Bridge placement...

From the Federation's dorsal dome:

To the Empire's massive towers:

To the Twelve Colonies' CIC buried deep in the hull:

To the Normandy's separated .... style*:

and beyond. Everyone has a preferred design that the believe is the pinnacle of starship design and that all others are inferior in some way. So let's try and probably fail to put this to rest; defend your bridge.

It's no surprise to anyone that I'd defend the Federation's bridge design. While some may argue that a bridge should be in the center of the ship to for greater protection, I argue that placing the bridge there would not increase survivability. With the kind of firepower often either seen or stated in sci-fi**, simple deck plates aren't going to make a difference. As long as the hull around the bridge is just as thick as anywhere else on the ship and there's no massive windows***, it will have the same amount of protection. And it has the added benefit of being much easier to upgrade since the entire bridge can then be a modular system which you can just 'plug-in' to the rest of the ship. Having the same amount of protection while being relatively easy to upgrade? Sounds like something any military/qasi-military organization would want.

*Seriously, I still don't understand the Normandy's bridge. What possible benefit could you get from separating the helmsman from the rest of the command crew and drastically increasing the area the bridge takes up when space is already a premium? If you're worried about losing the entire bridge crew during an attack then it might help to keep the bridge as small as possible. Plus, if you've lost the helm then you're probably already abandoning ship.... Of course the logistics of escape pods is a completely different debate.

**This is true even in real life. Lighter capital ships hulls could easily be over penetrated by battleship rounds in WWII. What really caused them to detonate inside the ship was an impact-activated timer fuse that caused the shell to detonate inside the hull. Though, that system wasn't perfect either as the IJN Yamato's cannons were mostly ineffective against destroyers and destroyer-escorts for part of the war as the rounds were traveling so fast that they'd go straight through and hit the ocean before detonating.

***As much flak as I give the Kelvin Timeline for the view windows, at least it's been established that there's a structural integrity field that's acting as yet another layer of shielding so it wouldn't be too much of a weak spot. The UNSC's bridges have no such excuse.

I don't know which one I'd defend, but I do think that it's kinda silly that the Star Destroyer has two shield generators (out of possibly three) located close to its command centers. Granted, some defense for the bridge makes sense, but having two-thirds of your energy shielding being done nearby does paint a bigger target.

5607153
I don't think those are shield generators.

They look exactly like modern radar domes

5607185
That's... actually a rather interesting design philosophy. How did you intend to maneuver such a massive vessel? That much mass for the size would make it incredibly to overcome inertia.

5607212
Okay, that makes sense.

Except the degrees part. How did you get 64,082 degrees?

5607244
Wouldn't that only cover a little under half the ship? Ideally you'd want to cover every possible angle. So about 41,253 degrees^2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_degree

5607171 Every Star Wars video game and computer game I've played labeled them as shield generators. Also, in "Return of the Jedi", one got blown up on the Super Star Destroyer, and the bridge crew immediately told Admiral Piett that the shields had been weakened as a result. Hence, shield generators.

5607276
No, I was talking how you did your math.

5607278
The video and computer games are noncanon.

I am aware of that, but that's not what those are.

There has been some controversy as to whether the domes on Imperial Star Destroyer bridge towers are actually sensor globes, or shield generators. Richard Edlund, one of the SFX artists on ROTJ, noted in the February 1983 issue of Cinefex that they were "radar domes", i.e for sensor purposes.

The destruction of the dome and the shield line for the SSD were not related.

5607288 Ah. Well, I stand corrected then.

5607320
It's basically the same concept behind any other unit of measure squared; it just has to be done differently because it's inscribed on the surface of a curve.

In terms of general ship design, I believe to go with the philosophy of the Uplift saga: Any strategy can work if it's implemented intelligently enough.

