18+: Genuine Discussion that will Kick the Hornet's nest. · 11:52pm Dec 27th, 2023
So. Zebras.
Disclaimers to the discussion:
Let's start with that I am not a POC and I am not trying to speak FOR POC. I am not an expert on any of these topics. Also, what is your fetish is not my fetish. If you can practice your fetish in a healthy, consensual way that doesn't harm living creatures, then awesome. I may be making a critical blunder in actually (accidentally) being racist in wanting to learn and provoke this discussion, but it's something that hasn't sat right with me for a bit now.
So, given that I'm not relevant anymore, fuck it. Let's ask the question.
Is the hyper-sexualization of the zebra culture in MLP fanfiction racist?
Because my gut feeling is yes but it's complicated and not ALWAYS true.
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Correlating Zebras to African American people isn't -exactly- black and white (pun intended), but Zecora has throughout Generation 4 of MLP:FIM had elements of her cottage and alchemy taken from African and Indigenous Tribe culture. (Not saying Native American, because that's only a single subset of peoples.) Given that the episode was focused on inclusion and not being afraid of people who are different than you, the episode of the show had a really wonderful moral to take away for younger viewers, and a commendation from adults on taking on a subject like segregation in a subtle way that the show would be commended for in seasons to come. It's a pretty commonly shared lens that, frankly, I don't -feel- like I need to cite a source for, but I am also lazy and won't. Fuck you responsible journalism. This is a pretty foundational part of the argument that Zecora and the Zebra race is a stand in for POC.
Pause for a second, because let's talk porn. Then there's the whole himbo/bimbo archetype of pornography. Where the whole appeal is that the person is -made for sex-, has generally-agreed on "sexy" physical attributes, and has bare minimum or lower intelligence. Listen. Some people really like this trope/genre of eroge and more power to them. Not my kink. There's been arguments that Bimboism is both feminist and antifeminist and I'm not here to solve that. The point is that sexy things are sexy and being able to get it easy makes it easier to write/create.
But where they combine makes a very uncomfortable combination (for me personally). My mind instantly goes to... well racism. There was no shortage of racist propaganda made throughout the years that target minorities as being stupid, or trying to 'outbreed' people. Enter... "The Great Replacement Theory." A massive political hot button that some people genuinely believe to be an inevitability and call to raise arms, and others see as the newest form of racist sentiment trying to appeal to a logical mindset of disgruntled people. Are people writing this as a trope to scare readers? An attempt to write something exceptionally taboo for shock's sake? Or is this something genuinely sexy that is understandable? I think it -has the chance- to be all of the above as well as none.
I can already see the people saying "It's not Bimboism". It's an overexaggerated trope that isn't usually based in reality. But lets say it's not Bimboism for a second and explore another option. Some folks really like the "Corruption"/"Mind Rot"/"Permanent Hypnosis" kink. Some people in this world really like a 18+ doujin called "Metamorphosis", and some people consider it so traumatic that they can recognize it by the very number that it's identified as on a popular website. I think this doujin is a good example of "life continually beating down" the protagonist in a way that makes their life corrupted, and uncontrollable. If I had to guess and speculate, I'd draw that the appeal of the kink is that there's a total release of control to outside forces. To give into temptation and become socially unacceptable, for a moment or in imagination. Hell, this sort of stuff can be simulated in a BDSM setting and provide genuine relief to someone who has to be "socially acceptable at all times" and provide a form of mental relief.
However, I don't think the comparison of the kink I described above really... applies to the whole Zebra/Bimbo/Corruption trend I've seen in new releases of the Porn section of this site. I'll reiterate. This is not to shame. I want to understand.
Let me reiterate a pattern of story I seem to see posted quite often. "[Character (often young)] goes to [Zebras that may or may not be Zecora]'s house to [macguffin] but [something plot convenient] happens and they get WAY MORE THAN THEY BARGAINED FOR. [Fucking]"
There's nothing -inherently- wrong on the face of this. And if people just wanna bang Zecora, I mean. Hell yeah. She's got a way with words yo. Look at her.
Breaking up long bouts of text with creative pictures engages the reader. Source
in b4 ew anthro
but I feel like there's some subtext going on when there seems to be MORE going on in the story than just some romance and a sex scene. It's not the simple romance shipfic that has occasional references to her native culture thrown in that I have a problem with. Or hell, even a sort of smattering how she keeps some traditional ways while blending in new aspects of pony culture. In a way, I can see those as really insightful cultural pieces that can not only provide depth to the Zebra world in MLP for the fans but also be a great exploration of Black culture through a pony lens. Ideally done by an expert in the field, but i'd imagine it's a wide open genre waiting to be explored in a way that doesn't yet have a "prominent fan-headcanon" yet to still be explored. I could very much be wrong.
