RTAC #14: The Other Sith

This post is not as much of a good investigation as usual, in that it does not present a solid conclusion. We have bloody little to go on. It is, nevertheless, the most detailed collation of data I could make and an invitation to discussion.

(Lad|Fill)ies and gentle(colts|men), I present to you the Other Sith Problem:

The Problem

Starlight Glimmer is consistently established as crazy powerful and incredibly skilled in magic, by repeatedly beating and/or matching Twilight in such. She has unique magical skills in manipulating cutie marks that nobody reports being able to replicate, which edge dangerously close to the feat that gave Twilight wings.

So why?

Let us dismiss the Doylist explanation that “it’s because she’s a Mary Sue,” because neither it is particularly interesting, nor it is helpful for a writer. This question is a major consideration for the interpretation of Starlight’s character even if it isn’t something the show writers have kept in mind. It is a glaring hole in canonical texts that we either have an opportunity to write into, or have to write around.

1. Despite otherwise poor showing, but for a thousand plus year old mare, Celestia sure is remarkably spry.
2. With the possible exception of Sombra, who is presented outright as a corrupted monster.

Now, Twilight has been a student in what has to be the most prestigious school of magic in the land, repeatedly said to be an exemplary student at that. For all of that time, she was under personal tutelage of someone who has to have a thousand years worth of experience,¹ and probably did have a lot of knowledge to impart. Twilight has been reputed and presented as very powerful even at the very start of the series. She has a magic-in-general cutie mark, which clearly beats a rather specific magic-related cutie mark Trixie sports. Her elder brother is capable of casting city-wide magic, making this a trend – no other unicorn was demonstrated to be able to cast magic on this scale.²

Twilight has everything going for her, from nature to nurture. And yet Starlight matches a post-apotheosis Twilight.

So what did Starlight have going for her? Nature? Flashbacks to her time with Sunburst leave that rather inconclusive, but don’t exactly top the stuff Twilight pulled, and she remains in awe of Sunburst. And Sunburst, while established as a great theoretician, laments his lack of practical skill repeatedly. That leaves nurture.

So who did the nurture and how? Who was her “friend” that convinced her that ridding ponies of cutie marks is the way forward, or at least, gave her the means to implement this way?

The Sith philosophy, while generally hardly relevant for ponies, mandated the Rule of Two: only two, exactly two Sith Lords should exist at any given time. One master and one student. One to embody the dark side of the Force and one to covet it. Only half-jokingly, I summarize the question as…

Where’s the other Sith?

Observations

We have no canonical indications whatsoever as to the identity of this hypothetical character, or whether they even actually exist somewhere in the background. But like with all other conspicuously missing things, a lot can be divined by the shape of the hole that remains, so let’s list the observations which I think could be relevant:

The Cutie Map:

• 3. Both are used at different times.

  Starlight is explicitly described as “the founder” of Our Village / Our Town³ by Double Diamond. Singular.

• 4. That one was quoted by Sugar Belle.
  5. I could go on citing things like “In sameness there’s peace,” “Exceptionalism is a lie,” etc…

  Starlight clearly has a well-defined ideology of equalism, or whatever she calls this teaching – the phrases like “false promise of our cutie marks” and “experience true friendship for the first time” and “Different talents lead to different opinions, which lead to bitterness and misery,”⁴ leave no other interpretations.⁵ Even the ceremonial use of Cutie Marks stored in the vault implies that. While on screen, Starlight’s books are full of nothing but equals signs, there has to be more written in them, because the Mane 6 are reading them.

• Starlight hopes to exploit Twilight for PR and at least tries to present her cult as a legitimate philosophy.
• Starlight mentions that “nopony has ever come to our village and wanted to leave,” which implies that probably, nopony has ever left since it was established.
• The cutie mark containment grid has 112 visible slots. About 12 appear to be empty, leaving only 6 free once the Mane 6 marks end up inside.
• Double Diamond says that the welcoming ceremony for new friends consists of the whole village joining together to build a new cottage. At the time when this is uttered, the village contains 12 cottages plus Starlight’s own cottage, and overhead shots make it clear that there are no more cottages anywhere nearby. One of the cottages is used to keep newcomers. Newcomers that have accepted the cult stay with Starlight until their cottage is complete.

• 6. It’s interesting that after Starlight finishes her argument and runs off into her cottage, nobody chases her, they all run towards the vault instead.

  Starlight states that it’s her own magic that makes the cutie mark removal possible, and that the Staff of Sameness is a piece of wood found in the desert. This, mind you, does not explain how the staff is able to stay up vertically on a pedestal seemingly not supported by anything, so some enchantment is probably still involved.⁶

• Starlight’s cottage has a secret escape tunnel.
• Double Diamond first met Starlight up in the mountains next to the site of the village, while skiing. Whether any village existed at the time or not, we don’t know.
• We can’t be certain what spell Starlight is attempting to cast once Twilight catches up with the chase, but I suspect it’s the cutie mark removal spell once again. That said, it looks somewhat different without the staff. If that is true, Starlight’s statement that “I’ve studied this spell for years” refers to the cutie mark removal spell, and Twilight has been able to produce a spell-specific shield on the spot.
• It’s interesting that the spell Starlight casts to escape is not a teleport, because we can see snowy tracks leading away from her position once the bubble is gone. Most likely, it’s once again a push-away shield like she used back in the village.
• Party Favor states that “We all came to this village because we were searching for something missing from our lives.”

Post-publication addendum: There is one important dialogue that needs to be quoted verbatim. When Fluttershy ventures out to steal the cutie marks back, she finds out that Starlight ordered their removal from the wall, and the following dialogue happens:

Double Diamond: Of course, but I don’t understand why you wanted me to bring them here. Fluttershy is one of us now. Surely she can be trusted.
Starlight Glimmer: This one belongs to a princess. It could be very important to our cause.
Double Diamond: But if Twilight Sparkle becomes our friend, then why do we care about this old cutie mark?
Starlight Glimmer: I just want to keep them close until everything is… settled. You may go, Double Diamond.

The Cutie Re-Mark:

• Starlight was explicitly delaying her plan until Twilight’s arrival.
• That plan required esoteric knowledge on the working of the Cutie Map, which is not available anywhere except from the Map itself, seeing as how before it was spawned, the map plain didn’t exist, and the information on the Tree of Harmony is itself quite esoteric.
• The information about the Sonic Rainboom has to have been available to Starlight prior to Twilight’s lecture in this episode, because otherwise, she had to beat Twilight home and cook up the entire plan together with preparations in a split second.

• 7. Twilight refers to it as “Starlight’s version of” – which implies it’s a copy. That said, it’s still the only spell presented so far for which the scroll it is written on is a required part of the magic.

  At least some form of access to Star Swirl the Bearded’s wing in the Canterlot Archives is required to procure a copy of his time spell,⁷ because back in It’s About Time, Twilight was sure access would be restricted even for her. Never mind that it wasn’t, for a mare off the street like Starlight, it definitely was. There is no reason to believe public catalogs of the contents of this wing are available. In fact, even Twilight did not know if private catalogs exist, or that’s where she would go first.

