1,000! · 4:11am Oct 22nd, 2014
So, yesterday I rendered my thousandth story verdict for Equestria Daily. When I joined up over two years ago, I never thought I'd see that high a number. We had a lot more people on staff back then, and I didn't need to be more than a minor contributor to help out. I usually did three reviews a week. Later, we went to reduced feedback and this year to straight yes/no (any additional feedback at the reviewer's discretion). Now I do about two or three a day. And the queue length, which drove us to the yes/no system in the first place, has come way down from the 170 we had then. These days, it hovers around forty.
I don't have anything too deep and philosophical to say about it. I do have one point to make though: the fandom seems to care less and less about quality writing. Whenever a story is rejected, we provide links to recommended reviewing help. But fewer writers are taking advantage of that. A smaller percentage of rejected stories come back than ever before. The two former mainstays of author help see little traffic anymore. The Training Grounds on ponychan barely sees a review request once every week or two. I'm a member of WRITE but not a mod, so I don't keep tabs on the overall traffic, but it is down. I used to get an assignment regularly every three weeks with the occasional request to take on an additional one in between. My last review for them was nearly seven weeks ago, the one prior to that another twelve weeks earlier. That's depressing.
Why does it happen? I suppose I could poll the authors and see, but not many would even see my question. Plenty of the stories we receive give credit to editing or proofreading help on their front pages, so maybe they're just seeking it from private sources now, but the quality's always going to be hit or miss with those unless you can link up with someone who has a well-established reputation. These groups exist for a reason. They're good at what they do. I wish more writers would take advantage of them.
Another has to do with where the writers congregate. Long ago, almost all fanfiction went through Equestria Daily. If you wanted publicity, your story had to be good. I'm not ready to call Equestria Daily dead quite yet—in my own experience, a feature there usually generates 1-2k views, while a story I post to FiMFiction only will get maybe 500. But with FiMFiction becoming fairly self-sustaining, more authors seem to submit stories to Equestria Daily as a "why not?" thing, because they've learned that fame and popularity no longer require quality, so why spend time on that? And it's true. I can't necessarily fault writers for doing that, though I'd rather have a small group of readers whom I know to have higher standards than a large anonymous crowd chanting, "Moar!" To paraphrase something one of the other pre-readers said (Alexstrazsa, I think): most fanfiction readers don't care if it's good. Even other groups set up to feature good writing don't get much attention. A feature on The Royal Guard only brings me about fifty readers, for instance.
But if I can convince just a few writers to care, then it's worth it. There was a push a month or so ago where some pretty prominent reviewers made public offers to help authors. Kind of an open invitation—authors have to realize we're very busy people and can't necessarily take on any project at any time. I was hoping my other reviewing work wouldn't continue drying up, so I didn't join those folks at the time, but now I should.
Yes, I'm busy too. I give private reviews to 4 or 5 people whenever they ask, though I only get regular requests from one or two of those. I also do a ton of reviewing work for Equestria Daily, and in the middle of all that, I try to work on my own stories. But if you need help, it never hurts to ask. I'll tell you if and when I'm available and whether I think I can give your story the attention it needs.
I prefer comedy, slice of life, and sad. I'm neutral toward romance and dark. I tend not to like crossovers, human, sci-fi, grimdark, and adventure. I don't review mature-rated stories. And I tend not to like taking on stories more than 10k words or so. I'll take most any story under consideration, but if you stick with what I like or can tolerate, you'll get a more effective review, since I can focus on it more than just trying to endure it.
With that, I'll go back to the titled topic and end on some statistics.
I've heard estimates of EqD's acceptance rate anywhere from 7-17%, but it goes back well before the spreadsheet, and I really don't know what the correct number is. It's probably in there somewhere.
My own record:
Stories rejected permanently (to the sun): 27. These are almost always for content against our policy that would substantially alter the story to remove or for things that aren't actually stories.
Stories given a standard rejection (to the moon): 887.
Stories rejected for minor revisions (to Mars): 43. These are given encouragement that they're not far from being accepted, and it's particularly frustrating when these stories don't get resubmitted.
Stories accepted for posting: 50.
Really, personally, it kind of just burned out to me. I tried submitting a couple of my stories in a row, got really harsh rejections of those stories, and decided that overall, I was comfortable with where I was on Fimfiction. Writing to me is a hobby and fun pastime first, and I felt like getting harshly criticized as opposed to "Hey, you made a good effort, but there's a few rough spots to fix." or "Sorry, but there's a lot more work you need to do to get this up to snuff." wasn't worth my time and the frustration. Heck, it might sound whiny, but it's just how it felt to me at the time and still feels like today.
