Rites of Ascension · 5:47am Dec 29th, 2014
Blocked again, for offering logical commentary on the irrational use of Discord (once again in a psycho form), which the author then proceeded to contradict several times in his 'explanation' without apparently even realizing it.
Discord is super-powerful, but weakened when he first escapes.. he then STATES (this is now his personal canon, mind you) even Luna in how weakened form was a threat to him when he first got out... which then leaves the issue of why CELESTIA didn't then attack him since she was at FULL POWER and therefore strong enough to destroy him on her own... but this then makes no sense as to why in his universe, with a Discord who could have killed the Bearers or tormented them and threatened to harm them... a) why his statue wasn't properly guarded b) why she still sent the Bearers after a creature far more vicious than anything they were prepared to deal with when she was strong enough in her current state to directly battle him and quite possibly win and c) does not explain with any rationality why Discord, this maniacal psychopath, merely used the exact same simple brainwashing tactic he'd used in the show.
In another comment, the author states that Discord is not omnipotent nor omniscient.... yet in a comment just previous to that he hinted that even being re-petrified is part of some massive Xanatos Gambit (more like Xanatos Roulette in this case) Discord has had planned... which is rather suggestive that, if not omniscient, he does seem to have quite significant predictive powers to engineer such a far-reaching and far-off plan and have any real expectation of its success (which is basically demi-omniscience at that point). In addition, his version of Discord was VASTLY more powerful at his full strength than the canon version... powerful enough to crack reality so badly that even the Elements couldn't undo the damage to their world. This Discord also killed at least a dozen alicorns, whom I'm assuming were at least around Celestia's strength. Perhaps he's not omnipotent, but really, that's splitting hairs rather finely when the character is stated to have such massive power. That would be considered a power among the highest god-tiers of the Marvel Universe, for sake of comparison.
Therefore, this is a direct and obvious set of serious characterization flaws and an instance of irrefutably contradictory reasoning... of several comments within less than a half an hour.
And people wonder why I rant about such things.
People need to learn that literary critics are not here to kiss up to anyone. If I find a major flaw in the construction of a story, I WILL point it out.
As I have repeated many many MANY times now, when you dramatically change the history and personality of one or more characters, EVERY SINGLE EVENT touched or influenced in any way by those characters after the point of those changes WILL BE ALTERED. That's basic historical cause and effect and something even every halfway decent time-travel story realizes. Hell, it was a core plot point in every "Back to the Future" movie.
Somehow, far too many fanfic writers are oblivious to this simple fact, even when it is quite bluntly explained in unambiguous terms.
Time travel is a tricky subject that I don't like to use very much, for the very reason that I must now think back and consider how everything has been altered by one tiny little change in the past. It also opens up several cans of worms, the most prominent being whether or not time is linear (thus negating free will). If it isn't, then you have to ask yourself whether time retcons itself, or just splits off into an alternate timeline. It's easier to just not bother with it at all. AU's are the same way. You have to consider how if a person acts differently from the beginning, how that will affect the present.
Of course, that's a separate issue entirely from poor continuity within an AU. That's entirely on the creator of the AU.
2688153 And upon thinking a little more, his explanation that Discord was weaker than even Luna when first escaped in his canon is dead wrong.
Evidence: "Return of Harmony" in his version of Equestria still occurred the same as it did in the show ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WRITING.
Why this cannot be true: Discord still broke the spell Celestia had put on the Elements' storage room, a "powerful spell that only I can break." Now, unless the author explains this away with some sort of well-thought-out loophole or trick, that little tidbit already indicates Discord was more powerful than Celestia.
Also: Discord took control of both Sun and Moon. I think that speaks for itself of his power relative to the Princesses.
Finally, if all Discord needed was some time to 'power up', why risk confronting them at all? Why not hide in the planet's core or out in space or anywhere they couldn't reach him until he attained Super Chaos level, then rocket back and blast the heck out of them?
Nothing about the author's scenario is plausible or sensible, therefore it doesn't work in the slightest.
2686637 I always like to point out that J.R.R. Tolkien gladly took criticisms on his masterpiece. He was grateful to his readers when they noticed errors he'd missed and corrected them in later editions.
