"Y'all" · 1:33am Aug 29th, 2014
Occasionally, I've heard folks say that people misuse the word "y'all" when writing the Apples' accents. The gist of it is that "y'all," being short for "you all," is only used as a second person plural. I've always had my doubts about this, but generally deferred to the opinion of others, because it's not that big a deal, really.
Well, today, I was watching a documentary television show featuring folks from the South, and wouldn't you know it--they do, in fact, use "y'all" in the singular. Now, there are lots of variations of the "Southern" accent across the region, so perhaps this use is more common where that series was filmed (Louisiana, to be specific). I've read that the accent that Ashleigh Ball developed for Applejack most closely resembles a Tennessee accent, and for all I know, the singular "y'all" isn't as common there as elsewhere. But the fact remains that this grammatically incorrect usage can be accurate, depending on which part of the South the person is from.
As someone currently living in the south, though not as south as some, I can confirm that I don't get out enough to offer any great amount of data on the matter—but yes, the fact that it's acceptable in the singular is my understanding as well.
Certainly, those who use it are as likely as any writer is to use it however they wish, and less likely to care if it's "wrong."
Y'all mad?
'Course, accents don't necessarily follow grammar all proper like.
Aside from the aforementioned y'all, f'rinstance, ain't is a contraction of am not, but it's used lots'a different ways.
Dis iss wut haeppins wen peeple confewz gramma fo dick-shun.
But in reverse.
Meh. I'm keeping it on the list.
Y'all can be singular or plural, but all y'all is extra plural.
My saying on the subject can be found all across fimfic. Knowing there's now a documentary where people are helping spread the misuse of the word ... *brain implodes*, I still don't like it. It confuses the hell out of me when I read it and I'm left wondering just who in the hell the pony is talking to.
And to help spread the correct use of it [at least in the written word] will correct it when the error pops up. But thanks for posting this ... informative, but I couldn't watch that. It'd make my OCD go into overdrive and would probably drive me either insane, or into a massive rant.
Oh!
2410402
ain't [Merriam-Webster Dictionary]
Was originally "Are Not", but strictly speaking has evolved to grammatically mean:
Definition of AIN'T:
1
: am not : are not : is not
2
: have not : has not
3
: do not : does not : did not
2410558 They are not "helping spread the misuse of the word." They are real people, speaking with their real dialects. Y'all is used in the singular and plural in many, many southern locales. I know you don't LIKE it, but that doesn't make it wrong. Especially since the ONLY time you should be using the word "Y'all" is in speech, where you are free to be ungrammatical as much as you want, so long as it stays in character.
Y'all is singular. All y'all is plural. I base my statement on the expertise of Tim Wilson - Southerner Extraordinaire (which also can count for Trixie's accent when she's in the sauce)
2410591
If it's not used correctly, it's being used incorrectly. Thus that documentary, and those in those locales that use it improperly are spreading the misuse of the word. It's literally as clear cut as that. And it's not that I don't like that persay.
I just really hate being confused, especially when immersed in a fic. If a person's going to say something IRL or in a fic. They might as well use the words properly. Especially with writing accents.
But not everyone is from the sticks, and using a word that is plural by freaking definition as a singular word is retarded (Especially when it's not a wide spread thing, and historically it was a plural word). And makes no logical sense. If you're going to say "You All" you need to be addressing "all of the people" in that place or conversation. Not just one person.
Definitely not when you have a lot of talkers, or people in a conversation and you go from talking to one person to use a plural word, while still talking to that other person. Or if you do shift to all of them, make no note of just whose included in that bit of dialog.
And I'm stopping now before I go into full rant mode.
As I understand it, Applejack has an Appalachian accent, from which most other southern dialects come originate.Also, I am not sure I have heard AJ use "y'all" in the singular herself, (I may be wrong however.) If she hasn't then her using the term as a singular would still arguably be wrong, as it wouldn't fit her personal form of speaking, regardless of whether or not it being used in the singular is correct on the whole.