I feel so out of the loop. I didn't realize you were an EQD prereader or that a lot of these resources are available. Then again, I'm not able to spend as much time on this fandom as I want, so I'm guessing I just missed the word-of-mouth. When I'm able to make some time (
), I'll check out a few of those places you mentioned.
As far as quality goes, I've suspected for a long time what Alexstrazsa (maybe) said, but I've been holding out hope that it isn't true. Some of us do care about quality and always try to improve with every story we write.
Thanks for the thoughts, and congrats on you 1,000th verdict! I'll probably take you up on that editing offer sometime.
Part of it might be EQD's reputation (which, I must stress, I have always been neutral on) from most of the writers here. They see EQD as a bunch of snobs who will call you a loser with no talent if your story wouldn't make Shakespeare impressed. Again, I don't believe that, though I am among the group that has gotten highly unprofessional feedback, but I got an apology (from another PR) so I know it's just people. Like you said, though, FimFiction is self-sustaining at this point, and there are certain authors whom we know will make it on EQD a lot. Pen Stroke, Chengar, Skywriter, Eakin, you, and so on.
I dunno, I guess it's just that EQD's reputation has gotten so bad that people don't see a point anymore, then I look at your stats and see a part of it. I don't think EQD is full of snobs at all. I have at least three EQD prereaders following me, and I am honored to have had three stories posted on the site.
I think it's a fallacy to say that people care less and less about quality, and unfair to the people in the fandom. We care about the show being as good as we ever have, an in terms of fanfiction, those of us who have really learned from writing here a long time have come to care. I want to give my readers a good story with engaging characters, and I know a lot of the other authors do too. Just because quality isn't always presented, doesn't mean that quality is not intended. Even my first few stories (which are awful in retrospect, and I would thank you to never read them
) were written with the intent of bringing my readers quality stories. I didn't bang them out just because. I'm gonna give FimFiction the benefit of the doubt and say that, for the most part, people want quality.
I say for the most part. We've all seen, or have written, that quick little 1500 word story that's either clop featured box bait, or just cream puff nothing that you don't care about.
I think you also forget that there are a lot of great review groups on here too. With outward sites diminishing and more and more people flocking here every day, more and more people are willing to offer whatever expertise they can, which has led to the creation of the groups that The Royal Guard links to rejection letters. Again, I think you underestimate some of the talent on this site just because, and forgive me for saying so, it's not the "official" talent.
Long story short, I don't think that things are as bleak as you make them out to be. Yeah, one could argue that the glory days of FimFiction are gone, but that might be the nostalgic lens. I don't know because I wasn't here when it started. But I can say that, reading a lot of fics like I do from authors both new and established, tons of creative, excellent stuff still gets published here. You just have to do a little digging sometimes.
Heh... I'll get off my soapbox now...
2548840 Maybe it got lost among the other words, but the question I'm getting at isn't why people don't submit to Equestria Daily. It's why they don't get freely available and high-quality reviewing help. And I did specifically mention the WRITE group for that, which is right here on FiMFiction. I don't know a lot of what's out there, but it's not hard to find.
Congratulations on number 1000! I hope it was a good one.
I haven't been writing in the fandom all that long; in some ways it feels like I missed out on some golden early days...
I understand why EQD moved to a simple yes/no, and I've gotten my share of no's (and most recently a yes!). I'm still experimenting with where to go for expert feedback; there are so many places to go.
The majority of my stories have never been submitted to EQD simply because they're too short or are a sequel to something not already accepted. Ideally I want everything I write to be able pass the EQD quality filter, even if its not destined to be posted there for whatever reason.
I sure had a point when I started writing this… oh yes, right: how would one go about contacting you for a review, and know when you're swamped? Thanks for being willing to help.
2548842 I guess because feedback can hurt sometimes, especially if you're a new author. You post a new story that you're rather proud of, then somebody comes along and says "well, I think Twilight was a bit OOC, and here are some story problems I noticed." Even if they do it politely, that can still be kind of painful. I know from experience. So then being told to submit to groups where they might see it as nothing but that? It takes bravery, I think.
2548849 Send me a PM. I'll let you know if I'm already booked up for the foreseeable future, available in two weeks, ready to start immediately... whatever my status is.