A good writer is one who is not satisfied with anything less than the best story he or she can tell.
2694890
What a silly notion. Continuity within your own story? Who has the kind of time that requires? Pbbbttt.
2694973 Silly me for even thinking of such a notion!
I shall write a story where all the characters die at the end of every chapter and start the next going shopping or eating pizza with no explanation at all. There shall also be conspiracies and vampires. And sexual sex! LOTS of it!
*Alondro ends up #1 on the Best Seller List for 99 weeks*
God dammit humanity...
It's the sexual sex that would do it. Any other kind of sex is just too vanilla.
2695105 What about.... smexual sexx0rz!
Please. That's so last millennium.
2699036 Never forget the classics!
I'm reading that story now myself, and I disagree with your arguments strongly in most major cases, although you definitely have some good points.
1. Celestia didn't attack him because, while she could attack him, it's been clearly stated several times her only true combat spell is essentially a nuke exploding around her, and she doesn't want to risk any of her pony casualties when she can just send the Elements of Harmony, even if it's riskier. Whether this was the correct decision or not is irrelevant; it's also been shown that Celestia suffers fairly severe anxieties about engaging in combat from when she killed I think it was 100 000 in the first war.
2. Discord did the same thing he did as in the show because the author, given my impression of the story, does not want to directly contradict any pre-season 3 canon. You claim it does not make sense because this Discord is a sociopath, but he plays life like a game. Sometimes he is serious and goes all out to conquer the world, sometimes he is a bit silly and doesn't really try. Before killing half a dozen alicorns, he was just messing around really, no more of a threat than say an Ursa Minor, just another magical monster that an alicorn can take it's time in getting to. Then Discord decided to up his game and start killing alicorns and scrambling reality. He didn't kill the Mane Six because he didn't feel he had to, that it'd be more fun to break them. Although this just a guess on my part; I've only read about halfway through and closer to the end his actually motives might be revealed. To really ask why he didn't kill the Mane Six though you have to ask why Dicord does anything, which at this point could be several things. To spread chaos, to spread disharmony, to kill every alicorn, to rule the world, I do not know.
3. The difference between omnipotent and near-omnipotent is that Discord can make mistakes, even if they are very rare. If Discord was truly omnipotent, it'd be game over already, no way to beat him without another omnipotent god on the good guy's side to even the odds.
4. As for cracking open the Vault containing the Elements of Harmony, maybe Celestia didn't make it a full power locking spell because it would drain her magic considerably and she didn't think anyone would even be able to crack it as it was, since Discord arriving was fairly unlikely. Admittedly, in this part you have a point, but it's something that wasn't written in the fic itself and the author had to build his fic around it which is difficult.
5. Luna said in her conversation with Discord that he only conquered Ponyville, so I feel it's likely taking control of the Sun/Moon was actually a high level illusion that affected only Ponyville. It's a stretch, but since it's a spirit of chaos that has very peculiar magic I feel it works.
2775511 Yeah, see, problem with your arguments about Discord is that they're all head-canon. And head-canon without the slightest shred of supporting evidence is absolutely inarguable.
2780642 And you're explanation is headcanon as well. You're assuming the story doesn't make sense because Discord isn't like that. To say things played out in the show because of the reasons I listed is admittedly presumptuous, but not for a fanfic. And points 1 and 3 are not based off of headcanon, and are the opposition to the largest points you have against the story.
2780812 Show me ANY canon evidence that Discord ever killed.
ANYTHING?
No?
Well well...
2780860 But what you fail to understand that this is a fictional work, outside of show canon! The author makes no claims that canon Discord has ever killed! I've read some of your other comments in the past, and I seem to remember that you prefer it when authors you the AU tag for situations for this, but frankly you have to live with how it's currently used. The majority of fimfic users like to use it only when an event in the story directly contradicts canon, for example Nightmare Moon defeating Celestia, or Trixie arriving in Ponyville on the Summersun Celebration to use the Elements of Harmony.
Also, feel free to show me any canon evidence that Discord has not killed. The simple fact that this is a children's show doesn't count, as there has been a funeral in one of the background one time, and Sombra has enslaved ponies which is just as bad as murder, give or take a little bit depending on your moral stance.