Here's an example that I'd take issue with: Daring Doo is exploring [Setting] When she discovers a tribe who shows her their ancient ways. Soon she herself is adorned with stripes and finds a better way to live -- belonging to the tribe as a broodmare.
Now, let me start by saying I completely get the death by snu-snu fetish.
Oh hey another example, how did this get here?
But I feel like there's a line between comedy and problematic that's exceptionally hard to draw. And given that we're talking about porn... well, let's look at an example that tries to blend the two.
This fetish has been used as actual horror/comedy material in other shows and literature. A good example I like to bring up is Yaneemango Indians from Metalocalypse. In very brief, for those who don't watch good shows, Nathan explosion's great grandmother is taken in by a cannibal Amazonian tribe and made pregnant by the tribe and consumes her husband in a sequence that (I personally) find difficult to watch. And it was made purposely difficult to watch. A good portion of metalocalypse is shock humor and poking at dark, sensitive subjects to bring some comedy out of it. It's considered one of the best episodes of Season 2 of the show, currently having an 8.5 on IMDB at time of writing. The episode itself is based on a fairly well known movie called Fitzcarraldo mixed with a very NSFL movie called Cannibal Holocaust.
Instead of providing more examples of the stereotype of Hypersexualized Black Individuals in pop culture, I'd like to instead take a source from the Jim Crow Museum. The Jezebel Stereotype
It's a facinating read, and one I really suggest you dive into yourself. But, see, this doesn't scratch my exact itch either. This article depicts a racist stereotype of Black women being "One-dimensional sexual beings", with it's roots being in justification for slavers raping their slaves. They weren't at fault because they were coerced by the natural lust of their victims. It was their DUTY and RIGHT to perform those acts. (Interesting, seems to be a mixture of corruption and Bimboism...)
However, this doesn't exactly translate to this newest trend that we're seeing. The roles are reversed. This isn't someone "putting the zebras in their place" this is the Zebras taking control of the 'self insert' character. It's all happening TO the character that we're supposed to be "in the hooves" of. The protagonist of the fucking. It's like the Zebras are coming to corrupt all of the good innocent ponies.
Except. THE TERM JEZEBEL HAS MULTIPLE PURPOSES. SHOULDA READ THE ARTICLE MY DUDE.
In the 1915 movie The Birth of a Nation (Griffith), Lydia Brown is a mulatto character. She is the mistress of the white character Senator Stoneman. Lydia is savage, corrupt, and lascivious. She is portrayed as overtly sexual, and she uses her "feminine wiles" to deceive the formerly good white man. Lydia's characterization was rare in early American cinema. There was a scattering of black "loose women" and "fallen women" on the big screen, but it would be another half century before the depiction of cinematic black women as sexually promiscuous would become commonplace.
By the 1970s black moviegoers had tired of cinematic portrayals of black people as Mammies, Toms, Tragic Mulattoes, and Picaninnies. In the 1970s black people willingly, though unwittingly, exchanged the old negative caricatures for new ones: Brutes, Bucks, and Jezebels. These new caricatures were popularized by the two hundred mostly B-grade films now labeled blaxploitation movies. -- The Jezebel Stereotype
So, let's reframe the discussion in everything that's been posted so far, because I've been rambling and need to refocus.
The question is: There is a form of corruption/bimboism sub-genre of pornography being posted to Fimfiction that focuses on ponies being "assimilated into a tribe", converted into breeding stock, corrupting a youth or other pony race into perverse pleasure, or similar. Is this racist?
Man, Celestia. Show Runners. You knew what you were doing.
Maybe "is it racist" isn't even the right question here. Like I mentioned before, if the fetish is being executed in a way that isn't promoting harm to one's self or others. Then isn't it pretty much in the green? And let's take it the next step. People get nervous that people could take these stories and use it as inspiration to perform them in real life. If they can find a compatible, consenting partner that will dominate them and fulfill that fantasy, is it really so bad?
In that respect, I don't think so. The stories themselves have no 'call to arms' for any reader. Nobody is going to get a wank in then go grab their next one way ticket to Africa.
I think the bigger problem is deeper down in the subtext. If people want to have Zecora hypnotize Applebloom into having a hyper-realistic cock and impregnating her, sure. Okay. Awesome for you. I think the bigger problem is treating Zebras as this tribalized primative force when... not even the show really represents them that way. On that mark though, The show and comics seem to go to extreme lengths to NOT depict Zebras where they can.
Which is also kind of messed up because the wiki says the show EXPLICITLY says she's not a pony.
