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Dconstructed Reconstruct


reconstructing the deconstruction

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Apr
10th
2014

The Pillars of Literature—Side Pillar: On Mary Sues · 11:05pm Apr 10th, 2014

This pillar is all about the idea of Sues, and what makes them fall into this category. For characters in general, look at the previous installment of this series: Pillar One

For a long time, the idea that a badly developed character is automatically a ‘sue’ has persisted in the world of fiction. Such characters are seen with scorn, even hatred. Granted, the reasons they seen as such is warranted, as sue stand for just about everything that’s wrong with a possible piece of work. However, this trigger-happy tradition to cry out “SUE!” and then burn the work that said sue exists in has led to much misconception on the idea of what a sue really is. Today’s posting will be about the nature of what a ‘sue’ is, the established criteria for sues, and why certain characters, despite having many qualities normally associated with sues, do not actually fall into the category.

First, I think it’s fair that you all know how the Term “Mary Sue” came into being. For that, we must dwell into the past, to where it all started.



The term ‘Mary Sue’ comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story ‘A Trekkie's Tale.’ This story was published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.

The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue the ‘youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old,’ and essentially satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction and characters, which were generally female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters—or in some cases, were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters. By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, stating:

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three (Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, if not all three at once). She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

The term Mary Sue has changed in the modern age from its original meaning. Now, it carries a generalized—although not universal—connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author. Most characters described as ‘Mary Sues’ aren’t actual self inserts, though they are often called ‘proxies,’ since the author will put attributes he or she bears to said characters. The negative connotation of the Sue comes from the wish-fulfillment implication: the Sue is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.



With the history out of the way, let’s talk more about the qualities that make a Sue so infamous in general fiction. As stated above, Sue characters are often viewed as little more than wish fulfilling proxies for the author (if not direct links to the author via self-insertion).

However, it can be argued that the very nature of writing any piece of fictional work is in itself, a form of wish fulfillment. After all, don’t some of us visualize a world we would like to inhabit? Characters we would like to converse with, and situations that may or may not be what we often wish would transpire to us?

Because of the nature of fiction as a whole, it can be argued that the definition of ‘wish fulfillment’ given to Sues is fundamentally flawed. It is because of this that you rarely see any character have the term ‘Sue’ in historical fact stories. It is not only much harder to shape the world to fit the sue character when all events are based on real happenings, but also certain actual historical figures were, in fact, larger than life and almost perfect in nature, thus rendering the idea of a sue meaningless.

So then, if the idea that sues are purely wish fulfillment is a fundamental misconception, then what is the true definition of a sue? Well, let’s break it down piece by piece.

1. Ad perfectam rationem (perfection)

The next ‘definition’ of a sue, after wish-fulfillment, is perfection. A Sue is generally viewed as a character that’s perfect in almost all possible ways, often to the point that it overshadows all other characters present in the story (be it fan-fiction or general fiction).

Naturally, this is a great issue, especially if it is used in the world of fan-fiction, which requires the use of established universes and characters. When an original character (abbreviated to OC) takes the spotlight away from others, he or she plays a very risky game. The audience looks for someone they can relate to. They often want to see that character fail in order to witness his rise. They wish to be enthralled by his determination, his quest to overcome obstacles, however mundane they may be.

When a character who is too perfect takes the stage, he faces none of the tribulations that keep the audience enthralled. He can breeze by any kind of issue, face any sort of trouble without batting an eye, and often ends in a better position than the characters that dominate the story in the first place. This leads to the audience losing interest, because this character has no room to develop, no room to learn anything new. Perfection may have been what let him or her conquer the story, but it was his or her ultimate downfall in the eyes of the viewer.

2. Qui procurator votum syndrome (proxy)

All characters are based on something. They don’t have to be directly based on an existing person or individual, but they are based on existing ideas passed down from generation to generation. as Ralph Waldo Emerson once said: “All my best ideas were stolen by the ancients.”

