Having been granted rulership over the city of Vanhoover, and confessed their feelings for each other, Lex Legis and Sonata Dusk have started a new life together. But the challenges of rulership, and a relationship, are more than they bargained for.
Lex could only stare at Sonata in the wake of her announcement, trying to figure out what was happening.
Nor was it only bewilderment that made him hesitate. He was keenly aware of how, a scant few hours ago, his previous attempt to have a discussion with Sonata, Nosey, and Aria about their collective relationship had ended in disaster. In hindsight that wasn’t surprising; he’d approached the situation without any sort of plan, nor with a concrete goal in mind. He’d simply been intent on the four of them sitting down and having a conversation in order to dispel the ambiguities – for lack of a better word – that had developed between them.
That he’d approached the situation with such unpreparedness was mortifying to him now. No matter that he’d managed to stumble into the correct answers to ameliorate Fruit Crunch’s breakdown last night. No matter that he’d been struggling to control his emotions after realizing just how badly he wanted Aria. That sort of unfocused, indecisive attitude was the enemy of accomplishment, and it was utterly unbecoming in someone who would wear the mantle of leadership. He didn’t need to figure out what his relationship was with the mares in his life; he needed to figure out what he wanted it to be and then make it happen!
And what I want is to be with all three of them. Lex knew that now. Just like with Sonata, his feelings for the other two had grown without him realizing it. It had only come to his notice when he’d responded so strongly to Aria, and his kiss with Nosey just now had confirmed it, leaving him sure. He was in love with three different mares; one amorous and cheerful, one wild and passionate, and one tender and warm. Now he simply needed to make all three of them his, in a way that wasn’t unfair to any of them.
And now Sonata had just announced that she was no longer opposed to the idea.
Lex knew he should have been overjoyed at the news. Prior to now, Sonata had been violently opposed to the idea of his being affectionate with anypony except her, in sharp contrast to Aria’s openly pushing the idea and Nosey’s continually avoiding taking a position. Now that Sonata had reversed her stance on the issue, their four-way arrangement was essentially fait accompli. It should have been a weight off of his shoulders. And yet, as Sonata climbed onto the bench and cuddled up next to him, Lex couldn’t help but feel apprehensive for some reason.
Sonata, however, seemed entirely at ease, her usual carefree smile back in place as she beckoned at Nosey. “C’mon. Now that we’re all a couple, we…wait…hang on…” Her expression suddenly darkened, causing Lex’s anxiety to skyrocket as Sonata frowned. Out of his peripheral vision, he saw Nosey bite her lip, turning pale.
Oblivious to their reactions, Sonata’s brow furrowed. “If all four of us are together now…” she began slowly.
Lex held his breath. Nosey gulped loudly.
Sonata finally looked up at them. “If all four of us are together now,” she repeated, “does that mean that we’re a ‘couple’? Shouldn’t we be, like, a ‘triple’ or, no, wait…what comes after triple? A triple-plus-one’ll? Something like that?”
Lex felt the tension leave his body all at once, not sure if he was relieved or annoyed by Sonata’s antics. For her part, Nosey tittered nervously, her horn lighting up as she adjusted her glasses. “I, uh…I don’t think there’s a word for this,” she muttered as she crept toward them, still looking unsure if it was okay for her to approach them despite that having been their sleeping arrangements for the last several days.
Sonata cocked her head. “Does that, like, mean that we can make one up then?” Her grin suddenly came back. “Like, instead of just being a relationship, we can call this a relation-pirate-ship! You know why?” She looked at each of them expectantly.
The last of Nosey’s tension melted away as she climbed onto the bench, settling on Lex’s other side. “Because of all the booty?” she asked wryly.
“Aw, how’d you guess?” pouted Sonata playfully. “Okay, how about a relation-treasure-ship, because, um…” Trailing off again, her brow wrinkled as she tried to think.
But Lex had heard enough, the inane turn the conversation had taken eroding his hesitation. It was time to get back to more serious topics. “Sonata-”
“Wait, hang on a sec,” she murmured. “Ship…ship…oh!” She lifted her head then, her eyes widening. “Now I remember! I was supposed to tell you that a ship’s coming here!”
Nosey’s eyes widened, and Lex turned his head as much as he could to look at Sonata. “What?”