Personally though, I'm partial to the middle-of-ship design, as I feel that having an equal distance to all parts of the ship would be important in a tight situation. In regards to view ports, fuck those, unless you're going to culture a giant diamond to use as the window, it's just a weak spot. Though, it doesn't really matter anyway, since space battles are more likely to be a matter of 'who can blow the other one up first'.

5607587

In terms of general ship design, I believe to go with the philosophy of the Uplift saga: Any strategy can work if it's implemented intelligently enough.

Point taken.

Personally though, I'm partial to the middle-of-ship design, as I feel that having an equal distance to all parts of the ship would be important in a tight situation.

By that logic, wouldn't it make more sense to put the main reactor/main engineering in the center of the ship? Knocking out the bridge/command crew isn't a guaranteed ship-kill. Knocking out main power on the other hand...

In regards to view ports, fuck those, unless you're going to culture a giant diamond to use as the window, it's just a weak spot.

Well you could always go with the Babylon 5 solution and have armored shutters for all of the windows. Or force fields.

Though, it doesn't really matter anyway, since space battles are more likely to be a matter of 'who can blow the other one up first'.

Or 'who runs first'. As there's really nothing in a lot of sci-fi keeping ships from retreating when the battle starts going badly for them.

5607105
Personally I don't have a total problem with the federation design though I would still prefer it a little deeper inside of the ship. I distinctly recall a couple red shirts flying out what used to be the Enterprise E's vie screen in Nemesis. In general I'd prefer to not have one shot that manages to penetrate, rupture, or buckle a section of the hull vent the bridge into vacuum. Also would depend on how tough your ships internals are.

The old windows on a ships bridge question. Personally I have mixed opinions. I do think that you should have some sort of way to steer the ship manually or at least look out side and see what's going on if sensors are fucked up. Quoth Joker: "You do know they could just look out a window a see us right?" Quoting another source; "equipment fails, eyes don't." At the same time I wouldn't want my bridge getting torpedoed. Maybe a forward observation deck or something instead? Or at least make them smaller with armored shutters.

If we are going by what we see in mass effect usually during space combat Shepard is up by joker with all of the essential stuff. Everything else is further back. I believe some where in mass effect one Shepard comments that the design is based on Turian bridge layout which calls for the commander at the center of everything ahead of else.

5607171
Actually they are both. Those are Kuat Drive Yards ISD-72x deflector shield generator/sensor domes. These generators required large amounts of power drawn from the ships main reactor via generators located deep within the command tower. These generators were well armored but were vulnerable to suicide attacks from small starships or missile weapons such as concussion missiles and proton torpedoes from Starfighters.

Also yes the dome destruction and the line about the bridge deflector shield were connected.

Also most star wars games tend to be roughly accurate in their depiction of various items in the star wars universe. Naturally some tweeks are done for game play balance. Also the canon debate is a bit moot at this point. Video game stories certainly happened in the star wars universe, though most have been relegated to the legends continuity. Before you go starting on Legends its less of non-canon and more of separate canon like how their is the marvel comics canon and marvel MCU canon. They are basically treated as separate universes or timelines though they share characters and items. When it comes to legends canon source material I recommend things like the essential guide to warfare, the Jedi path, the book of the sith and other source books.

5607605

wouldn't it make more sense to put the main reactor/main engineering in the centre of the ship?

Point taken, but I still think the command centre should be nowhere near the outer hull.

armored shutters for all of the windows. Or force fields.

No. Think of it this way, I have a huge wall around my kingdom, with a weak spot at the entrance, putting an electric fence around the whole perimeter of the wall increases defence for that part... But also for every other part, thus, the weak spot remains. You could say that a force field could be used on that part only, but if you have the tech for a powerful force field, then why not protect the rest of the ship as well?

On that note, if you have an impenetrable force field, why not protect the whole ship with that, then you could put the engine next to the damn coffee machine, because nothing is going to touch it.

there's really nothing in a lot of sci-fi keeping ships from retreating when the battle starts going badly for them.

Apart from, you know, the other ship following them. Though at that point it's just about which one's faster and more evasive.

