Problem with Elements of Opposition · 2:54pm Jan 9th, 2014
So I am faced with a bit of a problem in plotting Elements of Opposition (the sequel to Discord In Hell, Dragonfire and Sympathy, etc.) Namely, I know exactly how it ends, but when I try to map out how to get there, it ends up being really really rushed, and that doesn't make sense for something with this kind of weight to it.
Discord isn't being held prisoner in a keep or a dungeon. He's in Fluttershy's basement. The portal to the other universe is near the Everfree, so this seems like it would work for a smash and grab -- whoever goes to the rescue just goes through the portal, hits Fluttershy's house, teleports into the basement, teleports out with Discord, and then they go to the portal. That would be the plan, most likely.
But since Alternate Spike altered Alternate Celestia that Discord had tried to send a letter, and Alternate Celestia and Alternate Twilight know that Discord is from another universe... Alternate Twilight may be expecting a rescue attempt. And since the whole reason she's been torturing Discord is that she's trying to figure out how to use him as a filter to suck entropy out of her world and thus make ponies live longer, she's not going to be willing to let him go. I know of at least one booby trap she's going to set. But she's *smart*. And ruthless. And probably despises her alter ego and the rest of them because they willingly worked with Discord to reform him rather than enslaving him. (Since joining herself with the Diadem of Order, Alternate Twilight sees Discord as a literal abomination, and cannot conceive of being merciful to him.)
If she moves Discord on the grounds that any rescue party would look for him where he last reported he was, how would the rescuers find him at all? His magic is so heavily restricted, Alicorn Twilight probably couldn't find him by looking for chaos. If she doesn't move Discord, the rescuers would find him and free him too easily.
Also, what is the justification for sending the Mane 6? They don't have the Elements of Harmony anymore (whereas in the alternate universe, they do; the vines haven't activated yet, since the alternate Discord is dead and the alternate Elements are drawing half off the ambient power he left behind). Why wouldn't you send like a unicorn soldier strike force into a situation like this? Alicorn Twilight isn't going to go charging off and put herself and her friends in danger without consulting Celestia, and as much as Celestia is going to be internally flipping her shit over this (Celestia and Discord are no longer an item and may never be again, but he's still her first love, and while she hates him herself as much as she still loves him, she's still going to freak out over the thought of him being imprisoned and tortured), Celestia doesn't do anything half-cocked. (Not when I'm writing her anyway.) Why would she send the Mane 6, who don't have the Elements anymore, instead of a team from the Royal Guard?
See, I don't *want* this to turn into an incredibly short fight, where they get to Discord and then for some mysterious reason all their counterparts are there and my ending sequence goes down instantly. But making it take them forever to even *find* Discord isn't good either. And I need it to be the Mane 6 who go to the rescue, but why would it be? Why them alone? Even if Celestia has reason to send them (and I think I can figure out a reason), why would she not send them with backup? Meanwhile if Alternate Celestia is concerned about Discord's allies from his universe coming for him, why wouldn't *she* have him guarded by soldiers? The Mane 6 are cool and all, but they're six mares who, aside from Twilight and Rainbow, don't have particular combat skills (Rainbow being the fastest pegasus alive counts for something in battle even if she doesn't have extensive training). They wouldn't do real well against trained soldiers, particularly trained soldiers who are okay with the idea of killing them.
So I have a few things to figure out here.
what you could do is that evil twilight could move discord. However, spike could help the mane 6 with finding discord. He probably misses the old twilight and this new twi is the closest he will get to her
Discord could activate the plundervines if his magic is unbound...
Maybe the Mane 6 could go to take over the Alt 6's Elements? I mean, unless the Alt elements have been mutated or something, the Mane 6 that work with chaos & order instead of just order would be more harmonious, don't you think?
As it is... why wouldn't Celestia go herself?
I have an easy answer for why Celestia won't go.
If she sees him broken, she knows she'll be too emotional to actually help. Old feelings are old feelings, but they're still deep feelings. She was the closest to him, even closer than Fluttershy, and she'll have a hard time not breaking down or going ballistic. That's not really what a rescue mission needs, since she can control the sun. I'm not saying she'd sob and get melodramatic, but I could see Celestia being frozen with horror and turmoil the minute she sees him. Either she'll be useless, or she'll go overboard, and the other Celestia will be able to counter her while she isn't thinking straight.
At the same time, a bunch of army ponies won't understand Discord on the same level as the Mane Six and he'll need someone who knows him to help him recover. Also, I'm pretty sure they can all combat some mooks. I agree with what you said, they aren't trained, but they don't need combat to trick or otherwise incapacitate some guards. If they do, there are ways around it. Animals for instance. Weather. Spying. I don't know, but given that Twilight is already aware of how to try and slip inside the library (even though she failed) they could try something sneaky, combined with a surprise attack that is only a distraction. This applies to either side having soldiers, btw.
Also, it's possible that the Alternates may be over confident? Especially if Alternate Celestia and Alternate Twilight know the Alternates are the only ones who still have the Elements of Harmony. Maybe she applies some guards, but not enough to really stop them. It took a crap ton of Changelings to stop the Mane Six and our heroes made a really good effort, but they failed because they weren't prepared for a breakout of that magnitude.
