It was leading to rabbit holes of character arguments that spiraled into hellish domains where finding a feasible 'out' for Sunset grew dire indeed. After several attempts I've decided to just rip out the rootNeed opinions on something story related · 6:23am Apr 9th, 2014
Well, I'm in a bit of a pickle, and need some opinions from all you wonderful people. I'll begin with the tl:dr; Would it be detrimental to include humans in Myths?
I'm pretty sure I'll be getting mixed reactions to that question... So, I'm going to try to explain a bit more why I'm not just contemplating the idea, but have written most of a sequence already. The answer is simple; hilts and doorhandles. I've been trying for some time to come up with a reason for why swords are made the same way within the setting as for humans. The best I've managed to come up with to this point is that unicorns grip the hilt in the same manner as a human would. The reason for this, rather than encasing the entire weapon, is to avoid disrupting the their grip when hitting other objects. But it still leaves lots of holes and problems.
However, if the answer is simple mimicry, it makes more sense. There is no point or reason beyond that humans made their weapons that way, and the other races copied the design. This also leaves a bad taste in my mouth, though. I already have technological advance /extremely/ stagnant within the setting under the justification of 'magic'. To say that it is/was humanity that progressed science and engineering undercuts the equine races tremendously.
My editor is /extremely/ leery towards the idea of humans being included within the setting. I received a similar reaction from my brother when I explained the idea and problems with him. I'm very torn on the idea. To top it off I don't fully trust my own ideas at the moment. I'm very fed-up and depressed, and this issue has become a fairly heavy load on my anxiety. Yet, I find myself turning back to it over and over. Just typing this blog I find myself swinging heavily towards the 'NO! Bad Tundy!' camp. In five minutes I'll be on the other side of the fence though.
Before I post this blog, I want to stress that while humans may appear for a single chapter (two at the most if the sequence is cut in half for length and/or thematic reasons) they're impact on the plot would be fairly minimal outside the effect they have on the growth of a small group of characters.
Oh, lastly, I may be in the market for a new editor. One of the people that have been helping me knock my writing into shape has a baby on the way and wont be able to spare the time for anything else. So, if anyone's interested... Just, be warned, I listen to Honey Mead the most as he's been helping me the longest and I trust his judgement, and with my anxiety I get jittery while waiting on stuff to be edited.
Hmm, I'm on the fence with this one too. There are other races with thumbs on Ioka, so they could've crafted a similar design. Maybe a race of apes or something.
Another option, and I don't know how well this would work into your timeline, is to turn Humans into an ancient, forerunner like race. By the time Pony civilization began to develop, Humans were long gone, but traces of their technology remain. This could also explain the inconsistent technology (Cameras, DJ turntable, etc) within the show.
Or maybe Ioka had brief contact with another world/dimension and received the tech then.
I suppose I don't really feel comfortable with Humans having a thriving country on Ioka. If they were from another world or a small tribe secluded from the rest of the world, it would be ok with me. No matter what you do, I'll keep reading.
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To say humans (if included) would have thriving countries would be a gross over-statement. I keep thinking of a cross between Bhutan and lost Amazonian tribes. What I have at the moment is that there used to be a lot of humans, and they were closely tied to the griffons, but had a falling out when Discord arrived. Bad stuff happened, and humans were pushed to near extinction, only a few small pockets surviving. I'm still sorting ideas out, and this is all theoretical at best.
Humans would kinda kill things a bit for me, to be honest. Surely you could come up with a more appropriate race that works in the context of the story's vibe to attribute things to.
Perhaps another species, like Lemurs, for example?
For me, the answer is simple; if it's incorporated well into the story, and has good lore behind it, I don't see why humans couldn't be included.
In my opinion, stories that are well written could actually benefit from humans, while when poorly written, it can be extremely detrimental. It all depends on the context, I think.
Since humans can be highly controversial, you could try to come up with lore that has nothing to do with them. Maybe in the ancient past, gryphons used to keep ponies as slaves. When they eventually broke free, they kept some of the gryphons' designs, since they were there and ready. While they inevitably moved on to different designs, the weapons and architecture were seen as 'traditional', so they kept with it, even into the distant future.