2781005 there is a major difference though. those are what if concepts, alternate worlds and such.
from the sounds of it rites of ascension is basically making things 'convenient' for the story rather than logical.
seriously, why would a being who is a millenium old only have one spell, one that only destroys everything around her? that is not good writing at all. its an excuse.
when you change one thing yo uchange many things in such a story. having discord a killer creates a scenario where either the elements would have destroyed him or celestia would just outright kill him, especially if he was actually weak.
though knowing this guy he probably earned being blocked. he has a tendency to go to inappropriate extreme.s
2781190 You really shouldn't judge 100k+ stories based on a couple hundred words. Celestia having only one spell is the result of how alicorns in that world work, and Discord not being killed is a result of either the elements not being able to kill him, as he's still a god, or Celestia/Bearers having mercy because they're nice. I can't even speculate really, as the Discord arc is probably going to be one of the last ones written(after all, you can't get much more climatic than a fight with a god) and from his user page and blogs, at a the least the amount written for the story will double, at most it could be ten times as large.
2781235 ....... it sounds more like how alicorns work is engineered in order to remove celestia's ability to kill discord then and there. and even then if he was so weak, she could have teleported the both of them somewhere unpopulated and obliterated him there.
the elements or the wielders being 'too nice' is also very contrived. the regal sisters would have every desire to kill him. and its clear that the elements of harmony are far beyond discord's power to begin with, so that is not an issue either. and even if the elements are somehow not able to kill a cold blooded killer, they could have utterly purged his power from his being. the elements are not limited to how they punish or defeat evil. hell they purged nightmare moon from luna's body. why not purge discord?
and to the contrary, a few hundred words can completely destroy a story...... i cannot judge if this situation with discord is such a story breaker, i truly can't, but it is by no means a small flaw. so many things have to be twisted around in order for the idea of discord being murderous to work that it just seems contrived.
when you have to twist around so many details for that part of the story to work, it raises the question of it being worth it to begin with. be like trying to create some kind of complex reasoning to chrysalis beating celestia rather than either going with shining's love creating a big enough boost that chrysalis was strong neough to surprise and overpower celestia, or simply have it that celestia knew that if she tried to dodge the attack that chrysalis would ahve brought the roof down.
considering what we see in that brief scuffle between nightmare moon and celestia, it seems plausible that chrysalis could have accidentally destroyed the roof if celestia attempted to get out of the way.
why make simple answers into complex conundrums?
2781005 If you're going to make something AU, then ALL OF THE AU MATERIAL must comply with the altered history.
The more drastic the alterations to the past, the more unrecognizable the present will be.
With a more severe and violent past, the events of the TV show become far more implausible and the world would far more closely resemble Middle Earth, with the only 'innocent' locations being settlements far removed from major world events and locales, such as the Shire. And yet even there the darkness reached its fingers.
Basically, a murderous Discord cannot work if the majority of the show canon events remain. And explaining it away 'because chaos' as the typical excuse runs is simply trying to cover a poorly conceived idea. A truly chaotic creature with no defined personality would be as much a detriment to itself as to the rest of the world because, at some point, its personality would become suicidal... 'because chaos', after all!
2781235 If those couple hundred words represent a crucial plot element which makes no sense, then those can begin the rent that renders the rest of the story unreadable.
Many movies, television shows, and cartoons with central narratives which have started out fine (and sometimes with acclaim and awards) were completely destroyed in their final moments by a single terrible or absurdly convoluted/incomprehensible idea. Others worked fine as singles, but were undone by their planned sequels.
Examples: Evangelion, St. Elsewhere, X-Files, Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Quantum Leap, and The Matrix trilogy.
2781190 I go exactly as far as many movie critics whose reviews I've read and wickedly giggled over.
Go read some of the "Seventh Son" reviews, or "Twilight Saga"... they were REALLY vicious with those!
2781335 diference is that someone professionally working REALLY deserves scorn for bad products. and there is more of a wall between the creators and the critic.
that wall is a fuck load thinner here.
