There are a lot of things that mess with comic book fans... only not really.See, there's only three real things that get a comic book fans proverbial goat, and that is bad art, bad writing, and, even though they frequently demand something new and exciting, and it's not the new and exciting that they want, well...

And, often times, they turn into this guy...

Now, far be it from me to complain about rampant complaining (he said with all the worlds sarcasm). I did it for a while during the initial run of Tynions RHATO (it turned out fine, if a bit to short), but I got over it.

My question is, though... why?

Why is it that, whenever a comic book company decides to make a big change, the fans get upset when it's not the change they wanted or the change that appeared in their fanfictions?

Now, the new 52 has seen a lot of hate (all the hate in the universe), and a lot of it is with good reason. They messed up a lot, and although some of the hate is due, some of it is equally subjective. I am now going to show an example of something that probably got a lot of hate (nah, jk... there was totally a lot of hate. Comic vine seemed divided 50/50 on it):

Secret... Agent... Dick Grayson. Look at it.

I said look at it!

There, now that I've gotten you to turn your eyes to the screen, I want you to know a few things...

1) DC has a good team on it. One of them is an ex-CIA counter terrorism specialist. So quality will not be an issue.
2) The gun?
A. Covers always lie. He may be carrying a gun, but he did that in the Knightfall saga back when he was a cop in Bludhaven, too. There's a precident, and just because he has a gun does not mean he'll be using it, outside of just for show.
b. Batman taught all the Robins how to use guns so that they'll know how to counter them and know how they work.
3) And before you say 'oh, it's ripping off of Winter Soldier', here is a counter point: one, yes a little, but Winter Soldier does not own the copyright on 'Spy heroes', two, Bucky's very existence is a rip off of Dick Grayson, so there.

That's just one example, but my point is this:

People get so riled up at DC now. A lot of it is good reason, but people hardly ever do the damn research anymore before going on some kind of blind frenzy of rage on a forum when they pour the hate and repost the posts from a half dozen other threads when they say 'how it's supposed to be' and come off as totally whiny little jackasses just because it's not the way they want it.

Yes, DC has changed... a lot.

But my question to you is this...

What has Marvel done that's been change that hasn't been undone due to fans demanding change and complaining when it's not what they want?

And better yet...

Who had the balls to stick by it?

3206137

Hey, I am ok with change...but so far, everything that has happened with DC just makes me doubt they can do it competently and with care for the character. I look at that image and I don't see an interesting change to a character or a new story to enjoy him in, I see just "Look at him, aint he cool? He's now a secret agent!"

I look at Jim's designs and I don't see an interesting look at an old suit, I just see " Look at our characters, look at how modern and exciting they are!"

I don't mind change, I just want a good story, and I don't think DC can deliver with its current staff. Please, prove me wrong, give me something to go on that will let me look past EVERYTHING that they have done. That despite the vile, accidic, and horrid work enviroments, the treatment of women, the treatment of their stories, and everything else that THEY HAVE DONE! That there is a good story incoming, because I can't see it.

3206266 Try Superman/Wonder Woman, Batman, Superman Unchained, Sinestro, Batman Eternal, Red Lanterns (same guy does SM/WW), Wonder Woman, any of the comics that take place in the DCAU, Justice League, Justice League Dark (took a while to get good, but it's now alright), Injustice: Gods Among us, Aquaman, anything written by Geoff Johns, and more I can say, but won't.

3206137 3206266 Change is good...... Change can be necessary......... But not at the cost of what makes characters tick. What makes them the heroes they are.

Before the New 52 I was the biggest supporter of the idea of a DC reboot. Honestly if any company needed it they did toward the end. However they went too far............. WAY too far.

Anyone here watch The Looney Tunes Show?

[youtube=www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnRfRPaRC8s]

That was a reboot of The Looney Tunes. Yes it was different, yes they changed the dynamic, but at the end of the day they were still the Looney Tunes. Bugs was still the sarcastic cool guy we know him as, Daffy was actually a lot closer to his original personality and was downright insane and pretty much a sociopath, the IMPROVED Lola Bunny to where she actually fit with the other crazy Looney Tunes and wasn't just furry eye candy like she was in her first appearance in Space Jam. Porky Pig was pretty much abused by Daffy, much the same way he was in every original cartoon they appeared in together. Sylvester still chased Tweety, Foghorn Leghorn was still a know it all loudmouth, and Yosemite Sam was still an angry midget of a cowboy.

THAT'S how you do a reboot. Change the setting, the situations, etc, but leave the characters as close to the originals as you can get and make damn well sure they feel like that to the audience.

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, all of them were great before. They didn't NEED to be changed. You know why? They had lasted for so long, so many years, and people loved them all the same. There was something there, a great spark that made these characters legends, unforgettable, larger than life.

New fans may not realize this, but how would YOU feel if you had a set of heroes and I don't care if its comics, cartoons, video games, whatever. How would YOU feel if the characters YOU loved, the characters YOU grew up reading about, spending money on, suddenly disappeared and were replaced with complete strangers that bear somewhat of a resemblance in looks and personalities, but were just foreign and alien to you? Knowing you would NEVER see the characters you grew up with?