Nodding enthusiastically, Sonata nodded in the direction of the harbor. “Yeah! I saw it when I started passing out all that food to everypony.” She paused again, concentrating. “I think it was River’s boat. You know, the one she came here in? Or at least, it looked a lot like it.”
Now it was Nosey’s turn to cock her head. “You mean the one the rest of C. Shells’ crew used to ferry the ponies in worst need of help back to Tall Tale so they could be hospitalized?”
“It’s about time they came back,” growled Lex softly. He’d sent them off more than seventy-two hours ago. Even considering that they’d have needed to carry the sick and injured ponies in their care into Tall Tale proper – since its dockyard was non-contiguous to the metropolitan area – there was no reason for them to have been gone this long. But he was less concerned with whatever had delayed them than he was with what to do now. “Nosey.”
The blonde mare blinked, sitting up slightly. “Yes?”
“Go and bring River Bank here. I need to speak to her.”
Confused at the abrupt change in topic, Nosey shared an uncomprehending look with Sonata. “Right now?” But she didn’t wait for an answer to the question, realizing that Lex delegating that task to her rather than trying to do it himself in his current condition was progress; after all, she’d been the one to ask him to rely on her more right before they’d kissed. Standing up, she carefully climbed down. “Can I tell her why?”
“As soon as that ship arrives, I’m sending her to Las Pegasus,” answered Lex.
Nosey wasn’t sure what to make of that, but didn’t have a chance to ask a follow-up question as Sonata stood up. “Actually, I’ll go. That way you two can get back to kissing.”
Flushing at that, Nosey shook her head. “I don’t mind. I could-”
“Nuh-uh-uh!” chastised Sonata, nudging her back toward the bench. “We’re in a relation-treasure-ship now, so it’s all good.”
“We are not using that designation,” huffed Lex.
“Then I’ll think of a better one!” promised Sonata as she headed toward the door.
She’d almost reached it when Lex called out to her. “Sonata.”
She spun around, slightly too quickly. “Yeah?”
“If you find Aria, bring her back here as well.”
“R-right.” Making sure to keep her smile in place, Sonata nodded before turning and heading outside. It was only after she’d closed the doors behind her and walked out onto the platform that she folded her ears back, letting out a deep sigh. Glancing back at the doors leading into the station, she lingered for just a moment shaking her head. “Right,” she muttered to herself again as she started walking…
After standing awkwardly next to the bench for a few moments, Nosey slowly climbed back onto it, taking her place next to Lex again. For a moment she wondered if he was going to take Sonata’s advice and kiss her again. The thought sent butterflies through her, and she couldn’t figure out if they were from apprehension or anticipation. But as the seconds rolled past she realized that she was being silly. Lex can barely move! He’s not going to…do that, again. Even so, the silence was still wearing down her nerves, so she said the first thing that came to her mind. “So…what’s in Las Pegasus?”
“Money,” answered Lex. “River’s going to bring several of the city’s richest ponies here. Once she does, my administration will negotiate for a loan so that we can purchase the materials necessary to rebuild the city.”
“Oh.” Nosey wasn’t sure what to say to that. The obvious thing would have been to ask him how he planned to do that, especially once word of what he’d done to the princesses got around, but she knew better than to give voice to that particular question. At least he hasn’t asked me what Sonata and I were doing while we were away this morning! She felt sure she’d die of embarrassment if he found out about that!
She was so wrapped up in that thought that it took her a minute to notice that Lex’s horn was glowing. Sitting up, she was about to rebuke him for not asking her for help again when she saw the matching aura surrounding his saddlebags. As she watched, one flap opened and – to her amazement – a huge ruby floated out, surrounding in the purple glow of his telekinesis. “Whoa!” she couldn’t help but exclaim. “Where did you get that?”
She hadn’t expected him to answer the question, so she was surprised when his spoke up, voice a murmur. “The Night Mare.”
That was enough to make her eyes widen a little. “It’s a gift from your goddess?” She looked at it with renewed appreciation, watching as Lex laid it on the bench a few inches from his face, peering intently at it. “Are you going to use this to help get that loan from Las Pegasus?”
Lex shook his head, though only slightly. “No. This has a far more important purpose.”