Well, if you want something to do for WRITE, I have a story in the works... I could ask for you.
Thing is, I already have the likes of Noble Thought, Prak, and Chris giving it the fine comb treatment as it is. Wouldn't want you to feel like I'm wasting your time.
I do want to sub it to EQD but I want it to be as perfect as possible before I do.
I had a talk to TheSlorg at the convention here last month, and he reckons it's a damn shame that more writers don't resubmit after getting Mars'd. I'm inclined to agree.
2548851 Definitely true. It can be hard to accept criticism. And as doctors often make the worst patients, I'm not always a graceful receiver of criticism myself. It can also be tough for a writer to see four pages of detailed problems with their story. The point may not come across or be made at all that the reviewer liked the story, but just had detailed things to say. He may be interpreted as adversarial when he didn't intend to. One I want writers to realize: the reviewer cared enough about the story to spend the time it took to compile those four pages of problems.
It does take bravery to expose yourself to criticism. It also takes bravery to put your story out there in the first place, and not many readers comment. Chances are, a number of readers will react the same way the reviewer did but just never say so.
There's not as big a step between hitting the "publish" button and asking for a critique as many writers think there is.
2548853 Heh. I'm not begging for work, but if you think there's something I add that's not already covered by your team, then feel free to ask. Which probably isn't the case with that rogues' gallery.
Never thought about the Training Grounds thing. I mean, I feel bad enough getting EQD prereaders to wade through the errors in my fics and point them all out to me.
Anyway, do people just review your fic for "free" there? (i.e they won't go "omg, not another guy who wants a review", they actually want to do it?)
You're an experienced writer yourself. How did you get there? Was it from reviews solicited from public groups? Was it from pink slips with a few dot points outlining why the gatekeeper didn't really fancy your story?
I'm a bit suspicious that either of those things are huge boons to a writer's experience. They help with the story in question, but they don't usually offer any huge revelation. It's all small improvements. We get that from reading and discussing others' stories as well, forever revising our idea of what "quality" means.
Why do fewer people resubmit to EqD than they used to? The approval is less necessary.
You can take a cynical approach to this and say, well, people don't care anymore. They can get their eyeballs without effort, so they won't make the effort.
I think the better explanation is that rejection is hard to deal with. (Also, considering the demographic of the fanbase it's not unreasonable to say that a lot of us are very insecure.)
Sure, the rejected story could be patched up, revised, and edited to just toe the line, but then all you've done is passed the bare minimum. Who wants that? The story didn't impact the reader on any emotional level, to the point where they could overlook the imperfections (and there are always imperfections). Better to move on to the next thing. Better to go do some reading and make some more of those incremental improvements.
Maybe that's defeatist thinking, but it hurts a lot less than toiling forever on something that maybe just can't be fixed.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and no – well, not exactly.
I think it's wrong to frame it as "There's not as big a step between hitting the "publish" button and asking for a critique as many writers think there is."
Now, I'm sure that is right in a great many cases, probably even a majority, but I think it's important to pay a little attention to people on the opposite end of the scale, as well as all those in-between. After all, it certainly has something to do with how people take criticism and whether they seek editing help.
For some – and I wouldn't even want to venture an actual guess at how many – hitting the submit button is the easiest part of the whole process; it's an affirming experience of 'the hard part is finally over'. I can certainly say that's true for me, but then I put in the time before hand and only publish when I've given it as much of a shakedown as I feel it needs (which can vary wildly, of course). For others, I'm sure the reasons are plentiful. Take a generous helping of the Dunning-Kruger effect, sprinkle with a well-intended handful of nonchalance, and garnish with the occasional desire for active feedback – perhaps the kind that might be better sought before publishing – and you have a pretty diverse set of perspectives.
And of course, all that fits within the umbrella for whom quality – at least in anything passing as an objective sense of the word – is not a major concern. So, like I said, I don't disagree with anything else you wrote, but I think that the degree of courage required to hit 'publish' may be tied to the search for quality and the pre-disposition towards seeking reviews much more closely that you have implied.
I for one have long since found a group of people I trust to look over my stories. None of them are EQD pre-readers.
I can't comment on EQD's current activities (I haven't been on the site for over a year) but back when I actually tried to publish stories there they were rejected for the most ridiculous of reasons. So I wouldn't have called them 'snobs' so much as 'blatant assholes'
Judging how well I can take criticism is probably better done by somebody other than myself, but I outright refuse to change my entire story because some jerk did not like the opening paragraph and wants me to change it or 'you'll never get it featured'. Long story short: it got featured, and I said screw EQD.