Now some may argue, and I have tried to maintain this mindset, that the original is still there for you to enjoy. That you can still read about them in your comic collection. But it's not the same. We are NEVER going to see them as they were, in their prime, when they were the characters we know.

You can look at our moaning and our nitpicking, and all you see is hatred and fanboy whining. But you fail to realize it's love. Love characters who were our childhood heroes, love for the characters we've seen go through struggle after struggle. You can't just turn that off, you can't just sweep it under the rug and pretend you're okay with everything that's replaced it.

In the end you have to realize that while you may not get what we're going through, having people constantly say the New 52 is "better" is really not helping matters. You have to realize that while YOU may see it as good and great and exciting others may not. If the New 52 got you into comics then great! I'm happy for you and I'm happy you are enjoying them! Every new reader helps keep the industry going.

But at the same time for a lot of us older fans is still hard to let go. We aren't angry, we're just fans.

3206604

New fans may not realize this, but how would YOU feel if you had a set of heroes and I don't care if its comics, cartoons, video games, whatever. How would YOU feel if the characters YOU loved, the characters YOU grew up reading about, spending money on, suddenly disappeared and were replaced with complete strangers that bear somewhat of a resemblance in looks and personalities, but were just foreign and alien to you? Knowing you would NEVER see the characters you grew up with?

Disney threatens to destroy the expanded universe of Star Wars. My first fandom.

Don't patronize me, man. I know exactly how you feel.

But at the same time for a lot of us older fans is still hard to let go. We aren't angry, we're just fans.

Not what comic vine forums told me.

I get it. I really do. Change is hard. When I found out about Disney making new movies, I was thunder struck and filled with rage.

But I kept face. I did research. I saw that there were somethings bigger than me. It was a legacy that needed to move on. The Star Wars expanded universe was my entire high school, and beyond.

The new 52 has had enough to be ashamed of. And every time DC now tries to do something different, another fan will say 'fuck this noise, I'm out', but for every fan that says that, another stays behind, and a few more join up some where along the way.

I didn't say the new 52 was better. I never claimed it because I have read some of the old stuff. I respect it and I honor it in a shoe box next to my night stand, and when I read three of the four volumes of 52, Under the Red Hood, DC One Million, JLA/Avengers, and the three best crisis crossovers to ever be written, two of them by writers I admire more than most people I know personally.

But all this time, you've been so caught up in your anger, your rage, and your inability to move on and accept the bad and the good both, you haven't seen the potential the new 52 had to offer. It was a bumpy road. They lost a lot of writers, God Bless Grant Morrison, and the work environment was toxic. They lost fans left and right, but is it really loyalty if you only support a company when it's how you like it?

And, I ask you, knowing that you've known comics so much longer than I have...

Is Dick Grayson really so bad as a super spy, even after all the years he's been in the same roll as Nightwing?

After being screwed over from being Batman, doesn't the character deserve more to be Diet Batman?

I have moved on and accepted the inevitability that Star Wars canon will change. Maybe it's time you did the same.

3206137 Yes Yes and one more time YEZ. I totally agree with you! People keep shouting and waiting for change and when the change comes they start whining. Comic books fans are as hard to impress with changes as it is hard to make sonic fans stop whining about how good were 2D sonics and how horrible 3D sonic games are when their favorite sonic is often Adventure 2....a 3d one...

Let's just look at superior Spider-Man. I may have actually not liked the whole idea from the start but after actually READING SSM I got on board. Yes I love superior Spidey very much. It was a change and a GOOD one. Wonder Woman changed a lot. They made her a greek god of war and people love this book you know why? Because it is actually GOOD. Of course we can have opinions on ideas and stuff but I think it is just wrong calling the comic book awful without REALLY reading it......or watching AT4W episode

I will say that in MY opinion the idea with spy is not really all that great BUT it can be good if the artists and writers are actually good. Maybe after a few issues I will not even want the old Nightwing to return. I honestly did not really want the old Spidey to return that much...

First, I'd just like to say that I'm glad I found this thread before things got ugly.

Now to anazylze:

3206137

Bucky's very existence is a rip off of Dick Grayson, so there

Actually, you're wrong. Bucky first premiered as Cap's sidekick in Captain America Comics #1, which is cover dated March 1941.

Robin, on the other hand, first appeared in April 1940. Yes Robin premiered first, but Bucky's creator, Joe Simon, is quoted as saying "The boy companion was simply named Bucky, after my friend Bucky Pierson, a star on our high school basketball team,"

Which actually means that the similarities are totally by chance, and it wasn't a conscious rip off. There's no mention of Bucky being created in response to Robin's existence anywhere I've looked

Lesson here is check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Secondly, this entire post seems to be calling those who complain about the New 52 'jackasses', and 'whiny'. As Lunar already pointed out, that's a very broad generalization, and one that does more harm then good, and undermines whatever good arguments you might have.

3206604 And here we see Lunar learning how to properly discuss the New 52 with others, without going into a blind rage, and how to properly present a counter-argument.

Also, Looney Tunes Show is pure gold.

3206668

Disney threatens to destroy the expanded universe of Star Wars. My first fandom.
Don't patronize me, man. I know exactly how you feel.