Nosey waited, but Lex didn’t expound on it. Her first instinct was to ask him what it was, but she held that in check. Whatever he was doing, interrupting him would probably only make it harder, and he was already a wreck as it was. Hopefully he’d relax enough while staring at the ruby that he’d fall asleep. Certainly, she felt like she could; the day was barely half-over, but she felt exhausted from all of the craziness that had happened. And Lex had the worst of it, as usual, she sighed to herself as she laid her head down. Maybe he’ll realize that a nap would be really helpful…
The thought was punctuated with a yawn, and a few minutes later Nosey was deeply asleep.
Lex barely noticed as Nosey drifted off to sleep, his eyes locked onto the ruby that the Night Mare had given him.
Just like the gemstones that he’d stored spells in, the arrangement of the magic within the gem was visible in its facets. It would have been easy enough to simply actualize the energy it held, casting the spell and resurrecting a pony of his choice. Cloudbank had been the one the Night Mare had designated to be brought back, but a casual examination of the spell contained within the ruby made it clear that its recipient wasn’t hard-coded, which meant that he could resurrect whomever he wanted.
But as incredible as it would be to bring a dead pony back to life, Lex wasn’t content with that prospect. Not when he could study the uncast spell stored inside the gem and unravel the secrets of how its resurrection magic worked. If he could decipher the structure and arrangement of the spell inside the ruby and reverse-engineer it, then he’d be able to add it to his mental catalogue of thaumaturgical spells, and even without having Severance to act as a battery, the prospect was a thrilling one for what it would let him do.
After all, he’d been able to achieve incredible results by feeding extra energy into spells and magic items thus far. Which meant that, whether from learning and casting the resurrection spell himself or by activating the instance of it stored within this gem, he could potentially augment its ability to bring the dead back to life. In that case, there would be no need to determine precisely who among Vanhoover’s fallen should be given a second chance at life.
He’d simply resurrect the entire population.
In the wake of his fight with the alicorns, Lex is determined to act boldly!
Intent on pursuing a relationship with three mares, and on using the Night Mare's gift to resurrect everyone who's died in Vanhoover, are either of Lex's goals realistic? Or is he setting himself up for both personal and professional failure?
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Lex being as ambitious as always and Garden's faith in him will be generously rewarded should he succeed. Learning the spell should be doable given enough time but the energy requirements to actually cast it might be tricky to overcome. Still, should he succeed, he'll be able to jumpstart Vanhoover's recovery into high gear while also undoubtedly giving the Night Mare the followers she desires.
Of course, that would also bring up the issue of feeding and housing so many ponies while Vanhoover is reclaimed. I suppose he'll be relying on the money from the rich elites River will be hopefully gathering in Las Pegasus. Still, everything depends on him actually learning the spell first.
Moving on to something a little lighter, Sonata and Nosey seem to be adapting to the relation-pirate-ship(that's something I'll admit is new to me) rather well whereas Lex just took it for what it is. Likely to avoid it blowing up in his face like what happened previously. I bet Aria will be wide-eyed when Sonata comes in to bring her the 'good news'.
This can only end poorly.
9737477
9737484
I suspect it will end with disappointment. I'm not sure exactly what class Lex is, but it's obviously nothing divinely inspired. I recall he can cast low level divine spells but they are basically only limitly granted by the Nightmare.
All of the Resurrection-type spells are divine spells. So my prediction is that Lex will figure out at some point the spell either makes no sense to him or he otherwise does not have the capability of replicating it with his Arcane repertoire. He's not had a great track record with Divine magic before.
Can he do that? They are a) buried, and b) Severance was not kind to them.
Even if he could do it, could he feasibly do it in a reasonable time frame?
Ambitious...but probably WAY beyond his capabilities. Resurrecting (and given that most of the population is sliced up ghoul parts it would have to be full on Ressurection) most of an entire city sounds like a major feat for even a deity, let alone a mortal who nearly killed himself making a bunch of food.
Granted maybe I'm the one overthinking this and he's not planning on doing it all at once, but even one at a time seems really resource intensive, since the Pathfinder version of the spell still needs 10,000 gp worth of diamonds to work...and that's per person. Granted, such diamonds might be easier to come by in gem heavy Equestria, but you're still looking at a cost equal or greater than what just rebuilding the city will be.
