects of the families that you’ve seen in the show so far? Did you dig the Pie Family dynamic? What other characters or family dynamics would you like to see explored more in the series?

Gulheru: I am not really keen on going through constant family business (unless you mean batpony Families, conveniently described in my stories), but if there would be one household I would not mind visiting, it would be Fluttershy’s. For some reason I am intrigued by the kind of environment she hails from. It might be simply basic “nosiness”, but that’s a reason good as any other, right?

I don’t really have more wishes. I mean, there are many opportunities when it comes to revealing pasts, presents and futures for our beloved characters. I guess I shall but wait and see what will be delivered to us.

On a side note, I am still awaiting more information on Applejack’s dead parents. Accident? Illness? Strife? “The possibilities are like… endless” to quote our other, favorite, presumed orphan.

Prane: Hondo Flanks and Cookie Crumbles! That’s Rarity’s parents, by the way, and if you want to know why I would like to see them explored more, go to Sisterhooves Social, skip to 1:22 and listen to the background music playing there. I assume it’s meant to represent the new characters we’re being introduced to, and something in it makes me think they’d be an interesting couple to talk about. Considering that Rarity’s living on her own and is maintaining her own business, and that Sweetie Belle just got her cutie mark, they must be one step away from dealing with the empty nest syndrome. Unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll be getting that anytime soon, because none of the main characters are parents themselves, and will never become ones in the show, so an episode would have to accept the side character’s perspective as the main point of view. I guess that Twilight’s parents would work too, with Shining away—wait a minute, they’re going to be grandparents! Now that would be another family dynamic I’d like to see, because Granny Smith can’t be the only old pony in the world. Show me old geezers! Show me generations of ponies!

One more word about the empty nest, because it makes you think. Were Pinkie’s parents ever sad or lonely because she left the farm, or was it more like, ‘We know you don’t fit here, you’re too saturated to live among us, so go ahead and see the world while we’ll be cracking rocks to the end of our days’? Food for thought.

JaketheGinger: I’ll keep my piece short as far as Pies are concerned; I’ve rambled about them a lot. Yet I really want more episodes exploring the dynamic between the sisters. Pinkie leaving home at such a young age would have been by no means a small deal and I think it affected each sister differently. It’s up to interpretation of course but I’d really like to see that explored in a future episode.

I’d also love to see Granny Smith in this episode. Pinkie and the Pies excepted, she was actually quite standout for me in this episode. And her knowledge of the Pie family history is a really nice little detail to her character that shows she respects family above all but also understands that different families have their traditions passed down between generations.

Pls give us a younger Granny Smith episode writers, pls pls pls.

I think it's sweet that they consider The Smooze part of the family even if he couldn't make it for their joint Hearth's Warming.

Gulheru: We’ve had a rather themed Hearth's Warming this season. Rocks. Loads of rocks. Copious amounts of them. Also rocks.

However, one has to wonder… Pinkie’s family does come from a specific setting, place and occupation. Their traditions are a reflection of that, indeed. You might find them weird, but that does not mean they are without their logic and reason. They have a meaning to them, which makes me feel a surge of respect towards even that… rather nauseatingly looking soup (reminding me of an old Polish, quasi-fantastical idea of a “nail soup”, made out of nothing).

So, considering that Equestria is a land of weirdness and peculiarity, I will have a question for you, perhaps allowing some creative thinking as well. How about you tell me what kind of other, idiosyncratic ideas you can come up with when it comes to traditions associated with Hearth’s Warming? How do you think unicorns can celebrate it? Or pegasi of Cloudsdale? Perhaps you can come up with your idea of Twilight’s special Eve?

Go forth with your ideas, friends. And don’t mind me watching.

Prane: Oh, that’s an easy one! I’ve had an idea for a special Hearth’s Warming celebration ever since we talked about events in Equestria the Made in Manehatten review. I didn’t use it back then, so now my time to shine has come!

The background is as follows: the ponies discovered a new land, befriended each other, charred some windigos with the Fire of Friendship, and united into a single nation. Yay Equestria! That’s what the Hearth’s Warming Eve Pageant and The Heart Carol are all about. But what happened next? The three leaders must have told their tribes to pack the bags and join the greatest exodus in pony history, but logic dictates that they weren’t able to take all of their stuff (it’s unclear how far it was from the old land to Equestria, but I’m assuming it was far enough that coming back for something they left was not an option). So they probably only took what was most important to them, hoping that this heavy book or that set of cutlery will help them in (re)building the nation.

Today, the ponies are commemorating their journey by holding a one of their own. First they make a small ornament, a decoration that represents those most valuable things the founders took with them. Then they go to a designated place with friends and families that is somewhere in a relatively long distance from their home town (for example, the Canterlot ponies might take a Friendship Express to a point halfway between the city and the base of the mountain). Then their own journey begins. They climb, they voluntarily choose a more difficult path, they struggle through the mounds of snow to relieve, in a way, the exodus. The goal is to reach a big tree back in the city on which they put their decorations whilst drinking hot cocoa provided by the city officials and contemplating the deeper symbolism of how community comes from variety.

Huh, that’s more inspiring than I thought. I so want to write a scene with the Princesses standing out in the cold and handing cocoa to the ponies of Canterlot. See you in two months if I won’t forget it!

JaketheGinger: I’m not really much of a worldbuilder, I prefer to think in terms of character, so no rambling from me this time!

What I found a little ironic though is that, while the Apples and Pies spent Hearth's Warming together, they were both solely earth pony families. Kinda goes against the original story, huh?

Even so, I like to imagine the actual proper day of the holiday is spent with your family. The rest of the season is most likely spent being with friends, exchanging presents, that sort of thing. Hey, perhaps the idea of snowponies came from all three types of pony working together? Pegasi to make the snow, earth ponies to roll up the snow and gather it, and unicorns to sculpt it into a masterpiece!

Additionally, the idea of Winter Wrap Up may originate from Hearth’s Warming together. After all, it’s all three pony types working together to clear off what the fire of friendship helped dwindled in the first place.

Nyronus: Hmm. Since the holiday was about the harmony between tribes I could see traditions arising out of the asymmetric relationship between the three tribes. Pegasi might have a tradition of taking snow clouds out and giving a light, whimsical snowfall on Hearthswarming night to symbolize their status as the weathermakers. Unicorns might have a tradition about candles or magic lights to symbolize their status as the magic users and the former bearers of the sun and moon. Earth pony traditions may not be too dissimilar from the Pie family traditions, involving crafts made of plant and earth. It’s possible that these traditions over time might have formed the basic traditions we saw in today’s episode; gift giving, firelight, doll making.

It’s an interesting bit of speculation you could maybe write something around.

---

Your panelists for today (drop by their profiles/stories/blogs and say hello!):
- Gulheru
- JaketheGinger
- Nyronus
- and yours truly.

I'm officially halfway through the rewrite of that one fic I mentioned. No new content from me anytime soon, I suppose, though I made some notes regarding the possible sequel to The Royal Daughter. The challenge as for now is to make it self-contained enough so that it wouldn't feel like another chapter to the original, pretending to be a different story. Alternatively, I may come up with a longer arc, a five-ish chapter long story like Dichromatic, and see if I can make Skyla's journey interesting.

See you all in a day or two once the review of Scare Master is ready!

~Prane