• In addition to tricks previously used, Starlight employs cloudwalking, self-levitation and teleportation, an unusual crystal freezing spell, and some rare variations on telekinesis, not to mention she’s throwing beams and casting shields like there’s no tomorrow. Many of these would permit her to outright win in The Cutie Map, particularly the teleportation.
• When gloating over the captured Twilight, Starlight boasts of doing all the work involved in producing the time travel spell from Star Swirl’s source herself. Notably, she also says, “My village was a sanctuary of equality, where nopony’s cutie mark allowed them to feel superior! It was a special place, and you and your friends took it away!”
• Starlight’s demonstration of her Freudian friendlian excuse involves actual time travel, but notably, she never attempted to prevent Sunburst from getting his cutie mark, even though she could do it from the start and avoid having to fight Twilight at all. Either the ideology or the hate of Twilight turned out to be more important than fixing her own root problem.
• Starlight does not remember ever being apart from Sunburst, even though he isn’t her brother. I’m not sure whom does the house that Sunburst is playing with Starlight in belong to. Seeing as how both of his very obvious parents are outside, that is probably Starlight’s house, and she wouldn’t be able to live in it alone at this age. There are multiple possible interpretations of this scene regarding Starlight’s family situation, but according to Starlight, her friend was “gone” after that, which wouldn’t happen if she were adopted into his family. She had to have had her own.
• Starlight’s turnaround seems a bit strange in the dramatic sense. Either she should have given up upon seeing the Wasteland Timeline, or Twilight’s further admonishments should not have swayed her either.

The Crystalling:

• Starlight’s behavior is completely contrary to her own friendlian excuse: She has never attempted to contact Sunburst after he left. While it is hardly surprising she is hesitant to admit her crimes to Sunburst now, she had 10-15 years to contact him.

• 8. I don’t even own that many…

  Starlight’s flashback has Starlight spending time with Sunburst. While the picnic is completely normal, the scene in the severely dirty kitchen that Sunburst subsequently cleans up is rather strange. How exactly did it get that dirty? How exactly do you accumulate ~30 dirty dishes⁸ and stain the walls? Also notably, while it’s Sunburst who starts the cleanup process by using a rag to wipe up the drink Starlight spills, the subsequent burst that cleans up the entire kitchen has Starlight’s magic color on it, rather than his.

• Starlight’s rant to Sunburst when she finally abandons all pretense is rather telling: “Well, you don’t know what it was like to be left behind! And then getting so bitter that you steal the cutie marks from an entire village and then get defeated by Twilight and her friends, so you travel through time to get back at them, but they beat you again and teach you about friendship, but you’re so terrified ponies will find out what you did that you can’t make any friends!” The said gap of 10-15 years is rather glaring.
• Celestia corroborates the story of Sunburst leaving, acknowledging him as “an old student of mine.”

No Second Prances:

• 9. If she were actually magically keeping the entire town compelled to do her bidding the entire time, why the charade with keeping the Mane 6 locked up until they give in?

  This entire episode is interesting in that Starlight uses magic to brute force her way through the problem she has been given and fails. However, should she have displayed this mastery of magic during her tenure as the cult leader, she would have been outed without assistance long ago – none of the mark-less unicorns are anywhere near special enough to perform half of that.⁹

• Starlight has no knowledge whatsoever of who the Wonderbolts are. Notably, Twilight, a social shut-in of the highest order, did.
• The words Starlight uses to describe her experience are, repeatedly, “enslaving villages.” This will become important later.

Incidentally, while it’s unrelated to the current topic of research, Starlight says “Well, you did say anypony, and I just assumed that you’d trust me to make my own friends the way Princess Celestia trusted you.” Well, remember A Celestial Advice? Celestia certainly did not trust Twilight with that.

Every Little Thing She Does (is evil):

• Starlight displays deep familiarity with a group of spells that have Dog Latin names, which she claims are “very old.” Notably, even Twilight is not aware of the intricacies of those spells, and some of them she does not know at all, even though the books containing them are present in her library. In fact, nobody ever refers to this spell group unless Starlight is in the immediate vicinity. Starlight can combine them, which hardly anypony except Sunburst ever does to spells.

Rock Solid Friendship:

• Maud reports meeting Starlight previously. Notably, Starlight recognizes Maud but does not remember any details of that meeting. Maud says that she traveled Equestria for her rocktorate dissertation, during which Starlight randomly approached her with a question “Have you ever come across some super powerful stone that can store the cutie mark magic of, I don’t know, entire village?” Which Maud reported was located in a nearby cave.
• At the time of this flashback, five cottages plus Starlight’s own cottage are completed, and two more are under construction. Close examination of the shot reveals that all the ponies currently visible in the village are already mark-less.
• Pinkie’s reaction is that Maud should never tell anyone about how she accidentally “helped Starlight enslave a town.”
• It’s interesting that Maud only barely escaped “not wanting to leave” by never setting hoof in the village proper. It’s an open question why didn’t Starlight attempt to drag such a potentially dangerous witness consultant in.
• We don’t know exactly how long it took Maud to acquire her rocktorate, but we know exactly when she left to do that. It was soon after the episode Maud Pie, where Pinkie says: “Now that Maud is heading out to get her rocktorate in rock science…” – and it could not have happened more than about two years ago.

Friendship is Magic #48-50:

• There aren’t a lot of relevant things in this comic, but Starlight says, among other things, “I once tried to bring order to my village, but, well, I wasn’t doing it for the right reasons.” Also, “My village was horrible. Everypony wanted to escape!”

Hypotheses

This hypothetical character will probably not be one that has already been introduced to us, if only because I agree with DannyJ’s estimation that the show writers probably never thought about it in detail. But let’s try to deduce something.

With the information assembled by today, the following picture of the early days of Our Town emerges:

• It’s surprising, but Our Town under Starlight could not have lasted for longer than about two years, possibly three. I.e. it was definitely founded within the series run. Wherever Maud Pie is located temporally, it has to stay within the endcaps of Season 4, and that is a relatively narrow stretch of time. While Maud observes Our Town not at the moment of the founding, she does so early enough, that it still has to fall within series timeline entirely.
• The reason Starlight is looking for a powerful stone is probably that she is experiencing a sudden influx of new ponies, and permitting them to view their cast off cutie marks in her cottage has become too much of a problem – because the spell definitely exists by that point, she “spent years learning it,” and ponies seen on the street are all mark-less. This is also suggested by two cottages under construction, which, according to Double Diamond, are built when new ponies join.
• Want some fridge horror? In addition to at least six, possibly ten pre-cutie-mark foals found in the village, who are way too old to have been born after the founding, the density of cutie marks per cottage is too high. They definitely do not live ten ponies per cottage, at most, five, which would require two times more cottages to accommodate. Dismissing the grim variants, in which the process of cutie mark removal is eventually fatal, leads to suicide, or indirectly promotes accidental death as failures that would otherwise not be fatal now are, we are left with only one option. It’s only slightly less grim: Starlight had a collection of cutie marks of at least fifty ponies before Our Town was established.
• Founding Our Town was not a brief moment of inspiration or a snap decision. There has never been any impulse about it. Depending on how old do you think Starlight is – my impression has always been that she is about five years older than Twilight, which would put her at about 25-27, but that’s arguable – Sunburst leaving for SGU has occurred between 10 and 20 years ago. For this entire period, Starlight’s position remains undefined.
• While it is possible that Our Town was initially just a regular village that Starlight took over, it is highly unlikely: She is cited as the founder, all the cottages are built in a regular pattern, victims report coming to the village of their own free will because they were having a spiritual crisis. Of particular note is Double Diamond, who acts as Starlight’s right hoof, and reports meeting her on the mountain while skiing – he was probably her first convert. It is far more probable that Starlight started the village from scratch.
• The presence of an escape tunnel in Starlight’s cottage suggests that the possibility of needing to escape was in the cards from the very start. I’d even go so far as to say that while for Starlight, the primary purpose of building Our Town was to make her own little utopia, collecting cutie marks with the intent to do something else with them was another purpose.
• Starlight founded Our Town, but this is consistently not what she says about it after she gets her heel-face turn, she speaks of it as if she took over a pre-existing settlement! It’s as if further and further details of the founding of Our Town are slipping out of her memory, and producing a progressively darker picture.

