Tirek: proud or manipulative? · 5:58pm May 28th, 2015
Well, I mean, we know the answer: he's both. But I have a specific reason to try to figure out which way the balance would tip.
Most stories in which Discord confronts Tirek again in Tartarus after the events of Twilight's Kingdom go with Proud Tirek. Tirek who refuses to compromise on his ideology, who continues to preach that friendship is a weakness and basically tells Discord to go fuck himself. And I could see that; that seems quite consistent with his character. Except for the fact that we've already, once, seen him suck up to Discord to get what he wanted out of the guy.
So, Manipulative Tirek: what if Tirek tried playing Discord again? Not a blunt force approach like I've seen in at least one story where he tries the exact same pitch as before; that would never have any hope of working. But suppose he gives Discord a song and dance about how much he regrets betraying Discord and taking his power, because now that he's imprisoned and alone, he realizes that Discord's friendship was genuine and he threw it away, the same way that he threw his brother away, because he expected that Discord would betray him like his brother did and he wanted to get in the backstab first, only now he sees his folly... and it's all bullshit, of course, but the goal is to convince Discord that Tirek is reformable. Because, obviously, Discord believes strongly in the power of friendship to reform the villainous, and kind of like an alcoholic who's found Jesus and now insists on bringing Jesus to meet his former drinking buddies, Discord's going to have a strong interest in pushing his new philosophies on others he sees as being in the same place he was. Discord feels very, very betrayed by Tirek, in part because his own emotions toward Tirek were genuine; but because he himself was forgiven for betrayal, he might well believe that he should forgive Tirek if Tirek demonstrates remorse.
So I think, potentially, Tirek could totally play Discord into setting him up with a lower-security situation with the intent of "reforming" him. The question is, would he? Proud Tirek really resonates; I don't know why, but that interpretation of the character just feels right. Tirek seems much more like an Evil Overlord than a trickster... but, in canon, he really did trick the trickster through emotional manipulation. What do others think?
Personally, I believe that there is no way Discord would fall for it again. He is very emotionally weak, no matter what he says. Once someone betrays him, It would take a long time for him to forgive because he is not Fluttershy or the other ponies. He might want to fall for it, but a part of him will probably be extremely wary, never letting him in more than superficially.
I have a cousin who is like Discord. He is easy to fool once you hit the right emotional spots, but if you go too far, then iron walls pop up.
Tirek's pride seems directly proportional to how much power he has at any given moment. Sealed in Tartarus with scarcely a drop of magic to his name, he'd likely be willing to suffer any indignity imaginable if it meant he could escape. However, the way I see it, there are two complications at work.
First is whether Discord would be allowed to interact with Tirek unsupervised. Granted, he could easily slip under the radar if he really wanted to, but if he did express his desire to reform Tirek, he definitely wouldn't be allowed to go it alone again.
Second is whether Tirek would be allowed out of Discord's sight. Oh, Discord may have learned from the last time, or he may just want to stay close to his dear, dear new friend and make sure he's really enjoying the magic of friendship. Tirek would be much harder pressed to slink away and resume his feeding process with a clingy draconequus wanting to help him gaily frolic about. Heck, Discord might even slap a muzzle on him. After all, his own reformation process began with the Elements of Harmony constantly armed and ready.
I'm with Aleja. I think Discord is way too emotionally sensitive (and hypocritical) to offer Tirek friendship again. Plus I think he would actually ask the Mane 6 about it first this time around.
I don't think Tirek would even pretend to be his friend. Even in Twilight Kingdom he never intended to befriend him, he only offered him freedom and loyalty. I think Tirek despise friendship so much that he would rather stay locked than just talk with ponies.
You know just like being imprisoned by cannibals and pretending to joing them and proving it to them by eating helpless human alive. You will not even try to use this trick to escape as it is too much for your morality.
I agree with many points the others have said. Tirek is manipulative if he has to be, when he is against the wall with no power he'll use his silver tongue. When he knows he has the upper hand he becomes very proud.
As for Discord, i see him going to Tirek again mostly to gloat or confront him about to betrayal. He may have other motives, maybe indeed to see if Tirek is reformable, but he wont make that obvious even to himself. Discord can be even more prideful b/c of his powers.
Tirek was a manipulator because he had to be, and because he believed or knew that it would work. Having already shown his true colours, though, I doubt that he'd believe he could ever hoodwink Discord like that again. As other commenters say, if they did try to put Tirek through some kind of reformation process, he would be under constant scrutiny, and while Tirek is a good manipulator, perhaps even better than Discord, I don't think he could really fool everyone into thinking he's reformed when he hasn't. Somebody would see through his act. He'd have to A) be willing to sacrifice all dignity, B) be a perfect actor, and C) be able to play the long game and wait until he's just as trusted as Discord was prior to his own betrayal. And I don't think he's all three of those things, so I'm going to go with prideful. In the absence of using him again, spitting in Discord's face would be all he has left.
Plus, you gotta figure that Tirek has been offered the chance to change and have his freedom before. Unlike most other villains, Tirek is explicitly shown to have had family that cared about him, so Celestia has probably been regularly offering him second chances for quite some time before he escaped. But he was still in Tartarus for over a thousand years, so obviously he's chosen pride over opportunity before. The only instance we know of where he played the manipulator was after he had already escaped from prison on his own terms and was at risk of being sent back.
That's the thing with Tirek - he's good at being the trickster and lurking in the shadows and lying to get his way, but he doesn't want to do these things. You can see this in the show. As soon as he has the power to leave the shadows and make open war on Equestria, he does exactly that. He abandons subtlety altogether the moment he no longer needs it. At heart, he is a prideful being who wants to show the whole world just how dangerous he is. All the manipulation and sneaking about is so that he one day won't have to manipulate and sneak about, and I get the feeling that he really detests doing it sometimes.
He could've easily opened with the hostage gambit to Twilight, but did he? No. He didn't want to. He wanted a fight. And that's who Tirek is.
3105687 I think your last paragraph would be an awesome story.
In general, there's no way Tirek could pull off such a manipulation in one event, but if he got Discord to keep visiting him, to "practice friendship," after a few years I think Tirek could convince Discord to get him out on some kind of parole.
I see Tirek as certainly capable of manipulation, but not really inclined towards it. It was really a desperate last ditch effort as he had no hope of taking Discord in a fight and was moments away from being sent back to Tartarus. I wouldn't even say he's exceptionally skilled at it, or a better manipulator than Discord, he just lucked out and landed a critical hit on the gaping emotional weak spot that Discord had been wrestling with since Keep Calm and Flutter On. And what he said is actually...you know...kinda true. The ponies were actually pretty explicit about their intent to use friendship as a chain to keep him in check. So it's not that Tirek is an expert manipulator, it's that Discord was carting around a button so big that anyone with even mediocre skills could press it.
It'd probably work, but I can't see Tirek getting anything done afterwards. EVERYONE is on to him, the Mane 6 have their Rainbow Power, and now that Discord knows he can steal his own magic he could probably take precautions to make it so he can't anymore.