As someone who has lived in southern Mississippi all my life, I have never heard anyone use "y'all" as singular instead of plural. However, I do sometimes hear "all y'all" to be extra plural, mostly from relatives in Louisiana.
2410591
Road sign outside of Memphis, Tennesee: Y'all buckle up! It's the law.
2410543
"All y'all" is, in fact, commonly used in place of "all of you." "Your" can be replaced with "y'all's."
I can only speak from personal experience in Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama and the Florida panhandle, but in all those places, "y'all" is most definitely used as both a singular and plural "you." Regional differences may apply.
2410705 Sign's written as if it was speech :P
2410698 Southern Louisiana is where I lived for a fair portion of my childhood, that matches with my experience.
2410706
Point taken!
"Ya'll" is one of my favorite case studies in English etymology. First off, it's a great word, because it's typically very friendly sounding, and one of the few easily identifiable "southern" words that doesn't just drop a letter from the end. It's also picked up a lot of use beyond typical accents because there is no "real" second person plural in English.
One thing I want to point out though, is the spelling. I know many write it as "y'all", assuming it's a contraction of "you all", but I don't hold that to be the case. Anyone with a southern accent doesn't say "you" they say "ya" as in "are ya gonna finish that?" Ya'll is a contraction for "ya all", as in "Are ya'll about ready?" That said, I think "y'all" is appropriate for north-eastern US style speech uses, as that accent is much more likely to say "you all" and contract that to "y'all."
2410698 Ah yes, the lovely "all ya'll." This isn't just "extra plural" or redundancy though, but a legit grammatical construct that conveys new meaning. Ya'll is simply a plural noun (or noun-phrase if uncontracted) and is therefore a single part of speech. It simply means you (as a group.) "All ya'll" though, is explicitly referring to every single member of said group. With a third person plural pronoun (like "players") this is done all the time. "I want the players to keep practicing while I'm gone" is not quite the same level of admonishment from a coach as "I want all the players to keep practicing while I'm gone." Likewise "Are ya'll coming with me?" is quite different than "Are all ya'll coming with me?"
I can vouch that in Texas, both forms are most certainly used all the time. However, I wouldn't really say that Applejack's (somewhat variable) accent has ever really sounded very Texan to me, insofar as my suburbian ear can tell one southern dialect from another.
2410591
Words have meanings, even in dialects. Just because someone is speaking a dialect doesn't mean they're incapable of using words wrong in day to day life. "It's a real dialect" is no defense against "that word doesn't mean what you think it means." No matter how many people misuse it, y'all is still a contraction of "you all" and so by definition referring to a group of people. It's still therefore improper to use on a single person.
2410652
Linguistic correctness is defined by use. Therefore, singular y'all is correct.
At least it isn't "youse guys". Silly northeasterners.
My English teacher says,'Y'all' ( i am not in the south )so i don't it is grammatically incorrect
Huh. Thanks for that!
The more you know.
I can verify that y'all is used as singular, and all y'all as plural, in many parts of southern Kentucky. I can't speak for other places, having not visited them extensively, but I have a large number of relatives there, and most people in the area use the words this way.
So basically, Applejack can't grammar well?
2411093 That's not how language works. I'm sorry, but everyone is forgetting a fundamental reality of the world: Usage defines meaning. If enough people misuse a word, it absolutely means something else once you're done.
And either way, we are not talking about dictionary definitions. We are discussing whether it is proper for a character speaking with a Southern accent to use "y'all" in the singular. Because people in various Southern USA regions do that, then it is proper.
What 2411111 said.
2411111
It's still not correct. It's a preversion of the correct usage that was brought over from Scotland, and most importantly how it was originally used. That and OCD doesn't care about others "logic". The point remains that even contextually. It's being used wrong.
That and really. "Ya" is two characters that are relatively close together, and quick to write. "Ya'll" is 4 characters 5 words and takes longer to write. It wouldn't hurt a person to use the word correctly. That and in written fiction you lack alot of the physical cues that'd make sorting out the misuse of "you all".