So what does THAT even mean? Why didn't the ponies have the same sort of reservation toward the Yaks, The Dragons, The Hippogryphs or the many other creatures in the show's lore? I could see how this "we're introducing a new species, be afraid" can be cumbersome on a writing staff -- but at the same time -- Why is there so much urgency that the Zebras are NOT a pony, but have a cutie mark and look like a pony in pretty much every other way?
I'm not the first person to write at length about Zecora and parallels to racist stereotypes. But I actually think having a character like Zecora brings more good than bad to the table for MLP:FiM. If handled well.
There are still tribes of people in the world who have been untouched by civilization, and for some people that very idea provokes the sensation of mystery and 'I wanna fuck it' (a common feeling for humans), but I think there's an inherent danger in conflating that ALL of a particular race is like that because a few are. And maybe all of this is taking things too seriously. But given that the fandom spent no small amount of time deciding what did and did not constitute alt-right imagery in the pony fandom -- I think it's worth asking the question if a depiction of Zebras is depicted as racist or not.
And maybe for some, the allure is the very taboo nature of it. Fimfic has no shortage of Taboo things and if THIS was going to be the line, then I think it would actually be a fairly poor decision to start drawing them now. Especially when there are so many OTHER taboo things that are, arguably, worse.
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I'll circle around one more time.
Is this sub-genre of pony erotica racist?
I mean, I guess sometimes. But. If that act of roleplay is someone's specific fetish.... Who am I to judge? Is it racist to be into someone of a specific race? I'd say no. But this seems to be crossing a barrier that makes it... different.
But maybe I'm just wrong and thinking too hard about something stupid and fun.
Okay, for real guys, please be civil in the comments. If yall can't play nice I'm gonna delete the blog.
I think when it really comes down to it, people find the specific taboo of these depictions the reason for their appeal. There’s an inherent acknowledgement of things being against the societal grain that turns an otherwise poor characterization into something appealing for the author and audience. It’s up to the people who consume this content to understand this distinction between fantasy and reality and prevent perpetuating further harm to real people.
images2.imgbox.com/b0/0c/w9gRPPQf_o.jpg
If you look for yellow cars, you will find them.
Meh.
My only nitpick is they seem to have become Caribou 2.0 in alot of the zerbra-centric fics. Did not like the themes then, dont like them now.
Fingers crossed people behave in the comments! I'd definitely be interested to hear what POC think as well. I know fimfic tends to skew pretty white if I remember right.
Edited to add:
An off-fimfic friend commented that it definitely does come across as a bit othering, whether intentional or otherwise.
5761091
Well when you're on a long road trip, looking for yellow cars is essential.
https://www.yellowcargame.co.uk/pages/officialrules.htm
I've had a lot of thoughts on the bimbo archetype in general. Actually, only a few. Maybe only one... That's it's lazy writing. Then again, that's just me. I don't care much for the "Meet and fuck" storylines where a character crosses paths with another character, and the female's only driving motivation is her libido.
"Oh, you're new in town? I need to fuck you."
"You need a favor? That will cost you all the organisms, and I need it paid in full, with interest, now. Shut up! I'm taking off your clothes for you. You're taking too long."
"What was your name again? Speak up. I can't hear you when everything you say is muffled between my thighs."
"You're not going anywhere. You're our new sex toy, and we don't care to rinse between uses. No, that's not a phone book, that's the waiting list."
A slight exaggeration? Maybe, but sometimes, these are written for comedic purposes, and they serve their purpose in that regard. Other times, all someone wants is a quick one-shot where they can quickly get to the action, so it serves that purpose, too. I still think it falls into the category of lazy, but I don't make every meal a home-cooked five-course spread. Sometimes fast food is all I want because I can be lazy, too. So, don't call me a hater because there's some damn good fast food out there, just like there are some great short one-shots.
I'm speaking in general terms for most of this, if you can't tell.
But anyway, I say all that above to move on to the main point. Writing a bimbo archetype genrally doesn't need a lot of in-depth writing. There isn't much room for a deep bond or character development where the character's focus is sex. Sure, there are the exceptions, but again, I'm speaking in general terms as this whole conversation revolves around the growing sub-genre, not one or two here and there that are standing out as the exceptions to the rule, but the many you associate with a trend.
With little time and word count given to characters, stories will often default to basic character traits as they do with all characters and character types. Twilight is nerdy but usually romantically backward, Fluttershy is shy, Rainbow Dash is a Tom Boy who hides her crushes and romantic interest, Ember and other dragons are sexually aggressive and demanding, griffons are competitive or written just as aggressive as dragons unless they're Gabby. The problem then comes with Zebras because... MLP:FIM did so little with Zecora and hardly anyone read the comics or cares enough to do any actual research into her character.