Weird/dumb idea, and it might even go against your already-established lore. I like the stuff you've already come up with, though!
In the end, it's your story, so you get the final say. I think you should do whatever feels right, and not to worry too much about what people will think!
Not exactly a simple answer after all, it seems.
I'm definitely in the
I don't really like humans, hie and whatnot
Now if this would start just now I would propose using a different kind of "sword" which would be more logically if wielded with the mouth (my idea is going in the direction of Bat'leth it would reduce the akward movements since the blade is no longer on just one side and also give some sort of protection for the mouth since the guard on a normal sword only keeps the pony from biting the blade but doesn't really protect their face.) At least that's what I'm using.. or rather something inspired by this. Unicorns and elk could still use "normal" swords, as they wield them with magic ... since they might be easier to handle
But since this should be out of the question ... you could either make humans some sort of precursor species (if you absolutely have to), make the sword an invention of another species that was then copied by others (maybe Griphons, Minotaurs,...), or you could promote another species as a formerly advanced, maybe even dominant species, (Minotaurs for example again ... hell even dragons...) that then met some sort of demise that led to their decline.. although I believe the last option might contradict your established lore ...
Well, after more than 250,000 words I won't stop reading even if you decide to include humans ...
I could imagine a Human or two, but only in a similarish way to the Valyrians from Game of Thrones, I guess? In that show they're just kinda a cool badass people who die out because of natural disaster and left behind enchanted, unbreakable swords and other artifacts...
Needless to say I've ben watching too much GoT lately
I think if you are going to include humans don't have them be a living species, have them be extinct. It will seem less out of the blue and more of a side note, in fact you don't even have to tell anyone else that humans exist. It could just be a bit of your head canon, lots of authors include human shaped weapons to offer a understandable point of reference.
But if you feel you must include humans in the story and you must show them to us instead of having them be something squirreled away in your mind as canon, please have them be extinct or just mention them in passing. Don't bring a massive amount of attention to them and most people wont mind.
Do remember that whatever you do I'm going to keep reading your work, it is something I haven't found again on this site. A perfect mixture of history and fantasy in my favorite setting, Equestria.
I'm inclined to say you ought to stay away from including humans into the story, it would sour the fic quite a bit for me personally, though admittedly not enough to stop reading. Probably.
Frankly the presence door handles, sword hilts and the like don't bother me in pony stories simply because at their heart they're still fanfics about intelligent cartoon ponies. If such things were to really give you pause, then the entirety of the MLP world should as well.
After all, intelligent or not, none of the races except unicorns with their magic and perhaps gryphons with their claws(if suggested to have an opposable thumb like digit), would be able to use any kind of tool or craft any kind of structure or object. Applejack, for instance wouldn't even be able to put on her own hat short of just... ramming the top of her head into it. Or tie her mane or tail. Ponies being able to grip objects in some manner is just an illogical, cartoony quirk that must always be present in every story.
Humans could work, but don't seem to be a good fit in the universe that you have been building. A precursor race of another kind with hands might work also, but doesn't explain why ponies haven't redesigned things to better suit themselves.
I have always explained the pony ability to pick up and manipulate objects as a form of telekinesis. While unicorns can do it from a distance and handle multiple objects, the hooves of all the races can also manipulate things that they touch - a phantom hand if you like, and hand, even non-human ones, are designed to grasp swords, handles, and so forth in just one kind of way, so tools and such end up resembling human ones.
Actually, the reason a lot of weapons are held at one end is so you can use the handle as a sort of fulcrum. In a sweeping attack the weapon's own weight will multiply the force of the blow. That's one of the reasons longer swords cut cleaner. (assuming the blade is kept sharp)
That said, I realize this is unicorn magic, and magic strongly disagrees with physics. It's your story mate, so I say go for it if you really want to. Personally I think you could get away with it either way and have the story be just as good. My personal opinions on humans in pony stories is irrelevant.
Edit: A lot of swords have gems in their pommels. You could weave a tale about unicorn magic and gems getting along/the gem disrupting hostile magic if it's currently under allied caster control. Just a thought.
Personally, I'd rather humans not enter since you've already ponified a bunch of human gods.
