Chapter 14 discussion · 1:07pm Nov 1st, 2014
First of all, due to the comments, I've had to add the following author's note to the beginning of the chapter.
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry for having to talk down to people like this, but after all I hate I've received for this chapter...
DISCLAIMER:
As was the case with the entire story so far, please understand that these are not my opinions; these are my biases. I am writing what I think these characters would say, not using them as a mouthpiece to spread hatful things. I don't honestly think these two feel this way towards themselves and each other; they are both being written as people who are stressed, not thinking straight, and in Twilight's case have low self-esteem, even though she has done so much good in her life. I am writing them in as human of a way as I can, using the biases I have that I can never truly extinguish myself of.
I'm sorry if this chapter irks you in anyway. The story ends on Chapter 18 plus Epilogue; take heart that you're almost at the finish line.
Love,
-Derply
Chapter 14 has become the most HATED chapter in the story, though many would have me believe that it is the most well written. I'm sorry if I'm being selfish, but I really need to have a discussion about this. I need to know what people think; I was halfway into Chapter 15 when all this junk forced me to stop... and consider never working on this stressful thing ever again. I DON'T WANT to do that to people though! I know plenty of you love what I've been trying to do... but every time I see someone rage quit the story after having come so far, and all those likes being turned to dislikes... I'm too sensitive for this kind of junk...
So, please, let's have a friendly chat and discuss this, alright? I don't want to have to finish this story on willpower alone, especially since I want Applejack's talk to ultimately be uplifting.
-Derply
What? No that chapter was fine. Seriously don't let any haters get to you.
You know what they say about haters and hating....
Yeah, ignore the bullshit. As far as I am concerned, this was the best chapter in the entire story so far and it felt far more natural than Big Mac going behind Rainbow and Pinkie's backs did earlier. It is just a handful of people with fragile egos and big mouths that cannot accept that the characters are not perfect no matter how abundantly clear the show makes that fact. Besides, a quick check of the history graph tells me that you lost all of seven readers based on the change in the dislikes bar which is nothing next to the fact that it has more than a thousand views in that same timeframe.
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Thank you for the cold hard logic; I guess I was getting a bit too emotional in both cases...
... Yes I realize the irony of that statement, considering what it is that I'm writing
The absolute worst thing a writer can do is let the readers set the agenda. You write what you want, and only then will it have the potential to be a good story. Feel free to take the measured criticism into account, if you feel like it, but never forget that this is *your* story, not ours.
If someone has a problem with that, fuck 'em.
Allow me to reassure you my dear chapette, it was superb. People just don't like their personal canon being contradicted. It is merely a small minded minority. Just take the political view, and accept that you can't make all the people happy all of the time. I quiver in anticipation for the next chapter.
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Thank you all
I started typing again; got ten pages done of chapter 15 so far today, making it 25 and near completion. It'll be coming out with chapter 16 as soon as I feel they're both ready. Rarity, Fluttershy, Rainbow Dash, and the story's final cliffhanger... expect it all later this month
2567701 Happy to help.
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That you're supposed to take careful note of them, because even if they're rude and ignorant they still represent valuable data?
Anyway, Manlyderp, I have no particular issues with the chapter. It was pretty well written and it made sense from the perspective of the two characters.
Also, I suggest you sift the criticism in criticisms of the arguments for being wrong and criticism of the arguments for not being in character; the second one is what's more important, and what nearly all commentera seem to have missed.
I don't get why so many people are so angry with the chapter. You pretty much new a rant about Twi's faults and virtues was on the way. I think it was well done and it felt like it came from a real character rather than an author's rant, just like Mac's previous speeches. I mean, didn't hear people ranting about the last chapter killing the whole Cheerily/Mac ship.
And you bring up a lot of valid points points that Mac, as a guy who was on the sidelines during the events of the show, would probably have. I feel like it gives him great characterization and has me using this story for the basis of my Big Mac head-cannon. And not just about Twilight but the other characters as well. Especially Dash; I never even considered that point of view of her exploits until you brought it up.
Keep up the good work. Consider the constructive criticism, ignore the haters, and just right what you want to write. You got nearly 600 people who like the story so you must be doing something right.
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I'm glad to hear you're continuing, as this has been quite the journey so far. I started reading at the beginning, when it still held a strong comedic edge, when the extremes that were being shown were more played for laughs. Of course Shit Got Real (TM) and we are where we are now. I think it's been a logical progression so far and shows how things can wind up under extreme circumstances -- and this story is all about the extremes.
