Just thought I'd say... · 5:09am Jul 28th, 2014
If you are willing to declare an otherwise good story horrible because it contains elements that are not kid-friendly...
If you automatically declare any shipping fic horrible and claim to speak with authority despite not even looking in the story's direction...
If you believe that making something that's dark and good is impossible for something like FiM...
Then I respectfully disagree.
Fanfiction should not need a gatekeeper above a moderator to remove something that is truly awful or offensive, and an editor to correct mechanical and plotting issues and make a story stronger. It should not be subjected to self-appointed moral guardians who claim to be thinking of the purity and sanctity of Friendship is Magic, but will turn the other way when something they like is doing things they claim to lobby against. And above all else, fanfiction should not be treated like it's extraordinarily weird compared to drawing pictures of ponies, making music about ponies, or create games and flash animations about ponies. ALL OF THESE ARE EQUALLY WEIRD.
And if you're going to offer an option to hide anything related to fanfiction, then add an option to remove any of the other media I've listed. Because if someone is going to say that a Friendship is Witchcraft episode making fun of the blind is okay, but then recoils in horror at someone writing about Applejack and Rarity nuzzling each other, that's being a hypocrite. I've seen art that is just as scummy as anything a writer could conceive, but there's no button to block all the fan art. People compose terrible music and remixes, but nobody judges that entire field based on the worst examples.
I'm tired of this. I'm tired of myself and other, capable writers being treated like we're a scourge on the fandom.
Good night.
Hanging out on a less than friendly chat-area or forum?
Don't worry too much. Straight up writers often get the same crap.
I think that the problem is that most out of all the forms of artistic expression, writing is often considered the easiest. This is of course an entirely false pretense. Good writing takes just as much effort as any other form of art. The main difference is that it's less readily apparent with only a superficial inspection due to the time investment required on the part of the perspective audience.
It only takes a few seconds to look at a picture and roughly gauge the talent of the artist. Listening to a song or watch an animation is likewise fairly quick. Text is harder to judge though, since at a glance one block of words might as well be any other and so requires people actually take the effort to read them -- taking a more active role in their entertainment instead of just being a couch potato.
Now ostensibly a work of text can be judged just as quickly as any other art, at least in so far as it only takes a paragraph or two to just the basic technical competence of the author. Things like plot and pacing can take a longer time to figure out though, and may vary wildly in consistency. As story that starts out from a strong premise may irrevocably fumble by the end. However, that's true of both movies and television too. So again, I think it all just comes back to audiences who are too lazy to appreciate anything that isn't spoon fed for their mindless consumption.
Ok, where are you finding these things? You've made several blot posts before about mistreatment and abuse in the fandom but i have never come across it. Am I unique in this? I know I give fewer than a percent of a tuck about what some screen name says about me or what I like, but I figured I would atleast know it was being said.
Fanfiction has the same problem as the brony label: some people made asses of themselves, and that gave everyone else in the group a bad reputation. Ever see a show where some extreme fanboy tries to make everyone read his fanfiction? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
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I think it's less that people don't care to expend effort, it's that they don't like to waste that effort. If you see a badly made piece of artwork, you can just look away and be done with it. Reading a story is more of an investment, as you pointed out, and a bad story can sour someone's tastes by making them feel like they've wasted their time reading it. Even outside of fanfiction, there are so many people that don't like certain types of stories because those genres are bogged down by badly written crap. They don't want to waste time looking for something they might enjoy when they could easily spend that time doing something else they know they'll enjoy.
Of course, it's entirely possible we're both right. People come in all types, after all.
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Actually, in this case, I think we are more or less saying the same thing anyway, just emphasizing different words.
Here here!
Also, how often do we say that Round Stable is probably some place that you should avoid?
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Really? Huh. I'm not very good at being articulate, 'cause I could've sworn that it sounded distinct enough in my head.
Maybe I just shouldn't be posting contemplative comments at two in the morning.
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...or it might just be me. Maybe I failed to articulate myself properly in the first place. Regardless, what your said --or at least how I read it-- sounded pretty much the same as what I was trying to say myself.
2322313 I'Ve been telling him that for like over a year! He needs to avoid toxic comment environement like that! It's just not good for his morale!
Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but there are more awful tropes in fanfiction than in other art forms. What's the musical equivalent to a Mary Sue? The pictorial equivalent to a first person author insertion?
Most of what's wrong with bad drawings and bad music is bad execution. Fanfiction is home to plenty of mishandled mechanics, but also plenty of terrible ideas.