That being said, I think you're on to something with a decrease in quality across the board, but it's a diamond in the rough thing. The diamonds are still there, there's just more 'rough' every day, and because many people will upvote just about anything these days, it's not surprising that we end up with inferior quality stories.
I can confirm that request numbers are down. It's a depressing thing to see.
Personally, I've never really gotten good results from the editing groups on this site. I haven't used WRITE, but I have used several others, and I got extremely questionable advice from them when I was just starting out. I'd do a bunch of work fixing up my story to their specifications, and then I'd submit to EQD. EQD would then send me back a politely worded "Your story is a mess" email with five pages of edits. After that happened a few times, I quit going to editors on Fimfiction. I'm sure there are lots of good ones, but if you don't know who to trust, not only can it be a big waste of time, it can be seriously detrimental to your education.
Additionally, I think the talented writers and editors around the fandom place way more emphasis on what is viewed as traditional quality than the average reader does. The majority here seems to want ideas that pique their interest, and they aren't too fussy about the presentation of that idea. A story about Rainbow Dash and Twilight somehow becoming magically fused together into Equestria's version of CatDog is good enough for them, even with questionable writing.
So when faced with several weeks/months of possibly humiliating attempts at second and third drafts with help from an editor, I think a lot of authors just shrug and publish. Most of the readers will like it just fine the way it is. The reward for spiffing up that story just isn't worth the additional time.
I actually envy those people, as the editing process for me is always torturous. I'd love to just shrug it off and submit, but I want my stories to be remembered as something special. I haven't really achieved that yet, but I try with each one. And each time, I wonder if it's even worth it.
2549138 If I ever actually write something I consider decent again, I'll be sure to send your guys's way.
The last time I used the Training Grounds was back in April, I think, and it's definitely gotten slower. A pre-reader used to get back to you in a few days, at most--now, it takes nearly a week for a pre-reader to even take your request.
First off I'll say I don't have anything against Equestria Daily, It just never really caught my interest like Fimfiction did, don't know if its just how my brain is wired or because of some weird loyalty thing. (Fimfiction being my first real exposure to fanfiction)
That being said is there any reason to post to both sites? Does EQD have anything else to add to the table besides more exposure? If it is I'll wait till my story is done and had more of its kinks worked out before I'll worry about posting it there.
As for the drop in Stories maybe some of its because the fandom is kinda.....I don't know .....older now, people have used up their ideas and moved on to their new interests.... I don't know if that's true or not, it just feels like I'm finding less new and good content than I used to, though I suppose I could just be missing things because I'm not hunting for new content as much as I used to. I just don't have the time or access to the internet like I used to spend hours sifting though everything to find something worth reading or watching.
And lastly as for why I personally haven't looked for a more formal form of critique/editing is most likely because of fear, (Your story's no good etcetera) and me doubting my ability to ever finish the dang thing, it being the first one I've ever tried to write, and because of how dang long it takes me to write anything! Here's an example this whole comment, these 8 little paragraphs took me like 2-3 hours to write and edit!!
I like what I've written so far, but its turning out to be much longer than I originally thought it would be (Like maybe it'll need a Freakin' sequel long
). So while I would like/love/need some help, I don't want to waste people's time if I fail to finish it.
The story I have going will most likely be the only one I'll do for this fandom, its the only story idea I've had for it anyway, (I've had other ideas for stories their just not pony related.) This has kinda just been a testing the water kinda thing for me, (if my writing doesn't convey It I lack confidence) I'd like to be an author or some kind of story teller, doesn't have to be books just has to be some way of getting my a fore mentioned ideas out of my head and into the world and maybe make a career out of it, if possible, that's the dream.
So if you feel up to it I'd be honored if you (or anyone else for that matter
) read my story. Any tips for writing and needed edits you notice/recommend with your more experienced eyes and mind would be greatly appreciated.
Wow sorry this is so long I guess I had lot on my chest, and so with hope that I'll finish it eventually (so as not to have wasted your time should you choose to read it) and to wrap this up I bid thee farewell.