In this regard, originality is a half-truth. No one character is wholly unique. What is unique about them is their personality, their views on life (or death, if applicable), their ways of going about their lives, and the way the go about solving the tribulations presented to them by the hands of fate. In these things, even a character who has been done thousands of times can find a new life.

Proxy characters are… unique.

Proxy characters, in a nutshell, are characters that, while bearing a different face than that of the author, bear all of his ideas, skills, and even tone of voice. They are essentially the avatar of the author given life through his written word. These characters can vary in complexity, from being simple re-skins of the author, to serving as clever mirror images and foils to the author’s own being.

However, the danger of proxy characters lie not in their use on a story, but rather how they can be given proportions that cause them to overshadow all of the other characters in any one story. This isn’t much of an issue in original fiction, as the characters can be written to nicely fit along the mold of the proxy. The issue lies when proxy characters are used (or even abused) in fan-fiction stories that already have established characters that cannot be altered as easily. while it is true that a very skilled writer can find a way to make his proxy character play nice along the lines of the established universe, the results are more often than not disastrous, leading to the audiences outcry and scorn of the character.

3. Et stipulam quis (poor character development)

A character that’s poorly developed does not go far in his or her story. This is one of the major trade marks of a Sue. Without in-depth development, no character can show growth or depth. Any emotion given is shallow and artificial, feeling more like doll than an actual three-dimensional being. It is for this reason that sues are often so criticized, because they are written in a rushed state. No care put into fleshing their individual personas out to the point that they are believable, and no reason is given as to why they lack attributes that many of you have.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between a poorly developed character that arises from the writer’s lack of experience on that particular matter, and a poorly developed character that was created so (intentionally or not) by a writer that couldn’t be bothered to give his or her creations more depth.

4. Quod homo, qui non habet veritatem (realism)

Perhaps one of the most critical aspects of any character is their ability to appeal to the masses. This is achieved by their level of realism.

Realism is, in a nutshell, just how much a character strikes us as ‘real.’ How much we feel for them—applaud their heroic actions, or scorn their villainous deeds. The more believable a character is, the more we are engrossed by the narration they are a part of.

A sue character not only stretches the boundaries of belief, they often snap it, leaving the story in a position where it’s may be humorous for all the wrong reasons (especially when the story is supposed to be taken seriously). When mixed with their tendency to be perfect, and their inability to grow (due to their lack of depth), this ends spelling complete disaster for the narration.

5. Se uelle… (self insert)

Despite what popular opinion would want you to believe, the act of self-insertion does not automatically mean a sue is made. Self inserts can be well made, especially if they serve to further the story, deliver a message, make a point, or all three combined as one.

The reason self-inserts are often labeled as ‘sues’ from the start is the fact that writers use them without any thought or reason. They insert themselves into a story only for the sake of being ‘in the story.’ What’s worse, they often forgo the proxy process and make themselves little more than shallow shadows of who they are in reality. They do not give themselves depth, emotions, goals, or weaknesses. What’s worse, the nail in the coffin is often the fact that self-inserts are directly used to interact with established characters, rather than sitting in the background as observers. The results of these direct meddlings can have… unique effects on the overall story.

Now, there is also another extreme to the self insert. In some cases, when an author does decide to use a self insert, but is aware of the pitfalls the technique can have, he chooses to give his ‘persona’ far less prowess than he or she would have in real life. This can lead to a type of sue that goes in the opposite direction of the adequate character, and instead becomes what is often referred to as an ‘anti-sue.’

The anti-sue, in a nutshell, is a character that has all of its qualities purposely handicapped so that it cannot be labeled a sue. However, in doing so, the character becomes so underpowered compared to the rest of the cast in any particular tale, that his inability to keep up ends up becoming the very trait that sets him apart in a negative light. A character that is not balanced is not a well-developed character.


Now, you’re probably wondering, if all the facts stated above can turn a character into a sue, then just what can avoid all that?

