Warhammer 40k is long standing franchise within science fiction, often trumpeted as one of the most powerful settings of them all. But however how powerful is it really? Do we blow its power out of proportion?

Now this is not discussing the Warp or daemons or psychic powers, that is for a seperate arguement. This for the technology and military capabilities of the 40k universe, focusing on the Imperium of Man.

Resources and scale:
This is one of 40k's biggest advantages but also a pretty big weakness as well. The Imperium of Man is massive with well over a million worlds under its rule. Estimates of the Imperium's population are in numbers that we can hardly process. The amount of troops entering service in the guard and dying on any given day is so difficult to track that the Administratium, the Imperium's all powerful pencil pushers don't even bother tracking those numbers. A minor Crusade within the Imperium can include millions of ground troops and thousands of ships.

However this size is also the Imperium's weakness as it has to spread out its forces to counter various threats across the Galaxy. Power in the Imperium is very decentralized as it can be seen as more of a confederacy or a feudal system than a typical empire. Whole sectors could rebel and the Imperium might not know about it for years by which time the rebels are well entrenched and prepared for a large scale war.

This sheer amount of resoures can also backfire on the Imperium in that more than a few Imperial Commanders have little regard for the lives of the men under their command and will simply throw them forwards in massed assaults and try to crush the enemy under sheer weight of numbers. To clarify the least valuable thing in 40k is apperantly a human life as there are literally quadrillions of replacements waiting in the wings in theory. I must repeat this, in theory.

Because of logisitical, communcation, and navigation probelms the Imperium only occasionally seems to be able to throw around its weight properly. Most campaigns might see only a few regiments of guardsmen deployed and a handful of ships in support. It should also be noted that 85% of the Imperial Guard is often tied down dealing with local rebellions and internal affairs within the Imperium.

Technology scale vs stagnation:
Imperial Technology is mostly under the control of the Adeptus Mechanicus who are often argued as being half of the problem that faces the Imperium of Man. The Adeptus Mechanicus is essentially a client state of the Imperium of Man, with its own army and government. The Adeptus Mechanicus worships technology and this may be its biggest problem. First off the Adeptus Mechanicus is deeply rooted in tradition and rituals, they are after all also known as the Machine Cult. They are feircly resistant to new developments or invovation, to the point where anyone who creates something new often has to pass it off as an older design that they rediscovered.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is also very fractious, with Forge World's jealously guarding their knowledge of technology even from eachother. This means that if the Imperium loses a Forge World that makes a specific type of vehicle and they are the only Forge World that makes that vehicle then the designs of that particular craft are essentially lost possibly forever.

To clarify 40k technology is insane in its scale, massive war walkers like Titans, super heavy tanks like the Baneblades, warships that make most Star Wars ships suddenly have an inferiority complex in terms of size. To clarify an Imperial frigate is about the same size as and Imperial I-class Star Destroyer. The Imperial Navy is known for its ability to preform Exterminatus, the complete destruction of all life on a planet.

Battlefleet Gothic actually notes in its fluff that its models are not actually fighting on a scale realistic to ships of the setting. Many books note that playing on realstic scale would require much larger fields of play suggesting that Imperial ships are able to fight at ranges typically ascribed to Star Trek and Star Wars.

However this is where 40k drops the ball a bit by simply not explaining in math terms how powerful any of its equipment is really. An Imperial Guard Las Gun is described as being about as powerful as 50 cal. bullet and yet normal humans survive las shots all of the time. Also in the few cases where numbers are given they are often confusing or provide little valuable data. The Leman Russ for example has a 120mm battle cannon and and having about 150mms of armor on average though some sections feature 200mm of armor. This doesn't sound to bad until you realize that the armor on the Russ would have been outclassed in the Early Cold War. This could be because the Imperium may be measuring in Plasteel which we have no idea how strong is. Another case is a claim that Imperial Stub pistols a muzzel velocity of 400 fps which is about equal to most airsoft guns.

Tactics and Force Organization:
The Imperium's military forces are organized into several groups, each with a dedicated role. Each organization is very good at its job most of the time but each group has in built weaknesses. The PDF is woefully inexperinced, the Space Marines are split into chapters which are typically limited to about 1,000 marines, the Imperial Guard has no ships and few aircraft, the Sisters of Battle have little in the way of heavy vehicles, and so on.