And that's what really annoys me is when there's no freaking clarification. Especially when the author either suddenly switches from "ya" to "y'all" without clarifying who in the ever loving hell that switch is for. Or even worse using "Y'all" for every single mother bucking use of the word "You".
Seriously. It's so much easier to use the word properly the first time. Especially those who aren't using it as it was originally meant are using it wrong. I don't care about dialects. Or context [of them misusing a word]. "You all" is "you all". It's not "Hey you", it's not "you over there", it's not "person I'm talking to". It can't be any freaking clearer. It is "you" and "all".
That and I'm going to continue correcting people online about that in their writing. I don't give a flying buck if they want to butcher proper english IRL in their free time. But if they're going to write it, as a person (among many) who's only seen in used properly. And if I wanted to google it would see it as "you all" [which adds to the confusion for readers]. Then I'm going to clear up that jumbled nest of nonsense. That and the fix is so simple. Changing "Y'all" to "Ya".
The only time, place, or reason you should / could ever use "Y'all" on one person is when talking to a person in context of a company, business, or organization they are in. Prime freaking examples:
At a store: "Where do y'all keep the electronics?" [When asked to an employee inside a store. Contextually it's referring to the business as a whole. And takes only a few seconds to clarify "Where does this store keep it's electronics"].
At a restaurant: "Do y'all serve sweet tea?" [targeting the store as a whole. Not the individual.]
Organization: "So ... y'all are the Cutie Mark what-now?" [both if they are all together or talking to an individual. Since you are litterally talking to or about the group as a whole. Not an individual.]
Even with those exceptions. Y'all is singular by definition. No groups misuse of something so simple is going to change that. And I don't care that there are places that've misused it for generations. It being Tradition doesn't mean it's correct if they aren't going to use it correctly.
2411276
And no. Just no. Some locations might. But that's the kicker. I've been in more southern states and northern states than most non-military families. And Never once in all the places I lived. Ever ! EVER! See it used wrong.
And with a very small group of characters that's literally the only bucking characters with a southern accent. They should do what most Southerners do and use it bucking correctly. It's so simple to do to. Literally. Two letters for "you" [faster to write than three letters or 5]. and 5 for you all [faster than 7 characters [including the space].
So no. The Apple Family using something that is wrong in every freaking way. Is not okay. That and as aforementioned in this post. A lot of the people are going to run to google or a dictionary to see what y'all means. And what they are going to see is it's proper usage. That a majority of the world uses. And they are going to see "Plural", and" Contraction of You and All".
I just want people to spell it correctly. Ya'll is incorrect.
2411371
...or if they've ever been the male lead in Harvey. I'll let them get away with it then.
2411406
That is physically painful when I see that written.
2411935
Never seen that play.
2411954 The joke here is that then you're not just talking to them, you're talking to them and their friend the six-foot-tall invisible white rabbit. Therefore, the plural is acceptable.
2411967
That is a funny exemption to the rule. Thanks for sharing that
.
2411371
Because accurately representing a dialect is wrong, now?
Well at least you're big enough to admit it. [/kidding]
Use defines meaning. Use defines meaning. Use defines meaning. That's how languages evolve.
"Literally" is supposed to be the antonym of "figuratively." However, people in the modern age frequently misused literally to add emphasis to a figurative expression. Now, Merriam-Webster, Cambridge Dictionaries, and the Oxford English Dictionary all list the "wrong" definition as one of the definitions for the word "literally." Merriam-Webster has a note in the word's entry about criticism of the newer definition, but I guarantee that eventually such notes will disappear. It'll be like the inverse of "flammable" and "inflammable." Similar changes to the meaning of words have happened over and over throughout the history of the English language (and non-English languages). I think Terry Pratchett said it best:
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Language evolves. But if only a comparatively small portion of the nations populace uses the incorrect usage. While that small group might understand it. The greater percentage that uses it correctly, has always been around people who use it correctly, and that look it up on google see the "Correct usage" of the word.