The simple answer is to think more in-depth about your character. Does he have goals? Does he have depth? Is he more than just a subtle proxy for your ideas?

Finally, an established character cannot truly transition into a sue. Even if a character is blamed for ‘becoming too perfect,’ as a story progresses, them turning into sues isn’t the reason. If they develop from lowly recluses, to out-going centers of attention, that’s their characters having achieved growth.

It is possible for a character to reach the pinnacle of his or her character arc, but even then, they don’t become sues. Rather, they characters begin to deteriorate, which is a natural aspect of character development. So long as a character has conflicts to deal with that challenge him as an individual—physically, morally, or emotionally—a character is moving forward. A sue stays in place.

Keep all this in mind next time you write a character. It might just mean the difference between creating an endearing character, or hollow shadow.

Until next time, have a good day or evening, and never stop writing.

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Comments ( 48 )

"In this regard, originality is a half-truth. No one character is wholly unique."

Even in literature and art, no man who bothers about originality will ever be original: whereas if you simply try to tell the truth (without caring twopence how often it has been told before) you will, nine times out of ten, become original without ever having noticed it.

-CS Lewis

thank you for these in reading.

The simple answer is to think more in-depth about your character.

Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.

T. S. Eliot

1998595
Indeed. But a real comment on the blog, I thought this was perfectly written. You got the point across through close examinations of all the forms of sues, and all that work has to be commended.

1998249 And once more, C.S. Lewis being awesome.

I never get tired of that.

And this blog post is AWESOME

1998600
Glad you enjoyed the post. More like it will be coming very soon. So keep an eye out:pinkiehappy:

1998621 I literally just followed you because of that.

1998598
Just me doing what I do. When I first started this, I felt it was lacking in places. But in the end, I stuck to the old mantra "less is more" and focused everything I had into short paragrpahs that got the point across.

Really glad you liked it though. I really am.

Awesome blog. Thanks for helping us to develop our writing.
I hate to admit it, but my first writing had a Mary Sue as the protagonist. Good that I never posted it, though I'm going to rewrite it.

A character that is usually labeled as ´Sue´ are the Alicorn OCs. I think that's because they are obvious more powerful than a normal pony. Though there are some Alicorn OCs that I don't see them as ´Sue´ characters. I even wrote a little one-shot with an Alicorn OC and I don't think that I wrote it as a Mary Sue, I hope.

You have good ideas about writing, consider me a follower.:twilightsmile:

1998799
Awesome. Thanks for the follow. Be sure to read the previous entry in the Pillars of Literature, and expect the next one to come out very soon. In the meantime, enjoy what you see and enjoy reading my work as much as I enjoyed writing it:rainbowlaugh:

A very informative, thoughtful piece. I enjoyed that you kept things light and airy, as the topic itself is so mired in its own suffocating existence, anything heavier might've crushed us to death.

Definitely something we should all learn from. Well done! Cheers!

:pinkiehappy:

I love this, because it proves that Twilight is not a Mary Sue; she still has flaws and shortcomings in additions to her intelligence and rank, and she's developed over the course of the years the show has been around.

Usually, to avoid making a Mary Sue, I spread several traits across multiple characters and have them form a group, allowing them to work off of each other and develop together, and let the events of the story shape their flaws and shortcomings. Take my story, The Elder Scrolls: Equestria, for instance. Instead of using a superpowered Dragonborn with epic magic, melee, sneaking and smithing abilities, I have one Dragonborn with great strength, one mage, one thief/assassin, and one smith all working together as a team.

1998861
Yeah. I'd be lying if I said that at times, I was kind of tempted to go on a bit of a rant, but I kept things as partial as possible, considering the subject matter. Glad you liked my thoughts on it:pinkiehappy:

Keep an eye out for more parts of this blog series.

1998864
That's actually a pretty good way to go about including multiple traits in a single story. :twilightsmile:

Glad you liked the blog. There will be more like them soon, so keep an eye out for them.