The one elephant in the room that we can’t see is that Starlight somehow did acquire her own cutie mark. Whatever happened, it has to have occurred between that moment and the time she founded Our Town. This time period has to contain the origins of the equalism ideology.

So does the ideology itself originate with Starlight? My guess is no: The literature involved is extensive, and it has to have convinced somepony. Someone engaging in serious philosophical work at her age would not have had the time to invent all this and study enough magic to do even half of the things she did.

So someone has to have found her, presumably, soon after she acquired her own cutie mark, and started teaching her magic – enough magic that, upon finally learning the cutie mark removal spell, she went off on her own to start Our Town, already possessing a certain quantity of removed cutie marks for unknown purposes. This someone has to have kept her from making new social connections, contacting Sunburst or even finding out how he’s doing, and this someone used a lot of unorthodox, rare and ancient books of magic for teaching materials. This explanation surely beats taking the friendlian excuse at face value, doesn’t it?

Admittedly, this could just be book learning. I.e. the hypothetical Other Sith is currently deceased. However, here’s a thing… They have to be alive:

• The chances that an ancient book could have contained any information on Star Swirl’s time spells is very low. The chances that Starlight would be able to acquire information on the Tree of Harmony and its potential spawn – that is, the Cutie Map, which did not exist at the time any books on the Tree of Harmony could have been written – are even lower. Someone has to have helped her acquire this information, and no amount of simple stalking of Twilight would get her both.
• Between her first appearance on screen and her temporal war with Twilight, Starlight has acquired a plethora of new tricks, most of which would have saved her bacon in the first encounter with Twilight and company. Therefore, she did not have them at the time.

She has to have met the Other Sith again, and returned with esoteric knowledge and new training for her revenge – at the very least, some important cryptic hints had to have been involved. And then, suddenly, it’s as if all memory of that person disappears, and her own memory of her time in Our Town changes. It’s like she no longer believes she founded it, instead thinking that she invaded and enslaved a pre-existing settlement.

The hypothetical Other Sith has to be someone knowledgeable indeed, if they exist. We do know memory alteration spells exist, don’t we? Starlight could even be a sleeper agent.

Kinda like…

Or you could take this tongue in cheek.

Wouldn’t it be cool if ponies had something like this in their plotline? The hole certainly exists, as I have demonstrated above.

Comments

[mastermenthe]

Other Sith theory is now my new favorite!

[Masterweaver]

Well... there's a conspiracy theory.

[Eruantalon]

Weird and fun idea!

A couple other thoughts:

* It's possible that a village on the site of Our Town previously existed, before Starlight brought it over to Equalist philosophy. Perhaps the buildings were later rebuilt along Equalist lines, and that's what Maud saw. During her reign, Starlight was called the founder of Our Town because it was re-founded under her teachings - sort of like how we can call Lauren Faust the creator of MLP. Afterwards, of course, Starlight would be talking about the historical truth.

* I agree Starlight probably met someone and learned some new magic during S6. Jordan179 postulated she had a runin with his version of the Nightmare Forces, which could also explain all her memory gaps. Alternatively, though, maybe the security in the Starswirl The Bearded wing hasn't been tightened up at all since Twilight's escapade?

* As long as we're constructing castles of conspiracy theories, though, I think we need to look more at how Maud escaped without Starlight trying to equalize her, and with Starlight forgetting all the circumstances of their encounter. Perhaps she's the Other Sith?

[Oliver]

4514707

It’s possible that a village on the site of Our Town previously existed, before Starlight brought it over to Equalist philosophy.

That is an option. It would explain some of the inconsistencies in Starlight’s comments, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t invalidate anything else. It certainly does nothing to plug the gap between the moment Starlight gets her cutie mark and founds Our Town with anything other than the Other Sith. :)

Alternatively, though, maybe the security in the Starswirl The Bearded wing hasn’t been tightened up at all since Twilight’s escapade?

It probably hasn’t, but here’s the thing: To even know where to look you still need rather esoteric information – like the fact that there is a Star Swirl wing. Even Twilight did not know if a catalog exists.

Perhaps she’s the Other Sith?

I did think about that. Is Maud sufficiently weird for something like that? Possibly. Does she have the access to the required esoteric information, like ancient unicorn magic? Not if she’s actually Maud.

She could well be the source on the workings of the Cutie Map, though, and it would explain her statement regarding the rocks the castle is composed of. At the very least, it’s quite probable she knows something else she isn’t mentioning.

[Mitch H]

So what, you're thinking Grogar? It isn't really his style, is it? Tirek in weak old man mode, sure. Maybe Starlight junior drilled a portal into Tartarus and stole any education in warlockry and practical malice from the various bottled evil inside. And one of them mind wammied her.

[Oliver]

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So what, you’re thinking Grogar?

Probably not. From a Doylist perspective, Starlight probably is a Mary Sue. That is, the canon hole is never getting officially filled, the show writers aren’t writing something quite that clever. We do have some grounds to believe Grogar might turn up in the future, and since he would definitely not fill that canon hole for that reason, it can’t be him.

Tirek in weak old man mode, sure.

Unfortunately the timeline prevents that, though it would sort of work. Tirek could not have had escaped before It’s About Time, while Starlight’s tutelage had to have started at least a decade before that. Also, I don’t think Tirek’s views mesh with equalism well at all.

Any other old generation villains nobody mentioned in Gen4 yet?

Maybe Starlight junior drilled a portal into Tartarus and stole and education from the various bottled evil inside. And one of them mind wammied her.

That sort of is a possibility, but she’d have to have been in Ponyville for that, most likely. Falling into Tartarus is a concern in Ponyville, according to Celestia. :)

[Mitch H]

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Any other old generation villains nobody mentioned in Gen4 yet?

Maybe Catrina?

That sort of is a possibility, but she’d have to have been in Ponyville for that, most likely. Falling into Tartarus is a concern in Ponyville, according to Celestia

You know I think Tartarus is a portal-accessible gate to a hell-world. Could be whisper-gallery micro-portals elsewhere, not suitable for escape, but dandy for corrupting young minds eager for knowledge and willing to dabble in daemonism.

I don't agree that Starlight is incapable of originating her ideology all on her lonesome. Young leaders like Joseph Smith were performing similar feats of intellectual creativity at the same age.

[DannyJ]

All very fascinating stuff, and I thank you for doing all this research for us. It's something to ponder, certainly. If nothing else, I'll definitely have to invent an OC to fill this Other Sith role in my own fics, just in case I ever fall sick and write a Starlight fic in my delirious state.

Other interesting things to note:

While I agree that the Other Sith is probably not Tirek for both timing and character reasons, it is notable that Tirek and Starlight employ similar kinds of magic. Tirek's draining of magic from ponies also removes a cutie marks. It's a side-effect, not the intent, but it suggests that Starlight's cutie-unmarking could work by similar principles, at least.