So it's not used contextually correct. Since the Apple Family is the only pony groups that use that dialect. To be more accurate. Ponyville Apple's are the only ones who use that dialect. Thus like here on earth. Most ponies aren't going to have that context. You All is You All. Not You All is just one person. So it makes more logical sense and is so much more easy to freaking use the term as it was meant to be used. Contextually makes sense [since they are an anomaly and Literal, Logic Minded individuals would have to stop Apple Jack every misuse of the word to ask who else she's refering too in the misuse of the word] that they'd use it as it was not only originally used for, but a larger portion of the south uses.
Other wise she goes from understandable level of southern to this:
Seriously though. It's not so hard to use it properly. Especially since it's so much easier to do. I mean why waste more time and energy to write more letters than needed? Especially since it's going to be used wrong? Fine I can admit a small portion of southerner's use it singularly. But they are a small minority. As much as that form of Cajun [in the clip] represents a small minority of individuals who speak that form of Cajun rather than Gambit [Xman]; Lulamoon [Drunk L!Verse Trixie; and the Zepony that she ends up facing in one of their season 2 fics].
And it's one of those things that regardless of what's said here. I'm going to correct. Mostly since the written tongue lacks a lot of things that visual media has going for it.
In a fic if I'm talking to you. Saying the word "you" or "ya" letting the readers know I'm talking to you. Then all of the sudden I say "you all" or "y'all". There's no context or visual cues to show who else I'm addressing, or if I'm still speaking to you personally. Switching it up like that makes no sense.
In a film, play, or other visual media. There are visual cues, both from the talker and those around them to show that context. Since you not only hear them speak, but can see who they are talking to. A sweeping gesture of the hand [weither slight or big], a nod, a tilt / pointing of the head, leaning, other people looking at them or giving some for of affirmation or other audio-visual cues.
So in a fic. Where the word ya is used for you. And they show who they are talking to. Then they switch it up with "y'all" without any of those cues on just who in the hell they are speaking to in that bit of dialog. Is not only confusing, but contextually and grammatically wrong.
That's the big thing. You have a majority of people, online information, and sources that use it as it was originally meant to be used. It's something that can easily be remembered, and is a nifty short hand. But doing what a minority does / uses. And hoping that everyone is going to understand it, doesn't work. Especially those people who grew up all over the place in places where the usage of the word was what a majority uses. Yes, like myself.
And I agree. Elves are bad ... well D-bags really. Supremacist, with a ton of magical power. Still play as them though in RPG's because they make cool assassin-mages.
2412418
It is not wrong to write dialect in the same way that very dialect is used. People in the real world use "y'all" as a singular pronoun. Therefore, when writing dialogue which emulates that dialect, using "y'all" in the same fashion is not only acceptable, but the only way to be correct.
Also, if you think "y'all" is so much more energy to write than "ya'", then my only explanation for your cognitive processes is that you're in the same demonic class of people who write things like "R U OK?" It's certainly possible you would never write something like that, but your mind apparently works the same way.
2411276
Words circulate as they are used. Someone notices and makes a formal definition that encompasses that usage. Once the definition is made, people who are using the words can be referred back to the definition. This suppresses linguistic drift over time. Definitions define meaning. Usage does not define meaning. It merely creates definitions. The definitions have a life of their own after that. This is what enables language skills as such to be teachable. One doesn't learn merely the words that are being used, but the words that have been used for generations.
People not understanding this is part of why most human languages are rotted through with unnecessarily shifting meanings. Only scientific meanings show the consistency that could be available to all. The effort to speak in a correct and unambiguous manner is derided in a way that only scientists can escape. Sometimes even they cannot, as in psychological research.
Correct speech is not a luxury accrued solely to one codified master dialect per language. It is available in all cases where a definition is clearly available. Y'all is a case where it is clearly a contraction and clearly formed of components indicating a plural usage. Therefore, definitions are clearly available, and the term y'all can be judged as correctly or incorrectly used in different circumstances.