Actually, you're wrong again. Disney simply stated that they are are no longer having an Expanded Universe, but rather a set-in stone official canon, with everything being equal to everything else, and no more Leland Chee, current man in charge of the canon of the Star Wars universe, has explicitly stated that he 'can't say' which EU stories will be tossed out and which will be kept

Again, do research before you make statements like this. I provided the relevant links, in order to show I'm not just making this up.

When you do the proper research, you avoid making yourself look like an idiot or a fool when someone comes along and proves you wrong....

like what happened just now.

Also, Agent Grayson is a stupid ass idea. We already have a gun-toting former Bat Sidekick with Jason Todd, we don't need another.

Also Lunar wasn't patronizing you, he was simply trying to have a mature conversation with you

3208145 First of all thank you

3206668 Also in addition to Hobbits mentioning of Disney not wiping the entire slate clean in regards to the Star Wars EU, they are NOT rebooting Star Wars. Episodes 7, 8, and 9 are a continuation of the Star Wars Universe set AFTER the original trilogy. Yeah I don't think you CAN reboot Star Wars without a couple hundred million people going batshit insane and boycotting it.

And I freely admit in my attempts to try and at least tolerate the New 52 I've grown to like a few of the titles more. Earth 2 was previously my most LOATHED New 52 title, but I re-read it a few times and it has become one of my favorite DC titles and it's all because of one reason. It FEELS like a reboot and I respect it for really trying to do its own thing, and every twist and turn(Once I began reading it with the right mindset) were actually very well done and kept me coming back for more. It's not burdened by the mainstream universe's flipping and flopping on what is still cannon and what isn't and what happened and what didn't.

It's a clear, seamless, and while I still do take issue here or there with some decisions they made, a downright enjoyable DC universe. Unlike the New 52 which is admittedly still pretty clunky, and none of the changes they made feel important enough to warrant an entire universe reboot to implement, unlike the Earth 2 universe. Superman in armor? Oh yeah they really needed to reboot to make that happen.

Really the Batman side of the universe is practically 100% in tact. Minus the horrendous version of Mr. Freeze, but I digress. That being said I really do like the Harley Quinn series, it's about time they gave her a series.

Point is there are far too many negatives than positives for a lot of old fans to really get into the New 52. Now I am in no way saying and old fan CAN'T, there are many that have. But there are also many that haven't.

3208252 Welcome mate. Always good to see a person word a response like an adult.

3208145

When you do the proper research, you avoid making yourself look like an idiot or a fool when someone comes along and proves you wrong....

I said that they threaten, I never said it was going to happen for sure. Aside from that, I made my
peace with it regardless and I have steeled myself for whatever storm comes. Please pay attention to my exact words.

I perhaps could have been more clear on it, but remember that Star Wars has lore to match Marvel, DC, the bible and most, if not all, of the Greek Lore. And with the new movies coming out, don't pretend that it doesn't threaten a lot of the expanded universe, especially with the advent of killing the original Boba Fett and have some guy take up the mantel because the original creator of the character didn't like the given origin. That would potentially wipe out any canon on Jango Jr.

Secondly, this entire post seems to be calling those who complain about the New 52 'jackasses', and 'whiny'. As Lunar already pointed out, that's a very broad generalization, and one that does more harm then good, and undermines whatever good arguments you might have.

Not just new 52 haters, people that complain about change they don't like in comics in general. I'm calling out all whiny comic book fans.

hmm... I should have a video for this occasion, but don't. weird.

Remember Superior Spider Man and all the love that got, regardless of how well written it was?

Those are just two examples, man.

And how a lot of fans still hate the return of Jason Todd?

Here is a link for oh so much more.

3208252

Yeah I don't think you CAN reboot Star Wars without a couple hundred million people going batshit insane and boycotting it.

Um... yes. Yes, you absolutely can. DC did it. That's why I'm here right now.

And now for this bit...

When you do the proper research, you avoid making yourself look like an idiot or a fool when someone comes along and proves you wrong....

Yeah, I'll just leave this alone, lest this become more personal than it really should.

Also, Agent Grayson is a stupid ass idea. We already have a gun-toting former Bat Sidekick with Jason Todd, we don't need another.

Requoting from OP...

1) DC has a good team on it. One of them is an ex-CIA counter terrorism specialist. So quality will not be an issue.
2) The gun?
A. Covers always lie. He may be carrying a gun, but he did that in the Knightfall saga back when he was a cop in Bludhaven, too. There's a precedent, and just because he has a gun does not mean he'll be using it, outside of just for show.
b. Batman taught all the Robins how to use guns so that they'll know how to counter them and know how they work.

Especially the part where 'covers always lie'. I read comic enough to know that most of the time, this is the case entirely. I do not ever trust a cover beyond telling me what characters will be in the story. Remember this: just because you see a character doing something on a cover does, by no means, mean that he will be doing that on the cover. Also, said cover is extremely stylized. I really doubt that Grayson will be jumping through a ceiling, flanked by bats in a room with a spiraling wall paper with a gun pointed at a guy... although a lot of that would be awesome to watch.

Aside from that, how was Dick Grayson not a secret agent before? He was independently funded by Bruce, yeah, and there might have been more kicking, but all in all, he was still going on dangerous missions, gathering intelligence with a whole lot of stealth and what not. And what is Batman Inc. if not an international and independently owned intelligence organization?