And I think attention should also be paid to Starlight's cutie mark itself, and its significance to all this. It's a falling star. What could that symbolise, and what talent might that be tied to? We can theorise in any number of directions, but personally, I've always liked to believe that Starlight's talent is bringing down others. Cutie-unmarking is basically that - she makes people equal by handicapping them. And hell, from a meta perspective, she's still doing that now - every other character is incompetent or an idiot so that Starlight can shine.

[Oliver]

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Maybe Catrina?

Does somewhat fit.

I don’t agree that Starlight is incapable of originating her ideology all on her lonesome. Young leaders like Joseph Smith were performing similar feats of intellectual creativity at the same age.

Well, she certainly couldn’t both originate the ideology and teach herself magic. Has to be one of the two, way too time-consuming otherwise. :)

I did mention the ~50 unaccounted for cutie marks in storage. It could be that the ideology was the Other Sith’s concession to Starlight in exchange for doing what the Other Sith needed: getting a large number of extracted cutie marks… I still think some prior art on the ideology would have to be involved, even Joseph Smith started from an existing base.

[Oliver]

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It’s a side-effect, not the intent, but it suggests that Starlight’s cutie-unmarking could work by similar principals, at least.

Considering all the cutie marks unaccounted for, it could be the intent. Just not Starlight’s own.

Wait. Could it be that Sendak, Tirek’s teacher, somehow survived?…

And I think attention should also be paid to Starlight’s cutie mark itself, and its significance to all this. It’s a falling star. What could that symbolise, and what talent might that be tied to?

That’s a very good interpretation, certainly. But it comes with its own fridge horror: If this is the true meaning of her mark, she is never going to be truly rid of it, no matter how much she wishes to redeem herself. Only a complete reinvention would save her, and I’m not sure how this could be accomplished.

[journcy]

Fascinating stuff. There are a few problems that I think could potentially be hand-waved—especially Starlight's apparent magical growth between The Cutie Map and The Cutie Re-mark—but for the most part this is quite compelling. I'm very excited to see what this season has in store for us, because if the writing keeps up like it has, I think this could easily be one of the best seasons of the show.

[DannyJ]

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Considering all the cutie marks unaccounted for, it could be the intent. Just not Starlight’s own.

I meant Tirek. Removing cutie marks wasn't Tirek's intent, just a side effect of what he was doing.

Wait. Could it be that Sendak, Tirek’s teacher, somehow survived?…

Possible!

If this is the true meaning of her mark, she is never going to be truly rid of it, no matter how much she wishes to redeem herself.

Well, cutie marks in general present this kind of conundrum. Are ponies slaves to their cutie marks? Do characters with "good" cutie marks and talents like "making people happy" have the potential to turn evil, or are they saints no matter what? The question of "evil" cutie marks is just the inverse of that. If ponies have free will, then it stands to reason that they can reject their own talents and cutie marks if their moral codes are against them. Starlight herself demonstrated that by founding an ideology based on the rejection and removal of cutie marks. So I'd think if anyone could overcome having a special talent like that, it would be her.

[Cursed Quill]

“My village was a sanctuary of equality, where nopony’s cutie mark allowed them to feel superior! Guess she's nopony, just like Odysseus.

Starlight’s turnaround seems a bit strange in the dramatic sense.

You said it!

She has unique magical skills in manipulating cutie marks that nobody reports being able to replicate, which edge dangerously close to the feat that gave Twilight wings.

Twi got wings from Ph.D.-ing (that is to say, expanding the field with new knowledge) one of Starswirl's spells. Glimmer's time portal spell seems like it's exactly that.
She does, however, lack at least two factors that might be required to gain wings:
❧a magic-enhancing artifact (like the Element of Magic), as most fans believe
❧a sponsor (that is, another cerapterra like Celestia saying "yeah you can join the club")
4514707

[why not] attempt to drag such a potentially dangerous witness consultant in.

Maud combines Earth Pony strength and some of Pinkie's inexplicable magic. (The Gift of Maud Pie shows her horror-slasher teleporting, that is, the style of "if the camera is not on you, you can be anywhere". It's very possible that Starlight couldn't drag her back.

4514774
She is pretty exactly the Handicapper General out of Harrison Bergeron, just without having a pre-conquered society…

Crack Theory hypothesis: Sunburst is the Other Sith, having moved up to the Crystal Empire and filled a house with magical theory books, possibly from Sombra's collection.

[mastermenthe]

The best/worst part of your theory: any of your followers, Oliver, who read this blog, can steal this idea and make fanfiction where their special snowflake self insert OC is "The Other Sith"!

[Shrink Laureate]

Here's a thought. Perhaps the cutie mark removal spell does more than it says on the tin? Perhaps it also allows Starlight to personally steal some part of the pony's special talent. That could be used as a shortcut to training, allowing her to pick up a bunch of specific tricks during the course of season 5 by hunting down the ponies with those talents. She could look for the strongest teleporter, the best self-levitator, and whatever you call those insta blocks of crystal in a conscious effort to boost herself in advance of facing an enemy whose magical strengths she knows.

Prior to losing Our Town her philosophy might have led to her holding back on that aspect, for fear of standing out too much. But after it she's desperate and hungry for victory.

That could even explain her ability to find Star Swirl's spell. Even if there isn't a physical catalogue, there's probably an elderly librarian who knows where everything is... or used to until a nice young mare approached him in the street.

It doesn't answer all your questions, but it could make for a good story...

[DannyJ]

4515008

This is actually a brilliant theory, and I love it. It doesn't just explain Starlight's power jump between her first two appearances. It explains her magical prowess in general, potentially without even involving a hypothetical Other Sith. If we take this theory as a given, Starlight wouldn't have needed an extensive magical education. All she ever would've needed is something that all unicorns already have - one spell related to her special talent.

[Oliver]

4514968

Sunburst is the Other Sith, having moved up to the Crystal Empire and filled a house with magical theory books, possibly from Sombra’s collection.

Did think about that. He doesn’t fit the role very well, mostly by virtue of his position during Starlight’s formative years being well defined: SGU is a boarding school. Celestia knows where he was. Literally. :)

4515003

The best/worst part of your theory: any of your followers, Oliver, who read this blog, can steal this idea and make fanfiction where their special snowflake self insert OC is “The Other Sith”!

Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha. :)

Hey, it is a canon hole, one that stands very little chance of getting filled… you know what we fanfiction writers do with those, right? We write into them.

4515008

Here’s a thought. Perhaps the cutie mark removal spell does more than it says on the tin?

This is really clever. It gets rid of the objective need for the Other Sith to exist entirely, and it comes with its own dramatic opportunities.

There is, however, one reason you may still want the Other Sith to exist: Starlight’s friendlian excuse.

One of Starlight’s weakest character points is the temporal gap between the perceived slight that causes her entire turn to evil – cutie mark triggering the start of Sunburst’s misshapen career, – and the moment it manifests into observed evil, which contains no end of opportunities for Starlight to help herself or for someone else to help Starlight. She never tried to contact Sunburst again, despite having ample opportunity, never asked his parents for his mailing address to write him a letter. Nobody wanted to try being friends with her. She never made friends with ponies who already had their cutie marks after she somehow got hers. Nobody wrote her a love letter just because she’s pretty. Etc, etc.

This is justifiably seen as really weak, and I remember at least two reaction stories that basically have Twilight say in response, “What, that’s it?” Actually, most stories that turn back to this moment do one or another variation on this.

Your ability-stealing theory explains the “how” really well, but does nothing to explain the why.