There's a lot of really good art here as well, of course. I do agree that anyone who says all fanfiction is without merit, or who blindly insists that writing is an inferior art form, is talking out their ass and their opinions smell like shit. The field has, however, somewhat earned its reputation.
Don't these people who complain have anything better to do? Seriously there are bigger things to worry about rather than someone writing Fallout Equestria.
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Vinyl Scratch and Octavia, in any medium.
Here you go!
Here too!
2322313 he should also probably unfollow a certain author who's only claim to fame is writing Nyx stories after Pen Stroke wrote the original Past Sins.
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I have to agree with you on this wholeheartedly.
Literature takes far more effort on the part of the audience than most other forms of media. Which is unfortunate, considering some of the greatest examples of other media are in fact based upon literature. Some of the most critically acclaimed movies of all time were based upon novels. If you want to get technical, every movie or tv show start off as literature first, in the form of a script.
The difference is, movies are instant gratification for the audience. Same with music and, to a degree, games. Literature however takes time to fully enjoy. The audience has to flex their imaginations to visualize the scenes an author is trying to convey.
For that reason, it's unfortunately too easy for some people to dismiss and even condemn any work of literature (fanfiction included) as being 'bad' or 'worthless' or even 'too easy'. While it is true that anyone can write, it's also true that anyone can draw. Six year olds can make stick figures, and technically that is drawing. But you wouldn't put stick figures up on the same level as the Mona Lisa. Anyone can make a movie, if you consider that going out and filming your friends wandering around town can actually be considered a movie.
I think a good part of the problem is, when someone sees well done artwork, or a fan-made movie, or music, they're seeing something that they themselves don't think that they could also do. And so they are more impressed by it, because it seems to be something beyond their abilities. But when they see fanfiction, that just consider that it only takes the ability to type, which they can do, thus it seems as if it must not require as much effort as another form of media. However, they don't know that all of the artists, composers, and videographers had to start somewhere, and eventually progressed to the level that they are at now. True, some of them probably had a natural talent for that media to start with, but the same is true of writing as well. Some people just have a talent for telling a story, but every author has taken time improving their skills to get where they are now.
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Most of the well know 'tropes' are derived from media which tells a story. In other words, literature and movies/shows/games. Comics can more or less be considered a form of literature, despite including illustrations, they still tell a story.
However, 'trope'-like elements show up in every form of media, just not always the same ones or to the same extent. Bad crossover fanfiction? I just have to point you to the massive pile of pony x Sonic artwork over on Derpibooru. Self-insert? Fanart is LOADED with these. There are so many 'tropes' that also apply to fanart, along with ones that are unique to that media, that it's not funny.
With music, it's less common, seeing as music is much more... I'm not too sure of the right term here... Interpretative? Most songs don't really tell a story, nor do they use elements that are given over to 'tropes' as we commonly know them. But that being said, fan music can still fall into a 'same old same old' cycle. Let's face it, dub-step has been done TO DEATH.
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First off those tropes can apply just as much to movies and television, yet those media forms don't struggle under the stigma that fanfiction does. Second, and perhaps more importantly though, is the fact that Tropes Are Tools.
There is no such thing as a trope that is always bad (though some are notably harder to use well than others). Every trope, including the most infamously notorious, can potentially be used to tell a entertaining story. As such, the problem with bad writing, just like any other art form, all comes down to EXECUTION.
Besides, every art form has their own unique staples of unpopular trends. Certain drawing styles or musical techniques can be considered every bit as irritating (especially to the discerning connoisseur) as the dreaded Mary Sue and/or author insert.
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Case potentially in point. Though as above, any style can be done both well or poorly, and so it really all comes down to the abilities of each the artist.
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Well, I did really like the Nyx stories... didn't realize the homophobe was their author. Great, now I have to be conflicted about watching him.
As far as judging certain fan-fictions, I agree. However, it should also be understood that freedom of speech (being American I assume most everyone reading this blog has it to a degree, I apologize for this unbased assumption) does not mean freedom from consequences. Understand that being a jerk can and will lead to people avoiding you and your work, valid as the rest of it may be. Be prepared to stand behind your work.
As far as fan-fiction writers being judged simply for being fan-fiction writers: I have always assumed that the majority of people who dis fan-fiction aren't the ones who have read much or any of it. In music, all one needs to see that it isn't all bad is listen to an artist or two. In animation its watch a couple minutes of video. For fan-fictions, particularly MANY of the good ones, it requires a time investment of several hours if not days, a commitment people are unlikely to make. I have always looked at haters of fan-fiction as uninformed individuals who just repeat what they have heard.