So again, how was he not a super spy before? How is Batman not a super spy?

And also, how is it a stupid ass idea?

Elaborate on your claim, Sir. I mean, in your own words...

Lesson here is check yourself before you wreck yourself.

So what did you find upon checking yourself if you intended not to wreck yourself?

3208621 Point is that you used contentious dialogue in the post.

Which, with something as obviously prone to flame wars as a discussion on fanboy's being complainers, is something to avoid at all costs.

And my source is Wikipedia, btw, and I apologize for not linking it.

And so what if they've got an ex-CIA guy? Who says he's a good writer?

3208631

And so what if they've got an ex-CIA guy? Who says he's a good writer?

He's not the main writer. Never said he was. But he's an ex-counter terrorism specialist, as well as a writer himself. Tim Seeley will be the one writing it, who has a few really good claims under his belt.

Here is a link of his work

If I remember right, and thanks to my Bradical memory, I usually do, Hack/Slash has a particularly large fanbase.

Also, you still haven't answered my question on how it was a stupid ass idea.

3208649 It's just an idea lacking in inspiration, and is also unnessicary.

Like I said, we already have secret agent characters (i.e. that work for something like the CIA), and we already have Jason Todd. Just let Richard be Nightwing. Let him work as his own hero, with his own, unique gimmick, instead of trying to turn him into Jason Bourne.

3208672

Let him work as his own hero, with his own, unique gimmick, instead of trying to turn him into Jason Bourne.

3208252 this goes out to you too, Lunar

Thing is, I think, is that as long as he's Nightwing, he'll always be considered Diet Batman. Cobblepot even calls him 'Batman Lite', and when DC demoted him from Batman, he was back in a place a lot of people wanted him to move on from, and that's what this is doing. It's allowing him to grow out of Batman's shadow, which is all of Gotham when you get right down to it, and as Nightwing, he will always be 'the guy that used to be Robin'. Now, instead of being the 'the first Robin', he'll be out of Gotham, out of the shadow of the Batman.

Also, I've never seen the Bourne movies.

and we already have Jason Todd

As a guy that has read almost every story with him, let me be the first to tell you that that would probably not work with his character, especially after stealing that space ship from Frankenstein.

3208684 How about you go watch those movies, and take a look at the finished X-Questrians chapter?

3208694 because I don't have those movies anywhere near me?

3208684>>3208672 To both of you as I think it will interest you both.

Before the reboot Dick HAD a place all his own away from Batman, it was called Bludhaven and he was his own man there. No baggage, no nothing. Bludhaven was in FAR worse shape than Gotham, because unlike Gotham where crime corruption started at the bottom and worked its way up to the top, in Bludhaven it was the exact opposite with city officials being corrupt as all hell and allowing crime to go out of control while they lined their pockets.

I have to say I find Dick's career as Nightwing a little more interesting. Ignoring his connection to Batman, ignoring his status as the first Robin, here's what his story leading up to Nightwing amounts to:

An orphaned circus boy is taken in by a sympathetic master who trains him in martial arts, the boy's already increased agility from his acrobat training aiding greatly to this, who then sets him on a path to become a hero all his own. That's on par with Batman, but different. The key difference is that Dick never became jaded like Bruce. I think Diet Batman is an unfair nickname because Dick is so much more.

Also he's not REALLY "stepping out of Bruce's shadow" with this secret agent thing. You see once upon a time after the Marvel VS DC crossover, DC and Marvel merged for a year with a line of comics called "Amalgam Comics" which merged all of there characters. Captain America merged with Superman to create Super-Soldier.

While Batman and Wolverine merged to create Dark Claw, who's real name was Logan Wayne

However there was a Bruce Wayne in this universe........ Bruce Wayne, Agent of SHIELD

So yeah not a new take.

3208791 Wasn't the Amalgam thing about... a long time ago? And wasn't that just a one shot comic?

It's a new take on the individual character, not the character himself.

I have to say I find Dick's career as Nightwing a little more interesting. Ignoring his connection to Batman, ignoring his status as the first Robin, here's what his story leading up to Nightwing amounts to:

But being Batman's number one is a major core part of his character. You can't ignore it because if you do, you miss out on so much of his life and who he is.

But now I must ask you...

Why exactly do you hate the idea? Discounting the difference and avoiding simply calling it 'stupid', why do you hate it?

3208820 It was in the 90's and point still stands that making a Bat Family member a secret agent isn't really as new a concept as DC is pushing this as.

Anyway, why do I dislike it? Firstly it feels like they're trying to compete, foolishly I must admit with Bucky's Winter Soldier series

Secondly it feels........ Lazy. I mean if this was taking place on Earth 2 then fine, different universe and different rules, but in the mainstream DC it feels wrong. There are a LOT of stories you can tell with Dick as Nightwing and this feels like those kinds of stories will be shelved for a long while until this series is over. Best case scenario they make him drop the red when he fights off the obvious brainwashing that's going on with this. Seriously his name is NIGHTWING. Blue and black make one picture the night. Red and black does not!

Also another problem I have is that he's going without a costume or even a mask. Why can't he be a superhero secret agent? Domino mask, classic costume, really Dick's original costume lends itself well to the secret agent game.