This is an in built flaw designed to prevent any one organization from causing damage on the same scale as the Horus Heresy. For the most part it has worked, though it hampers the Imperium's ability to cooridnate its forces effectively. Interservice politics and rivalries in the Imperium can also turn bloody, indeed into out right open warfare between groups that should be allies.

Then there is matter of tactical doctrines which can vary greatly from organization to organization. However one notable fact in this is that few Imperial organizations can use combined arms tactics. There is also occasional moments of suicidally stupid tactics being employeed by senior commanders who are quiet willing to throw away the lives of their troops to achieve their objectives. In other cases flat out zealotry can result in suicidal mass assaults that just get everyone killed.

On the plus side this is not a universal problem as some forces actually use the stuff between their ears as more than just a convenient spot to put their helmet. The stand out commanders within the Imperium are excellent officers and leaders though the fluff seems to indicate they are the expection rather than the rule.

Conclusion:
In an arena style engagement between the Imperium of Man and any other scifi faction, where the Imperium can bring its full military and industrial might to the fray, the Imperium would crush almost all of the competition. However in the grand scheme of things it is unclear how much of an edge 40k would have on the smaller scale and also accounting for the Imperium's internal problems and constant threats from other factions they would have limited ability to respond to a new threat.

A good example of this is the Tau Empire. Though the Tau Empire is far smaller and weaker than the Imperium it has superior technology. Its true saving grace from the Imperium however is the fact that the Imperiums attention was pulled away to multiple fronts and the emergent threat of the Tyranids and basically had to halt its offensives against the Tau.

5660750
I don't know about the ship sizes, other sources put different sizes and the whole thing is a mess

The basic "lasgun rifle" that the typical 40K mook trooper carries can punch through inches of solid steel, repeatedly, at full auto, for minutes. Its power cells are so efficient, laying them out in the sun or even throwing them in a fire are valid ways to recharge them. This is the weakest, most basic kind of gun in the setting, so much so that players call them "flashlights." It literally only goes up from there.

The power levels in that setting are insane and half a company of Imperial Guard could probably conquer half this planet from sheer tech advantage.

5660750

Though the Tau Empire is far smaller and weaker than the Imperium it has superior technology.

Might be because GW put in some actual effort when they thought up Tau tech.

It doesn't, anyway. It has fancier tech and it equips its troopers better on a 1:1 level, but in direct comparison between what the empires are capable of fielding? The Tau lose, massively. The Imperium has a 20,000 year headstart on them and it shows. It's a lot like the Eldar-Human relationship in that sense, except less pronounced.

5660750

The Imperial Navy is known for its ability to preform Exterminatus, the complete destruction of all life on a planet.

It should be noted that they need specialized equipment for this and do NOT use standard shipboard weaponry for this kind of operation.

Even though it makes no sense to use specialized equipment to liquify the crust when a combination of standard ship weapons or setting a sufficiently large asteroid on a collision course with the planet would do the job.

Then again, I've never been able to get a straight answer on what 40k shipboard weapons are capable of beyond 'splitting an asteroid'. Which is nowhere near as impressive as it sounds as most asteroids are just loosely bound rubble.

5660901
I've read somewhere that a sufficiently high-powered lance strike in one area is capable of penetrating the crust into the inner mantle, sufficiently to basically simulate a supervolcano, which is one of the ways they wipe out planets.

So instead of "asteroid" read "sizeable planetoid," I guess.

5660912

I've read somewhere that a sufficiently high-powered lance strike in one area is capable of penetrating the crust into the inner mantle, sufficiently to basically simulate a supervolcano, which is one of the ways they wipe out planets.

There is a serious lack of consistency in that franchise. If they can do that, why do they need dedicated planetary demolition equipment?
Either that or some of the books are actually full of Imperial propaganda.

So instead of "asteroid" read "sizeable planetoid," I guess.

Well, large enough that it's actually a solid mass instead of a collection of rubble, but not so large that it can be classified as a dwarf planet.

5660920

There is a serious lack of consistency in that franchise. If they can do that, why do they need dedicated planetary demolition equipment?

Either that or some of the books are actually full of Imperial propaganda.

Dunno, really. Not all planets have a liquid mantle for one, I guess, and virusbombs leave you with a dead, but geologically stable and mostly usable planet once you're done with it. I guess it's for reasons of practicality. Only the really big capital ships have that kind of high-powered laser lance.

But yeah, consistency always comes behind "rule of cool" in that franchise. Always. That's not entirely a bad thing, though. I'm looking forward to Dawn of War 3. I hear Gorgutz 'Eadunta will be back.