Unless, some parts of that pony’s personality also transfer to Starlight, and the first cutie mark she stole belonged to someone extremely odd… But that in itself would be a variation on the Other Sith. :)

[mastermenthe]

4515346

Starlight’s friendlian excuse.

That is the best pony ism, changing freud to friend, i can see that being a canon ponified name for pony freud.

[Mitch H]

4514968 Except that makes nonsense of both Sunburst and Starlight's character arcs in the Crystalling. But we know she's prone towards seeking out theoriticans, maybe she sought a replacement for Sunburst.

But seriously, what if the Other Sith is basically Starlight's Tyler Durden? "I'm everything you wanted to be." Pony Durden provided the bad philosophy, Starlight provided the massive capacity and raw natural talent for magic. And all it costs is continuous soul-warping insomnia.

4515346 All is solved if neither of them have parents, and those ponies we saw were overburdened fosterers. But my headcanon for Starlight is that she was traumatized before she met Sunburst. His disappearance was the last straw, not the whole load.

[Eruantalon]

4515346 I see Starlight's behavior as unusual, but not inexplicable. Remember, Starlight perceived Sunburst as having abandoned her; I can easily see her thinking that at the time not just later. Perhaps his parents shipped him off to school while she was out of town for some reason? Perhaps they'd sworn to stay together forever or something as foals some years back, and she remembered it but he didn't? Perhaps he said at first he didn't want to go but changed his mind later?

As for her getting her cutie mark... Alara Rogers speculated she got it late. Really late.

So, the question is why nopony else tried being and staying friends with her before she got her cutie mark. To which I answer: What about Twilight? Starlight and Sunburst are seen together in a library, and from Sunburst's known later personality, they would've spent a whole lot of time there. Just like Twilight, I can see Starlight escaping making new friends.

[Oliver]

4515501

But seriously, what if the Other Sith is basically Starlight’s Tyler Durden?

They know things that Starlight has no reasonable way of finding out, and that needs to be accounted for somehow. Otherwise, it is of course an option.

Actually, consider Nightmare Starlight: mind-invading entity from the dream realms, who sought out a child who just had a traumatic experience, and started corrupting her…

All is solved if neither of them have parents, and those ponies we saw were overburdened fosterers.

Obvious familial resemblance to Sunburst’s very distinctive coloration kind of rules it out.

4515506

Perhaps they’d sworn to stay together forever or something as foals some years back, and she remembered it but he didn’t?

Wouldn’t she cite that one to Twilight, though?

To which I answer: What about Twilight?

Twilight did have ponies who wanted to be her friends. She never wanted friends, and never felt betrayed, so she hid from those ponies in the library because the library felt more interesting. I.e. Starlight can escape making new friends if she never wants any, but her whole operation is about creating a village of ponies who will never abandon her, so she did want them all along…

[Shrink Laureate]

4515346
4515506

So, the question is why nopony else tried being and staying friends with her before she got her cutie mark.

It's quite likely that other ponies tried, but failed. Kids are clumsy, selfish idiots. What one thinks of as a friendly overture, another can perceive as a slight.

4515126
4515501

Unless, some parts of that pony’s personality also transfer to Starlight, and the first cutie mark she stole belonged to someone extremely odd… But that in itself would be a variation on the Other Sith. :)

But seriously, what if the Other Sith is basically Starlight's Tyler Durden?

An ambiguously imaginary mentor, formed of the absorbed abilities and thoughts she isn't able to integrate? That could actually work really well. It could be written as thoroughly creepy. Ideas...

---

A few days after Sunburst left for the SGU, Starlight is alone in the school yard. She's often alone. As an orphan she assumed it was because the other kids disliked her, while in reality they were unsure of how to approach her. Sunburst had been the only one to break through that barrier, and now he was gone. Starlight feels betrayed.

A colt approaches her, trying to show off his neat new magical talent. He's overly friendly, pushing into her personal space, badgering Starlight into trying to do magic as well. Magic was never her strength, but she has to try to get him to stop. Without explanation, the other foal's cutie mark peels off his flank, draining him of his talent. The cutie mark circles around Starlight's head accusingly. In desperation she grabs a flowerpot and hides the cutie mark under it. The colt's filly friend, who was watching this, smashes the flowerpot and the cutie mark returns.

Cruel stories about her spread among the foals and other ponies of the town, further isolating her. Everywhere she goes, harsh looks and whispered words follow her. The appearance of her own cutie mark is a time of suffering rather than joy. Just as Sunburst's cutie mark drove the two of them apart, Starlight's own isolated her from everypony else.

Isolated and alone, she's easy prey for a madpony, a mare with multiple personalities. The mare corners her, talking in multiple voices around the knife clutched in her throat. Starlight's spell goes off again, robbing the mare of her cutie mark and her voice.

At that moment another figure approaches Starlight, an older filly with an = for a cutie mark. The older filly bucks the mare in the head, smacking her knife away and stunning the mare. She tells Starlight to trap the cutie mark in a jar and keep it safe. The two escape with the jar.

The older filly tells Starlight that cutie marks are a curse, that they cause endless problems. Her own cutie mark was replaced with an = when she realised this.

She teaches Starlight to seek out criminals and bad ponies, those that society hasn't taken care of or can't cope with, and remove their talents. They become vigilantes, seeking out evil. To disguise her identity she wears a mask, and covers up her cutie mark with an =, just like her mentor's. The two act together on every mission, and find great amusement in the fact of newspapers reporting just one vigilante, not two.

With each villain she defeats and each cutie mark she takes, Starlight's own abilities grow...

---

I appear to have a superhero origin story.

[Oliver]

4515547

I appear to have a superhero origin story.

Now you have to actually write it. :)

[Shrink Laureate]

4515552
It's not like I have hundreds of other things to write. It's not like my EqG/AU epic mystery is nearing completion and demanding all my attention. It's not like fans are clamouring for more Admiral Shimmer stories. It's not like my HiE/PoE that's a deep analogy for the OSI reference model needs work. It's not like my fic about Spike's destiny demands attention. It's not like I have a pile of half-planned stories that I really really want to finish...

Baka.

[Oliver]

4515554

Baka.

Yes, giving people ideas is the most deliciously evil thing in the world. :)

[Shrink Laureate]

I'll leave it on the back burner for now. Like a Bolognese sauce, I like my stories to slowly simmer, growing richer as ingredients are added to them.

Anybody want to collab?

[Oliver]

4515582

Anybody want to collab?

I might, but I probably wouldn’t do this form of the idea justice.

[Shrink Laureate]

4515591
You could be a contributor of ideas and a picker of nits. Not everybody has to be a writer of words. No rush. It's at best #3 or #4 on my writing pile.

[DannyJ]

4515547

That's definitely an idea, alright.

Let me know when you have it written, and you might accomplish the rare feat of getting me to upvote a Starlight fic.

[Shrink Laureate]

4515674
If only the site had a mechanism for that...

[Cursed Quill]

4515501
Well, we were already positing that SlG's mmory had been altered…

[Eruantalon]

4515582 4515593 When/if you get around to that, I'd be glad to also help with bouncing ideas off and picking nits!

[Shrink Laureate]

4516571
Cool. I made a scribblething.

[howard035]

Super creepy. It seems like you're implying that once Starlight filled all 100 spaces in the rock, her master would come and consume the cutie marks.