Of course, with my background in this stuff, I'm annoyed that people don't use "you" as a second person plural. I am intrigued and annoyed by whatever effect which has caused the second person plural to mutate in english. "You" was once upon a time the second person plural that "y'all" is now, whereas "thou" was the second person singular. It seems like the same process which turned "you" into "you all" is also at work when "y'all" started becoming "all y'all". I wonder if this happens in other languages? It might indicate a subtle fault in how the human brain processes linguistic data. It makes me wonder if there is, for instance, difficulty conceptualizing groups of other people.
The reason why I don't insist people use thou as a second person singular is because there is nobody left speaking with that definition. Definitions exist separately from usage and can survive significant contractions of usage, but they are not not so separate as to survive when completely abandoned. The very fact that this argument exists means that y'all as a second person plural has not hit the point of complete abandonment.
In the interests of full disclosure, I should say something I possibly should've said earlier. I'm in a relationship with someone from Missouri who gets annoyed whenever someone says y'all in a singular sense. He insists it's a second person plural exclusively and that it is necessary in english due to the deprecation of you as a second person plural. It may be worth noting that in his dialect, you and y'all coexist as separate terms, and in social groups where y'all would cause friction (we are not living in Missouri) he decontracts to "you all".
2412594
It's more energy since it's both more words a few fractions of a second longer to write [or longer for slow typers]. And again. You. Are. Wrong. In saying it's correct. Yes, a minority have been raised for who knows how many generations where it was used incorrectly. So for them it is normal.
But in fics. Where the visual cues needed to give it true syntax. It's not proper to use it singularly*. Especially when most of the world that uses it uses it in it's proper form. As a plural rather than a singular word. Both in the dictionaries where it pops up, where most people are going to have seen it used. And in context in FIMVerse where the Ponyville Apple Family is the only ponies who have that dialect.
It'd make more logical sense, and is better to use it properly. As it was meant to be used and is used by the majority. Rather than the minority who use it in it's generations old, misused form. And it is misused, if only a minority of southern areas use y'all in a way it was never intended.
Saying it's proper is like saying "Irregardless" is an actual word. And if you want to be witty. Yes "Irregardless" means to regard something. Since that things is not(Ir) regardless. But there's already a word for that and that's regard(ed).
*: Edit: Also those saying it's contextual in speech. There is a huge gap between speech in a visual format, and speech in a written format where those cues aren't there. And since speech / conversations IRL are 97% nonverbal cues, that are visual in nature. The written word doesn't have those cues to give said syntax to. So it's just easier, better, and makes more logical sense to use it as it was intended to be used in the first place. A contraction of "You All" / "All of You". Rather than the word "You" which already has a grammatical equivalent of "Ya".
Edit 2: Hate Text speak. Other than the whole Y'all thing. It's one of the few written mediums that sends my OCD into overdrive and gets me ranting. I seriously hate Text Speak. Is it really that hard to spell your words? Yes 1337 can be a fun cipher to use and is creative. But going the next step to butcher a language is why intelligent life in other planets would avoid the human race. A few minutes reading that and Youtube comments would make them think we have nothing to offer the universe as a whole.
2412623
Thank all that's holy you wrote that comment. And yes that's exactly right. I'm going to give you all the cookies.
lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XheQzrLfMMA/TzdhztyQsiI/AAAAAAAACpY/8wD92tnWIYk/s1600/130094%252520-%252520applejack%252520artist-stardustxiii%252520Cookies%252520cute%252520filly%252520fluttershy%252520mane_six%252520pinkie_pie%252520rainbow_dash%252520rarity%252520twilight_sparkle.png
Just adding one thing to noone in particular. It doesn't matter that some places in the south use it how it's not meant to be used. The main context is this.
We are talking about FIMVerse. Where the only ones who use "Y'all" are the Ponyville Apple family. Now if asked by anypony what Y'all means. They'd say it's a contraction [or a mix of] you and all.