5607852

Personally I don't have a total problem with the federation design though I would still prefer it a little deeper inside of the ship. I distinctly recall a couple red shirts flying out what used to be the Enterprise E's vie screen in Nemesis.

I remember that scene. They lost the helmsman that way and Deanna had to drive.

Or at least make them smaller with armored shutters.

I think the shutter or deployable armor idea would work the best in that case. It gives an easy way for manual navigation minimizing weak spots in the hull.

I believe some where in mass effect one Shepard comments that the design is based on Turian bridge layout which calls for the commander at the center of everything ahead of else.

I recall that too. I still find it a little strange that the efficiency-minded Turians would divide the bridge like that.

Actually they are both.....and other source books.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

5607864

Point taken, but I still think the command centre should be nowhere near the outer hull.

Ah, personal preference.

No...he rest of the ship as well

Err, by armored shutters I mean a retractable piece of hull that can cover the window. Same thickness as the rest of the hull. The force field option would be a small emitter designed to compensate for the relative weakness of the window. Basically, a high tech version of the shutter.
Where are you getting 'impenetrable'?

Apart from, you know, the other ship following them. Though at that point it's just about which one's faster and more evasive.

My favorite combat style. Out-run what you can't outgun and out-gun what you can out-run.

5607874
It's measuring surface area, so two dimensional.

Like how for a cube you measure the surface area in square cm and not cubic cm. Same principle but with a polar coordinate system instead of a cartesian coordinate system.

5607105 my only grip with having the deck so close to the hull is if they are going for that they could ay least reifnorce that sectotion of the hull.

5607959
That might work, or it would just change the strategy to 'fire around the bridge' to get it off. If you're going to reinforce one section of a starship, you might as well reinforce everything.

5608002 true...

5608002
the strategy you described would be a horribly inefficient use of fire power and would require considerable accuracy to pull off in a combat situation particularly when two ships are engaged in battle maneuvers.

5608027
Point taken. It would pretty much only be effective if being used with guided munitions like torpedoes.
Unless the other vessel has already had their engines damaged/crippled, at which point it really isn't necessary to expose the bridge to vacuum.

5608036
would still up armor the bridge or putting it really deep, wouldn't want anyone sniping the cockpit so to speak.

5607934

by armoured shutters I mean a retractable piece of hull that can cover the window. Same thickness as the rest of the hull

Ah, that would have been a better description, as 'shutters' doesn't exactly bring to mind images of strength. Though they'd have to shut pretty fast when we're dealing with fast moving lasers. On top of that, you probably couldn't see through them, so you'd be effectively going blind. Cameras could work, but in that case, why bother with shutters in the first place? It just seems pointless to me.

Where are you getting 'impenetrable'?

It was hypothetical.

Ah, personal preference.

Let me clarify, the engine and command centre should be in the middle. If the engine is a hazard, it shouldn't be on the ship. if it could be blown up by the enemy, the whole ship would go kaboom anyway. honestly having the quarters near the engine would be a good thing, as people could do regular and/or immediate maintenance without having to walk through half a mile of corridors.

5608042
I'd probably go with up-armor in that case. Burying the bridge deep in the ship isn't a reliable way of ensuring safety in my opinion...

sniping the cockpit

[WARTHUNDER FLASHBACKS INTENSIFY]

5608067
Because people like viewing things out of an actual window. The shutter idea is more of a compromise anyway because some people do want actual windows on ships instead of relying on a view screen for everything. Though said shutter idea would also work for crew quarters.

having the quarters near the engine would be a good thing, as people could do regular and/or immediate maintenance without having to walk through half a mile of corridors.

Radiation leaks would be killer though. You wouldn't necessarily have to walk through half a mile of corridors. There's nothing preventing someone from installing a transportation system. But we're already beyond the scope of this thread.