2781323 I did not mean a couple hundred words cannot ruin it, that is another debate entirely, but that one should not judge an entire 100k+ story by a review that covers a small portion of it. There's a lot more to it than just Discord killing alicorns, in fact a very small amount is even written about it. And since most don't have issue with it, he might not either.
2781331 It comes down to how you perceive it. I believe a murderous Discord does work, and judging that many stories that have had murderous Discords in similar fashions are very popular(Rites of Ascension, The Immortal Game, etc.) most people believe it works too. You are the outlier here in thinking it's wrong, and it becomes a tad bit hard to say your ideas improve the story when most people feel the story is absolutely amazing as is.
2781921 Oh how cute! You're going with the popularity angle!
Now, let me crush your petty argument with some other 'popular' pieces of crap: The Twilight Saga, TMNT movie, 50 Shades of Grey, Kanye West, pretty much any reality show I can name.
Now, please explain to me how 'popularity' equates with 'quality'.
I'm getting really bored with that feeble attempt to claim that my opinion doesn't matter if the majority think another way. Hundreds have attempted it in my time. It never gains any more validity no matter how often it's vomited at my feet.
2784073 How does it not? They are entertainers or entertainment that is popular, it's one of the definitions of successful. I'm not saying you're opinion doesn't matter; I'm saying you should consider the possibility you're wrong when the vast majority believe you're wrong. It does get a bit more complex though when there's a roughly equal amount of people(you for example) who despise reality shows for what I believe to be largely anger over not being able to participate in a popular medium. I'm going to assume your reaction to watching reality shows for the first time is roughly similar to my experience to My Little Dashie: Expected something brilliant and mind boggling considering it's popularity, got disappointed when it turned out to be something sub-par, over reacted and decided anyone who could enjoy it was an idiot. Please tell my what I got wrong with my synopsis, it will help me be understand your point of view better.
After no small amount of thought on the subject however, I have decided if something has reached it's goal and you're advice cannot help it get farther, don't bother critiquing it as you cannot help it. Reality television does not try to be intelligent TV that makes you think about life; it's meant to be a simple show that middle aged women and teenagers can watch after a hard day of taking care of their kids/going to school. Similar explanation for any of your other explanations. Wanting everything to be like Alicorn of the North, just going by the side bar which shows your blogs, is like expecting every food to be spicy because it's yours, and many others, favorites. Different people have different tastes, literally and figuratively, and in the same way there's nothing inherently better about spicy than sweet there's nothing inherently better than whatever genre Alicorn of the North is than reality TV. The best way I feel to judge something is by the ratio of people who feel watching/reading a piece of entertainment is a good use of their time to those who feel it isn't. The other way is by the sheer enjoyment by those who did enjoy it. I'd be glad if you could offer another scale of measurement.
For example, what would you say is better: a show that, out of a hundred people, 95 feel it was a good use of their time and five feel that it was a waste; or a show where only 70 thought it was a good use, but those who did like it enjoyed it enough to write fanfictions about it whereas for the other show the watchers forgot about it a month later?
2784073 Also, something for you to consider: I'm willing to bet most block you because you call their arguments petty and feeble, not because you point out plotholes. Most authors are fine with you critiquing, but when you use unnecessary insulting language is when they get really annoyed. Or maybe it's a combination of factors, I find a mistake an astounding amount of people make is assume only one factor causes something, therefore everyone who has a different explanation than them is wrong.
2784161 There are certain basic 'rules' to fiction writing, characterization, plot structuring, and so forth. If a story doesn't manage to at least hold to those basic tenets, then I see no reason why I should think it good.
2784170 No, they block me after I respond to their and their supporters' insulting comments about my intelligence and so forth in kind. They don't like those who won't simply cower and go away.
2784292 The difference is that few people do not back down after being repeatedly told by the author to stop insulting each other. You are one of the few people. They don't mind you not cowering, they mind you continuously insulting people arguing with you. Also, you clearly do not always wait until someone questions your intelligence to respond in kind, as what insults have I directed toward you to deserve my argument being called cute, petty, and vomit?