2549896 2549036 Yeah, TG is very slow now, because it's built around constant renewal. It's a place where people would be encouraged to give peer reviews while waiting for their own stories to go through, so it not only trained writers, but reviewers as well. Now, it's become more of a drop-off site, since those coming in so rarely participate anymore, and there are only a few reviewers who've cared enough to stick around. It's gotten to the point where it might not be worth keeping it open anymore. The few reviewers still there could easily join a reviewing group or offer private reviews and get just as much work.
2549371 I hate to sound like a broken record, but I've found WRITE usually gives a good review. There are definitely some talented reviewers on staff. I can't speak for any other groups, just because I've never interacted with them, but I know there are a few more that The Royal Guard endorse. They're probably listed in their omnibus.
2549069 I'm glad you've found people you can trust to give you good advice. I do want to keep this from being a referendum on EqD, though. That subject's been talked into the ground already and spawned a dedicated group which hasn't seen a new post in two months. Different writers do aspire to different things. Some are happy just to have there story out there, come what may. Some are happy to make the feature box. Others want to clear some bar set by a group that features what they consider high-quality stories. And even if that last one isn't a writer's thing, they might still toss one that way just in case. So I expect a certain amount of authors won't be interested in revising, but it's happening more and more. If people feel like it's not worth that effort to get a feature group's approval, that's fine, but so many don't even care to do that just for the sake of improving the story. And I'm talking really basic stuff too, like stories riddled with spelling errors.
2549043 If it's just a matter of rejection being harder to take, then why is it happening more often? Is the fandom as a whole getting more timid with time? That's something randomly distributed enough that I'd expect it to stay at a constant rate. As to my writing, yeah everything improves in increments. No one review is suddenly going to turn on the lights for you, but no one anything is. Honestly, my writing improved the most from doing a lot of reviewing myself. It's easier to see mistakes in others' writing, and once you've got those drilled into your head, you can more easily avoid them in your own writing. Next would be working alongside other reviewers and seeing what kinds of things they point out, even if I don't read the story in question to see if I agree. It still clues me in to what kinds of things they look for, and since it's not my own story, I have a better distance to judge whether it'd a valid criticism of the particular story or of stories in general. And yes, I got both of those from a public group.
No, a pink slip of bullet points doesn't help. It's not supposed to, but peer review is useful. Reviewers don't necessarily give good advice on how to fix a problem, but most do give good advice on finding that a problem exists. Even if you're not invested in a story enough to revise it, you can learn from the feedback and apply it to your next effort. At least I do still see a good amount of that: authors who don't resubmit rejected stories but do submit different stories.
2550149
I agree. When it comes down to it though: If those stories still net people over eight-hundred likes, which had sadly been the case more than once, other writers are gonna go: "Oh, so I don't need to do that either. Great, saves time." It's as much the audience's fault as it is the writer's.
People no longer care.
I mean that in the zen sense, not the depressed sense. If you're bothered by low viewcount, you've already left. If you're bothered by feature box bait, you've left already. If you're bothered by X, Y, or Z, you've left already.
We've harped forever on the fact that popularity != quality, meaning that there are people in all four quadrants of (popular / unpopular) (good writer / bad writer). If you long for more correlation between popularity and quality, you've left already.
Sure, there's Royal Guards, Royal Canterlot Library, Last Roundup, heck even Twilight's Library and Seattle's Angels, all trying to promote their own agendas of quality writing. But at the end of the day, people like what they like, and that's generally popcorn fics and clop. If you're expecting that these review groups will tell readers what to like and they'll obey, you've left already.
(EQD generates more views than these groups strictly due to a larger viewer pool, not so much in being more trusted or less trusted than other promotion sites. So for some writers, it's less of the badge of honor that it used to be, and more equivalent to self-promotion via Fimfic groups.)
I don't mean to make this about myself, but I just happen to have a solid example. One of my recent fics, a write-off winner, is currently my second-highest rated published fic. Every comment it's gotten so far has been glowing praise. Two weeks after publishing, it only just today broke 100 views. It was one of the featured fics in Obs's Last Roundup group. That bump netted me three entire views. Three. If I were disappointed that Last Roundup couldn't muster more sway in the population, or especially if I was discouraged by the stats of my own fic, I'd have left already.
I know this is overly defeatist, but I do think that for the most part, the long-term writers who are still on this site have made peace with the beast that is Fimfic. Those who seek fame for fame's sake have long-since discovered the winning formula. Those of us who have our own personal goals are just tenaciously plugging along. It is what it is.