I think you can mitigate the strangeness of things human items like swords by modifying them a bit to suit ponies a bit more. Perhaps swords could be wielded by mouth a la lion Sora in KH2. Door handles and the like can be changed for ponies as well -- they could be placed futher down the door than we're used to, and, instead of an actual handle, it could be a depressible button with a lip. Ponies would essentially step on the button and pull to open a door.
Then again you could work on the the argument that these are all relics of alicorn society, given the fact that an Alicorn would have no problems with things like swords and door handles. There's also more to a grip and pommel than just having a good place to hold the sword: it's really the best place to hold the sword to maximize the damage of a swing due to leverage. The pommel can also act as a counterweight to the blade, making the sword easier to swing from the grip. Thus, it's not so wierd that alicorns hold their blades by the grip because it's the most efficient way to wield a sword.
Or you can just kind-of-sort-of ignore it like the show does. Just look how they held those mugs of cider! Or blame the Quus! It's gotta be their fault somehow, right?
Why not use minotaurs? As seen in the show, they have prehensile hands with opposable digits, and they walk upright on two legs. It would make sense that they would develop technology designed to be useful to beings with human-like hands.
If you do decide to include humans, I wouldn’t mind the Bhutan/Amazon tribes idea. Small, isolated bands of xenophobic humans could make for an interesting addition to the story’s setting.
Humans don’t even need to be native to Ioka at all, if you prefer. You've established multiple worlds, and that travel between those worlds is possible, so maybe they could have been ancient visitors from another disk. Or maybe someone from Ioka visited the human disk and brought back human goods and technology.
These are just suggestions off the top of my head. With a little thought, you could probably come up with much better scenarios--you’ve built a world that gives you a lot of flexibility, after all.
Whatever you decide, I’ve read your work long enough to know that you’ll handle it very well.
Blades without guards and mcmahons.ie/media/catalog/category/door-handles-4.jpg
No humans.
There's already too many alicorns running around.
You can explain hilts for ceremony and not wanting everypony to nick everypony else during parade. Get rid of the guards on the swords. Not needed since being wielded by magic. Unless you come across ponies that wield by mouth. That's where the hilt comes in. Like that one character in One Piece(bad example, I know).
Poor Applejack
I like the minotaurs idea.
Please don't include humans. Hilts and doorhandles could come from races which does have more hand/claw-like appendages (minotaur and griffon for example); it's not completely unbelievable that ponies created them either since they occasionally seem to be able to grab things with their hooves which they by all rights should not be able to hold (like a hat for example).
Minotaurs, which are in the show and your story already, have hands. Why insert another?
I have to agree with the minortaur idea,they seem most likely. There was never any evidence in the show about them using magic so they would probably be more science oriented.
If you insist on humans though, having them be an ancient race that went extinct would be for the best, and the ponies could have just adapted what they had left over from their time.
Glancing over the posts, I like the idea of minotaurs. Lemurs seem more appealing, but either could work.
Also, if you want to go in this direction, the G1 comics has the ponies interacting with humans and humanoids commonly, whether they be from other kingdoms, evil wizards, or entities of force within the world (such as the man in the moon and the wind wizard). Obviously, some aspects of this would conflict with the G4 world (Luna controls the moon now), but I suppose it's possible humans exist in another realm, and there may have been some interaction at some point.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
everything but only not humans in myths xd
I personally wouldn't sweat it much but it would be weird, probably awkward and also, I think, unnecessary, if the purpose is just to explain something like how a sword came to be.
You could have minotaurs be the great black smiths of your story, they seem to be few in number so they tend to go for higher equipment quality over quantity so the other races copy them to various degrees of success.
You could also just remove swords from the story as a pony weapon and come up with your own.
Pegasi already lend themselves to the idea of wing and leg daggers.
Unicorns can still use swords, though to be honest i always find the idea a bit silly when they have magic, my favorite weapons for them would be something like the Immortal Game with small fragmented blades that can take the shape they require.
Earth ponies I can see wielding something like a klingon bat'leth. The bat'leth is an incredibly silly weapon for a human, it's got a shape that is totally wrong for us but for some reason it seems like just what an earth pony would actually be able to use effectively with their superior strength and gripping the centralized handle with their mouth.