I admit that the Mane Six rescuing Discord will be hard on them as well, but I think they can handle it. Fluttershy actually becomes more badass the angrier she is, so that might actually work out if she goes ballistic?
I actually think Cadance might be really useful here, along with Shining Armor, but I understand if you only want the Mane Six showing up.
Of note, it'll help if Princess Twilight has her exit plan ready for if they do move him. I think she'd assume he's being watched and that if nothing else, she wouldn't consider Fluttershy's place a sound prison, normally, so she may go in to check that first, but guess that it's a possibility well in advance.
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If the plunder seeds haven't sprouted yet, I think that the Mane Six could make the vines sprout! Twilight has been shown capable of learning things very rapidly. We don't know what might push the vines into activity, but it's Princess Twilight, after all.
And once they free Discord, he might be able to control the seeds? Or at least keep them from interfering with his rescue. Although, if the Elements are running off of the dead Discord, I'm not sure affecting the Tree of Harmony will matter, unless they'll flat-out shut down with it dead? If nothing else, the Alternates don't know about the plunder seeds, or the Tree, presumably, and they won't know what to do exactly. It would also serve as a major distraction and get Alternate Celestia and Alternate Luna out of the way.
Alternate Spike could also assist, if only to see Princess Twilight in person. He might also regret telling on Discord.
I confess I haven't gotten around to reading these stories yet, so I'm not sure if any of my suggestions make sense.
I'm just going to start by saying that I spent way too much time thinking about what's going to happen in this fic, so....yeah, here it goes.
Well, the thing bout Discord is that he doesn't trust anyone with the exception of Fluttershy and maybe Celestia on a good day. Being in the alternate universe has only damaged his trust further, especially since there is no physical ways to tell who is from what world. If Celestia sends guards to rescue him, he probably won't trust that they are there to rescue him, believing that Celesticruel is trying to trick him. However, Fluttershy knows things about him and has experiences with him that the alternates couldn't possibly know about, such as what happened in Light Rain. Fluttershy could convince him that she is his Fluttershy by reminding him of these things, maybe by telling him that she is the one he showed his light rain to. He wouldn't have told the alternates about this through the truth spell because, why would they ask? and nopony else was around to see the light rain, so only he and Fluttershy know about it. This would mean that Fluttershy is the only one who could gain his trust enough to get him to cooperate with the rescue. (Besides, Discord finally seeing his Fluttershy after months of torture would be just so beautiful.
)
As for why the rest of the main 6 would come, I imagine they'd volunteer to go on the mission and there are a few reasons. First of all, they'd know Fluttershy would have to go so they'd want to go as a support for her. Also, even though they don't like Discord, there is no way they are going to stand for what's happening to him and, being the proactive bunch that they are, they're going to want to help put a stop to it themselves. Finally, it's been shown within the context of the show that the mane 6 were used as a task force for Celestia whether the elements were needed or not. She sent them to the Crystal Empire, sans elements, knowing full well there was a dangerous shadowy dictator on the lose, didn't she.
Also this maybe this just me, but I don't think the question is "how many plot holes can you see if you squint?" but "Is the story that was told good enough to justify a few plot holes?" For me, so long as there's an awsome story out of this, i don't care about a few plot holes.
As much as I'd hate to say it, I kinda think Alternate Spike should die. not because I dislike, oh no, but for the repercussions it could have. Basic idea...
Order (Which is what I will call Order Twilight) knows Twilight and co. will look at the last place Discord reported himself to be (They can get this information since he can't lie to them) so she moves him elsewhere.
Twilight and co. might be sent in for a diplomatic resolution, as I don't know if they are aware Order knows Discord's not their discord and they may believe this is a twisted misunderstanding, celestia staying behind to protect the homeland against attack should the alternates not be so willing to talk. However, again, Discord, if asked, would have to tell Order where the portal is, allowing an ambush, possibly resulting in Twilight and co., along with any escorts they may have, being captured.
not sure on what happens in between, but Alternate Spike, wracked with guilt over both the fact he actually murdered someone and allowed an innocent to be tortured, helps Twilight and co. escape and shows them to Discord.
Order, in a rage, attacks the group and battles Twilight, who starts strong, but starts to be overpowered because of the Tiara and element.
Alternate Spike tries to stop her from landing the killing blow but, in her anger, Order kills him without realizing. Immediately realizing her actions, Order snaps, losing her last real friend send her into a self-destructive rage (I kinda see stuff flying around while she holds what's left of her Spike). Through her element, she begins fighting herself and the Tiara, every moment of her live flashing through her eyes (Kinda like the memory spell Twilight used to reverse Discords effects) as she mourns Spike and the Element tries to cast off the Tiara.
Not too sure on what after that. Perhaps the alternate Elements attaching to Twilight and Co. in a bid to be restored through the connection to their original elements...
Easy justification for sending the Mane 6: One of the impacts of having been the Bearers of Harmony is that they can still joint cast otherwise impossible spells. They can open the gate and the nature of the spell is such that it limits how many troops can go with them.
Or you could have it that they, Celestia and Luna are the only ones guaranteed to have a navigational fix in order to get back, (the Tree of Harmony, the Sun and the Moon respectively). This also give a reason to not send Celestia or Luna, (the Sun and Moon not being exactly convenient places to come back via).
I would give them at least some guards. If nothing else that gives you either some red shirts to off or a Worf to kick around.