5608113
Fair enough. I still wouldn't want it as an exposed target for the enemy to shoot though.

5608262
Eh, I don't think it would be any more of a risk than putting the bridge anywhere else (as long as the armor thickness remains constant).

5608308
your funeral.

5608345
You'd think that, but for some reason I actually tend to die last nowadays.

5608346
Yeah you probably just jinxed yourself

5608362
You'd think that, but I have said that dozens of times and never suffered ill effects.

In my opinion the praetor MK-IIs bridge is better than the ISDs bridge. its low to fhe hull to make it less of a target and has few viewports

5608380
-Flash backs to Thrawn's Revenge commence-

5618326
The Empire at War mod?

5619081 yep that thing is overpowered with its absurd range 2 of them with a backup venator fleet to act as carriers and they can take down SSD's

Personally, I'm with the "as near the center and as protected as possible." I'd actually put it into a separate compartment with the reactor core, ideally behind an extra layer of shielding around just those two components. They are the most critical to ship function and if either is lost, the other has really no further value and the ship is destroyed for all practical and mission purposes. There is no need to put them high up or at the front for maximum visibility, the way bridges are for traditional sea-faring warships. All information is fed from artificial sensors anyway. Putting them together and putting as much extra protection on these particular sections as you can seems both the obvious and the sensible thing to do.

5619159
I'd keep them separate for the same reasons. They are the most critical components, but you can lose the bridge without losing the ship (unless you're using an SSD. In which case losing the bridge=ship going out of control and crashing and not switching to the auxiliary bridge).
And technically you can lose the main reactor without losing the ship, you just wouldn't be able to fight.
5619146
Aren't fighters broken as hell in that mod and both the SSD and the Viscount have horrible pathing issues?

5619176

And technically you can lose the main reactor without losing the ship, you just wouldn't be able to fight.

I'm assuming for the sake of debate that with the powers and energies involved in long-distance space travel, a catastrophic loss in structural integrity for the reactor is basically equivalent to "the ship blows the fuck up" and there's no way for a ship to have its reactor physically hit and actually survive the ensuing explosive release of energy. As such, it would be easier to massively protect one shared containment area that is counterdependent on each other than having two that need to be protected separately, but are not actually of any use separate from each other.

you can lose the bridge without losing the ship

By the same merit, I assume that if the bridge is lost, no commanding officers or ways to access most ship functions remain and whoever destroyed your bridge will now destroy the rest at his leisure. Auxiliary bridges would solve the former, but not the latter problem.

yes the SSD/viscout do have horrible pathing but thats why you wait for the map reveal and jump em close the fighters are also very broken not as much as they could be though their, missiles could have been like the original games and bypass the shields. still in the books fighter spam was the most effective tactic so it is kinda accurate to the lore.

5619193

'm assuming for the sake of debate that with the powers and energies involved in long-distance space travel, a catastrophic loss in structural integrity for the reactor is basically equivalent to "the ship blows the fuck up" and there's no way for a ship to have its reactor physically hit and actually survive the ensuing explosive release of energy. As such, it would be easier to massively protect one shared containment area that is counterdependent on each other than having two that need to be protected separately, but are not actually of any use separate from each other.

I'm assuming that 'disabling' shots also occur, since ideally you want to only cripple the other vessel so you can capture her for her technology and crew. Or that ejection systems for the core exist so an unstable core can be ejected from the vessel.

Of course, my biggest argument has always been 'it really doesn't matter other than personal preference'. Since, with some exceptions*, deck plating will do nothing to protect the interior of the ship. Any shot capable of penetrating the hull will go all the way through to the other side.

By the same merit, I assume that if the bridge is lost, no commanding officers or ways to access most ship functions remain and whoever destroyed your bridge will now destroy the rest at his leisure. Auxiliary bridges would solve the former, but not the latter problem.

That's why you'd have the auxiliary bridge crewed at all times with trained officers. Just because they aren't the senior staff, doesn't mean they aren't capable of commanding a starship in an emergency.
Of course is that bridge is taken out, main engineering can serve as a temporary command center.