2550149
You can deal with rejection by challenging it or moving on. When getting on EqD was the only way to get readers, moving on wasn't an option.
Comments from readers are very valuable peer review (a lot of readers on this site are writers), and you can get that now without EqD.
Rejections from EqD don't net peer review unless the submitter happens to get you as their pre-reader.
Once you've got a rejection, you have to weigh the cost of challenging it and probability of success against the benefit of success, and because that benefit is less valuable than it used to be, that analysis usually says, "Don't bother resubmitting. It isn't worth it."
I care deeply about the quality of a story. The reason I don't rely on EqD is because I disagree with how the site defines 'quality' in the first place. When adhering to little-known grammar rules (such as which way the apostrophe in "'cause" faces, which was actually considered warrant for rejection for one of my stories) is more important than the quality of the story itself, there's something wrong. I've seen absolutely horrible stories accepted to EqD based on perfect grammar and an ambitious intent.
Is the story engaging, at least somewhat original and well-written? Great, let me at it. Did the author slip into passive voice a half-dozen times in the first chapter? So what? The story's still engaging, and that's the important thing.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules and we shouldn't follow them – I don't know how many times I've been critical of people for LUS and other common mistakes – but if the flaws aren't excessive then there should be some wriggle room. As far as I've seen, at EqD it's "write exactly as our style guide demands and make no mistakes or you're a terrible writer." Or at least that's been my experience.
I find that when I do submit to groups such as TRG or EQD, I find the rejections to be just that. Their opinion that I don't have the material they want, and that's fine with me. I'm regarded as a niche writer, I write things that aren't meant to be five-star epics, just to garner some laughs usually. I had been rejected for my best fic by TRG, stating that it was a buildup to one joke. That's fine, because that's exactly what I wrote.
The changes many reviewers offer, they might not realize, would affect the original intention of the fic, and rewrites are pains in the ass to do. I politely thank them for their time, and go on my way. It's possible that the reason for the lessening of resubmits is just that: Burst writers who lose the inspiration once it's written, and going back to change it would completely alter the fic.
I'd like to see something of mine hit 'The Fabled EQD', but I understand that that takes effort and time, and usually not comedy/random.
It's become something of a ghost to me, really, I think it's just another feature site, just really really old. Doesn't mean I won't still try though.
I dunno. I had bad experiences with both my attempt at EqD and from WRITE (my reviewer couldn't parse a simple metaphor and niggled on shit that didn't really matter, glossed over stuff that did.)
FiMFiction has always been full of shit. EqD had some HORRENDOUS stories back in '11 when I first started... None of this is news.
I'd like for people to actively pull apart my stuff. WRITE seemed really dead last time I poked at it.
2548842
I tried WRITE once a while ago. Overall I don't recall being too impressed. The general sort of results I've gotten from going to strangers for help editing a fic has been a mixed bag and now I mostly just struggle to get people I know, who I know are good, to edit my work.
Aside from that, the new EqD system system is a bit flawed in that 'yes/no' doesn't work when something is borderline passable or when something is rejected for a specific reason. I recall submitting something a little while ago and it got a 'no', and then I had to go bother the /fic/ prereader thread to find out why it was actually rejected. If I recall right, it was show, don't tell, which in the story it concerned was a choice I made for the sake of brevity, so I had 0 intention of changing it. I never resubmitted.
As an author, I find EqD rejection to be incredibly unhelpful. It's the equivalent of getting a "meh" in the comments. Why bother submitting anything when the chance of acceptance is close to zero and you have to wait a month to receive a form letter rejection notice?
Not every reviewer is going to take the time to write up a response that shows where I need to improve a story. When my stories tend to be 50k+ words, I have no idea where to start fixing things unless I get some specific feedback. Given the number of groups of FiM dedicated to helping create good stories, you're bound to find someone that can point you in the right direction.
What I hate though, is that mature stories seem to get all the views—good and bad. People also throw out crap about hot topics and they get picked apart (Rainbow Rocks content lately). It seems like readers are seldom interested in picking out proper prose and instead suck up the garbage constantly spewing onto the front page. Established authors with a healthy following can also expect a large amount of views without any real effort. As a new author, I feel like I need to personally thank each and every viewer I get for having the courage to take the chance in reading my story.
I feel like I have something good to offer people if I can only get their attention. Sadly, I'm just one person standing in the crowd with many others shouting much louder than me.