Also lances, the only weapon we ever actually see in the show is lances mounted on their flanks during Rainbow and Fluttershy's jousting competition.
I personally would not mind including humans. But since the world (Ioka) is already heavily worldbuilt, making them as separate endangered tribes in the rainforests/forests, as an ancient extinct civilisation, or exist on a different disk is preferable.
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Wow, this is a far more detailed, thought out, and involved response than I was anticipating. Thank you, every one, for the time you put into your responses. There is a ton here, and I will admit I am a bit intimidated and humbled.
Just skimming I see minotuars popping up a fair bit. I'm not too sure why I rejected those guys, especially when I have them on Geae doing what I'd otherwise have humans doing: Generic Henchmaning.
Regardless, I know what I'm going to do now.
Again, thank you.
1994496 See Tundy we care, we all love your story and want to help you make it be the best it can be. So don't spend weeks agonising over an idea, just ask for help.
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I can totally hear you saying that like the main character of a show realizing how to beat the antagonist. In the most badass way possible. Go get em, T.
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Meh. While I have a thing for minotaurs, they apparently have their own thing going in your world and it doesn't seem to involve ponies.
Others have done a good job of stating my opinion, so I'll keep it short: Please no humans. They very, very rarely add anything and would just muddy a story like this with already complex world-building. Minotaurs have hands, griffons have grasping talons, both warlike species that would create 'traditional' melee weapons like swords and daggers, both intelligent enough to invent doorknobs and the like.
It doesn't really matter to me. You're so talented that anything you do sounds good. I guess I wouldn't mind being your editor, but I should warn you that I'm only good at spelling and grammar.
As stated previously, there are other races with hands/thumbs; blame it on them, or a forerunner race. No humans, for it would throw the story feeling off.
You already know what to do, and many others already said what I was thinking, so I'll just say that I trust what you can come up with (and if you screw it, another rewriting would be acceptable).
Remember you can't include little isolated populations without including some sapient otters when deciding species. They are more lovable than humans.
And, as someone mentioned The Immortal Game in this discussion of weaponry, I'll leave here my old drawing of alicorns with solid magic swords that look suspiciously like lightsabers.
th02.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/111/9/5/empty_sky_by_infinityvoid-d62j9sl.jpg
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I didn't read the comments made before me till now after i got home today and i just realized you suggested bat'leths as well before me. Well played.
For unicorns, though i suggested fragmented blades, they don't actually make much sense since the power of non alicorns in your world seems to actually be on the lower end of things, approaching more what we see in the show than what some of the fics.
I think you can be a little wacky with unicorns, give them something that is impractical and unwieldy to non magic users because it requires great dexterity and too many contact points to use properly by the other races, but that is no issue for them cause they're not going to cut themselves.
Something like this:
img.historiadigital.org/2012/05/Arma-Oriental-Kusarigama-650x400.jpg
Light, hard to use without magic, but effective and easy with it, works at longer range which seem to suit unicorns better, no specialized magic training beyond telekinesis and low tech so it keeps with the world.
Or just use swords, those are cool too.
I have a slightly strange interpretation of the ideas of humans. If I remember correctly, Zubu references the Great Apes, and, at least in my mind, I correlated that with the possibility of early humans (like, caveman early) or the idea that humans left on Ioka have regressed to the point of cavemen while retaining some old technology (in this case, swords) which could have been found by unicorn archaeologists when the humans once roamed a far greater part of the disc.
But that's just my two bits. basically, I think humans could be fitted into the universe, but not in the way of our current technology level. but hey, you're the world building master here, who am I to judge?
-C.Storm
If it works it works. I like the idea for human tribes, but I have no idea how they would be used in the story, so I can't imagine what sort of overall impact it would have on the quality of the story.
I would agree with the thought of avoiding humans themselves. Although, if what you want is the remnants of a race that once had power I would go with the Diamond Dogs, (it would also give them a cultural motivation for enslaving ponies).
Worst case scenario, if you can't use one of the existing humanoid races in Equestria, you can simply create a new humanoid race, (or swipe one from somewhere).