As to the hate... well, you're saying unkind things about people's beloveds. You are laying out flaws in blunt, stark fashion. Ironically, that's the whole point of the story, the consequences of saying mean things in unkind ways. It's a very interesting depiction of Mac so far, and a reminder that people can be short-sighted, close-minded pricks without ever really letting on about it.
What was said by both main parities I can't find myself really disagreeing with. It's certainly a way I hadn't seen Twilight before, and what she said about Mac makes perfect sense within the context of the story. I loved how it looked like you had them reach a nice, calm understanding, getting right up to the edge and pulling back... and then used the doll to give it that little, tiny kick that was needed to send the whole thing screaming over the precipice. Though I do have to agree that the whole mouth thing... well, I hope it was before the spell wore off fully. Because if not, creepy.
Bonus points for using the phrase "Choked out an alicorn princess".
So, uh, yeah. There you go. I'm glad that it looks like you'll be continuing this to its end and look forward to seeing how it all wraps up.
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Thing is, Big Mac in the story is saying them.
Big Mac, who doesn't have access to all the information we have, who is a biased source, and who holds his own opinions.
And yet, people everywhere cannot make this elementary distinction. Maybe if you put in all caps, red font and type 52 "I DO NOT HOLD THESE OPINIONS" maybe they'd get it?
Ignore the haters. I personally thought it was a great chapter and doesn't need to be changed. That chapter just shot Applejack up to Best Pony for the story.
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My apologies. I meant that Manly as the author is saying unkind things on the behalf of the character. Yes, I understand this is a case of killing the messenger. Part of that is I think the frequency with which people do soapbox and self-insert within Fandoms that it becomes difficult for some to remember that that's not always the case.
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Ahhh. Okay, that makes more sense. And I found it extremely amusing to see RealityCheck, an author who does soapboxes extremely often, to criticize ManlyDerp for that exact same reason :-P
Alas, if only everyone could realize that.
chapter 14 was fine. I started reading this story for the comedy, I thought big mac forced to speak his mined this will be hilarious. as the story continued as you have admitted it has gotten more serious and I still enjoy it. so keep it up. the only reason I would hate the story is if it did not finish I need my endings.
All and all I enjoyed it, and had no fault with the rant. Twilight herself with the nightmare gag? Just came out of nowhere for me, and didn't do anything for me. I stopped really feeling sympathy for her after what she did to Discord.
So good chapter, you can't please all of everyone.
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The less said about RealityCheck the better. What I said about so many authors trying to use characters as mouthpieces and self inserting? Yeah, very much pot (trying to) call the kettle black with his criticism of Manly.
Chapter 14 was well on par with the rest of the story. It was believable that we were gonna get a skewed version of events from Big Mac, because that's been happening the entire time.
I think the opinions expressed in chapter 14 are foolish, arrogant and show a poor judge of character. I think Big MacIntosh is to intelligent to hold them. If you're not using Mac as a mouthpiece then my opinion of him would have go down drastically
I would like to add to the people saying that Mac has just laid out flaws, that at the beginning Mac was perfectly capable of saying nice things to Granny Smith. He's able to comment beyond flaws. And his comments to Twilight with him trying to mitigate them were extremely strained. He comes across as someone who can only perceive the flaws in others. And even his own criticism of himself in the mirror earlier doesn't justify that that much right now. He was angry at himself while ripping into himself, here he's letting them no what he thinks while seemingly not upset.
2567703 What about A Mighty Demon Hunter Grooms Some Ponies as an example?
sometimes a writer hits a bad idea
2567707 there was little personal canon disrupted in that story. Mac and Twilight are just spouting opinion after all.
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I wasn't a fan of that one either, ship or no ship. In fact it was two consecutive chapters of this sort of thing that really upset me
Can't really add more than what these beautiful people have commented on, but I just want to say mathematically you are 17-18 times more liked than disliked. If emotions worked on math, you should be 17-18x happier with your progress than listening to hatemail.
Alas, it doesn't work that way. Anywho, I actually commented on the story before seeing this blog, so that can illuminate my feelings more. You just hang in there though, sorry that this has to be such an daunting process for you.
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I thank you very much for both of your comments. I'm trying to see more of the love and less of the hate now as I keep moving forward
You're story is thought provoking, what else is there to say. People have varying opinions on what's right and what's wrong so it's to be expected that people who strongly disagree with you would voice their thoughts. Personally, after that doll incident, it did make me question Twilight's mindset. Just don't everyone else get you down, enjoy the fact that people who wrote to you means that your story actually made such an impact on them.