*Like Seal's design. Which is less 'ship' and more 'block of metal with a couple corridors cut into it'.

5619197
Yes but I saw someone take out multiple SSDs with only B-Wings. At that point, I have to question the balance of the game.
There's 'broken' and then there's 'why would you build anything else'.

5619236

I'm assuming that 'disabling' shots also occur, since ideally you want to only cripple the other vessel so you can capture her for her technology and crew.

I consider that functionally and categorically impossible, honestly. The problem with space combat is that there really can be no space combat. Every problem that applies to naval combat applies to space combat, except worse. There is no way to dodge. There is no way to hide. There is no way to evade. The moment you are in space, everything for light-hours around can see you and there is no way for you to avoid it at all. There will be no fight because, on the human level, nothing can actually compete with the first shot - a 1kg slug of metal accelerated to 0.99c is de facto impossible to dodge or even just detect before it hits you and impacts with the explosive force of the biggest nuclear bomb ever constructed, the Tsar Bomba.

Nothing can hide from that, nothing can survive it. This isn't even getting into the possibility of tracking warheads and smartbombs with internal warp drives or whatever, that's just for plain slugs of metal.

As such, the discussion is really fruitless unless you reduce it to "in terms of space opera physics," so I guess I'm really with you there on the whole personal preference thing. Practical considerations simply do not actually apply in the real world, because no practical design smaller than a Death Star can actually live through that.

That's why you'd have the auxiliary bridge crewed at all times with trained officers. Just because they aren't the senior staff, doesn't mean they aren't capable of commanding a starship in an emergency.
Of course is that bridge is taken out, main engineering can serve as a temporary command center.

For security reasons, a lot of function would and ought to be hardwired to only ever be accessible from the bridge, in my opinion. Anything else offers the possibility of being hijacked by saboteurs or even off-ship computer cracking. Weapons, shields and in-ship defense systems are the most likely candidate there.

5619081
Yes.

5607105 I'm quite fond of the SolForce style for staggered warships with the bridge on one of the middle tiers. (That red area there on the star destroyer)

On battleships like the Bismarck the bridge wasn't right on top but around halfway up.

5619271
Looks fun.

5619273
Which makes sense for the era.

5619268
I think we need to establish what tech level we're talking about before continuing. Since most of this chat was either 'far future tech', 'space opera tech', 'space fantasy' and not Children of a Dead Earth type combat.

5619289
Ah, built out of an asteroid style.

5619289
Going for the Ork route of design aesthetics?

5619290
It's not bad and I do like most of how it represents star wars capital ships from the old EU but it can be a real bitch sometimes. That said it does set something of a standard for scifi mods for me. Though Scifi at war (when I could find it) has a special place in my heart.

5619299
Aye, that's one of the things I like about it. There's actual variety and you can tell the classes apart just by looking at them. Certainly a lot more interesting to watch than the Empire only using Star Destroyers with the occasional SSD.

Sci-fi at war?
You mean this one http://www.moddb.com/mods/scifi-at-war-2

I can see why you'd have a special place for it.

5619290
Well, that's a problem, then... because a lot of "tech levels" in the average science fiction story and/or game are really way more advanced than what I proposed, the average writer just isn't scientifically literate enough to realize these things and try to write something realistic and appropriate out of it. "Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale" and all that. Any civilization that can do superluminal speeds at all can do what I just proposed, with no real counter possible except for even more absurd tech - and energy shields are kinda setting dependent. The limit of "you can't detect anything faster than the light it emits" is more of a physical limitation than a technological one.

5619304
It is good but I do have a few complaints regarding the super ships and capital ships in general.

I also have to admit that I kind of prefer empire at war in some ways to sins.

that's the one, mostly because it has BSG and the BSG faction is actually really good; some of the best fighters in the game, ships with a lot of health and armor, and also pretty insane dakka.