5660920

There is a serious lack of consistency in that franchise.

40K is Science Fantasy not Science Fiction but both are in Speculative Fiction, i think it gets a pass on consistency.

Not sure why I said that though...

5660926

Not all planets have a liquid mantle for one

If you want to be technical, the only known planets with liquid 'mantels' would be the gas giants*, but that depends upon how you define the atmosphere of a gas giant.
Earth's mantel is solid, but the rock is under so much heat and pressure that it is in a plastic state. Basically, our mantel has the consistency of silly putty or play-doh.

virusbombs leave you with a dead, but geologically stable and mostly usable planet once you're done with it.

IIRC, Virus bombs eat away at inorganic materials too. Either that or they render the planet uninhabitable for a significant period of time.

I guess it's for reasons of practicality. Only the really big capital ships have that kind of high-powered laser lance

Point taken.

*Recent evidence indicates that Pluto may have a liquid ocean under it's crust, so it too would have a liquid 'mantel'. But this needs verification. Plus, it's still a dwarf planet

5660930
Probably because most people can't tell sci-fantasy (Star Wars sans Midi-chlorians, Warhammer 40k, etc.) from sci-fi (Star Trek, Babylon 5, etc.).

5660936 That's exactly what I intended to say...I actually forgot while typing.

5660948
Still doesn't excuse the lack of internal continuity though. Only series with significant amounts of time-travel (Doctor Who, etc.) can get away with that.

5660950

5660931

Earth's mantel is solid, but the rock is under so much heat and pressure that it is in a plastic state. Basically, our mantel has the consistency of silly putty or play-doh.

I know the viscosity of magma is kind of insane, but it's still rocks and metals heated past their melting point, an aggregate state which we call "fluid" even if it's superviscous, by the fact that its molecules are only loosely bound to each other and that the resulting state of matter flows with gravity if given the opportunity. It's a liquid, even if it doesn't act like terribly much of one sometimes.

*Recent evidence indicates that Pluto may have a liquid ocean under it's crust, so it too would have a liquid 'mantel'. But this needs verification. Plus, it's still a dwarf planet

Oceans do not count as part of the mantel by the fact that they're not really made of the primary composing substance of the planet(oid.) It might have liquid water, but the planet is still solid. Yes, you're nitpicking, but to the point where you're kind of starting to misuse the terms.

5660955
I'd argue that the mantel is closer to a highly plastic solid than a highly viscous liquid. Though I don't think either of us have the appropriate knowledge in rheology to answer this question.
Heh, anyone else reading this would think this is just a load of technobabble.

Oceans do not count as part of the mantel by the fact that they're not really made of the primary composing substance of the planet(oid.) It might have liquid water, but the planet is still solid. Yes, you're nitpicking, but to the point where you're kind of starting to misuse the terms.

Ocean was the wrong choice of word. While from our perspective a body of water would be an ocean, on a world made mostly of various ices it would not be unreasonable to say that it has a mantel made of water. A molten ice mantel with an icy crust to our molten rock mantel with rocky crust.

5660981

I'd argue that the mantel is closer to a highly plastic solid than a highly viscous liquid. Though I don't think either of us have the appropriate knowledge in rheology to answer this question.

I sure have the necessary background in chemistry to say so, though. I've never seen molten rock referred to as anything but a liquid. From the chemical perspective, it is.

Ocean was the wrong choice of word. While from our perspective a body of water would be an ocean, on a world made mostly of various ices it would not be unreasonable to say that it has a mantel made of water. A molten ice mantel with an icy crust to our molten rock mantel with rocky crust.

I suppose you could futz around with definitions until that fits, but since I'm not a geologist or astrophysicist, I can't really comment on what they'd think about that. I might ask if I run into one again these days.

5660786
That doesn't exactly match up with people surviving such wounds, including normal humans not wearing flak armor. As GW says everything is canon but not everything is true.

Also half a company conquering half the planet is laughable. Infantry against cruise missiles, air strikes, artillery, mortars, heavy machine gun fire? They would be lucky to conquer a town.

5660804
You mean thought beyond make another box?

5660984

I sure have the necessary background in chemistry to say so, though. I've never seen molten rock referred to as anything but a liquid. From the chemical perspective, it is.

I think that may have been a recent change in some geology text books/courses.

I suppose you could futz around with definitions until that fits, but since I'm not a geologist or astrophysicist, I can't really comment on what they'd think about that. I might ask if I run into one again these days.