2784284 There are different audiences though. If middle aged women and teenagers loved works that meet and surpass your criteria, they would read those books and movies. Those are the audiences they're targeted at though, not you. I'm not asking you to enjoy them, I'm asking you to not believe every person who does enjoy them is an idiot just because they have different tastes then you. It's similar to how you don't judge a romantic comedy by how good its fight scenes are. Also, Kanye West is a musician and the whole point of reality shows is that they are based off reality and are not fiction. I know they both hold loosely to their criteria, but it still renders them exempt from being judged by your criteria entirely.
2785601 You used the 'popularity' argument.
That is one of the worst and most baseless arguments anyone can possibly use. I believe it comes second only the variations of "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
It deserves scorn in every instance it appears. No critic worth a damn would ever let it pass without a scathing reprisal.
2788019 So, because I used an argument you don't like without knowledge you despise it, it gives you the right to bring insults into the debate? I'm going to tell you something Alondro. Using insults only makes people reject your argument entirely, regardless of whether it's correct or not. Because if you're right, they must be an idiot, therefore you cannot be right. If you didn't use insults, it's much easier for people to accept the possibility they're wrong. I know many reviewers are harsh and use insults, but those are rarely to improve the writer, they're used to warn people that the item in question is not worth their time. Do you think the purpose of Rotten Tomatoes is to let Micheal Bay know he uses too many explosions, or to let people who prefer characterization and plot over visuals know not see his movies?
I would say you're critiques, at least on popular stories such as Rites of Ascension, are useless. They rarely improve the author, for the reason above, and they do not warn away readers, as they are written in a style where you focus on a single issue which do not provide anywhere near enough information to give a reader an accurate idea of whether they should read it. I made the argument that popularity matters because it's a sign that you might be wrong and should go over whether it actually is an issue and just how big an issue it really is again, preferably with someone who feels it isn't so they can balance your inherent bias. I did not make it to say that because it's popular, it's inherently a great work of art that should not be questioned. Also, it'd be nice if you could actually try to explain why it's bad instead of just "it's bad". I mean, if I replied to your argument about Discord with
then listed off a few other arguments that I don't like, would you go 'My bad, how could I not see my mistake' or 'This guy is really bad at explaining his thought process, I'll just ignore him'?
2788287 Popularity DOES NOT MATTER. It only means the creator has managed to create enough of a spectacle to arouse interest.
The Roman Colosseums achieved such a feat with naught but bloody violence.
I can point out more examples than I care to mention of 'popular' stories, movies, and all manner of creative subjects which ran amok toward the end of their formulation and fell to pieces under the weight of their own absurdity. There are also those that achieve mass fame despite being utterly devoid of innovation or intelligence. I can point out the box office successes of the Transformers movies and the recent (and mind-rapingly awful) TMNT movie.
THIS is why popularity DOES NOT AND NEVER SHALL amount to equivalency with quality, and it tells me all I need to know that you can't figure that out on your own.
Fanfic readers tend to be very 'forgiving' for severe flaws as they're primarily looking for stories which agree with their own vision of events and characters, no matter how badly put together the ideas are. Psycho Killer Discord is one of those commonly-used devices which absolutely cannot work if the Equestria in the story bears any resemblance to the canon.
I see excuse after excuse piled up on top of it, yet none explain the most basic notions of why the statue of a mass murdering god is sitting out in the open for all to see, and why Celestia merely takes for granted that this most horrible of possible threats is permanently sealed. Which, if anyone would bother to think about it, makes no sense at all seeing as how she knew the seal on NMM (a being far weaker than Discord) wasn't permanent (which is a flaw in "Return of Harmony", as I've noted. Celestia 'assumes' the seal was permanent for the sake of plot convenience, not because she reached that conclusion of her own reasoning.)
At any rate, I
2789648 Alright, I submit, Discord's statue not being properly guarded is a plot hole. Out of your entire blog post though, that's the one mistake I think he actually made in writing it that you listed. I never said that popularity equated quality though- I said they had a strong correlation, and since the correlation is strong you should check if you're missing something. For example, if a new transformer's movie is meant to be enjoyed by adults who love complex stories with a neatly patched up plot, or if it's meant for teenagers who just want to see explosions on the big screen.
2789705 Heh, the correlation isn't really that strong at all if you tally the numbers.
Or, does that mean Fox News is the best news outlet on the planet?