Hell his Injustice costume would work extremely well

Swap the mask for high tech spy shades and this works. Point is there is NO reason to take Dick Grayson out of the superhero game. If anything being a superhero AND secret agent opens up a lot of interesting possibilities and it baffles me how DC is just ignoring those. Then again it really shouldn't since ignoring possibilities is what they're good at nowadays.

3208854

Seriously his name is NIGHTWING

His name is Dick Grayson.

Best case scenario they make him drop the red when he fights off the obvious brainwashing that's going on with this.

That has literally almost nothing to do with this topic.

Why can't he be a superhero secret agent? Domino mask, classic costume, really Dick's original costume lends itself well to the secret agent game.

Because the identity has been outed and everyone knows that he's Nightwing now? Which is the point of him going underground in the first place?

Then again it really shouldn't since ignoring possibilities is what they're good at nowadays.

You're just complaining about the change again because it's not the change you wanted. A good argument that does not make.

There are a LOT of stories you can tell with Dick as Nightwing and this feels like those kinds of stories will be shelved for a long while until this series is over

Dick Grayson represent change. Ever since he appeared in comics to soften up Batman, that's been the case. It happened when he stopped being just Batman's side kick and joined the titans, and again, when he took off the shorts and became Nightwing, and yet another time when he became Batman. And that's not even counting all the teams he's led. He's been Nightwing since 1984. And while I still think he should have remained Batman after the new 52, he didn't and the move to Nightwing was a step back.

Now, as for him not being a super hero secret agent, aside from the fact that the world now knows who Nightwing is, that wouldn't work because, even if DC wasn't copying off of Winter Soldier (they might be, I'll give you that much), then they sure as hell would be then.

Secondly it feels........ Lazy

Nothing you said, aside from the legit possibility of DC taking ques from Marvel, connotates laziness. Please elaborate.

3208884 New codename.......................... Flamebird or something.

Also it's lazy because the secret agent thing just comes out of nowhere

3210386 I... don't think that you know what the word lazy means... it usually has the denotation of lacking any effort. This idea is totally out of the box, and besides, as stated previously, he's been acting as an independent;y financed agent of Batman for approximately 5 years.

And... I'm not adverse to a codename, actually. Just not Flamebird. That's usually a chick name.

3210632 Coming up with a random idea and throwing out there because it was the first thing that came to mind is lazy. Sorry that's just how this feels to me.

It wasn't for Jimmy Olsen

3210637 Jimmy Olsen is a bowss. He does what he wants and is twice the man any of the DC heroes will ever be.

Haven't you read Superman: Earth One?

3210643 I have................. Really makes me wonder why they didn't use THAT as a template for the reboot. I mean seriously it's called EARTH ONE! Perfect reboot name! Also new, updated, and fresh takes that still feel classic.

3210655 oh don't get started on that shit again

Although yes, it would have been cool if they had done that. I would not lie.

3210658 All I'm saying is that the Earth One universe already has Superman and Batman set up and is a blank slate everywhere else. Wonder Woman? Green Lantern? The Flash? Aquaman? Yeah all of them just waiting to be used.

Basing it around that kind of focal point would have been the smart move and it wouldn't have lead to the disjointed mess that was, and still kinda continues to be, the New 52.

EDIT: If anything it would make MORE sense to try and either reboot now and focus on it or really push Earth One as a kind of Ultimate Universe. After all Man of Steel borrowed a lot of its story and plot elements from Earth One so it would feel familiar to new readers.

3210671 True, but then we wouldn't have all the cool GL stories that have happened sense then. DC needed to do a balancing act between merging the old and the new. It didn't work out that great, but it's not as bad as it used to be.

Although it would be cool if there was a major crisis in the next few years where post-crisis and the DCnU Earth's had to come together, and then their Earth's got mashed up and they had to come to terms with the memories of what happened and what they did and the lives they had before, but are living now, which would be easier for Batman and the GL's, but much harder for Jason Todd and Superman, who were just different from their original versions, Jason having less blood lust and Superman being with WW and having a bit more fire in his belly.

3210680 I think a House of M situation would suit that the best. In case you don't know House of M involved the Scarlet Witch going insane and rewriting reality, but doing so by giving everyone she knew their own greatest personal wish. Captain America was able to survive WWII without getting frozen and lived a full life to old age, Wolverine remembered his past, Spider-Man was highly successful and famous as well as married to Gwen Stacy with his Uncle Ben still being alive, and Magneto was ruling the world where mutants kinda ran things and humans were second class.

When she turned things back to normal everyone remembered the events. Spider-Man remembered his life in that alternate universe, Wolverine retained all memories of his past, before the Adamantium was implanted, etc. And there was the fallout of when she returned things to normal she ended up decimating the mutant population by depowering all but 198 mutants.

Basically the effects were still felt and in the terms of mutants it's only RECENTLY been fixed on that end. That's a 9 year time frame where mutants were basically an endangered species so the effects were long reaching.

That's what I would want. Not all the New 52 swept away, because I have stated before there ARE good ideas there just horrible execution on a lot of them, because it did happen and it feels like less of a reboot for the New 52 fans since the effects would still be long reaching into the future.