Is that a good excuse? Not really. At the same time, how does a writer go about writing a character the show gives them so little to work with?
Option 1: Keep her as canon to the show as possible to keep her as simple and, well, boring as possible.
Option 2: Do some research with the comics to learn more about her tribe, why she left her home, a little more about her habits, wants, desires, and build from there. [Note: Not everyone has that kind of time or knows where to look; plus, some people are dicks when you ask for help.]
Option 3. Re-write her character, but risk looking disingenuous because you rob her of her canon identity and possibly get called a racist because that's the culture we live in. [Note: The same goes for writing zebras in general.]
Option 4. Just say fuck it and write the character in such a way that clearly a work of fantasy that any reader should understand that the content should not be viewed through a serious lens, as if that were a thought in the first place.
I suppose the next real question would be the writer's intent. In which case, we'd have to go story by story, line by line, and then it's a guessing game of which author is allowed to say what based upon their [insert identity requirement here] is. Then again, that's a whole different topic of debate. Not sure how well it would go over to have writers validating their identities so they can be segregated further into communities of the "cans" and "cannots" or "these rights" but "not those rights" to post and publish would go over swimmingly. Not that we don't do that to each other already, but I think you know what I mean when it comes down as a matter of enforceable policy.
Even still, there is still the discussion of the intent of fetishizing a race because someone finds that the only attractive trait. Sure, we're talking ponies [fuck Hasbro, I'm calling zebras ponies], and let's say that someone is deliberately using zebras as a one-for-one swap for Africans strictly for that purpose.
Would such an act be racist? Oof... That really depends on the person, in my opinion.
Is it dehumanizing outside of the fact they're being personified.... ponyfied as My Little Pony characters, of course. However, to outright call it an act of racism due to race being involved I think overlooks everything else involved in the person's perspective. I can't see the same mentality being applied to someone who have the same fetish towards blonds, muscle men, people with missing limbs or other specific disabilities, large breasts, or any other special trait that can be fetishized.
Having a fetish for a certain type of [insert type, quality, identity, etc...] does not inherently remove the capacity for humility or respect of anyone in that classification. To assume as much is rather judgmental and ugly in its own right. [Not saying that's what your specifically doing here.]
I think the real problem is the perception. Once the perception of race comes into the mix, any angle taken is subject to review, and there will always be someone to point the finger of shame. Because, as you said earlier, bimbos is now both feminist and anti-feminist. A female in charge of her sexual identity and urges or partners, despite the cultural norms or viewpoints, will fall in someone's crosshairs as biased and oppressive at some point.
To that same point, when the perception is that an identity's urgency is reduced to only sexual gratification for the desire of another, it is better to know who that other is, lest you reduce your perception of their identity to only their sexual gratification.
Just a side note: I apologize for any spelling or grammar errors. Also, if any of my sentences drop off or the writing is just messed up, I've had a history of seizures and only recently was able to start typing and reading again. Grammarly can only catch so many mistakes.
I'm also not here to hate on anyone or pick a fight.
5761094
The caribou at least had the decency to not be a species that existed in canon at the time. There are a lot of problems with how the Season 10 comics handled Zebrica, but this is somehow worse.
I'm gonna step in for this one. Zecora's treatment is one the things I actually seethe about. See her introductory episode(Bridle Gossip), where she spent most of it being chased around by the fair eyed/haired local landowner that feared anything different. Her homeland, Farasi, is discount Zanzibar. For a show about acceptance, friendship, and love, the treatment of the zebras just pushes me to the edge of the fanbase to sit quietly.
my issue with it is how it's not just racist, it's reductive to the character(s) involved
it's taking them and boiling them down to a select few characteristics for the sake of pleasing the libido of some greasy neckbeard or whoever
that's what pisses me off most tbh
it's taking a well-constructed character and destroying them for the sake of one's libido
Been thinking exactly this for a long while. <_< Glad to see you taking a swing at it.
For my part, the thing that always comes to my mind is race-essentialist stereotypes relating to penis size, but I guess I see a lot more "probably racist" sex fics starring male zebras having their way with whomstever than with Zecora.
I personally have seen more stories involving zebra culture being repressed sexually than I have seen it hypersexualized. But that likely comes from my search and reading habits. I very much dislike the whole bimbo thing regardless of context, so I don't read stories that have such elements. Making characters more competent than canon I can get behind, but not dumbing them down. Perhaps that means I have avoided the stories you are wondering about, or just never had them come up on my searches. Either way I haven't read them, so I can't really tell if they are racist.
I like characters that are smart and competent, even in my porn, so I like Zecora. I tend not to think about it much more than that.