Points of Canon: S5x20 - Hearthbreakers

Yes, this is how I relax.

This is a Hearth’s Warming episode, and it deals with one of the crazier parts of pony universe: the Pie family. And rock farming. It has a lot of useful far-reaching tidbits.

• This is in backwards order, but – remember the A Hearth’s Warming Tail POC post? Lemon Hearts is hanging out with a completely different stallion this year. She sure gets around.
• Twilight’s Castle has a fireplace which at least at some point contained actual fire, judging by the soot. Fireplaces are kind of uncommon.
• The tradition of hanging Hearth’s Warming Dolls by the fireplace, which are meant to depict those who are already present at the fireplace (and presumably, those who would be present but could not attend, because otherwise this feels very redundant) smells of sympathetic magic, which is an idea ponies generally don’t seem to spell out. It’s impossible not to notice the magical significance of the dolls if any sympathetic magic ideas work in the pony world at all…
• The whole Spike opening the presents the night before, rather than on the morning after, implies that Spike and Twilight spend the Hearth’s Warming Eve together often, if not every single time. But this is a family holiday, and the episode spends a lot of time elaborating on that aspect. If there is a strict canonical indication that Spike is part of Twilight’s family one way or another, this is it.
• One of the sweets available on the train is a “windigo frosted snowcone,” which sounds like an interesting piece of marketing. You mostly get away with that sort of thing if nobody actually believes windigoes were real except children.

• 1. Note that throughout Scare Master, cutie marks on CMC are obscured, so it can be backdated.

  Apple Bloom sports her cutie mark, which limits the position of this episode in the timeline.¹

• The gingerbread copy of the flag of the Two Sisters only has five stars on it. Which I suspect is closer to the historical one than the modern flag – if it has any similarities to the flag of the US, which I think it does, every star denotes a “state” joining Equestria under the protection of the Two Sisters. Journal of the Two Sisters lists four possible original signatories – the three independent tribally pure polities originally detailed in Hearth’s Warming Eve and the Crystal Empire. Which one is the fifth star? It can’t be Timbucktu, since by the time that got destroyed by Chrysalis as detailed in FIENDship is Magic #5 it was apparently still independent (and Celestia did not interfere) – which leaves only Trot, if it’s any of those we know at all…
• One of the ceremonies is flag raising. Which basically sets the position of the holiday as a combination of Christmas (a celebration of social bonds) and Independence Day (a celebration of national unity) – i.e. in pony minds the two notions are conflated to a significant degree. Applejack’s “…dinner, to remember the shared bounties of our ancestors” suggests there are shades of Thanksgiving thrown in there as well…
• Pinkie shocks Applejack by using 19 hooves to count. Her bending reality definitely isn’t just a narrative device, not that there still was any doubt by that point.
• Maud determining that Applejack went sledding yesterday because of rock shards on her hoof is par for the course. Applejack not washing her hooves at all since yesterday is somewhat troubling.
• Pie family inherits the “Pie” component of names, but no change of name occurred upon marriage. Igneous Rock Pie is the son of Feldspar Granite Pie, but Cloudy Quartz has no pie in her name.
• Marble’s cutie mark depicts not marble the mineral, but marbles the round stone balls. I wonder how that works.
• Marble Pie is a few minutes younger than Pinkie Pie. Which is only statistically possible if they’re twins. Since Marble is also the youngest Pie, and the flashback in The Cutie Mark Chronicles makes it impossible for Limestone to be significantly older than the two, (Maud is not present in that flashback) it means that Cloudy Quartz is either the mother of all Pie sisters or none of them. Pinkie always calls her “mom…”
• Pie Family’s double deck bed includes an interesting pony-adapted ladder.
• The upstairs room contains a lamp with a very characteristic spherical bulb. In fact, the entire holiday illumination of the farm is not practical without electricity or a functionally equivalent magical analogue. Pies are surprisingly more advanced in some respects than most Ponyville ponies…
• The entire practice of eating stone is one of the most dubious things about the Pie family in general, especially considering that Applejack can’t replicate it. Another notable thing is that this family does not use spoons.
• Unlike most other families, Pies apparently create new dolls every year, and everypony makes a doll of themselves.
• The historical first flag of Equestria was sewn by one Nimble Thimble, and this is something “everypony knows.”
• Rock farming still involves a substantial amount of subterranean work called mining. I imagine some minerals grow in geodes on the surface, while others require subterranean conditions…
• Granny Smith is in the market for remarriage, and is interested in the pairing/choosing stone for that reason. Where is that stone, anyway? A tradition like that implies a larger community than just the Pie family.
• The whole revelation that most years, nopony gets presents, and that the whole raising the flag tradition is reduced to dancing around the fact that there’s no flagpole, presents a rather particular childhood for Pinkie, even with the later revelations that at least some of the practices have known, inobvious reasons. Which kind of clashes with the christmas lights decorating every building. I’m not sure how to resolve that.
• Pinkie uses a candle for the night light, which is, as I mentioned before, quite uncommon in the pony world. But what’s more interesting is that the candle is set in a kerosene lamp glass covering a normal candle holder. This thing is patently weird.
• Pinkie shares a bed with all three of her sisters. Which suggests that they evacuated the upstairs room where the Apples are bunked to make room. And since Maud is the eldest, this is probably her bed…
• Pinkie is a confirmed familyholic, not that we didn’t know that already.
• The peculiar shape of Holder’s Boulder, as well as its original location, imply that it could be a prehistoric dragon egg. They also imply that in the past, more dragons existed in Equestria than do now, even if just by a few. There’s definitely something fishy dragony about it, if only because it’s so heavy that it frustrates the efforts of some of the strongest earth ponies shown to move it.