2568166 Um, did you miss the entire part where he complimented Twilight? Or the part where he said that he was wrong to hold certain views on her? Or the part where he apologized for what he used to think of her?
The only flaws that he laid out were her dependence on magic, which is easily seen within the show, and her instability. Note, he didn't call her insane or psychotic, simply unstable. Which she is.
In the very beginning, he's just letting out thoughts while his mind is still intact. He's not afraid or confused, so his thoughts come naturally. As his mind begins to break however, it's harder to hold back the meaner opinions he has of others which leads him into this situation. And what do you expect him to think of a powerful alicorn princess with twitching eyes who has all of her rage directed at him? He's going to strain himself to watch what he says because the entire problem with poison joke was to keep him from watching what his comments.
Also, how are any of the opinions foolish or arrogant? Mac doesn't think of himself as higher than Twilight. He doesn't place himself on a pedestal that he judges others from.
I can't claim this is my favorite chapter, or the most humorous of the chapters. But, I can definitely say it's really well written, and I still love this story and want it to continue. #FightTheHaters
Sweet mother-of-the-light...Are you okay, ManlyDerp?
2568756 as I said, those felt forced, like he was stretching for something to ease the blow of what he really thought. You're nice and you're powerful, but you're a danger to everyone you know plus the whole country, you don't care enough and you're thoughtless and everyone will probably turn on you some day.
It's like complimenting someone's clothes before you tell them they lost everything in the stock market, their husband/wife is filing for divorce, their house burned down, and all their pets died
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One moment I am, the next a comment rips me a new one and I second guess myself.
I want to be able to shrug all these off so badly; take the good with the bad and improve.
All the bad is just so much... nastier then what I was prepared for though. I was expecting black and white, not grey everywhere...
This... this is a learning experience. I will improve after this. I'll have a better understanding of my audience; I will NOT be swayed away from my ultimate goal. I will become more confident after this; I've seen firsthand that I'm LOVED here, thanks to all of you.
I will be strong.
This will make me stronger.
Thank you all.
2568810 Again though, what exactly can he think of someone who seems like they're a step away from killing him? Not the nicest things for sure. He has to force out the kinder comments. That's kind of the whole point. Those being the furthest thing from his mind, they aren't just going to roll off of his tongue.
When releasing things free onto the internet always keep in mind that people are stupid, no exceptions.
2568840 (At least One Fist in the Air. And a thumb...as opposed to the 'Ten Thousand Fist in the Air' which is now stuck in my head.)
Good chapter overall, it does fit exactly with what a farmer who nevertheless gains partial information from the papers and his sister would think about Twilight. Heck one of my earlier gripes of the story, that Twilight went around turning RDs wings to oranges and screaming like a nutjob at Discord, into a strength, because it was foreshadowing. (Still not sure about Flutters turning the stare on a friend, but everyone's stressed out today).
I think the opinions expressed are mostly untrue, on the balance, but certainly there's an element of truth in there. For example, there's no way Twilight just happened to be foalsat by an alicorn pre-cutie mark, and her uncle was some famous hero in the guard with a fancy sash, and her family are commoners, so yeah, she was definitely raised a noble. And there's not a psychiatrist who would sit down with Twilight and not tell her at the end of a session that she doesn't need more therapy, if not some anti-anxiety meds. A lot of the stuff about magic was unfair, but Twilight has always come off as insecure, and I can see why both Big Mac and Twilight would believe it.
One last thing, I hope you're not planning some cheesy "the Crystal Palace wipes the memories of everyone in Ponyville" ending, that would be unfortunate.
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Thank you for understanding
And don't worry; no copout endings here. No deus ex; all human, er, pony. A very pony ending to match this very pony story.
... Pony.
2569213 Pony pony pony. Also, I forgot to add earlier and everyone else said it, but Applejack grabbing Twilight, everypony else thinking it was group hug time, and then AJ was actually choking her out? Awesomest thing ever. Twilight really needs to learn when to tap out.
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I don't know, what about it? I leave (constructively) critical comments on most stories I read, and I certainly had a lot to say about that one as well. But ultimately, it's not up to us to write the story. The author still owns it and decides what to do with it. That doesn't mean the commenters are wrong, but it does mean the author is the one with the final call.
Anyway, my "fuck 'em" deprecation was aimed at the mindless haters, not the folks with legitimate commentary.