3210708 I was thinking something more along the lines of Crisis on Infinite Earth's, personally.

It would be fun to watch a few different characters fight their counter parts from Post-crisis, wouldn't it? Jason vs. Jason, Silver Banshee vs. Silver Banshee. And especially Supergirl from the DCnU coping with her new life with the help of the post crisis Supergirl, which she needs.

She's been through a lot.

3210723 I'm talking about the cause and effects. Cause= Massive reality rewrite(My vote on that end goes to Mr. Mxyzptlk) and the effects= long term New 52 imprint on the universe. Universe is still very much like the Old 52, but the influence of the New 52 can still be felt.

Really I'm being generous with this since I'd be happy if the New 52 was just never brought up again and the ideas presented there were taken and either improved or executed better in the new universe.

3210735 I actually think that this would work a lot better in terms of narrative and lasting effects. While a new reboot would appease some of the fans, simply shutting down the new 52 like it never existed would be a weak move on DC's part and would show a great lack of resolve and commitment. I know you said that Marvel's heroes reborn wasn't that good, but you have to give DC credit for not backing down on the New 52, despite the losses in money and writers. Trying to do them better would just be redundant and the comic book equivalent of starting a new game when you haven't even finished the first one, and while there are scenes you like to rewatch, there's a lot of dialogue you would more than be happy to skip.

So yes, a combination verse would be cool, but it would need the help of Mr. Morrison and Mr. Johns, and a few others, to make it work well.

Out of curiosity, and please try to be civil or at least not do the same long info dump you've done before when asked a similar question to this, which events from the new 52 would you like to have left a lasting imprint?

Which versions of heroes would you like to stay? Would you like the heroes to be replaced? Or be addled with the memories of the New Earth verse?

3210824 I'll just put a list

Events to stay: Wrath of The First Lantern, Death of The Family, Throne of Atlantis, and MAYBE H'el on Earth.

Versions of characters to stay: Aquaman, Shazam(Only if written by a Captain Marvel fan and maybe change his name to Captain Thunder which was DC's version of him before they got the rights), Wonder Woman, Jason Todd, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Batman, Sinestro, Silver Banshee(She's a hero now, an IRISH hero straight from Ireland. Not many of those), Harley Quinn(She's slowly becoming DC's Deadpool and I love it!), Hawkman, John Constantine, Black Adam, and Captain Cold.

Versions of characters to replace: Superman(He's slowly getting better, but I'd rather have a more classic Superman), Starfire, Mr. Freeze, Superboy, Roy Harper, Amanda Waller, Mary Batson, Freddy Freeman, Orion, Alan Scott(Just because I LIKE Earth 2, doesn't mean I like the pointless changes), Solomon Grundy, Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, Lex Luthor, Doomsday, Two-Face, Bane(He looks ridiculous), Mr. Mxyzptlk, Jay Garrick, Sandman, Hourman, Doctor Mid-Nite, Mr. Terrific(Terry Sloane), Power Girl, Huntress, Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Garth AKA Tempest AKA 1st Aqualad, Aqualad(Jackson Hyde AKA Aqualad from Young Justice), Hawkgirl, Ares, The Joker, The Riddler, Catwoman, Zatanna, The Spectre, Cyborg, Raven, and Rose Wilson, Mr. Majestic, Grifter, Caitlin Fairchild, and Artemis.

P.S. The replacement list can grow as I think of more BTW.

3212221 I agree with most of that first list, but not all of the second. Specifically...

Superman: I like him enough, although I'd prefer it if he was more like Earth One Superman. I get that they want him to act younger, but I like Earth One Superman better.

Roy Harper: He's growing on me. They've traded complete clown for sort of mad scientist, which is still kind of a step up from both where he was pre-52 and early nu52

Power Girl, Huntress: Yes to the former, no to the latter. For simplicity's sake, alt!Supergirl PG is just a lot easier to explain and work with than most other origins she's had.

Lex Luthor: May I ask why? I rather like him as he's growing to be.

Orion: Explain more?

Ares: Again, I disagree. I rather like him as being bored with his job, instead of a power mad generic villain he was before.

The Riddler: Why? Scott Snyder has done a legit job with him.

Catwoman, Zatanna: Care to explain the changes made?

Wonder Girl: In her defense, I can get behind her basically being Korra as a Wonder Girl. I just wish they'd done it better.

All the others I can get behind for the most part. Although they are bringing back Doomsday, so you may want to hold off on having it on your list.

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Roy Harper: I admit he's got a more interesting back story now, but they still took away what made him a great and unique character. He was a former drug addict, heroin to be precise, now he's just an alcoholic. Not saying that's not a problem, but it's a far cry away from the seriousness of heroin addiction. He showed it could be overcome, he was a role model in that respect. He was also a single father to Lian Harper who was a beautiful and adorable little girl that didn't fall into the trap of being an annoying little kid. Perhaps the ONLY single father superhero out there and it was a wonderful thing. Now it's all gone and probably won't happen again in this continuity because Roy would be more likely to give her away.

Lex: It's more of a petty reason for him, perhaps the most petty out of all of the reasons, it's just...... I love a straight up evil Lex. Good Lex is interesting, even downright original, but I always love me an evil Lex where I can be just blown away at how brilliant his evil schemes are. Petty I know, I freely admit it, but that's how I feel.