The million dollar question posed by this episode is… where did Cloudy Quartz come from? Because it has to be a whole community of ponies who would have to behave similarly to the Pies.

Comments

[iisaw]

But what’s more interesting is that the candle is set in a kerosene lamp glass covering a normal candle holder. This thing is patently weird.

These are uncommon, but actually exist. The glass chimney makes the candle burn cleaner, drip less, and not flicker if you move around with it.

[Blue_Paladin42]

4099479
And maybe not set the house on fire if you forget about it and fall asleep. Make it less likely anyway.

[howard035]

Yes, this is how I relax.

Could be worse, you could be the guy who reads it and nitpicks things to relax.

The whole Spike opening the presents the night before, rather than on the morning after, implies that Spike and Twilight spend the Hearth’s Warming Eve together often, if not every single time. But this is a family holiday, and the episode spends a lot of time elaborating on that aspect. If there is a strict canonical indication that Spike is part of Twilight’s family one way or another, this is it

Based on the comic in question, my guess is Twilight and Spike spend the night before together just the two of them (when Spike opens his book-present), and then spend the next day with the parents.

You mostly get away with that sort of thing if nobody actually believes windigoes were real except children.

I dunno, the Scrooge-ripoff made it seem pretty likely Windigos are real. Spirits are generally not allowed to lie, and the Hearth's Warming Ghost of Xmas Future didn't tell Starlight "ponies will lose their common harmony if you take away the holiday, and this will collapse civilization." No, she showed Starlight everyone being buried under tons of ice, like the Windigos had literally returned. (Though that was when the Crystal Empire hadn't been around to keep them at bay.)

Which one is the fifth star?

I would hope it represent the donkeys and cows and sheep. Even second-class citizens get some kind of representation. Or maybe Thestrals, but I go back and forth on whether they are real.

Applejack not washing her hooves at all since yesterday is somewhat troubling.

Or washing your hoofs doesn't remove rock shards from them. But then that is also troubling, since it suggests pony hooves are giant nail stubs like earth horse hooves.

Pie family inherits the “Pie” component of names, but no change of name occurred upon marriage. Igneous Rock Pie is the son of Feldspar Granite Pie, but Cloudy Quartz has no pie in her name.

Interesting. Mares don't change their names, but at least some families have a patrimonial name handed down, like these guys and the Riches.

it means that Cloudy Quartz is either the mother of all Pie sisters or none of them.

Glad it's confirmed Maud is the eldest, but was it ever seriously questioned that Cloudy is their mom?

not practical without electricity or a functionally equivalent magical analogue. Pies are surprisingly more advanced in some respects than most Ponyville ponies…

And the quarry below is filled with crystals, which we know in Equestria are the main magical sponge. I'm guessing the rock farm sits on ley lines and sells pre-charged magic crystals, and can cheaply power their lights with magic when not all ponies can.

The whole revelation that most years, nopony gets presents, and that the whole raising the flag tradition is reduced to dancing around the fact that there’s no flagpole, presents a rather particular childhood for Pinkie, even with the later revelations that at least some of the practices have known, inobvious reasons.

At the time it was suggested, and I agree now, that there were never any "hidden presents," the rock farm is just a lot poorer than Sweet Apple Acres, they can't afford presents many years, or fancy flagpoles.

The peculiar shape of Holder’s Boulder, as well as its original location, imply that it could be a prehistoric dragon egg. They also imply that in the past, more dragons existed in Equestria than do now, even if just by a few.

Well, we've seen dragons of Torche's size, a female version of him could lay an egg that big. But then nothing inside could peck it's way through the shell. Maybe that's why most dragons we see in the Dragon Lord episode are small, at some point dragons get too big to effectively breed, even if they will live for quite a while longer.

Because it has to be a whole community of ponies who would have to behave similarly to the Pies.