And that's not even getting into the possible conflicts this will create. As mentioned, assuming Lex can somehow translate Resurrection(or worse, True Ressurection), into an arcane magic form, he's still probably only going to be able to cast it once a day at first. And it'll probably be some time before that changes or he can train someone else to cast it, without resorting to his life endangering spell boosting techniques anyway. Which means there's going to be some sort of waiting list for people to get brought back, meaning conflict is going to eventually arise over who gets brought back before who. Which just brings it back around to needing to do mass rezes, and how exponentially difficult that would be, especially given he's already on thin ice with his main source of divine power.
Really at best this sounds like a long term project where he does a few rezes to show it's possible, then gets his branch of the Night Mare's church set up so he and Cloudbank can start training up clerics to continue things. Of course this doesn't get around the sheer material wealth needed...
9737523
The higher level rez spells can work with just a piece of a body or even without one, but yeah...see my other post for why doing so on a city population scale would have its own problems.
9737542
Since you do bring up the point of teaching others... is there a limit to who or how many can be thought the spell ?
9737611
Theoretically no. Assuming he could translate it into an arcane form, anyone with a compatible spell list and of appropriate level could learn the spell. Though I can't remember if Lex's arcane magic works off spellbooks or an intuitive system like sorcerers. Basically they'd need access to Lex's spellbook or he'd need to make a scroll of it for them. Alzrius will probably clarify when he responds.
A cleric though wouldn't need to be taught as they basically gain access to the entirety of each level's spell lists as the become powerful enough to cast them...assuming their deity doesn't deny them it.
The limit is that Resurrection is an 8th level divine spell normally so I imagine an arcane version would be similar, so they'd have to be lvl 15 in Pathfinder terms to even cast it once per day(which is pretty high if you're unaware). The main limit is getting to that level and the sheer material cost TO cast it.
Lex is being a bit overenthusiastic, healing a body takes miimum energy, True Ressurection from the Idea and Memory of a person? Unless you are using Equivalent Available Mass, you have to drag it from the Aether, which if its the magic equivalent of vaccuum energy, paid back when creature dies eventually, or over normal living replacement time, for a city? Can easily take the Entire power output of a decent star for a good few seconds, depending on various efficiencies. The less efficient, the longer. Eventually the length of dimming is so great that the climate collapse kills the population you are trying to ressurect.
As for costs, I beleive the explanation given was that it was set by the gods in relation to the worth of the material. If gems are easy to come by, then a 10000g gem is going to be monstrous. A couple points of comparison in Pathfinder. Buying an Elephant is 1,000 gold. Buying a Griffon is 8,000 gold, Buying a Philosphers Stone for Ressurection(?) is 10,000 gold. But in Equestria we have yet to see an Elephant, and Griffons are so common you can barely move without tripping over one. The other comparison is work wage equivalent. Best match I can find is 1300 AD England approx. A thatcher, roof repair worker, 2 copper pieces a day. His assistant, 1 copper piece per day. The exchange rate is 1 English Quarter Farthing to One Pathfinder Copper Piece, where there are 16 quarter farthings to an English copper Penny. With 12 pennies to the Silver Schilling, and 20 silver shillings to the pound of Silver. Other exchange rates to have fun with. Such as the worth of the gold bit, and how many years of average wage that 10000 gold is worth.
Pls don’t use time travel
well shit nothing like setting your sights big but dam this is huge even fro Lex.
9737477 If Lex can pull off what he's hoping to do, it'll be a miracle of unmatched proportions in Equestria. Or at the very least, up there with restoring all the magic that Tirek drained from most (?) of the population. But that's only if he can pull it off, and that's very uncertain at this point. Still, if he can do it I suspect it would go a long way toward immunizing him from whatever backlash his de-alicorn-ing Luna is going to bring down on his head. I suspect that Twilight or any of her friends would have a hard time trying to kill/banish/imprison someone when they're surrounded by the thousands of ponies that they brought back to life.
As for his relationship with the girls, Lex is caught in a bit of a quandary. He wants to be more proactive, more assertive in taking his relationship with them where he wants to be. But even though he's reached the point of deciding what that is, he has no idea how to actually do it (in a way that won't ruin things). So with Sonata apparently saying she's on board with what he wants to happen, he's not pushing the issue...even if he's having a hard time believing that things are just suddenly going how he wants them to.
Now if Aria will just come back into the fold...
The good news is that he's got a couple hundred years before it's too late for a mass resurrection spell to bring back the dead.