As usual you've consolidated a formidable amount of data to paint a picture here. There are only a few things I question. Is Starlight really only 27? I would have clocked her at like 35-40, along with Sunburst. That said, I didn't realize before now that Starlight's founding of Our Town only happened a few years ago. Guess those foals we saw in town were brought in with their parents, not raised there. I think we can pretty much rule out the idea that Starlight didn't found Our Town though, there's just too much evidence otherwise.

Also, I'm not that impressed that Starlight got access to the Starswirl the Bearded Wing and the Cutie Map. It seems like a fairly logical deduction that if you want the most powerful magic around, go the restricted wing of the Equestrian Library. From what we saw, security isn't actually that impressive. And Starlight could have been sneaking into the Friendship Castle every night for months and studying the map while Twilight and Spike slept. Not that her hacking together two magical artifacts isn't possibly the most awesome and complex spell we've ever seen, just I don't think initial access was a huge challenge.

You know what's huge? The ponies we saw in the background with blank flanks. Not equal signs, just blank flanks. What if removing the cutie mark and adding the equal sign are actually two different spells, with two different sets of effects, that Starlight casts simultaneously?

Anywho, after reviewing the comics as well, I don't have any strong theories. I like 4515008 's theory. A Starlight Tyler Durden who's power and knowledge grows whenever she removes a cutie mark makes a lot of sense. Assuming Starlight still isn't aware of it, it explains why she hasn't gone to Twilight to report the Other Sith as threat to Equestria. It explains how the Other Sith finds Starlight and teaches her magic in different times in her life, even as she's wandering around the country staying off the grid. My problem with the theory is that it requires us to believe that Starlight has stolen the cutie marks of half of the top unicorns in Equestria, even temporarily, without getting caught doing so.

The Sendak seems another strong candidate. In the comics, he was able to slowly and efficiently drain the magic and cutie mark from a unicorn, unlike ol-brute force Tirek. I could definitely see him still being around after a millenium, since ingesting magic seems to rejuvenate you to make you young. It would explain the big cutie mark wall, since Starlight was probably planning to give the cutie marks to Sendak once she filled up the wall. Sendak may have known how to hide Our Town from whatever senses Tirek and Discord were using to hunt down ponies. The big weakness for me is: Starlight would definitely have told Twilight about an evil centaur roaming the wilderness who taught her magic for a decade or so. Even if her memories were wiped to forget Sendak, I feel like missing such a huge portion of her life would mean that kind of memory wipe would leave obvious traces Twilight would pick up over the course of a year.

I've mentioned Starswirl. He has the knowledge, as a free roaming time traveler he could certainly locate and contact Starlight anywhere, and his excuse of "don't tell anyone about me Starlight or you'll violate the temporal continuum!" Would probably keep her mouth shut. The biggest weakness for Starswirl is motive. Why would he help this obviously crazy girl learn such dangerous and dark magic? Maybe if we see Starlight's removing cutie marks spell save Equestria in the future, then I will revisit this theory, but until then I can't see his motive.

I am forced to conclude that Starlight's Other Sith is most likely a malevolent sapient kite that she worships.

[Oliver]

4516735

Super creepy. It seems like you’re implying that once Starlight filled all 100 spaces in the rock, her master would come and consume the cutie marks.

I don’t think this would happen as she filled up the wall, if only because the wall did not exist at the time Our Town was founded, and she needed to ask Maud to find it. But if she were indeed stealing cutie marks with the intent to eventually deliver them unto the Other Sith for whatever purposes that person needs them, a limit after which she would pack them up and deliver is likely.

Also there is something I didn’t mention in the notes which I should have – in fact, I think I’ll add it into the post, that’s how important it is: Starlight orders to remove the Mane 6 marks from the wall at some point, just as Fluttershy is about to go steal them back. Why?

Because they’re special:

Double Diamond: Of course, but I don’t understand why you wanted me to bring them here. Fluttershy is one of us now. Surely she can be trusted.
Starlight Glimmer: This one belongs to a princess. It could be very important to our cause.
Double Diamond: But if Twilight Sparkle becomes our friend, then why do we care about this old cutie mark?
Starlight Glimmer: I just want to keep them close until everything is… settled. You may go, Double Diamond.

Is Starlight really only 27? I would have clocked her at like 35-40, along with Sunburst.

My best estimate so far is that at the start of the series, Twilight is ~19, (Out of high school level education for about one year, working on university level mostly from books under Celestia’s guidance) the Mane 5 are 20-25, (Own small businesses or have steady jobs) with Applejack and Rarity being the eldest, Shining Armor and Cadance are ~30. While I don’t have anything but looks and apparent level of maturity to go on, Starlight is ~5 years older than Twilight, about Applejack’s age. Since at least 2 years have passed since series start at this point, possibly 3, Starlight would be 26-27 years old. We don’t have good canonical indications to put a finger on any of those numbers except the age difference between Twilight and Shining Armor/Cadance generation, they are all guesses.

Placing Starlight as any older only widens the canon hole, though.

You know what’s huge? The ponies we saw in the background with blank flanks. Not equal signs, just blank flanks. What if removing the cutie mark and adding the equal sign are actually two different spells, with two different sets of effects, that Starlight casts simultaneously?

That, actually, is very likely.

My problem with the theory is that it requires us to believe that Starlight has stolen the cutie marks of half of the top unicorns in Equestria, even temporarily, without getting caught doing so.

Shouldn’t be that much harder than getting access to Star Swirl’s wing. In fact, she could camp out at the entrance to Canterlot Archives and get them all – as long as the process can be erased from the memory of the victim once the mark is returned… :) Powerful unicorns are known to congregate.

Turning up in the School for Gifted Unicorns as a janitor or something would also do it.

The big weakness for me is: Starlight would definitely have told Twilight about an evil centaur roaming the wilderness who taught her magic for a decade or so. Even if her memories were wiped to forget Sendak, I feel like missing such a huge portion of her life would mean that kind of memory wipe would leave obvious traces Twilight would pick up over the course of a year.

That is a problem, yes. But notice that she never talks about this period of her life.

Finding out just when did she acquire the kiting hobby would go a long way towards figuring this out.

The biggest weakness for Starswirl is motive. Why would he help this obviously crazy girl learn such dangerous and dark magic? Maybe if we see Starlight’s removing cutie marks spell save Equestria in the future, then I will revisit this theory, but until then I can’t see his motive.

That’s the problem with Star Swirl – he could conceivably fill just about any canon hole, if only we could find a motive for him to do something so crazy. :)

[howard035]

4516913

Placing Starlight as any older only widens the canon hole, though.

It does, I just thought her looks and maturity felt more like 15 years older than Twilight than 5, but it probably doesn't matter anyway.

as long as the process can be erased from the memory of the victim once the mark is returned

Depending on the number of cutie marks, I feel like Starlight just has to get really really lucky that no one escapes her initial attack before they can be drained and mind-whammied. Then again, this would make her a type of vampire, and Equestria's resident vampires recently kidnapped the ten most important individuals from Equestria and almost got away clean with it. Ponies are pretty darn trusting.

That’s the problem with Star Swirl – he could conceivably fill just about any canon hole, if only we could find a motive for him to do something so crazy. :)

Between when I posted this comic and this reply click the link if you don't mind HUGE spoilers. If you really want to be spoiled check this out

Oh and I think Starlight was using mind control magic on the ponies in Our Town. S6 Starlight gets frustrated with basic friendship problems enough to mind-control her new friends, but cult leader Starlight never resorts to that for two years? I don't think mind control was something she used constantly, but I suspect the "brainwashing hut" never really works, Starlight just lets someone cook in there for a few days, sneaks out at night and whammies them, and when the pony inside accepts Equalism or whatever, the brainwashing hut can explain the radical change in personality to her followers.