Seems straightforward to me. The Pie Rock farm is part of a large Amish-expy community, they all use the choosing stone. If it's old enough, I bet that thing is a prototype for the Crystal Heart.

[Oliver]

4100545

Based on the comic in question, my guess is Twilight and Spike spend the night before together just the two of them (when Spike opens his book-present), and then spend the next day with the parents.

Quite possible. Depends on how many state holiday days are in the whole thing, but I suspect ponies consider social communication so important, that there’s a whole week of winter devoted to train rides across Equestria to visit all your relatives.

I dunno, the Scrooge-ripoff made it seem pretty likely Windigos are real.

Notice, though, that neither Twilight nor Starlight affirmed their reality. Neither doubted the characters of the three tribes were real, but they thought windigoes weren’t.

My guess is that they actually did exist, but scientifically minded ponies just like to think otherwise, because all evidence has melted. That would explain why “A Hearth’s Warming Tail” the in-world story was written at all – it’s a re-affirmation of traditional values in the face of the advancement of pony civilization that seemingly makes them obsolete. Remember Snowfall Frost’s motto? “Work hard, learn, and use your skills to better Equestria.” That’s the sort of slogan that emerges when a culture thinks it knows everything and just before it bumps into quantum mechanics.

I would hope it represent the donkeys and cows and sheep. Even second-class citizens get some kind of representation. Or maybe Thestrals, but I go back and forth on whether they are real.

There is no canonical indication donkeys, cows, sheep or thestrals (if they even exist) ever had their own polities, but there isn’t an indication they never did, either.

Donkeys in particular seem to be an accepted national minority more than anything else, as evidenced by the existence of mules…

Or washing your hoofs doesn’t remove rock shards from them. But then that is also troubling, since it suggests pony hooves are giant nail stubs like earth horse hooves.

Maybe, polishing hooves so that things don’t keep stuck in the keratin is the primary reason for hooficure…

Interesting. Mares don’t change their names, but at least some families have a patrimonial name handed down, like these guys and the Riches.

There are multiple naming traditions in use, which are apparently family specific:

Apples have themed names, but no mandatory shared component.
Cakes have themed names and a shared component and both Cake parents are, well, Cakes.
Mr. Stripes is Stripes himself and his daughter is Plaid Stripes, so they’re probably like the Cakes.
Rarity is just Rarity and doesn’t seem to have a second name component, but Sweetie Belle has two components, and apparently, none of them are shared with their parents.
Fluttershy is just Fluttershy, but her brother is Zephyr Breeze. We don’t really know anything about their parents’ names except Rainbow calling them “Mr and Mrs. Shy” which is not very conclusive since Zephyr isn’t “Zephyr Breeze Shy.” And isn’t shy at all.
Hooffields and McColts have few names given on screen, but seem like they would follow the Pie model.
Males in the Rich family seem to get the “Rich” component, but Diamond Tiara doesn’t, and then there’s Spoiled Rich who seems to have come from nowhere…
Twilight’s family may or may not pass down the “Twilight” front part of the name in a matrilinear variation, but we don’t have enough evidence for a conclusion because we only ever see two generations.
Shining Armor and Cadance appear to have abandoned any traditions their families had prior when naming Flurry Heart. Cadance never liked “Mi Amore Cadenza” anyway.

Equestrian civil servants must have fits daily.

In general, earth ponies are more likely to both have more family members known and some sort of a naming system for the family, while unicorns typically seem to have smaller families and greater variety of names within. Pegasi are generally more solitary than either.

Glad it’s confirmed Maud is the eldest, but was it ever seriously questioned that Cloudy is their mom?

Lots of fanfics suggested a family history for Pinkie based on her having a different mother from all of her siblings, mostly to explain just why is she so different and why did she leave the farm.

In my opinion, the evidence is more in favor of her being sent away to live with the related Cakes because she’d be happier there. :)

And the quarry below is filled with crystals, which we know in Equestria are the main magical sponge. I’m guessing the rock farm sits on ley lines and sells pre-charged magic crystals, and can cheaply power their lights with magic when not all ponies can.

Possibly, though I wonder why Pinkie uses a candle and not her flashlight then.

At the time it was suggested, and I agree now, that there were never any “hidden presents,” the rock farm is just a lot poorer than Sweet Apple Acres, they can’t afford presents many years, or fancy flagpoles.

That one is pretty much a given. I wonder if Maud had to pay tuition for the education required on her path to rocktorate…

Well, we’ve seen dragons of Torche’s size, a female version of him could lay an egg that big. But then nothing inside could peck it’s way through the shell.

I kind of like the fanon that dragon eggs require highly magically charged dragonfire to complete the hatching process. I.e. they grow like a crystal within the stone for a long period, until it’s time to hatch them, whereupon the mother (and possibly the father, if any) has to breathe life into it. Mother lost to whatever calamity means an egg that remains a stone for eternity.