Orion: He just doesn't FEEL like Orion. When I picture Orion I picture a hard core balls to the wall warrior. A freaking space barbarian constantly at odds with the peaceful and just teachings of his adopted father and the burning anger and bloodlust that comes from his biological father. I just don't see it with him. He's not BAD per-se, I like his look well enough, just that it doesn't feel like the Orion I know.

Riddler: I don't like his look(Stupid mohawk thing man), nor the fact he's not been put in a major position yet. A MAJOR Riddler story. That's all I want, a Riddler story with a huge big riddle that runs for a good solid story arc. I feel that while he's being portrayed competently enough he's being REALLY underused as a credible threat which is something that's kinda plagued him most of his existence. When you get down to it he should be MORE dangerous than The Joker because he's smarter and a lot of the time more coherent.

Ares: My problem isn't with Ares. It's with how he's portrayed. Yes, he can be bored of war, that's fine. However he's STILL a war god and with what's been going on with the Wonder Woman side of things I think he should have been the FIRST to get up and say

"Alright, time to smite ass and not bother taking names"

He's the GOD of WAR!!!! Let him be bored of fighting, but still let him have that warriors drive. That innate burning desire to have steel sever flesh, to break bone, to ride into battle if the situation calls for it. Have him take on more of his Roman counterpart's aspects. Have him be more like Mars, who unlike his Greek form of Ares was a war god of strategy and skill, knowing when and when not to fight.

Power Girl: I added her because I wanted a good origin story for her. I love her character she's great but her origin is just so....... It would NEVER make a movie or a TV series lemme put it like that. Karen Star IS Kara-Zor-El/L only older and more mature. She has TRULY accepted Earth as her new home and is at peace with being there. I'm not saying Kara herself is a bad character but we've seen her story so much already, not just from her but from OTHER aliens stranded on earth stories. If I had control I would have Power Girl as a full fledged hero and Supergirl not exist. At least Karen/Kara BEING Supergirl and have her always as Power Girl. It simultaneously removes Karen's muddled origin story AND makes Kara her OWN character rather than just "Superman's Cousin"

Zatanna and Catwoman: Catwoman never loving Bruce Wayne and just wants to rob him blind. That's a GROSS misreading of their relationship and a far less interesting dynamic. Zatanna.............. Really I think she's missing the fun of her Old 52 self. She was just more........... Fun.

Wonder Girl: Look having a more rough and tumble Wonder Girl is fine, but her being a thief is too much of a stretch. I'm sorry I never liked that change and I probably won't. You want a thief redemption story? Catwoman should be the go to one for that. Also they wasted the chance to REALLY do something with her. She's the "granddaughter of Zeus". Why? Why can't she and Diana be sisters or half sisters? Since Diana is the last Amazon right now I think having an actual blood sister would do her character a world of good. Also they missed another chance to do something new with Cassie. Make her powers come from the NORSE gods. In one issue she says "Hela" AKA the nicer name for "Hel" AKA Norse goddess of Death. I thought,

"Hey, she's got her powers from the Norse. That's cool, DC doesn't do ANYTHING with the Norse gods"

But no just a typo for Hera.Chance for positive and interesting change? Gone.

That brings me to Donna Troy. I get it her past is harder to go through than Jean Grey's but that's the point of a reboot isn't it? To thin out cluttered continuity and improve the bad parts? Point is Donna Troy got shafted, but not as much as Artemis did in the New 52.

3213126

nor the fact he's not been put in a major position yet

He's actually the main bad guy right now in Batman: Zero Year. He's turned Gotham into a jungle and it is glorious

He's the GOD of WAR!!!!

Actually, that occupation has been made vacant and is now occupied.

You have three guesses as to who, and the first two don't count.

Also, I can't really argue with any of the others because you know more about them than I do. I would like to add, however, that the idea of Zatanna being together with Constantine as any more than a regretted fling pisses me off to a respectable amount and that, since she'd been given the same team to occupy as Boston Brand, they'd make a much better combination.

Although that's just my thought on that.

3213149 Fair enough on those counts.

Also I didn't bring up Superman because oddly enough we have roughly the same view on him. I'm a little slower on the way to "liking him enough", but he's been fairly decent.

The first Action Comics arc is still my favorite New 52 Superman story arc.

3213159 Yeah, I don't care for a lot of the superman arcs either so far. The first arc of AC was really legit, too. Although the second volume was also good, it's not a whole big story.

But you've also forgotten Unchained, which will sadly be cancelled.

3213164 I just think H'el on Earth would have worked better as a Zod story. Why? H'el pretty much just does what Zod usually tries to do, make Earth like Krypton. Replace H'el with Zod and you got a good story of Zod trying to coerce Kara and playing on her homesickness to try and help him since he knows he can't get to Clark.

Also H'el was pretty forgettable honestly. I mean he had an interesting look to him, he really could have pulled off a good Bizarro with that look. Look at this and tell me it doesn't scream Bizarro

Long hair, no shirt, kilt, messed up face, grey skin, he has all the makings of a pretty cool Bizarro redesign. It has a very caveman-esque vibe to it. Problem being that they wasted the opportunity. Now I really do love the actual New 52 Bizarro design

The short sleeves, the fact it looks like he's wearing a Superman t-shirt inside out to make the S backwards, the fact the New 52 armor is used for the hilariousness of him just wearing it on his legs, and it really is a good look for Bizarro as well.