Too bad you don't know any exogeologists. That'd probably be the best way to get an answer.

5661003

That doesn't exactly match up with people surviving such wounds, including normal humans not wearing flak armor.

You'd be surprised what a person can survive, especially from a weapon that intrinsically cauterizes every wound it makes.

And honestly, if you're going to go "I don't care if the rulebooks and in-setting novels say so, that doesn't mean it's true" no reasonable debate is possible about this.

IT'S THE BANEBLAAAAAAADE

5661006

I think that may have been a recent change in some geology text books/courses.

Might not have filtered down to me yet, then. Or it's specialized nomenclature that really only applies within the field of geology, that's a reasonable possibility. We don't always agree on everything between fields.

Too bad you don't know any exogeologists. That'd probably be the best way to get an answer.

Yeah, I'm afraid my university doesn't have that particular faculty. I might ask around for one, but I don't think it's really worth it for a minor quibble like that.

5661029
True, that was in a course related to the engineering geology degree program. So it could be only that field that refers to the mantel as a highly plastic solid instead of a highly viscous liquid.

Point taken. Even if there's pleasure to be gained in useless knowledge, there are practical limits to the effort that should go into it.

5661003 No.

They actually tried to be more Science Fiction and less Science Fantasy with the Tau, it helps explain how they could beat some of the tech the imps throw at them when (kinda)real world physics goes up against clearly made up nonsense.

Also.

Arch Warhammer said it best IMO, "the Tau are in a WW2 Germany problem" constantly creating more advanced weapons, rather than making good enough weapons meaning everything is basically phased out before it leaves the experimental stage. - Historically inaccurate comment but I think it fits the Tau.

5661029 That vid is EPIC!

5661051
Then you'll love this one:

SCREAM TO THE EARTH!

5661049

There's also the fact that armor angling is still a thing. The Leman Russ has some neat angling on its frontal plate; so does the BEEEIIIIIIINEEEEBLAAAAAAADE!

5661058 That was created for The Greater Good!

5661064
It was created because this quiet offends Slaanesh, thank you very much.

5661067 The Ethereals disagree, demons do not exist!

5661081

That I'm not sure of. My best guess is that it'd mean there's more to punch through due to how armor angling works, which means that more energy would be required the better the armor is angled, combined with the durability it already possesses due to thickness.

5661060

The Leman Russ has some neat angling on its frontal plate

Do not defend the indefensible, The Leman Russ is a bad Tank even by fantasy standards!

5661087
Which still makes it ludicrously better than anything we have... at least fluffwise. That thing can all but tapdance on the spot - and it's actually just a modified harvesting vehicle. The tech in this setting is kind of ridiculous.

5661092
5661094
Its an okay vehicle but that's it, Tau tech is #1!

5661087

One thing- I can't read French. I can tell it's French because of how the Russ is referred to as a "Char D' Assault," which is in line with a series of French tanks including the Char B1 Bis heavy tank.

Also, it's likely that those 200mm of armor are on that front plate, which has nice angling at minimum. However, I have to admit the 45 mm is very damn iffy, even for bottom and rear plating.

5661088

That is a very good point.

5661102

Another thing- I haven't seen many variations of Tau vehicles- no real "workhorse" hull. The Russ has the advantage of an incredible shipload of different types, which makes it similar to the M4 Sherman, which has the most variations of any armored vehicle in real life.

5660901
Oh but you see, exterminate methods are varied for a reason.

Virus bombs are dropped to reduce any biological organisms into a mush that emits a highly flammable gas as a side effect, which is then ignited, burning away the atmosphere. Best used to deny Tyranids or Chaos a world.

Orbital Lance bombardment and cyclonic torpedos are used to render a planet uninhabitable by anything. The Lance's pierce and weaken the crust, and then a cyclonic torpedos is launched deep into the planet, destabilizing the core and causing the planet to be lost forever. Usually reserved for Necrons and to destroy a world too far gone into the clutches of Chaos.

5661114

Actually, the Imperium stopped using Virus Bombs for the most part both because they empower the forces of Nurgle and the rise of the Cyclonic Torpedo.

5660920 that's deliberate and it's also the in universe reason for each editions retcons. A Imperial Ship might be able to shatter a planet's crust... or it could be merely propaganda. Even it's histroy is being changed as there is department that basically rewrites history. There is also the Guardsmen uplifting banner...

5661119

*Primer.

