I am fine with them spying on me, it doesn't affect my download speeds and I don't do anything suspicious online so I have nothing to worry about. I think they should monitor everyone's online activities at least once in a while. It helps keep creeps off the web, like that guy who was buying stuff to build a sex dungeon.

I also wouldn't feel embarrassed if they caught me talking dirty with someone or something. I mean what would the agent monitoring me do? Think badly about me to death?

2164475
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but it's illegal, and I frankly find it to be unconstitutional. Additionally, the government has tried to use the "state secret" argument to make itself unable to be sued.

It vaguely reminds me of sovereign immunity of absolute monarchies.

2164475
Where do you live? What's your real name? Who have you associated with in the past? Have you ever owned weapons? Friends or family? What's your email password?

It's in the name of finding terrorists. I'm sure you don't have to worry about anything.

2164475
I'd rather they weren't doing it, but I'm not able to get outraged about government snooping the way a lot of people are. Of course I'd support any measure to curtail it, but it's not the emotional issue for me that it seems to be for so many.

I have a good friend from high school who's completely gone off the deep end in terms of (mostly left-wing) conspiracy theories (though he was bragging to me about interviewing Alex Jones), who freaks out any time something like this comes up, and I always try to calm him down by telling him to imagine what it looks like from the institution's point of view:
Let's say you run the NSA. Your mission is basically to make sure nothing escapes your notice and that the US is never surprised. You want to do your job, and that organization is basically your whole world; you don't really think much about what things look like from outside of it. Naturally, you want it to have every capability possible in order to make sure you're the one everybody remembers as the best and most effective NSA director. Well... What do you think you're going to do? So these agencies keep trying to accrue power to themselves, and demanding greater and greater control and authority, but it's not part of some grand scheme, it's just because they don't want to be seen to fuck up and embarrass themselves by failing at some task or being ignorant of somebody else's plans (whether it's an "enemy" or another agency within the same government).

There's nothing especially sinister about it, but it's annoying and creepy and I'd prefer they cut it out.

2164528 I agree with this statement.

buying stuff to build a sex dungeon

Ain't nothin' wrong with a sex dungeon as long as everyone in it is a consenting adult.

2164576

I love you, man.

2164635 Heh heh.

2164640
Back to the thread...
I understand the reason for spying, but it's actually frankly counterproductive.

When the NSA tightens its security, it just attracts anger and controversy, which leads to more terrorism of various kinds. (Just look at Anonymous.)

That's the same reason attacks on high-profile terrorists are pointless--they prolong and even worsen the problem.

2164658 Hmm, looks like I found another person that looks around at the "said unknown" and thinks.

It may not particularly matter today if the government knows about all the tranny porn you watch, but it might matter if one day you seek a political career or are accused of a sex crime.

Knowledge is power, and the more the government knows about its citizens the more leverage it has over them. This is part of the reason why any healthy free society recognizes the right to privacy.

That and privacy is acknowledged as a fundamental right all human beings should have. it is recognized as such in the article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

It would be difficult to give a logical justification as to why it is as such, but then again the same applies to all fundamental rights. It is just something people need.

2164475
Ah, it's the old, "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear," argument. You may not care about your own privacy, but I damn well care about mine, and your consent to such monitoring does not extend to me. There's also heavy precedent in case law that protects the right to privacy. SCOTUS has justified it using the 4th, 5th, and 9th amendments in the Bill of Rights.

Edit:
2164773 also addresses the point that even if the government finds no evidence of wrongdoing, they now have a detailed record of your private life, and that gives them power over you that it has no business having.

2164765

Thanks...

2164475 I've never found the argument that "I've done nothing wrong, so you can spy on me" to be convincing in any shape or form.

1) Perhaps you have done nothing wrong now, but can you say that in the future? I've actually vaguely gone through that process once (though not by the NSA/GCHQ), and the amount of stuff they can dig up on you is amazing. It's near-impossible (and frankly suspicious) for a person to have a squeaky-clean record. If the authorities really wanted to nail you, they'd be able to with the vast amount of data they have.