The bad news is that it'll probably take that long to work it out.
9737484 What, so there's no hope he can pull it off?
9737512
I've mentioned before that Lex isn't built with a character class, instead using the class-less character rules from Eclipse: The Codex Persona. You can find his build over here, but that's a bit outdated now, as he's gained two levels over the course of the story so far. Also, a lot of that build was written prior to most of the story, so it doesn't perfectly represent Lex as he is now.
One of these days I'll need to sit down and do a re-write of his character sheet, but that's probably not going to be for a little while yet.
They used to be. But now raise dead and resurrection are on the witch spell list, which is arcane. Admittedly, true resurrection isn't (and that's what this spell is), but it's edging closer and closer to a Starfinder-like breakdown of the differences between arcane and divine spellcasting. Of course, I'm still mad about healing spells being on the bard spell list in D&D Third Edition.
9737523 I've mentioned before that the spell in the gem is true resurrection, so in theory it's not impossible. Of course, if Lex wants to use it to bring back everyone, you have to wonder if he'd be able to use it at that level (if he could do it at all).
9737542 You've correctly identified a lot of major barriers that Lex will need to overcome if he wants to pull this off. The way this chapter ended makes it sound like he's talking about bringing everyone back at once, in one huge use of augmented magic...but that's likely to be a very tall order. On the other hoof, as you noted, doing so manually, one at a time is going to run into serious issues of time, funding, and how many people he can get to help (which at this point seems likely to be zero).
Also, please allow me to nitpick something:
Not diamonds. Diamond. Singular. You need a diamond worth 10,000 gp in order to cast resurrection (one worth 5,000 gp for raise dead, and one worth 25,000 gp for true resurrection). That's part of the control mechanisms on those spells: rarity of the singular diamonds needed. (Though, depending on how you read it, using fabricate to turn a bunch of lesser-value diamonds into a single more-valuable diamond might bypass the problem.)
9737611
9737709 In theory anyone can eventually be taught to cast a particular arcane spell, but that's like saying that in theory anyone can become a world-class brain surgeon. That theory will never come anywhere close to meeting the reality.
As a non-class-based character, Lex's magic is a little hard to explain (and this isn't taking into account his dark magic or the smattering of divine spells that the Night Mare has given him). Basically, he's a preparatory arcane caster, and can learn potentially any spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list, the exception being area-of-effect spells that deal hit point damage (e.g. fireball), which he treats as not being on that spell list. He can learn spells like a wizard, but doesn't need a spellbook; he does, however, need a massive battery of magical power in order to prepare his spells, akin to a major artifact, in order to prepare them. Even then, it takes him an hour to prepare 2d6 spell levels' worth of spells.
In theory, Lex could teach another preparatory spellcaster who uses that same spell list a spell that he (Lex) knows. He wouldn't necessarily have to write it down in a scroll (or gem, since that's his medium of choice for storing pre-cast spells); since he doesn't use a spellbook, he can simply instruct it directly, though if he's teaching it to someone who uses a spellbook they'll need to go through the normal process of adding it.
Of course, that's overlooking the fact that any such recipient would need to have the ability to cast the spell in the first place. That's not a minor thing to overlook, as higher-level spells require not only the theoretical ability to use that type of magic at all, but also the ability to manage that level of power and the control to make it function properly. In game terms, that means having a spell slot of the appropriate level, and also a high enough caster level. There's an excellent article about that over here, but suffice it to say most people won't have that.
The bottom line is that, assuming that Lex can pull this off, there won't be many people he can teach it to, unless they're absolutely brimming with innate ability or have already trained themselves up to be incredibly potent spellcasters.
9737742 You're mixing in a lot of different ideas here, some of which I recognize the origin of and some of which I don't. That's generally not a good idea, because it involves bringing a lot of underlying presumptions along that generally don't go together very well when you sit down and look at them. There is, for instance, no metric for measuring the output of a star versus what it would take to resurrect a few thousand people with magic all at once; we know what the former is, but the latter has no comparable method of measurement, even if you pin it down with a particular game system.
One thing I do want to address, though:
I recall seeing this in The Apple Falls Far From the Tree, and it's not an explanation that I like. Divine fiat explanations tend to fall flat because it always comes down to wondering why the gods are so inflexible even when it's not in their own best interests. For example, why charge a monetary cost to bring back your mortal champion when they've died on a mission to advance your interests, and is a mission that it's critically important succeeds? The entire thing just comes across poorly.
