Philosophical Musings: Against TCB · 10:00pm Mar 13th, 2013
My first 'article' in a planned series of blog post which I have dubbed, Philosophical Musings. I will be examining, from a detailed and philosophical stand point, some of the aspects of MLP:FIM Canon and aspects of the brony fandom that I find interesting. As a good philosopher, my title is short and brief. As the title implies, this post will examine The Conversion Bureau, henceforth shortened to TCB. I will argue against the idea of TCB using a range of arguments from ethics, logic and metaphysics. My main goal of this post is to show why the idea of TCB goes against what MLP:FIM actually stands for and how it might be changed to make it a better concept. This post was inspired by Professor Plums post on his user page about why he doe not like the TCB.
The first argument I would level against TCB would be the idea of forced conversion of humans to pony form in order to immigrate to Equestria or just the idea of forced conversion in general. This idea is highly unethical it goes completely against what we see in the MLP:FIM canon. Some of the driving messages in the episodes are loving other people who are different and learning to tolerate those who are different from you. It isn't toleration when you forcefully change a person's entire being into that of something totally different just to suit your needs. Turning someone from a thinking, rational being into a mindless drone goes totally against the idea of toleration that FIM stresses multiple times throughout the series and that the fandom itself often stresses it should do when faced with people who would mock the fandom. In my own opinion, to strip someone of their free will, or their memories of what they were, is one of the most heinous things any given being could do. It robs a sentient being of what makes it a unique individual and gives an inherent purpose to its life. To rob someone of their free will is to rob them of their life.
Also, another ethical argument to be made against TCB is the idea of ponies committing genocide. Genocide is the furthest thing from toleration that is possible. Genocide is committed when one group of people have a disagreement with another, and instead of tolerating each other or trying to work though the disagreement, one group decides to just kill all those who disagree with them or who were born different from them. Genocide is by far one of the most heinous crimes that can be committed against the human race, or any race/species for that matter. To think of any pony that has been shown in the series thus far approving of genocide is a completely illogical argument.
Can any of us really picture any of the Mare 6 or the Princesses actually approving of or actively committing genocide? I certainly can't and while one can write a story that shows such things occurring, in my opinion you are writing the characters completely out of character. Because I highly doubt any of them are closet pony supremacist who believe ponies are the master race. Also, in reference to a point mentioned in Plum's post, it was stated that one of the prolific authors that supports TCB was on the record of having said the Princesses actively committed genocide in her stories, but the argument apparently was they are goddesses so they do what they want.
While I have not seen the actual post where said author stated such a thing, if that is her argument there are many flaws with it. For starters, being an Alicorn princess does not entail being a divine being. Sure, there may be some evidence to support it, but that doesn't make it the case. It has never been clearly stated in canon that any of the Princesses have reached a divine status.
The only thing that makes Celestia appear to be a divine being is her apparent immortality but that certainly isn't a stereotypical divine attribute. By stereotypical I refer to the 3 divine attribute associated with God by philosophers of both theistic and atheistic viewpoints. Those three attribute are, Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnibenevolence. In looking at the canon, it is clear Celestia is not either of the first two. The example most proving that is the changeling attack on Canterlot. If she had Omniscience, she should have foreseen the attack and done something about it. If she was Omnipotent, she would have been easily able to defeat Chrysalis. I will say however that she does seem to have a certain degree of Omnibenevolence about her in the series, as she is always doing what she can to see that other ponies are leading good lives and that she does what she can to promote goodness. However, the moment you have her start committing genocide, any chance of her having Omnibenevolence goes out the window.
With the above argument, I believe I have shown enough evidence to doubt the notion that Celestia is a divine being or any of the princesses are divine beings in the philosophical sense. That would just make Princesses ponies that are just more powerful then other, however they are still accountable for their actions, because they are just normal ponies. Even of they were goddesses, that doesn't mean they can just do as they please. I don't want to turn this into a religious debate so I will merely say that if there was a God, if he ran around slaughtering and butchering humans, that God is a God unworthy to be worshiped and most likely isn't even a God in the first place.
Moving on from the ethical point of view, I would now like to focus of that fact that the majority of TCB fictions that I have looked at seem to portray humans in quite the negative light. Many of them are outright misanthropic, completely and totally damning the human race to evil. To me, this idea is absurd. While humans have been shown capable of committing atrocity on a grand scale throughout human history, I do not believe it to be our nature.