[Oliver]

4516924

Oh and I think Starlight was using mind control magic on the ponies in Our Town.

That’s possible, and even likely, but why didn’t she do this during the first night when the Mane 6 were imprisoned? They certainly weren’t in a position to resist.

Maybe she reserves this for really stubborn cases…

[Oliver]

4516735

And Starlight could have been sneaking into the Friendship Castle every night for months and studying the map while Twilight and Spike slept.

Sudden thought. There is one, only one problem with that, but it’s a rather big one: Pinkie.

1. Pinkie has a habit of holding welcoming parties for any new resident of the town, which is initially defined as a pony she doesn’t know.
2. I think we can agree that to study the Cutie Map in detail, Starlight would need weeks or months.
3. For all of this time she would need to be in Ponyville. We know she was – at least, during What About Discord? we do see her hair poking out of the bush.
4. However, “weeks” or “months” imply she would require to evade Pinkie for the entire time of doing that.

I can believe evading Pinkie once or twice, but to evade a mare who bends time and space when it’s funny for months?

[Meta Four]

4516951

I can believe evading Pinkie once or twice, but to evade a mare who bends time and space when it’s funny for months?

I think Pinkie's powers don't work on the basis of "she can do anything as long as it's funny," but rather "she can do anything as long as it's funny enough to compensate for whatever she's breaking." Which is, of course, a very nebulous criterion. But basically, the more something "matters" (moreso to the audience then to the characters), the harder it is for Pinkie to fix it with her reality warping. Pinkie can decorate Twilight's castle in seconds for a medal ceremony just by pulling on a cord—because we don't give a damn about the actual logistics of decorating for an event of that magnitude. But Pinkie catching Starlight Glimmer in Ponyville? That would break the season finale before it could even happen, and no joke is funny enough to make up for that. So Pinkie can only catch Starlight via mundane means, and Starlight can evade those easily enough.

Yes, I do legitimately think that Pinkie's powers represent an intrusion of Doylist logic into Equestria.

[Oliver]

4516971

Yes, I do legitimately think that Pinkie’s powers represent an intrusion of Doylist logic into Equestria.

I’m stealing that.

[Rao the Red Sun]

Oliver: Excellent breakdown. Very well constructed. I might have to go back and finish up that blog on Equestrian culture as a peaceful fulfillment of Sith philosophy now that you have me thinking of them again.
4515547
This sort of touches on an idea I had but never really built a blog or story around: What if Starlight's equalization brought everypony up to the same standard, possibly by distributed access to a communal magic/talent pool, rather than down to the lowest common denominator? I think her movement would have had some very interesting traction with the public at large.
4516971
I need to hang out in these comment sections more. This is brilliant.

[Oliver]

4517002

This sort of touches on an idea I had but never really built a blog or story around

Well, you did write a blog post about it as far as I can see.

This would certainly make the equalism cult actually evolutionary beneficial. It is, of course, creepy, but I don’t see any immediate problems that could result if it worked as advertised.

But the more I think about all the observations I made above, the more it seems to me that either this wasn’t possible, or benefiting ponies was never a consideration for this entire project in the first place:

1. That dialog with Double Diamond pretty heavily implies that Starlight does not believe in equalism herself during her tenure as the cult leader. She thinks that being without the cutie mark might be beneficial for her cultists, but not for her. This is doubly surprising, because her friendlian excuse given immediately prior to defeat and subsequent statements imply the exact opposite.
2. The reason she wanted to keep the cutie marks of the Mane 6 close is that they’re special. How are discarded cutie marks “beneficial to our cause?” They aren’t. This is just a convenient way to shut up Double Diamond.

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the entire friendlian excuse is a sham and has always been. Someone suppressed the memory of her successfully getting over Sunburst leaving and finding a purpose in life that manifested her own mark. The current Starlight is clearly genuinely repentant, but she is repentant for things she has never actually done. She displays no memory of things supported by witness reports – the way she exploited genuine desires of ponies to be rid of their cutie marks to acquire cutie marks for purposes unknown – and instead thinks she “enslaved a village.”

It seems that she is a mole. And if DannyJ’s interpretation of her cutie mark – the falling star, the talent for bringing other ponies down – is correct, she is a ticking time bomb, designed specifically to bring down Twilight, and to bring her down hard.

Whether the new social environment Twilight created for her will win or she will just laugh at how silly she has been while being a friendship student is anyone’s guess…

[Shrink Laureate]

4517002
Of course, the equalisation doesn't need to actually bring ponies up to the same level, she just needs to be able to convince them that it can...

[howard035]

4516930

That’s possible, and even likely, but why didn’t she do this during the first night when the Mane 6 were imprisoned? They certainly weren’t in a position to resist.

Starlight was obviously very cautious in town. Even markless, 5 ponies that include an alicorn might be able to raise an alarm on her and get the attention of the rest of the town. She probably wanted to spend the first night clearing Fluttershy, then pick them off one by one. It would also be a bit suspicious if they all changed their minds within one day.

Maybe she reserves this for really stubborn cases…

I think she does. Another component: Based on the fact that mind-control magic is really prevalent but we don't see half the population going around with a vacant stare all the time, there needs to be limitations on the magic. I would suggest one likely limitation is that mind control magic is extremely hard to make last for a long time. Almost every time we've seen mind control magic used, the controller was working towards a short-term goal (break up the Elements of Harmony, make a friendship problem, solve a friendship problem) that wouldn't be undermined if the effects wear off in a few hours or days. The exceptions are either generated by a potion (Love Poison), a continuous enchantment on helmet (Sombra's soldiers), or an overwhelming magical artifact (Luna being 'redeemed' by the EoH).

So if Starlight's mind control only works for a day or two, it can still work in conjunction with the shed, assuming she combines it with memory wipes. Someone complains about the dry muffins, he gets a day in the shed. That night Starlight teleports in, mind controls him to accept the muffins, and wipes his memory of her presence. The next morning he proclaims he has realized the muffins are fine. Everyone else gets an object lesson in complaining about the muffins, and they all believe the shed works really well. Sure, 2 days later that guy is going to find the taste of muffins isn't enjoyable anymore, but is he going to speak up again? He certainly remembers how that night in the shed went.

The way I'm describing it, Starlight isn't relying heavily on her mind control, she's balancing it with the threat of the shed, and the enormous peer pressure of the cult to do most of the work. Of course, in that case memory modification would count as a form of permanent mind control.

4516951 While I agree with 4516971 's logic, I also am reminded of one of my favorite stories on this site. In it Luna suggested that as we study and learn more about a type of magic, its ability to surprise us with miracles is diminished. I think the show has done a fair amount of studying Pinkie, especially since we learned about her party cave and the fact that she actually buys supplies, to the point where I can now say I don't think Pinkie would have automatically known Starlight was there. Pinkie's Pinkie Sense only goes off for specific things, and I don't think it actually alerts her to new ponies in town. Pinkie also has to get up early almost every day as a baker. I think a pony who can teleport from Ponyville-Adjacent directly to the Map Room and do it from the hours of 1-3 AM could do that for several months and Pinkie wouldn't notice.

4517018

The current Starlight is clearly genuinely repentant, but she is repentant for things she has never actually done. She displays no memory of things supported by witness reports – the way she exploited genuine desires of ponies to be rid of their cutie marks to acquire cutie marks for purposes unknown – and instead thinks she “enslaved a village.”