Now every sentient being on that planet uses you and all [even Apploosans]. Rather than y'all. So it's use would have to be plural. Do to the fact that everyone on the planet uses the words you all for plural reasons. It on that planet is not in anyway shape or form singular. Since everyone would mentally be translating it as you all.
Thus it should only be written as it was originally meant to be used, is written in earth dictionaries, and the common earth usage as plural. That's the true context, and way it should be used in fics. Like how it's meant to be used anyways.
2412644
Most of the world doesn't use y'all at all. It is a word in a dialect local to a portion of the US. When writing dialogue in dialect, it doesn't matter what the dictionary says about proper usage, it matters how the dialect is used in practice.
If I'm writing in the appropriate dialect, I'm going to use widjadidja. When appropriate, I'm going to use y'all in the singular. And I won't be losing sleep over your OCD compulsion to complain about dialects being ungrammatical.
Irregardless appears in Merriam-Webster dictionaries, the Oxford English Dictionary, the American Heritage Dictionary, the Wentworth American Dialect Dictionary, and probably more besides. I'm not sure what else you want to satisfy your definition of "an actual word," but it sounds like you want a real Scotsman instead.
Webster does flat out instruct you to use "regardless" instead, but by the same token you're supposed to use "flammable" over "inflammable" to avoid confusion. (The meaning of irregardless is ambiguous between a synonym for irrespective, a synonym for regardless, or an antonym for regardless.)
2413279
Casual Quill proves I'm right. Then even then Ponyville Apple Family are the only ponies that use the word "Y'all". So in context. Using it singularly is inappropriate. Since the literal translation that the rest of the world would be using is plural.
There is no reason to use it singularly in FIMVerse setting. And arguing dialect is stupid. Since. It! Is! Wrong! No matter what small portion of the world uses it. You aren't writting for a miniscual part of the world. You're writing to an audience all over the world. So using a terminology that most of the world agrees as correct. And uses. Makes more sense than doing it singular. Which in context of:
One, family. In one small part of the entire planet. That has to tell people who haven't heard that phrase that "y'all" = You All. Where 99.99999999% of the planet. You All means All of you, and is freaking plural by definition. Then No! Saying it's singular is wrong. And will always be wrong. In terms of FIMVerse fics.
Since most of the world uses it appropriately. And when looking up the foreign phrase reads it as a plural word. And that world would use it plurally. That's litterally the end of this discussion. For more Look at the above commented Link. That link is the final say. As far as I'm concerned. Well that and:
http://dialectblog.com/2011/02/15/the-remarkable-history-of-yall/ [BAM! History and grammar prove me right].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y'all [and even Wiki, can agree on that subject.]
Or if you really want a final saying.
Proper use of Y'all. It's a plural form of You. Used when speaking to two to three people. All y'all for larger groups.
So no! Trying to use a a minorities dialect. And saying it's appropriate is not appropriate for FimVerse / Equestrian fics. That's what it falls down to. Any other Universe. SET IN THAT MINORITIES area [by minority. I mean the miniscual amount of people who use it wrong]. Sure. For them their inccorect usage is appropriate. But for the rest of the world / Universes that don't have that small group inhabiting it. Then no. Use that word as it's meant to be used.
2413279
Also asked all the different family members I have living around the south from Florida to Kentuky to Arizona. And my one friend in Texas. They all agree that Y'all is plural. And anyone using it otherwise is wrong. So both the world, and people who live in the majority of the south. Agree. It's plural.
2413684
I'm happy that you liked what I wrote, but please don't refer back to my comment too hard going forward. I'm bored of this conversation. I've stated my side clearly and I believe I've given the best arguments I'm going to be capable of. I'm not committed to changing anyone's mind. I've enjoyed this so far, but I don't think I'd enjoy any more of it.
Thanks for an interesting discussion and best of luck to y'all.
2415014
Sorry, and yeah. I think I'm going to be leaving this discussion as well.