I take a belief very similar to Rousseau. It is in our nature to want to care for other human beings, we naturally feel empathy for other humans and want to do what we can to help when we see another human suffering. It's society, in Rousseau's view, that causes the rise of hatred and contempt for other humans, as it splits human beings into unnatural groups such as social classes and nationality. While I believe in that view to a certain extent, I don't like to think of it so negatively. In my opinion, society is much like Pandora's Box, when it was opened we got a lot of bad stuff with it, but we also got some good out of it. In fact, in the case of society, we got bounds that allowed for the greatest parts of a human to emerge. Love and friendship, devotion and charity, many goods have emerged from the rise of society that help outweigh the bad. We develop bonds that help define us and shape us to be better people.
To say we are all evil bastards hell bent on our own self-interest and desires is not what it means to be human. I will be the first to admit that humans are capable of great evils, I would know, I've read history. However, humans are also capable of great good. We are capable of helping others who we have never met in their hour of need, we are constantly pursing to better the health and life of all humans world wide. We can risk our lives for friends, family and strangers. I believe in my heart of hearts, I believe other humans truly do care about one another and want to all live in harmony.
I often get discouraged and lose faith in this belief however, after all, all you have to do these days is turn on the news to hear about some crime that happened or see something involving hatred or disdain for someone else. It's always the bad things that get reported, almost never the good. Yet, whenever I begin to doubt humanity and it's inherent goodness of which I want to believe in, I will always hear or see a random act of kindness. It doesn't have to be large or major, it can be as simple as helping a senior citizen across the road or down a rough hill. Seeing a person help someone up after they've fallen, or hearing that the guy infront of you has paid for your drink at Starbucks. Small, little acts of kindness restore my faith in humanity on an almost daily basis.
I know we are more than just evil, malicious bastards. We all have the potential to be good or evil or something in between, and I believe that we all strive to be good in our own way. To quote Charlie Chaplin, we often think too much and feel too little. While reason is good and vital, in our current day and age, I believe we rely on it much to often. Sometimes, you have to set reason and logic aside, and do what feels right, to paraphrase Mr. Spock this time.
Those are my arguments against TCB. This is not to say that that concept as a whole must be done away with. I believe the misanthropic nature of most TCB fictions is what makes it feel so wrong to me. I believe there can be a story where humans and ponies interact, there are many such stories out there. I also believe there can be stories where humans are transformed into ponies or vice versa. However, it needs to be on an equal level. It is just not right to say that ponies are better than humans in every way, shape and form. It is just as wrong to say humans are better than ponies. Each species has their own strengths and weaknesses, and it would be interesting to see how being transformed into a different species would affect one's outlook in life. That makes for a much better fiction and story than just saying ponies are righteous and good and are out on a crusade to convert or kill all those 'evil humans.'
Humans need to be taken for what we are, imperfect beings that strive to better ourselves, both individually and as a whole, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. Ponies must also be taken for what they are, also imperfect beings that seek to better themselves and help others, as well as live out their lives in harmony. In many ways, we aren't so different from the ponies that most authors of TCB often idealize.
You do realize Mal that you may have taken a stick to a hornets' nest, some TCB fans seem to get a bit touchy about this. I agree with you Mal though I will point out at least one TCB fic that was done right: Regrets , in that one it wasn't malicious intent on the part of Celestia but the opposite, she wanted to save humanity. Still you are correct most demonize humanity or the ponies which does bug me to no end. Yeah we aren't perfect but we are still a race of dreamers, of artisans, of thinkers. For every way we have come up with to kill out fellow man, ten ways have found to save them. I like to think the ponies aren't much different.
The only thing I may disagree with you on is Celestia's power. She nearly did beat Chrysalis, and only by Chrysalis effectively cheating did she loose. And I like to think if Celestia went all out Canterlot and probably the surrounding provinces would be rendered into glass.
Oh and on the topic of Charlie Chaplin:
I think that video shows what it is all about
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Philosopher's are all about starting controversy!
I doubt my little blog will raise much fuss though as I am a small, little and unknown person in the vast realm that is Fimfiction. Like i said, I just wanted to kinda get my views out there and let people know what I thought on certain issues, this one being one of them. Like I said in the post, I'm sure there are ways in which the general idea of conversion could work and I will have to read the story you linked me to. The part about Celestia is more to just help get people thinking that we can't just assume the Princesses to be divine.
That was a very good video, I liked it
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Good point, if it was someone like IAH it might be a different story. With the TCB I think part of the reason why I dislike it is that fans have been using it as an excuse to bash Celestia and of course make Luna being a paragon of virtue who never went nutbars...