Perhaps a side effect of memory modifcation is "redemption tourettes?"

[Oliver]

4518163

I would suggest one likely limitation is that mind control magic is extremely hard to make last for a long time.

That does seem like it would be a thing.

I think a pony who can teleport from Ponyville-Adjacent directly to the Map Room and do it from the hours of 1-3 AM could do that for several months and Pinkie wouldn’t notice.

Well, that, is possible, though it once again makes for an interesting story nobody seems to be telling us… :)

Perhaps a side effect of memory modifcation is “redemption tourettes?”

Imagine that suddenly, a mature, jaded, rather evil mare loses a keyword-selected section of her memory. A large one, that covers numerous events for the better part of two decades. Emotionally, she is thrown back to her childhood, even though intellectually, she remains largely intact.

She vividly remembers how she was abandoned by her only friend because that friend found a purpose in life, but does not remember how she found her own and how it helped her get over him. The experiences of emotional growth during her schooling years are almost entirely missing. None of the skills she attained in this time or the knowledge about the world are gone, so she doesn’t notice. She still remembers the books she read. She still loves kites. She still loves magic. She still knows more of it than just about anyone around, although she doesn’t remember how. And as she tries to look back on her life, she grows distracted and thinks of something else she remembers so much better: the last couple of years.

The village she spent those years in.

And her emotional self, the little filly with no cutie mark, is terrified of what she remembers. The subtleties, the way these ponies came there of their own free will, seeking relief from internal crises, fly over her head entirely, she doesn’t understand them at all. All she does understand, is that she imposed her will on them, her own unquestioning belief – the belief that the little filly with no cutie mark had for a short while, which is still fresh in her mind for some reason she can’t understand and doesn’t really care about – that cutie marks are evil, because they take friends away. Never mind that so many of them believed just as strongly in not being special. Right now, that’s entirely unimportant for her, if she even recognizes that fact.

But she isn’t that filly anymore, not really. She has the intellectual capacity of a mature pony, the capability for introspection a filly did not have. And when applying this capability to herself in the past two years, she is sure that all she really wanted was friends who would never abandon her, and to make sure they could not, she enslaved them, bound them to herself, tried to take over their souls. She is terrified of what she has done just recently, when she recklessly endangered the entire world over petty revenge, and does not remember why she did, it, doesn’t want to introspect further, because that would mean admitting she’s still a stupid little filly.

There’s nothing a little filly would hate more than that.

And her new friends, they are kind and accepting. They take what she says at face value and don’t pry, because good friends know when a friend needs some space to work out what’s going on inside. All they can really do is give her time. Maybe make a joke or two about it, if they’re feeling like egging her on. It’s not like they should go and investigate, after all, she’s their best friend’s student, now. It would not be pedagogical.

And that teacher friend, she is so fascinated with the subject of friendship itself, so excited to share everything she learned, that she can be blind to a staggering number of things.

Notice how Starlight appears to be so much younger after her heel-face turn?

[Sunny]

I find this interesting, but my issue is it relies on assuming your timeline is fully accurate, of course.

And, well - I totally respect the work that's gone into it but there's a lot in there I'd disagree on the dating of. Like, sure, all episodes don't occur in the order they occur in-world, but - the most common theory I see is Seasons 1 to the S4 premiere all take place in a single year. That? That I readily admit I have never bought. That gives us 6 near-world-ending threats in a single year and 1 major apotheosis in Twilight's ascension. And while I'd call the timeline wibbly-wobbly (Like Luna Eclipsed is probably in Fall Year 1), overall I feel that it has at least 2 years worth of shenanigans taking place there, if not 3. The 1-year theory is almost always pointed to because of Celestia's line in the S4 premiere and that has ambiguity in it, and without that everything else goes back to 'This could happen in any number of places'.

Like, for example - I have a hard time seeing Hearth's Warming Eve occurring before Winter Wrap Up. Twilight in WWU is just too...immature relative to HWE Twilight.

The strongest argument in favor of the shorter timeline is probably Tank - though Tanks for the Memories could just occur significantly earlier than the rest of S5, as well.

(But, of course, in the end I subscribe to 'The writers simply didn't think that hard, and let Equestria become what's most fun for me to envision )

[Oliver]

4518298

I find this interesting, but my issue is it relies on assuming your timeline is fully accurate, of course.

Even if you remove that one argument, you still have all the others, and most importantly, if you extend the series timeline, you don’t invalidate a thing: Our Town was founded during the series run, and did not survive all that long.

I’m only guessing at the timeline of Season 4 at this point, but there’s one clear fact: Almost all episodes of Season 4, with very few exceptions, are locked between two endpoints and cannot be moved outside them. They cannot happen after Tirek destroys the Golden Oak Library, and they cannot happen before Twilight acquires her wings, and both of these things prominently feature on screen. And Pinkie is pretty explicit that Maud is leaving for her doctorate studies shortly after the episode which introduces her.

the most common theory I see is Seasons 1 to the S4 premiere all take place in a single year. That? That I readily admit I have never bought.

But the trend continues and actually gets stronger – see May The Best Pet Win / Tanks For The Memories lock. That’s unambiguously what the canon wants us to think: There are no more than three seasons of the year between these two events, because Rainbow has never observed Tank hibernating. The first of these two episodes happens before Twilight gets her wings, while the second one happens when she already has her castle. The entire Season 4 as well as Magical Mystery Cure have to fit between the two.

You could just say the calendar is a lie, but I never said you couldn’t get a better Equestria if you divorce the canon entirely. I just said that it’s prudent to be very conscious of when you do that and what kind of aftermarket parts you’re gluing on to make it make sense.

My blog index starts with a post about that. :)

[Sunny]

4518304 Well, I might have missed the line but does it explicitly confirm Starlight is meet by Maud when Maud is studying? She could just have been out there for a noon rocktorate reason.

As for the Tanks issue, that says that the episode airing order isn't necessarily timeline, sure - but all that does is lock MMC, S4, and Tanks. Nothing else is pinned by that but a couple S3 episodes from what I can tell.

[Oliver]

4518703

Well, I might have missed the line but does it explicitly confirm Starlight is meet by Maud when Maud is studying? She could just have been out there for a noon rocktorate reason.

Maud Pie: [deadpan] I traveled Equestria for my rocktorate dissertation.

As for the Tanks issue, that says that the episode airing order isn’t necessarily timeline, sure - but all that does is lock MMC, S4, and Tanks. Nothing else is pinned by that but a couple S3 episodes from what I can tell.

Only the episode Maud Pie is relevant for this particular discussion, and it is pinned:

Pinkie Pie: Can’t tell ya that, silly! [whispering] It’s a secret! [speaking normally] Now that Maud is heading out to get her rocktorate in rock science, this may be our last chance to trade them for a really long time.

[howard035]

4518276

Notice how Starlight appears to be so much younger after her heel-face turn?

I think you've come up with a really good theory that explains so much about what still seems "off" about Starlight and her history!

My next question would then be: When did she get whammied by her own mentor? I don't think he could have done it before the time-travel shenanigans if Starlight needed all her skills and emotional motivation, but it would need to be really quickly after her redemption. Like, the first night after she is officially made Twilight's student, but before the montage of her befriending everyone.

Unrelated but inspired by this thread: The true villain of Aporia will be A cult of doylist religious fanatics, because what is a religious fanatic but a doylist that is slightly less meta?