I much prefer the explanation that physical components are basically shortcuts; they can be used as supplements that make it easier for the energy to manifest in the proper manner, potentially cutting down how much work the spellcaster has to utilize to make the effect in question happen. Hence, you can design a higher-level version of a spell with an expensive material component that functions exactly the same as its lower-level version, except it doesn't require the expensive material in question.
9737834 There doesn't seem to have been any indication of it so far.
9737889 It's extremely ambitious...now let's just see if he can pull it off.
9738280 Well, the spell research rules in The Practical Enchanter (which is what I'm using for spell development) aren't quite that punishing.
9738304
Forget the class thing. Components. He would need all the diamonds from across Equestria to bring back so many people. It would also be... like a 12th level spell to bring back so many people over such a wide radius. Mind, the diamonds are weight by value, not mass, so the fact that Equestria does not value diamonds highly only means he needs MORE DIAMONDS.
9738359
thats the issue
Because whenever time travel is introduced just to deal with a specific problem, it makes the story bad
9738540 The purpose of expensive material components, from both an in-game and meta-game perspective, is that they lower the effective level of the spell in question. In essence, you're supplying outside aid in order to make the spell easier to cast. What that means is that it's theoretically possible to research and create a variant of that spell (which would still be a separate spell) which doesn't use expensive material components and so is of correspondingly higher level. (Of course, that overlooks how another meta-game aspect of such things is that they enforce balance issues by keeping given spells as rare as those components are, but raising the spell level acts similarly, if not quite as strongly).
Of course, the break from reality here is the absolute nature of the monetary value of those components. Diamonds are just rocks; their "value" is determined the same way as any other market commodity, which is to say that it's effectively arbitrary (which is something of an oversimplification, since there are market forces at work, but ultimately it's still just a price that people collectively agree to entertain). There's no reason why a diamond that's valued at 25 gp in one place couldn't be taken to another where it's much rarer and valued to be worth 25,000 gp.
That, naturally, doesn't work for purposes of game balance at all (nor does it do much from an in-character perspective). So I find it easier to come up with an alternative explanation regarding the inherent properties of the item(s) in question with regard to how they interact with particular arrangements of magical energy (i.e. why certain components work for certain spells). Diamond, with their structured form, can easily be said to contain natural "magical channels" that abet the casting of certain spells. In that way, the gp value is largely held to be a meta-game function that lets us determine their relative rarity (under the much easier to overlook presumption that "the more expensive they are, the rarer they are") and "just so happen" to correspond to their market value in most areas.
Of course, if Lex wants to use a higher-level version of this spell that not only eschews using expensive material components AND can bring back multiple individuals AND can be used on the sorcerer/wizard spell list...well, 12th level would be a very generous ruling, in my opinion.
9739259 Introducing time travel purely to fix a particular problem (i.e. going back in time to stop that problem from occurring) is the classic example of a grandfather paradox. If the only reason you ever traveled back in time was to fix a problem, and you stop the problem from ever occurring, then you'd have no reason to travel back in time and solve it in the first place.
9739528
That is a bizarre way of looking at in, in my view. Like I'm really baffled. Can you give me an example of a spell that has a higher level version WITHOUT the costly material component?
Heck, Wish is already level 9, and it has a costly component.
Pricely components, for resurrections, to me, was the literal price the universe imposed demanded you sacrifice something to get something. That person died. The dead do not return. To combat this base fact, a price must be paid. Note that raising undead also has a cost, though lesser, since you are not really bringing that person back.
9739533
While I suspect that there might be some out there, none immediately come to mind. But then, that wasn't where the idea comes from. Rather, it comes from reverse-engineering the implications of spells that have been modified by metamagic feats. Mechanically, what's the difference between a spell that's had its level raised by metamagic effects, and a spell of an equivalent level that has those effects built in? The answer is: nothing. In terms of game mechanics, the two function identically.