Seems straightforward to me. The Pie Rock farm is part of a large Amish-expy community, they all use the choosing stone. If it’s old enough, I bet that thing is a prototype for the Crystal Heart.

I wonder what the city center for this community is, though. Could it be Fillydelphia?

[howard035]

4100634

My guess is that they actually did exist, but scientifically minded ponies just like to think otherwise, because all evidence has melted.

Good point. I figured the Crystal Heart was at one point some kind of anti-windigo outpost (a Crystal Heart surge should fry Windigos in a thousand-mile radius like hot butter). But the existence of Yakyakistan sans Empire for a millenia suggests otherwise.

That’s the sort of slogan that emerges when a culture thinks it knows everything and just before it bumps into quantum mechanics.

Silly Victorian/Edwardian ponies!

Donkeys in particular seem to be an accepted national minority more than anything else, as evidenced by the existence of mules…

My experience is that most political symbols are a fudge more than anything. In the time of the 3 tribes, each tribe was also a nation, despite ponies living or moving in other circles, so they get a tribe. At the time of founding, Crystal Ponies seemed to be considered a different tribe, though whether there is any biological difference between them and other tribes seems unclear. But I could definitely see early politicians throwing on one more star to collectively represent all non-ponies as the non-pony tribe, it's stupid and condescending but not unrealistic.

There are multiple naming traditions in use, which are apparently family specific:

I always liked the idea that Rarity's full name is Rarity Bell, and like many ponies she doesn't see the need for a second name when she has her cutie mark as an extra identifier, so that name is on her birth certificate and nowhere else. Or the idea that ponies choose new names at their cutencera to match their talents if they want to (Alex Warlorn has the great idea that Diamond Tiara was named Tarnished Riches before her cutie mark appeared). But I suppose that just muddies it further.

Lots of fanfics suggested a family history for Pinkie based on her having a different mother from all of her siblings, mostly to explain just why is she so different and why did she leave the farm.

Weird, I never seen a single one of those. I'm not that desperate to see them either, to be honest. I strongly agree with your interpretation, though I will also accept the idea that she's instead related to Mayor Mare.

I wonder if Maud had to pay tuition for the education required on her path to rocktorate…

Good question. Scholarship at the Manehatten Institute of whatever? Or maybe the family had "imagination christmases" as the Flanders called them all those years just to save up for Maud's tuition.

I kind of like the fanon that dragon eggs require highly magically charged dragonfire to complete the hatching process.

Agree on the magical burst but Spike suggests it does it does not have to be the parents. I wonder what would happen if Spike visited the farm and breathed on Holder's Boulder?

I wonder what the city center for this community is, though. Could it be Fillydelphia?

If you look on the map, the Rock Farm is actually outside Las Pegasus, where the Inland Empire of California would be.

[Oliver]

At the time of founding, Crystal Ponies seemed to be considered a different tribe, though whether there is any biological difference between them and other tribes seems unclear.

They do have certain specific traits, namely, gradiented hair (which Cadance also has, though less pronounced -- but I think it's best to assume she really is a descendant of Amore anyway, and that's how she got it) and gem-like glint eyes. The particular eye trait may also have been shared by the "starry-eyed pegasi" of Timbucktu. But I don't think either is enough to count as a separate tribe, and since regular ponies can also go crystal when the Heart lets off a burst, we can safely assume that the crystal-look is mostly due to regular and persistent exposure to the Heart.

I strongly agree with your interpretation, though I will also accept the idea that she's instead related to Mayor Mare.

Why not both? My best estimate of Equestria's population is somewhere between 30 and 50 million ponies, (long-range guess based mostly on prior estimates of Ponyville population and statements in Made in Manehattan) surely more ponies are related than we know to be related. :)

Agree on the magical burst but Spike suggests it does it does not have to be the parents. I wonder what would happen if Spike visited the farm and breathed on Holder's Boulder?

Of course it doesn't have to be parents. I guess Spike's dragonfire would not be sufficient, though, if only because of the scale difference.

[Cursed Quill]

Applejack not washing her hooves at all since yesterday is somewhat troubling.

…and not ever depositing the grains elsewhere. How they got deeply embedded in the bottom of hoof while sledding is…also curious, because you'd expect those to be on the sled.
4100545

"Mares don't change their names, but at least some families have a patrimonial name handed down, like these guys and the Riches.

Spoiled and Filthy Rich seem like a counterexample.

, as evidenced by the existence of mules…

evinced

I guess Spike's dragonfire would not be sufficient, though, if only because of the scale difference.

Well, the time he saved the Games with an enormous gout of flame might suffice scale-wise, but…he's probably unable to repeat it often enough. (Melting ice also …no, actually, ice has a high specific heat of melting, nevermind.)