I'm not in a position to say for sure, but I'd guess a significant factor in the declining popularity of the various author assistance resources is that most of the people willing to use them have grown past the need. Established authors don't require nearly as much help with their writing, and they tend to gain groups of dedicated pre-readers who'll take care of any remaining issues away from the public eye. New arrivals will still need aid, but outside of another huge fandom popularity boom there's no way they'll be able to match the rate of the initial explosion.
I can tell you why I haven't revised my stories: laziness.
The Stars Ascendant I didn't get a whole lot of feedback on; I'm going to probably have to sit around and think about it again. I think I've got some ideas of what to fix, and then after that I'll poke some folks and see what they think.
We Can't Turn Back Time I got some specific suggestions on, one of which was labelled as being possibly optional (it involved a perspective change to Cadance in the first chapter); the other two are readily correctable, I just haven't done it yet. Honestly this would not take that long to fix, but if I have to do the Cadance thing, I'd have to do a lot of rewriting.
The Butterfly's Burden I haven't fixed because it would require a fair bit of work just due to its length and the way it is written.
The latter two the rejection notice said they were close to being "worthy". The first was basically "eh, nope, go figure it out".
So, yeah. Laziness. I do plan on getting around to it one of these days, but... I guess I prioritize making new things first. I actually am planning on going back through all my old stuff and revising it - I actually have revised a couple things, though not the Equestria Daily rejections - but it isn't super high priority. I more take the feedback as "how can I make stuff better in the future" (one thing in particular - namely, confusing use of pronouns - is something I definitely look out for a lot more now) rather than "stuff to fix", but I really do want to fix them. It isn't that the feedback isn't useful - because it was - it was that I just kind of decided to start incorporating it into what I did in the future rather than fixing the past.
Maybe after I get everything else off my plate, and finally get around to revising my first story...
2551416
I've seen variations of this argument so many times that it's ridiculous. If you can show me a rejection letter that says that's the only thing wrong with the story and it's being rejected anyway, then I'll believe you, but since I get to see all the rejection letters, I already know that's not the case. If someone's pointing out details like that, they're pointing out multiple ones, and it's not each individual problem but the sum total. If you disagree with the reasons for rejection, that's fine, but there's no need to resort to hyperbole. In your strawman, the PR would have replied, "I'm sending your story to be posted. The only problem I found was backward apostrophes. Please fix them while you're waiting for it to show up on the blog."
2551422 Traffic on WRITE is definitely down right now, but they're still around. One thing I didn't really go into: If you do a bit of homework, you can find a reviewer who suits your needs. There's a thread in the WRITE forum containing a list of the reviewers. If you find one you like, you can request that one. I bet other groups operate the same way. Or simply find a writer you respect, especially one who's good at writing the kind of story you want help with. They may not be interested, but it never hurts to ask.
2551504 If a story is close but still below the threshold, it won't get a simple "no." We want to find stories to feature, and that would defeat the purpose. We'll tell the writer exactly what the problems were because we want to see it return in good shape. If it's a flat "no," then the story needs more advice than we can take the time to give, but we also feel like it's something a decent reviewer could easily spot. Deliberately telling, or breaking any rule for that matter, is a gray area. I can appreciate that you may have done it intentionally, and the better a story is otherwise, the more leeway I'd give an author in not assuming it was an oversight, but there still comes a point when you have to decide whether the rule was broken in an effective way. Sometimes it just doesn't work. I can't say for your story specifically, because I haven't read it.
2551584 Certainly some writers have grown to the point they're capable of self-editing or only need someone to spot-check things for them. Maybe it's because these highly visible people aren't using public reviewing resources anymore that others aren't following suit.
2552622
I'm just grateful for the one story that made it to EqD. (Even though it's a gimmie, being a FoE sidefic.)
I think I'm banned from WRITE, actually. When I poked last the join/leave button wasn't present. I'm kind of over it anyway, my review read like some rando trashing it instead of a dedicated "professional" reviewer. I also don't tend to take deconstructive criticism very well.
2552622
I believe it was only a day or two after the change, so it could be it wasn't looked at as thoroughly while the objective was clearing the queue.
I may try looking over it and resubmitting.
I actually just got a story rejected from EqD, after a month of wait. What was that about the queue size being down?
Now, the prereader was really nice, and told me that my fic isn't far off the mark. I'm confident I could get this fic on there. The problem is that the review contains the following lines:
Like damn, if you can't* give me anything more specific than that, of course resubmission's gonna take a while.