Of course, there are some differences. I've mentioned before that lower-level effects that have metamagic applied to them aren't quite as potent as spells actually built to their level; that's because a last-minute application tends to be more inefficient than something built from the ground-up to function at its full potential. To paraphrase an example someone else mentioned, it's the difference between trying to upgrade your old sedan to compete in a race, and a formula-1 race car. Hence the difference between a casting of cure light wounds modified by Maximize Spell and a casting of cure critical wounds; both are 4th-level effects, but the latter is quite clearly better than the former. Likewise, spontaneous spellcasters still need to use a full-round action to cast a spell modified by metamagic (which is a penalty that the D&D 3.0 designers introduced because they thought that spontaneous spellcasters were potentially too powerful compared to preparatory casters – which we now hold to be untrue – and has since been leftover), which from an in-character standpoint suggests less ability on their part to compensate for such last-minute additions, since that doesn't affect spells with a casting time of more than a full-round action already.
But those altogether minor details aside, the greater point still stands. If you remove verbal components or somatic components with metamagic, you have the same spell at a higher level. To that end, why can't you have metamagic that does the same thing for expensive material components. And if you can have metamagic to produce an effect, why can't you simply create a spell with those effects built in?
Now, the game designers for a lot of D&D and Pathfinder clearly didn't put that much thought into things, hence why a fireball with the Delay Spell feat won't be as high-level as a delayed blast fireball, but that's not too surprising. Even so, it's not that hard of a conclusion to draw if you look at things like riffle scrolls, which build the metamagic effect in question into the magic item. What I'm talking about is that, but for a spell.
The idea that "the expensive material component is the price the universe demands" also has a glaring exception, in that there are powerful monsters such as solar angels ( ) that can use it as a spell-like ability. That costs nothing to use. (And if it seems like that might be because solar angels border on being quasi-divine beings, then consider hag covens, which can use reincarnate, which normally has expensive material components costing 1,000 gp, for free as a spell-like ability also.) Likewise, it's easy to find plenty of tricks that will ameliorate the cost with blood money (yes, that spell); even clerics shouldn't have too much trouble if they get a scroll of it and have a few ranks in Use Magic Device (and if they haven't, just buy a headband of vast intelligence that has Use Magic Device as its associated skill). Though it does sound like cool flavor text for a superstitious spellcaster who doesn't look too closely at the magic they're using. (EDIT: That last line wasn't meant to be snarky; that explanation does sound like a cool idea for a character to have; I just don't think that it's how it actually works.)
9739560
These examples are bad...
The fact that a powerful being from beyond the pale can force the universe to behave in ways it does not want to is... obvious?
For the rest of us mortals, there is a price to pay. Alzrius is not an invested avatar of the celestials. Those celestials, mind, tend to be more particular about how and when they use those powers, and are not known for even considering what Alzrius is considering. Perhaps the universe knows something in denying mortals easy access to what they would abuse.
You can remove somatic. You can remove verbal. You can not remove costly material components.
Blood money you say? Also bad logic. The Con loss needed to raise THE ENTIRE CITY is beyond what Alzrius could get even if he offed himself trying. What you describe is beyond all measure of magic available to even a level 20 pure wizard with their best robe and wizard hat on, and last I knew, Alzrius wasn't even at that level.
What this has to do with metamagic in general, that remains unclear.
9739576
I thought you might say that, so I went back and edited my previous post to point out another example: reincarnate normally costs 1,000 gp worth of expensive material components to cast, but a hag coven can use it for free as a spell-like ability.
You are referring to Lex, right?
Consider this then: creating a scroll of resurrection would require you to pay the expensive material cost at the time the scroll was created. And a scroll can only be used once, so the cost is conserved, right? And yet a sorcerer with the false priest archetype and at least an 8th-level spell slot can expend that spell slot and make the requisite Use Magic Device check to quite possibly use that scroll over and over and over without expending it via the False Channel ability, no longer needing to pay the price to cast the spell. And that's from a character that's quite clearly not divine in any way!
Admittedly, I haven't seen a feat that does that...well, not in Pathfinder anyway (and that feat doesn't even require an adjusted spell level!), but I suspect that's largely because the designers were afraid of abuse on the part of the (much savvier) community of players. Case in point...
What, you're not aware of the various ways to abuse that spell? It's things like that which make it one of the most-banned aspects of Pathfinder that I'm aware of.
But that aside, I'm not suggesting that Lex will be using those per se. Rather, I'm using them as examples of how the "resurrection magic requires a material sacrifice" argument don't hold up, at least as I see it. Magic, as presented in D&D 3.X/Pathfinder, is basically just another science, even if some of the ways of accessing that science tend to be cloaked in mysticism. If you can remove some components from a casting in exchange for casting at a higher spell level, there's no reason why you can't do that for another (especially since in some versions of the game you could anyway).