5661110 Consider that the Tau have advanced Rail gun tech and then think on how in canon an ordinary Tau pulse rifle utilities pulsed induction fields to propel lethal micro-bursts of plasma over astonishing ranges.

Imps are salty for a reason, all the armor and variations of a Leman Russ mean next to nothing in the face of Tau firepower and it makes me laugh.

The Hammerhead is our Leman Russ.

5661137

Consider that the Tau have advanced Rail gun tech and then think on how in canon an ordinary Tau pulse rifle utilities pulsed induction fields to propel lethal micro-bursts of plasma over astonishing ranges.

This is actually surprisingly conceptually primitive. Except for the part about a magnetically contained plasma ball that retains coherence over meaningful distances? We could build this today.

5661140 In canon it beats imp armor easy.
So...That's a bonus, right?

5661142
Orcs can chop through IG armor with random bits of metal tied to a stick, so I would take that with a grain of salt.

But yeah, as mentioned, in a 1:1 sense, a typical Tau trooper is equipped way better than the typical IG trooper. It's the tech ceiling that's lower, mostly. That and they're like a millionth the size of the Imperium and survive mostly by virtue of not being worth stomping with a proper war machine, but that's a fluff thing.

5661149 GG to the Imperium then.

5661137

Alright, the range of the railguns is a fair point. Though I'm pretty damn sure a standard pulse rifle will do fuckall to an MBT.

Even so, there's what you pointed out about the Tau's issue being the same as Nazi Germany's- they keep making new things that get outclassed by new things that get outclassed by new things. It'll eat at their resources as much as keep them from finally settling down and working off of an already effective design- the Hammerhead in this case. It's a great vehicle, I won't lie. It's got good angling, a small/low frame that makes it harder to hit, excellent gun depression, and it's magnitudes more maneuverable due to its ability to glide. The main issue is that it's always outnumbered and is more frail/vulnerable up close.

Germany kept making new and complicated vehicles (i.e. the Tiger and Panther) while the Allies stuck with a highly adaptable design (i.e. the Sherman.) If the Tau keep doing this they're gonna have a small number of strong vehicles to the utter ocean of decent and/or average vehicles the Imperium has. This creates the possibility of a Battle of Prokhorovka scenario- in which the Nazi tanks were outnumbered by a shocking margin- reports from the German side reported 163-249 tanks available for the battle. Compare that to the minimum of 650 used by the Soviets. A German veteran once said that for each T-34 you killed there were 200 behind it.

In this case, I imagine our Prokhorovka scenario would involve a larger amount of vehicles for both sides- maybe 1,000-1,500 or so for the Tau, considering the fact that they do have more resources than the Nazis. The Imperium, being the Soviets for this, would likely have triple to quintuple that number, perhaps even more due to their vast resource pool and tactics of throwing more shit at everything most of the time. Don't forget the infantry factor either.

That's a point where almost no amount of range will save you. Even if the Tau vehicles don't experience breakdowns as some vehicles did during Prokhorovka, they're horribly outnumbered and outgunned to a truly ridiculous degree. I don't see them pulling a victory out of this unless they use WMDs on a scale akin to a miniature Exterminatus. Considering how the Imperial Navy would definitely be in orbit and dueling with the Tau Navy as well...

... Holy shit I went full nerd mode. I mean... Wow. Did I go too far?

5661168

Ah. Well, the D' Assault part clicked for me. I'm a tank buff and WWII nerd as well, so I saw the words "Char D' Assault" and immediately associated it with the French tank line.

5661029
I have read the novels, I love Gaunt's Ghosts and Caiphas Cain. I also already knew lasguns cauterize wounds which basically makes them about as good as a blaster rifle from star wars or a phaser from star trek only much heavier. The problem is when inconsistent shit happens and its hard to figure out what's the truth. The other point being that 40k fans sometimes blow things way out of proportion. Then when you suggest they might be wrong they accuse you of Heresy.

5661049
Cast Plasteel.

5661046
Fair enough. My general point with that however was that the Imperium is to fucking busy to worry that much about the Tau and it would likely be the same case with another reasonably powerful faction.

5661175
Well, I'm really not a fan, more an amused heckler who really can't take the entire nonsense seriously, so I really have no reason to overstate things there. That's from in-setting descriptions as far as I could make sense of them.

5661166
You outline the Tau situation very well.

Its probably due to their use of cheap easy to produce drones, reliance on speed rather than armor, Naval competence with longer range then the Imperium and insignificance that's kept them in the fight.

They also change strategy as much as they do tech, its a positive and a negative.