Also, let me know if you ever need any PRing for your story. If there is one thing I like, it's the Elder Scrolls.

1998871

I instantly followed you after reading this.

Mind though, as Skeeter recommended you personally in his blog - and I highly respect his opinion on... lots of things - this was likely bound to happen anyway. No consequence!

:twilightsmile:

1998881 Oh, I would love that! Just bear with the first few chapters... they're a little rough. Hadn't really grown into those shoes.

1998886
Have I mentioned how boss Skeeter is? Heh

At any rate, thanks for the follow, and thanks for reading. Hope you're not dissapointed by what else you see 'round my little cave of horrors:twilightsheepish:

1998890
Will keep that in mind.

Also, thanks for the watch:pinkiehappy:

1998832
I for sure will read the previous ones, I'm always willing to improve as a writer. And I'll take a look at your stories also. :twilightsmile:

By the way, before I follow you you had 91 followers and now you have 104. Congrats!

1998930

By the way, before I follow you you had 91 followers and now you have 104. Congrats!

I'm having a mini-zeisure from this. Best Blog-post ever!

I've typically found anti-sue's to be my bane in any kind of story writing.

Want to make a nerdy, reclusive dork? Sure! Go right ahead!
Want to make them horrifically unathletic? Alright.
Wanna make them so dim witted they are almost downright stupid? Sure... I guess...
Wanna make them be an asshole to everyone they meet? Not really...

All of those are examples of what you call anti-sues, characters whose authors are so afraid of rejection and from their character being called a sue is that they make them just... well, crap at everything. Now while this can, and sometimes IS a good character Arc in some cases, before the characters actual revelation, so to speak, they are so frigging bad at literally everything comprehensible it's almost painful to watch this character fail.
Over.
And Over.
And Over.
And Over again.
It's almost sickening, honestly, that an author would make such a sad little, unlikable thing either out of fear, or some unrealized sense of wanting to torture something with how miserable it's life is. This whole rant may seem a bit extreme, but believe me, when you make your character so underpowered as, I've seen, that it's actually surprising that they can even stand, let alone exist in the same dang room as other regular people without them collapsing out of their own inability to do certain things, is when they become unrealistic and unlikable to the point of disgust in my opinion.

1998940
You should thank a certain yellow sponge, I came here thanks to him. :rainbowkiss:

1998963

This whole rant may seem a bit extreme, but believe me, when you make your character so underpowered as, I've seen, that it's actually surprising that they can even stand, let alone exist in the same dang room as other regular people without them collapsing out of their own inability to do certain things, is when they become unrealistic and unlikable to the point of disgust in my opinion.

I sort of like the phrase "underpowered" in this context, mostly since for me, it brings to mind video game balance.

If you're trying to balance units that should be roughly equivalent, it's not enough to prevent them from being overpowered, i.e. not easily able to be countered. You also have to keep them from being easily countered. This corresponds to how characters deal with challenges in a story. They have to be capable of at least rising to meet them, but not to the extent that all they need to do is find the strength within them and wipe their challenge off the face of the planet.

Either is possible, but I think it's a lot easier to make a character overpowered.

Excellent analysis. I've always been slightly confused on what made a Mary Sue to be what they are, and I didn't even know anything about proxies.

"So long as a character has conflicts to deal with that challenge him as an individual—physically, morally, or emotionally—a character is moving forward."

The moral aspect is one that can't be disregarded.

Historically, there's been a tendency for fiction to be a Manichean struggle between good and evil. This tends to lead to making your protagonist decide to do the moral thing in every single circumstance, whereas the antagonist is a heartless puppykiller who wants to destroy the world for shits and giggles.

More recently, every damn television show and even some ponyfic is all about a morally ambiguous antihero. This can be done well, but more often, it reflects the same problem: there's no movement, morally speaking. Characters should be changed by their experiences.

After all,

The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains ... an unuprooted small corner of evil.

