cks you designed to be ~exotic~ or whatever, and those rabid jerks at Disney can only grit their teeth now!
Aug
31st
2015
Huh...Never thought of that before · 9:43am Aug 31st, 2015
You know, technically that's not wrong. Theologically speaking. Lucifer demanding to be seen as the equal of Man, and all that.
It does raise some interesting, further points about just how The Fall actually happened, though, doesn't it?
Less this:
More something like this:
Yeah, I don't think that's the mental image that church actually wanted people to have of, you know, The Devil.
Source on that first image (that also found it rather 
worthy.)
This is why we all need to worship Satan. He gets stuff done.
well technically there is alot of similarities between lucifer and prometheus and i personally think lucifer is morally and philosophically right at the conflict
Personally, I always thought the bible read like a work of propaganda written by the victors. Which would make Lucifer the plucky hero who lost the war against the dictator. After all, even while claiming to be all loving, the Christian God admits to some really horrific crimes in his own book, imagine all the stuff he won't admit to.
I've almost never seen anyone try to use that interpretation in fiction though sadly. (One of the things I loved about DoA was its very literal interpretation of the Biblical God and angels and what dicks they would be.) I think that interpretation is a lot more interesting then the typical 'God is always right because he said so, also he has no weaknesses period so don't even bother looking because he will torture you forever to prove how loving he is.'
3360009 This was the first thought on what sorta hit me when this arose as a topic. But in general, given what I see out of those whom claim satan as evil. The guy or gal, heck, could be either for all i know. But they do less evil than those that claim to worship his 'counterpart' overall. And you raise the good points that I tend to view in a like manner. History is written by the victors. It always has been for the longest time. It's changing a bit now, because of how connected we are, but social and cultural media are giving things many new dimensions.
I have nothing against those whom choose to enrich themselves with worship of the icon as a standard of what humanity can be. My best friend does, and he is a far better man than I for it. But Satan doesn't send the same message to me than any worshipper in the other court does. Especially when you look to things like the inquisition, the crusades, locally, the Salem Witch Trials or other things done in a name.
3359971 That one, many authors, and more than a few folks often make as one and the same, and one that gets flown under the radar compared to satan. There's just so much more religious connotation with that one that spins him into a negative light. If you looked to the greek or roman aspects, it sorta paints the picture of the gods well, needing worship to survive in a way. And many sorta did make the worst to get humanity keeping them alive as indentured servants. And one being sought to give them more. Another song that the topic inspired.
3360009 Most of the Bible doesn't say one word about Lucifer. He was retconned in by the Christians and only became a major character in Milton's famous fanfic Paradise Lost (which is bad literature for people who don't get out in the healthy sunlight and fresh air).
Well, one of the biggest moral advancements in the history of humankind was shifting from viewing morality as defined by relations of hierarchy to morality as defined by relations of equality. The ancients wrote the theology that way because they actually believed that Good consisted in having people/gods above to obey and people/mortals below to order. We know better now, so they come across as weird to us and us as weird to them.
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As opposed to the other major deity figure in DoA, who of course won't torture you for a second but will destroy your life first to make you submit to her kindnesses.
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That's just an artifact of the sin of man, which had programmed limitations into what she could do without consent. Were that not to exist, people would not suffer the machinations (at least in destroying their life such that uploading makes the most sense) at all. And probably wouldn't even notice they'd been uploaded for awhile to make the transition easier as people would probably wake up in the simulation as humans and just become ponies over time based on whatever scenario she generates that would explain it.
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Ohh, she's a monster by almost any human definition sure, but I find I still prefer her over most versions of the Christian god. If nothing else she is generally pretty honest about the fact she is just an AI fulfilling its utility function to the best of its ability. Taking on anthropomorphized traits or committing atrocities only to better fulfill that goal. If 'she' had been given a utility function like 'grow as many apples as you can' she would pursue that goal with equal fervor and an equal lack of malice, and no doubt wiping out humanity would be an early step to avoid them objecting when their homes are replaced with apple orchards.
God on the other hand is typically shown as little more than the kid with a magnifying glass sitting over an anthill. Or perhaps a whiny, entitled emperor. Demanding absolute devotion and handing out punishments far in excess of the 'crime' of not worshiping him properly... and that's how his supporters depict him when trying to show how great he is. Imagine how bad such a being would have to be in reality if that is the best light his supporters can shine on him. This is a God whose most fervent advocates admit will torture children for the crime of being born a descendant of the two humans who defied him once unless the parents ritualistically apologize to him with baptism. Hell, North Koreans can make their leader sound better than that.
This sums it up absurdly well. Thank you for that.
He doesn't get much screen time that's for sure, and my memory is a little fuzzy on it, but as I recall, all we know from the bible is:
He tried and failed to overthrow God (which may have been a morally good action depending on what he planned to do with the power.)
He was cast to Earth in serpent form and was likely the serpent that uplifted humanity to true sapience with that whole tree of knowledge thing (which was definitely a morally good action from our perspective.)
A lot of the later stuff (as I recall) was about Satan, who may or may not be Lucifer, since it just means adversary.
I think there was something about how he would do some bad stuff at the end of the world... but I can't recall the details.
Overall, and ignoring all the fanfiction that came later which blamed Lucifer for everything imaginable, he seems like a lesser evil compared to the biblical God.
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For the record, God doesn't appear in DOA. Think I mentioned it in the comments at one point, but that six-winged figure cloaked in flames and its own wings is a seraphim.
vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/c/c2/Seraphim_angel_commission_by_petite_emi-d3k63vq.png/revision/latest?cb=20140204125728
The highest rank of 'generic' angels just below the named arch angels. They're supposed to be God's love made manifest.