*The prereader did point out a specific problem with one specific scene, to be fair.
Verily, your wish may just come true as time goes on.
I'm glad Present Perfect linked this. I love these sorts of discussions. And I get to play my super-edgy barbarian card:
I don't care about quality.
And I don't think anyone else should either. The goal of writing fiction is, in a broad sense, just to evoke a reaction in the reader. That's not a simple thing -- there are different types of reaction, different strengths, readers with different preferences and so forth. And yes, you can have your own personal standards -- tropes you want to avoid, technical limits you want to impose.
There's nothing wrong with any of that, but in the end it comes down to the story and the reactions it gets.
Where does the idea of quality -- good writing -- fit into this? If it's just a formal way of measuring reactions (or a guide on how to get reactions), then it's at best redundant and at worst an ineffectual substitute from the reactions themselves (a dozen comments from readers saying what they liked and didn't is more informative than a lone critic telling you what you didn't wrong.)
On the other hand, if quality is not a way of measuring reactions, then it's worthless from the start. So why bother?
Now don't get me wrong, there are caveats all over the place. I do like reviews because of the detail (this has reminded me to throw a few stories into WRITE, as it happens), and I do submit to EQD because it's a good advertising service. And I do like getting compliments, because ... well, a pat on the head and some attention is always nice, right? But I always privilege what I want to write over rules from the self-appointed arbiters of quality. And I'd rather other writers did the same.
Has someone ever mentioned how ponyfic as a whole is better for your being a part of it?
Because if not, I'll gladly be that person.
Congratulations on that crazy milestone.
2552700 You're not banned. The WRITE mods restrict group membership to the reviewers. If you want to submit a story for review, PM one of the mods. There is probably a thread in the forum somewhere with instructions, but I do know you can PM Burraku_Pansa, Professor Plum, or Csquared08.
2552799 The wait time was about 10 weeks when we started doing yes/no reviews.
I'm a bit late to the table here, but seeing a link to this piqued my interest. EqD doesn't really have much relevance to me for a purely practical reason: what I write best are very short stories, often under 2,500 words, and (unless I've missed a rule change) those aren't considered by EqD anyway.
If I wrote longer fics, I probably would try the odd one out on EqD. I've actually only ever submitted one piece, back in my early ponyfic writing days. It was rejected (rightfully) but I was put off enough to put my energies into this site, which at the time (mid-2012) was really taking off. And, once I discovered that short-shorts were my thing, there wasn't really much incentive to return to EqD.
Out of curiosity, how would you say the breakdown is with those stories you accepted for posting? Did most of them made a trip (or two) to the moon or mars?
50/1000 is still a better chance of success compared to getting a novel traditionally published
2557749 Well, one thing I'm surprised nobody asked is why my ratio is that low. The overall one since March is in the teens, and I'm closer to 5%. Part of that is the way I pre-read. There are some PRs who only pick things that sound interesting and stay with them even if they turn out bad. Some take stories in order, no matter what they are. I start pretty much every story in the queue. If I can tell from the first few pages that it's not going to make the cut, I'll reject it. If I find it interesting for some reason and I've gotten past that point, I finish it out, even if it's a rejection. If it just doesn't grab me at all, I leave it for someone else and only come back to it later if it ends up sitting around forever.
But to answer the specific question you asked, yes, most of the ones I sent for posting also got mooned, Marsed, or both at some point, so while I do count them all as separate verdicts, there is some double- and triple-bookkeeping of stories. I'd have to go back through all the approvals to see, but I'd guess 35 of the 50 took two or three tries to get accepted. Around 10 got through with only minor corrections needed, which doesn't even garner a Mars. I just tell the author what to fix while he's waiting for the story to appear on the blog. And the final 5 (or so) are the most frustrating: ones where I told the author he was on the cusp of getting posted, but he never resubmitted.
2559119
Thanks for the insight. I can imagine how frustrating those final few are…
Bless you for powering through the story queue
2551422
2552700
I'm sorry that you didn't appreciate the review I gave you. If you had further concerns about it than what you'd mentioned at the time, you could have raised them with me.
2551504
SLP, I can't actually seem to find a fic by you in the WRITE submission archive. Are you sure you ever actually sent anything our way? Or was it under a different name, or something?
As someone who has taken his sweet time with my editing, this is kind of nice to hear. Thanks for reminding me that we all do this because we care about the writing.