Just that I think there was potential with H'el's design is all I'm saying.

3218744 Flash Fact: H'el was originally a redesigned Bizarro, but eventually, the changes to his design and character got so great that they decided to make him a new character.

And yes, there was potential. I think he's more of a Kryptonian Lex Luthor than a Zod knock off, though.

3219005 I knew that. The fact he had a burned on backwards S-shield for most of his original appearances was evidence to that.

Zod's main goal is usually taking over Earth and turning it into some form of Krypton, whether it be enslaving everyone and FORCING them to make it like Krypton in terms of culture, appearance, and so on, or like was seen in Man of Steel terraforming it to make it an exact copy of Krypton down to the most basic level.

H'el? Yeah same thing. Not saying he's 100% LIKE Zod, not enough ego, but really his goals are so similar you could swap him out with Zod and not miss much.

3219029 Only H'el was working on more complex planning, like using time travel to set up three alt. time lines to seperate the supers, Man, Girl and Boy so that they all couldn't wail on him at the same time, making it a lot easier for him to take over Krypton.

I like his character, but I kind of think they used to him to soon after his first appearance. At any rate, you have to admit that he seems to be a medium between Lex and Zod.

3219032 Yeah but still he just doesn't seem that special to me honestly. He's like they threw Lex, Zod, and Bizarro into a blender and he was the result. Not saying he's a BAD character just that he didn't really leave much of an impact on me.

3219080 I love how we derailed this thread.

two more questions:

1) We see that new 52 Cliana shipps fairly well. They have decent enough chemistry and everything, so how do you think her and Earth One Clark would work out?

2) New 52 Kara Zor-El and Jason Todd: Would you ship it? And do you think it would work?

3219108 Well the initial stuff was pretty heavy and boring so it's only logical things took a more interesting turn.

1: Well I think they'd certainly at least TRY to give it a go, but I think Earth One Clark is too close to classic Superman. He's just more down to Earth and he knows it. Not saying New 52 doesn't have his moments, but when you get right down to it EO Clark just has more of that "Farmboy from Kansas" feel to him in a lot of ways. Even his costume was made for him by his parents, the S even being something they came up with. I could see him and Diana being close friends, but that's about it.

2: Nope. I'd ship her and Mon-El though.

3219187 Well, I'm talking strictly the new 52 versions here. Obviously, it wouldn't work in the old verse because a) Kara is unusually peppy for a girl who's entire life exploded in the wake of her departure from said life and hasn't had a bad time of it like her new version, and b) pre 52 Jason Todd was an asshole, plain and simple.

I actually did a post on Tumblr about why I think it would work.

Lemme get it...

There is a reason why I ship Supergirl and the Red Hood (specifically the new 52 versions), and it is mostly built up from mutual tragedy. See, while the writing in a lot of places hasn't been particularly strong in her book, one thing it did get right is the fact that Supergirl would have a lot of issues readjusting to Earth, and not just with power and fitting in like in the DCA movie. Her planet is straight up gone. Everyone she ever knew and loved is dead, so it makes sense that she’d have a lot of issues adjusting. Then we have to consider the fact that she’s had almost nothing but bad stuff happen to her, from a dead planet, her house trying to kill her, her dad is now Cyborg Superman, she’s been experimented on and manipulated, all culminating in her becoming a Red Lantern. Our girl Kara has not had a fun time of it.

Then we take Jason Todd. The renegade robin. Nightwing with both a sharper tongue and more barbed teeth. From a drug abuse mom that he still cared for and loved till the day she OD’d, to being betrayed by his actual mom (bitch) and being beaten by the Joker, going on a bad guy killing spree, going crazy after Bruce died and then finally joining up with the outlaws. He’s had his own fair share of issues. Now, this is where I really think that they shine:

Jason is super protective of women and girls and he always has been. Personal head canon dictates that’s why he never went after the batgirls, while it also it bing respect more than anything else in Barbara’s case. As well, it has often been observed that a person who helps someone else going through a lot of issues often helps find some sort of completion with their own struggles, and arguably, Supergirl has had a much worse time of it than Jason. He can relate to her and, although whether or not he’d steer her away from how he and the outlaws do things or not is up in the air, I think she’d appreciate that more than anything else. It’s also been noted that Kara, thank’s to the H’el on Earth arc, is A) a terrible judge of character, or B) falling into the group of girls that are intrigued immensely by the bad boy arc type, the difference being that he (Again) respects women and, regardless of whether or not they need it, he would bring down heaven and earth if you’re bad to them.

TL:DR;, I think it works because Kara is going through hell and Jason can relate and will bust through the wall like kool-aid man to protect her.

Also, this panel from the Batman/Superman annual:

3219245 Odd

3219617 But you have to admit, with everything she's been through lately, having a guy that can relate to her like that while also being protective would be good for her.

3219809 I ship Supergirl with only one Bat Family member............................................ Stephanie Brown.

Look at how cute they are!!!!

Okay this shipping came up due to a one shot comic a couple years back before the New 52 and the copious amounts of cute pictures people made with them.