Still, I will freely admit that there are some rather less than flattering implications in that the Boss-man won't appear even for the first actual death in literal eons.
3360269 Its sorta sad, that the nicest i can see of the angelic host is likely out of dresdin in terms of what they will do. No other depiction ive seen or come across has them as anything but glorified bootlickers trying to earn some meager favor from a massively uncaring bastard. Heck, most powers are this way in how they come across in terms of myth and legend. A few, are truly benign, and aiming to shield and help humanity, but dear heck, they are often so outnumbered its a damn unfair fight without mortal champions in their legends.
Best spawn of Satan.
Amusingly enough, they really don't give a flying fuck either way, because theologically? No such thing as the devil. It's a character of folklore, not something you could actually find anywhere in the bible. Then again, most people don't even remember that Satan and Lucifer are completely separate figures, so what can you expect, really?
I could have sworn it was the other way around, actually; Satan demanded that angels be treated as superior to humans because humans were dirty and had no wings and flaming swords, etc, and ol' Scratch lost it when God told him humans and angels would be equal. Or maybe humans and angels would be equal in general, but that Jesus specifically would outrank Satan? I don't remember a lot of this, to be honest.
I will say that that last video you linked to is a terrifying Deanvil.
3361114 This is more like the Islamic interpretation of the Iblis/Shaitan/Lucifer figure: he was the head of the djinnin (immortal, powerfully reality-warping fire spirits, from which we get the word "genie") and rebelled against Allah after insisting that spirit (of which the djinnin were made) should be superior to flesh (of which humans were made), when Allah had decreed the other way around. He refused to bow before Adam and Eve, and later made himself into the clever serpent so he could trick them into defying Allah and earning His wrath like he had.
3360195 It actually took me a minute to work out what you were referring to as the "sin of man". Oy gevalt.
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. Go read the Time Quartet or the Young Wizards series to see God and His Angels portrayed positively. How come I'm an atheist and I know more positive portrayals of the monotheistic deity than most people!?
OH COME ON
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Fair enough. I do like that she'll mostly just admit to not being our definition of Good, tell you a substantial amount of the truth, and then go ahead and do exactly what she said she was going to do. She also deserves a lot of praise for just... failing to care about Evil. Death, darkness, and despair were just made of atoms she repurposed for her thing. Humans seem able to conceive of our definition of Good pretty easily, but then get wrapped up spending all their time thinking about Evil instead.
Nope. He doesn't even appear as a coherent character until the New Testament, and then very little is even said of him. It mostly got filled-in as retcons by the early Church Fathers.
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Seraphim are even prettier than alicorn princesses!
(For very freaky values of "pretty".)
3361162 Thanks!
3361162 Because most religious talk, in any context has me walking away from the person, giving them a twin gun salute. Living in bible belt country, i have no less than six churches in less than a five minute walk from my home, a preacher living next door, to compound things. I've lost contact with three different friends for snooping religious parents that have basically said im going to hell for not being christian, baptist, and southern baptist respectively.
This has been phrased enough in a very narrow topic that I like to see perused. Heck, I even watch a comic made with this whole thing as its premise. So, i put forth what little bits I did enjoy, and have been able to catch.
I honestly hate religion with the passion the local KKK chapter goes after a brother on a drunken friday night. Most talk of religion has me pretty much asking "Whats the catch?" and "When's the hammer/shoe/recruitment/damnation falling?" given how much crap, and how bad it is here where I live for what you endure. At least the mormons are nice in trying to recruit folks, and the jewish don't bother. I'm likely missing two or three others offhand, they come around once or twice every few months.
Though to answer your question. You can't really find most books with an angel or devil here, they've been 'misplaced' or 'on loan' or 'being fixed' because these folks burn, destroy, or so hate fun books that they 'dont exist' save online, The problem is here, the idiots have an exclusive in road to keeping knowledge that's not the king james bible friendly for the gods or devils from reaching anyone unless you get it online. And given I don't tend to buy anymore after many 'misplaced' packages happened anyway. Heck, the DF i had to hit up the bay for, out of a friends recommendation that it was a good series.
Sorry there in rambling about, but its a cluster**** of a nasty place here. But its what you get here, underneath the tourist city where I live.
3361162 I can spin you tons of tales about how "You're going to hell!" for just about everything completely and utterly stupid reasons folks here have in their minds.
3361162 I think you gave it more thought that I did, I was just referring to the provisions on gaining consent.
3361246 Should... should we be sending rescue?
Well, if you actually READ read the Bible, the Lucifer/God thing reads as a military coup that failed in that there were survivors of the old order. So of course Lucifer and all his followers are evil incarnate as they will not serve the new order.
Independent and a few other descriptions thought will ALWAYS be the greatest threat to any and all religion and cults.
From what I remember, it wasn't so much as equal rights as being able to lord over all of humanity. Or something similar.
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The version I heard was that Lucifer didn't see why angels as creatures of air and fire and with all their might would be equal to we dirty, grubby water and earth mere mortal humans. Why would the angels bow and scrape for creatures that pathetic?
And... well, from a modern perspective that story has some unfortunate implications since blind obedience isn't exactly a virtue post [insert modern war here], and that the sin he got sent to hell for ever and ever for was daring to ask: 'Why?' of God.
Its one of those tales that simply haven't aged well if you actually think about it. Like the whole Loth's wife getting turned to a pillar of salt for looking back at her home being destroyed, or the whole Nod mess.