As such, if you ever receive this abuse again, consider its source. It is coming from a person who has never read your stories and therefore doesn't know what he is talking about. Such a person is beneath your concern in this regard and is therefore unworthy of your anguish.
On an personal note My Little Alicorn is definitely somewhere in my top 3 pony stories, and probably top 5 stories overall. And I have read quite a bit thus far. I assure you that any statement that you are a scourge because of the medium you contribute is unbased and laughable.
Out of curiosity, anyone know what has brought this up? I second Thisisalongname in saying that I have never seen people hate on fan-fiction, though I have seen plenty of authors lament its prevalence.
EQD?
Thank you
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Equestria Daily.
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Figured as much.
It's not the first time they have been called on this, and probably won't be the last.
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For further clarification, Mary Sue is not a trope, but a term specifically describing a bad character. Mary Sue's and their derivatives often have shared traits, that tend to send up red flags, some of which might BE tropes and/or cliches, but many of these same elements can be used to make good characters as well.
A question about Round Stable.
Does every post there really have to be approved by a moderator?
No wonder it's such a small forum...
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Is that the site that has an official policy to lick the boots of Tumblr SJWs?
Then yeah, it's crap.
2322618 I thought a Mary Sue is a completely perfect and flawless character, one that is so perfect that the multiverse bends to his/her will, most characters always agree with anything he/she says, does or believes and anyone who even makes one sentence of disagreement automatically makes that one an irredeemable villain in everyone's eyes.
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To be fair, I think at this point EQD's no fanfiction mode filter is mostly just a legacy artifact. It was something that was setup during the early life cycle of the site. Maybe it something that shouldn't exist in the first place, but really it's only a symptom of the problem, not the cause, and so getting rid of it really wouldn't fix anyone's attitude.
Yes and no. It's a something of super trope, a blanket term used to categorize a set of related tropes which are often indicative of a bad characters. None of those sub-tropes however are innately bad, and therefore it is possible (if unlikely) for a character to exhibit multiple or even ALL of those traits and still be an entertaining character. Ultimately bad characters are always the result of bad (or at least ill-conceived) writing.
Not all bad characters are Sue's though, so I think it's somewhat misleading to use the term Mary Sue as though it where synonym of "bad character". There's a huge danger in using bad/good as the central defining quality of what a Sue is, because bad/good pretty much an entirely subjective quality. This is what leads to the common Sue-Falacy where in people tend to accuse any character they dislike as a Sue.
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Also this. Marry Sue is more than just a character, it an entire writing style, practically a genre unto itself. Still, like any genre it can have can surprisingly have its fans as well as its more numerous detractors. It's easy to try and dismiss the Mary Sue a bad genre, the mistakes of rookie and/or talentless authors. Really though, as with any art form, no matter how much of a niche that genre is, so long as it has some small number of people that enjoy it then it's and entirely valid form of story telling.
To reflexively hate on the entire genre would be pretty much the exact same mistake people make when they falsely presume all fanficiton is likewise bad in the first place (or when moral guardian presume all video games are murder simulators corrupting the youth). As fans of our own niche genre, we shouldn't let our selves fall into that same kind of accusatory trap in regards to another genre.
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No. The first post has to be approved, but everything after that is fine.
Trust me, its every one but us writers that treats fanficiton as scum. I remember back on Agony booth there was an attempt at having a forum post dedicated to making fun of us...It dwindled into a legitmate discussion about the benefits of fanficiton and how well it works.
heck, you want real misery? Go to project after for a bit, whoa nelly the stories I could tell.
...aaand where does this happen?.....
Well if you can't morally agree with something then its times to go separate ways.
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Sit back, for it is time for a history lesson!
Back in
2011the forgotten mists of time, there was a thread for FiM on the Somethingawful threads. The thread itself was rather normal, although it was trolled quite frequently.The SA Forums are notable for being required to purchase an account, along with having to purchase the right to use avatars n' stuff. I'd say a good fifty percent of the thread were goons requesting avatar changes or asking what pony av they should buy.
Eventually, the mod of the subforum the thread was in got tired of all the trolling and decided it was less of a headache to just delete the thread altogether. The exiled goons promptly made Ponygoons, later renamed to the Round Stable. Due to the exile status, in the early days, users had to be vouched in the IRC. This eventually became too much of a hassle and the current system was adopted, where a new user has to make a few posts that must be approved by a moderator to make sure they're not a troll.
And yes, because a big chunk of Round Stable members are goons, our sense of humor is really, really weird.
Also, awesome emotes.