If that line isn't shifting, you are doing something wrong. People are just as complex morally as they are emotionally. One of the problem with Sues is that they don't reflect this.

This was a fantastic description and analysis!

It covers all that's needed, and doesn't go any further than it needs to. I think I'm going to follow you just for this. :rainbowderp:

EDIT:
Oh, and an actual comment…
Well, everyone knows about the old saying: "It's not about the destination; it's about the journey."
It's all about getting to understand and experience the character become a better (or worse) person.

Now I feel redundant for saying this. :derpytongue2:

1998963
An excellent rant, if I say so myself. I can relate in many ways to what you have said.

1999007
I have already prayed to his altar and offered my future firstborn child to him as a way to repay his gratitude. He accepted the offering without question :pinkiecrazy:

1999112
Its true that I could have mentioned the morals, but that was covered in the last Pillar, that of character. I covered it in much detail there. Still, a refresher wouldn't hurt, so I might just add it to the blog tomorrow, when I'm not so drained from writing.

1999172
I'm unsure as to what to feel based on this image...:rainbowderp:

1999193
Heh, It was a good saying. Your comment is apreciated:rainbowkiss:

> “character arch”

¡character-arc!

1999435
Fixed. Can't believe that one passed me by :twilightblush:

This post is hard for me to wrap my head around. It doesn't seem to me to throw any new light on the subject of what a Sue is. On the contrary, it seems to me that you just have a mental picture of a Sue rather than a clear and distinct definition, but you realize that most other people share a generally similar picture of it, so you have taken it upon yourself to just make observations about that mental picture, and rely on the fact that other people share the same mental picture with you to allow them to properly interpret what you are saying.

It is as if some woman named Sue works with you and a bunch of other people at the same office, and when you gather around the water cooler, you say to some other people, "Boy that Sue sure is a weird one!" and everyone around nods and laughs because they know exactly what you are talking about because they are already familiar with Sue themselves.

All of your advice is basically naming symptoms instead of getting to the root problem. Things like perfection, self-insertion, and realism are all secondary to this basic problem. Perfect characters can be done well, self-inserts can be done well, unrealistic characters can be done well. None of these traits does a Sue make. You have hinted at a means of diagnosis, but have not explained the underlying problem.

So this is my explanation. A good character exists to serve the narrative; a Sue is a character whom the narrative exists to serve.

1999470

Nothing wrong with calling a blue fish blue. :moustache:

Surprised that there was no mention of the infamous "black and red Alicorn" symptom. None the less though, this is rather great for people don't know what makes a Mary Sue what it is. I find it annoying when you find a good story that gets totally wreched by Mary Sues.

And for those that need a fantastic example of a well made OC, look at Little Pip from Fallout: Equestria

This is quite a blog post and I am glad to take these teachings close to my heart. For what better way to learn writing than to listen and learn from the ones that are famous for it?

(And maybe just do what you think is right, which is a 50/50 percent chance of you doing it right or doing it horribly. Anyways, have a good day:rainbowkiss:)

i have alot of writer friends many of them published and none have described sue's as well. this was incredibly informative.
skeeter is right. you are awesome.
have a follow.

1999595
Darn, I knew something was missing. I might make an addition to this soon then.:pinkiehappy:

2000313
Thank you for the watch. And I'm not the awesome one here. You are:rainbowkiss:

1999470
I just realized I never gave this statement a proper reply. Truth be told, it was so enlightening, that it's prompted me to write a continuation to this blog touching on the this very subject that I missed entirely.

Finally, an established character cannot truly transition into a sue.

I don't know about that. I've seen some fics, both here in ponyland and elsewhere, that take an established character and make them into basically an all-powerful god for no reason other than that the plot demands it or that it just looks cool.

2117388
If that happens, then it's not trully considered considered a flaw of sueism. It's more a flaw of the story itself. Character developing (regardless of how powerful they end up becoming) will always be considered character growth, especially if that character started in a very grounded form.

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