2) As people here have already said, it's a fundamental breach of the Constitution. Now you might say that just because the NSA is spying doesn't mean that they'll be getting rid of the system of checks and balances soon. But every time something like this happens, it gets a little bit easier for governments to violate the rights enshrined in that document. And don't think they won't want to do that, because as Balthasar has said, the NSA is a bureaucracy and they constantly need to justify their own existence (meaning that they will always need to find new threats and new ways to counter said threats.)

3) NSA spying will still affect you even if you never do anything wrong. What happens to one individual person always has an impact on society as a whole. A society that accepts the domination of the government in the realm of information in the name of security is much more likely to accept further controls under a similar pretext. A society that accepts that the government can snoop around in bedrooms will also be much more comfortable with dismantling the public/private division - whatever failings in your private life will be carried over into your public life. An example would be ad hominem attacks on a politician because he has had an affair.

2165895 Finally! Someone who has common sense!

2165895

so is tapping onto phone calls and hacking into emails,

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Perps be forgettin' this part

2165895
I'm going to let Justice Brandeis in his dissent in the case of Olmstead v. United States do the talking.

if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means—to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal—would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely set its face.

Edit: To head off any arguments that this was a dissenting opinion and not legally valid, the Olmstead case was overturned by Katz v. United States which made wiretaps subject to 4th Amendment requirements.

2164475

You think you don't care. But when suddenly one day you have something they want, they can pull everything they want and use it as blackmail, whether you even did something wrong in the first place they now have a leverage over your life.

Ever heard of forced inspections where a person does not permit the officer to allow them to search their vehicles but the officer forces it and then plants drugs to justify their search? Yeah well it's kind of like that but on a now legal scale

2169745 No, I don't care. And don't you tell me how I feel about something. There is no way the NSA would care about me anyways, I live in a town with less than 13 thousand people. Besides it hasn't done anything like what you mentioned.

Now I don't feel like arguing with you. So let's just agree to disagree and stop this grinding, worthless argument before it happens.

2164475
I understand your argument, and I respect that you feel that way. However this is a matter of invasion of privacy. I, like you, don't care if people know what I'm doing online, but that doesn't mean that I'm okay with them looking over my shoulder.

Monitoring the internet is a reasonable decision, but I feel that it should be limited to areas that could breed problems. I don't think the government should be wasting resources checking how many people watch cat videos on YouTube.

A person can have a great deal to hide without doing anything illegal. Besides; perhaps you're not doing anything illegal today but what about tomorrow? Look how the definition of "terrorist" has grown to absurd proportions.

And according to your logic why, if this program is benign, did the government keep the program secret? Do they have something to hide?

Furthermore the NSA is part of a large informational discrepancy between the public and the government. The government knows a great deal about all of us but it is obsessed with secrecy. They're not just keeping secret the new fighter plane's schematics or an upcoming military operation but lots and lots of things, as revealed by some of the things leaked by wikileaks. I've heard people who used to work for the US government that their default. This discrepancy of information is not compatible with democracy.

And there's evidence that the NSA weakened encryption standards intentionally. As a computer scientist I must say that this is not kosher.

When innocent people get secret demands by the government by approved by secret hearings that they have to secretly follow lest they be dragged off to a secret court something isn't right. And this isn't just speculation, this is something we know is happening.*

*And look at what they're asking for here. The SSL keys!

2173500 They don't even bother with Youtube or other sites. They check emails, Facebook, Twitter, online sales on weapons websites, that sort of thing.

I wish people would do research before they make a decision on where they stand.

2173996
I was speaking figuratively. That doesn't change the fact that it's an invasion of privacy. Also they were spying on other world leaders. Now this seems like something to be expected I know, but if you're going to snoop don't get caught. Now the whole world is pissed off at us.