There was once I talked with a writer for TCB and what I got from him was that the fics that show Celestia and the ponies being genocidal monsters were not in fact written by "True" fans of the TCB. I took that comment with a grain of salt since there are far too many fics that go that route. I also have my own plans on how to counter those fics, mostly it involves Celestia going Sol Invictia on Xenoestia and the line: "I'm fireproof how about you?"
With the divinity question, I guess I take the middle route; the Alicorns are in a metaphysical way decedents of the Goddess Epona (thus can be called demigoddesses) but are still mortal.
I found the video a while ago and loved it. Take the fact that it appears that it is Celestia giving the speech.. that really makes me smile
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Well my friend has told me there is a bit of a divide between TCB fans. There are those who take it to the extreme (the ones I have problems with) and the ones who just kinda like the idea of conversion, which isn't bad in and of itself. Yeah, maybe if I someday get big and famous people will look back on this and it'll start something, but I highly doubt that.
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A few months ago it seemed like the TCB and Anti-TCB groups nearly reached a peace agreement before I think it was the creator of the TCB raised a stink. I know that there are good people and good stories I just don't have the energy to go digging for them. Perhaps one of the reasons why I want to write Celestia going Flaming Goddess of Death of Xenoestia... with this as her main weapon:
th02.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/223/2/d/skoll__the_sun_ender_by_princesssaros-d5aqtv8.png
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That is a pretty awesome hammer!
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There is just something about Celestia wielding a two handed warhammer.
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Yeah, the sight of that is enough to make any pony run away in the other direction I think!
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And according to the description she used it against Discord. And may have used it against Nightmare Moon. Oh and on the topic of ponification...Have you read Project Sunflower by Hoopy McGee?
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I have not, but I read the description and it seems very interesting.
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Let say that in the later chapters Hoopy takes a few pot shots at the TCB. And we also learn that Celestia is a kind and just ruler that you never want to piss off.
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Sounds very good! Sounds like a good story I will have to check out.
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You should, it's a good read and you can see why I included it in my "Ponies aren't Monsters" group.
Damn it, Mal. You and your philosophical musings. Why are you and I so alike in our thought? Tis quite perplexing.
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We are connected in some unknown way XD
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I'm suspecting that you and I were once men of thought in a past life. Perhaps, even writers, travelers, even! Letting the wind be our guide, discussing the thoughts of the era. Sounds fun, no?
Fuck, this sounds like a life I'd love to live. LETS GOGOGOGO
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Screw getting an education and getting a job. Let's go wander!
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Educations are for liberals and hippies. Time to wander the world!
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I'll pack my bag! Lets head out at first light!
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First light, indeed. The bags shall be packed and my walking stick polished against the morning dew. Though our breath shall be bathed in cold, I know that the light shall guide us to the four corners of this great and wondrous frontier. But why wait? I cannot wait! But! I shall travel to your stead, for a night of drinks and meat by the fireplace. We shall be men by night, and gods by morning!
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Our names will go down in the annals of history. We shall be the two who wandered and discovered the secrets of the world! We shall become the most famous philosophers, surpassing such giants as Socrates and Plato!
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The two wanderers of the land, greater than those Greek charlatans! The secrets of the world shall be ours, and we shall spread among the land like a river over the bed! When the world falls once more, it shall be WE whom they shall look back to, not such fools Socrates and Plato!
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Now now, we philosophers should be humble and honor those who came before us. While we shall discover the secrets of the world and life, we shouldn't insult such great minds, as they helped spark the reason of many a individuals such as you and I my friend.
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sigh... Alas, you are right. As a man of logic and thought, I cannot be so discarding of such classic greats. They are men who have great standing in history. Though, is it a sin to wish to be as tall as they?
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Of course it is not a sin. I think it good to charge ourselves with surpassing them, for surely they did not wish to be the pinnacle of human thought. They wished for others to expand upon their thoughts and discover the truth in the world.
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media.tumblr.com/5aade5515fb01d92033b78bc14362511/tumblr_inline_mi5q5bv8UZ1qz4rgp.gif
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denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw1026_buenojack.jpg
I entirely expected you to post this after our conversation the other night.
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You know me well
So, do you think I did the subject justice?
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I'm very tempted to link this to TCB peoples.
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By all means. If you want to, go ahead. I wouldn't mind getting some attention lol
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Do it. DO ITTTTTTT
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The Mongolian has spoken! It must be done!
Why have I not come upon this post before?
I wish there was an upvote feature for blog posts because you, my friend, deserve one.