Because metamagic showcases how spells' functionality can be adjusted via modifying their level, providing us with the examples of why we can take the next logical step and just build them in as variant spells.
9739598
Even the Shame Whale would not cover the blood money cost of raising the entire city.
For the love of everything holy stop pulling up obscure junk that I wouldn't allow in my game to start. It's specific to Golarion, which is a trashy scattered setting with no internal consistency. You are not in Golarion. You are in Equestria, borrowing from Everglow/generic D&D. Next up you'll be pulling 'only works on Dark Sun' splats at me, please don't.
Is Lex a hag coven? Is Lex any specifically endowed magical being? No, no he is not. He is a unicorn. He gets telekinesis for free, go him. He does NOT get free raises. For the love of everything, the existence of something that cheats is not proof that you, the not-that-thing, can also cheat.
Are you going to summon a hag coven and ask them to slowly reincarnate everyone? That would be amazing. All objections withdrawn if that's the idea.
But.
But.
All your arguments still don't address the other problem. Assuming you pull this off, you will raise an entire city of level 1 people, who will spring back to life with very permanent 2 con drain forever. Yay. Still, better than dead. The ones who aren't level 1 will get to enjoy some negative, just as permanent, levels instead. That would actually impede them worse than the 2 con drain people.
There are no happy endings here.
9739658 The examples I listed were just that: examples. They were given to showcase the larger point about the nature of the rules and what they suggest about how magic works within the context of the game engine. While certain examples might very well be from particular contexts, altogether they form a basis for why I was suggesting what I was. The point I was making was regarding the possibility of researching a higher-level version of an existing spell with an expensive material component, so that the higher-level version doesn't have that component.
Now, I'm not saying any of that is what's going to happen here. I'm simply pointing out that the possibility is there, should Lex decide to go that route; a lack of diamonds by itself doesn't have to be a deal-breaker if he researches an arcane version of true resurrection (which I've said before is the spell in the ruby that the Night Mare gave him, so there's no issue of negative levels or Constitution loss). Or he could try something else; he's just now started seriously looking into it.
None of what's been discussed is a preview of what's going to happen. I just enjoy digging into the nature of the game rules, so I was drawn into the discussion regarding the feasibility and underlying philosophy regarding spell research and modifications.
Though since you mentioned Dark Sun, I wonder if Lex could get a boost if he used defiling magic... (I kid, of course; I already made some rules for that, and Lex's magic is different.)
9739717
There is, of course, the other possibility which would be arguable more tragic.
It works perfectly.
This would be the worst. You'd have EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED in that city for over a century, bam, alive. Anyone who didn't die of old age (that's a lot of people), suddenly pop, there they are. Hale and hearty and oh god what do we do now?
There are no happy endings.
9739791
I dunno about that. Equestria doesn't seem like the sort of place where premature death happens very often, at least by how idyllic it seems in the show. You do have ponies like Bright Mac and Pear Butter, but they seem to be very much the exception.
9739801
That's cool except the D&D definition of old age is not ours, or the ponies. If they died of ANY REASON other than hitting max age, it's not old age.
9739803 I don't disagree, I'm just not sure what other cause of death there would be for most Equestrian ponies. Eating too many cupcakes and suffering a heart attack later in life?
9739822
Have you seen what Pinkie eats?
This aside, there must be danger, there simply has to be.
Why? Stunt ponies. If doing this was perfectly safe, no one would be impressed. There would be no danger to be thrilled by.
See also strange new monsters.
9739886 I'd say normal rules don't really apply much where Pinkie is concerned.
That said, the threat of monsters is probably the biggest cause of premature death for ponies, but the show seems to suggest that they're largely isolated to areas like the Everfree Forest, or are unusual cases like when a dragon takes up residence in a nearby mountain.
As for stunt ponies, I suspect they're more about the illusion of danger than actually presenting it. The Washouts seemed to be unusual because they actually placed themselves in danger, without putting much value on their safety in a way that made them seem anomalous.
9739531
no as in I feel personally insulted that the writer wrote himself /herself in a corner , and had to use the power of time travel without warning.