2174262 If by whole world you mean a coalition of nations (EU) with a terrible economy and a screwed up system that doesn't work then yeah, totally, the entire world is pissed off at us.

2172778

Woah calm down I'm not telling you how or what to feel. But this is why people get pissed, the invasion of privacy and the need to control something that requires to control is what scares the people who want to be free

2175965 No ones freedom is being taken away. Why can't people understand this?

2179355

I'm not saying that anyone's freedom is being taken away, however, people do believe that their privacy is being taken away

2183485 How can you have your privacy taken away when you never had it in the first place? The government has been spying on people for a very long time. Just because it is done on the internet now days doesn't make it any different.

2186000

True, but people used to think it was a conspiracy instead of being actual fact. Snowden revealed that it was very real.

Really I don't care much for it because I'm not an american. I do however hear tons of people complain online about the issue

2186267

Really I don't care much for it because I'm not an american

Then leave, the "problems" with our government do not concern you.

2188343

What? I only stated some of the issues that people have to do with the NSA. I did say that I DIDN'T CARE. You gave your opinion as to why you didn't care about the NSA and I gave the one that I gathered online from many other people who are pissed about it. Also the NSA spies on foreign countries too. The problems with your government is stretching overseas (Though not to where I am but let me say again that I never and don't care).

I merely gave you what I believe to be factual evidence and accounts of what others have said about the NSA.

2190598 You tried to drag an argument out with me (basically wasted my time) about something you don't even know or care about. That's a dick move if you ask me.

2191466

No I didn't, I explained the reason and concerns some people had over the NSA situation as well as gave my own opinion based on information found in news reports etc. You were the one who decided to rebuttal me with something unnecessary (Your home town and your own personal opinion as to why you don't care) When I was talking about many others as a whole.

You gave your opinion on the NSA and I gave mine. There was no need for an argument. You told me not to grind this out into an argument so I ended with a note telling you that the things I said had nothing to do with you and that I wasn't telling you what to do.

So I won't. I won't ask you whether I did or did not drag out this argument or whether what you think I have done is an actual dick move or not. Because like you, I don't care.

Not to mention that we weren't even arguing nor debating. We were correcting each other on mistakes or explaining the situation to one another. You corrected me by saying that no ones freedom was being taken away and so I reiterated my comment to say that it was their privacy. You then decided to add your own bit about the NSA spying on others and so I agreed but added on that now it's in the open and with proof as well as tell you that I'm not against you because I am not an American thus am unable to properly empathise with people who have their privacy and freedom taken away from them... Actually I can. I live in Singapore. Freedom of speech is like water in the desert. Very rare or an illusion (Note this is a metaphor)

And the final point I will add to this now is that the internet is free. It's really the only free place I can go on. To go on and not expect the opinions of others or to tell them to leave is silly. There will be people who will always be against you. And people who want to fight. I learnt that a few days ago and perhaps you might too right now.

If you don't want this to be an argument or a debate. Don't answer me. Answering me just makes me want to answer back. And I'm going to respect your want for like-minded people who don't care about the NSA that agree with you, and leave after this. Really I won't be answering. And probably not reading it so I don't get tempted to debate with you over something you don't want to debate about.

So please don't answer this because I really don't want to come back here. I'm sure you have plenty of points as to why I am stupid and a dick or how wrong I am or even how I'm starting an argument by not starting an argument. But I at this point want to respect your want to not have an argument and leave this as a "These are the reasons for my actions."

This really is not some sort of debate. At least that's not what I am going for.

2164475
I don't deal with the NSA, I deal with Rebel Bothans which are worst.

I personally believe that a. this is unconstitutional, b. federal government being paranoid (just look at McCarthyism for an example), and c. a means to control the populace by having knowledge of their everyday lives. If they disagree with the system and voice out too loudly, call in black ops and haul said person to a place no one knows about.

I don"t like being spied on

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