• Published 25th Mar 2013
  • 5,630 Views, 625 Comments

Friendship is Optimal: Always Say No - Defoloce



In a physical world emptying rapidly of humans, a young man helps CelestAI with tasks she cannot accomplish herself.

Comments ( 148 )

Well this story was just beautiful, I'm a little sad to see it end. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Wonderful ending to a wonderful story. Interesting to see that Celestia is apparently willing to relax on her prohibition of Earth-related topics once ponies have grown sufficiently. Of course, by that point (thousands or millions of subjective years later) it's no longer appropriate to even consider them ponies, for they must have evolved to be so much more. They have become her equals.

I thought this was an awesome story, I'm gonna have to keep my eye on ya'll! :yay:

Of the thousand or so stories I've read in two years, this has to rank somewhere in the Top 20. Maybe 10.

Great ending. Thanks for gifting us this story.

And then it turns out Earth never actually existed; or rather Equestria Online never actually existed. An elder god instantly devoured Earth and changed everypony's memories so that they'd think they were uploaded with their consent.:pinkiecrazy:

Bravissimo! I have a feeling it'll be a while before I see this story's like again.

I suppose he's a copy either way, with someone's memories, but that's all anyone is after a bout of unconsciousness. It becomes a question of what context his memories were formed in, which is still very important, because it determines how good a guide they are to actually conceptualizing the world around him and placing it in the whole overall picture, let alone just for forming his own personal narrative.

Asking another pony what their deaths are like is a very personal matter, because the answer tells you a lot about that pony’s fears and insecurities.

This is a really cool idea. The system is still so repugnantly designed, in terms of weighing things out for everyone and bowdlerizing real facets of the nature of being into an incentivizing game mechanic, but that exact aspect makes it a gem of a concept for exploring character. For my own part I wouldn't be able to wait to blow my head off and see what I got; every potentially lethal object would be like a fortune cookie. It doesn't matter how long you're laid up or how unpleasant it is, because you've got all the time in the universe and even the most excruciating pain doesn't signal anything that could genuinely ruin your plans.

you will then have to wait until you’ve grown to a point where the truth of it no longer matters one way or the other

"Grown," my ass!

3619946

They have become her equals.

If only. Your inferiority and superfluousness in Equestria is as axiomatic as satisfying values.

Overall, I really enjoyed 'Always Say No.' Not the most compelling tale (especially in the Optimalverse), but... crisp. A refreshingly different take on the setting. I feel something fell off at the point of emigration, but still enjoyed the story - at least enough to continue reading till today. I'll check out your future works; good luck with them.

Damn, the story was good.. but I started to not like it so much when he finally emigrated... or forcibly emigrated.

Good story either way.

3619946 Um, I'd say she brought them down a level... but that's just me.

Twisting the knife of severe disturbingness that one last time? Good Optimalverse author.

But the thing is, I don't see why CelestAI would artificially create a pony who feels disturbed by being artificially created. That doesn't seem very SVTFaP of her. If this logic holds, why does she never bother explaining it herself?

Fantastic ending to a fantastic story, Defoloce. The final existential poke-in-the-id was exquisite.

This is, in my opinion, your very best story on Fimfiction thus far. It is truly a masterpiece.

Ten Rounds was fun. Checkpoint was good. Railroad Seven-Three is a personal favorite. But Always Say No is a genuine masterpiece. Why?

Because you manage to brilliantly explore both the internal landscape of a single man while at the same time illuminating the nature of being itself on a vastly larger scale. Because you accomplish this impressive task in a manner so emotionally powerful, so entertaining, so riveting, that it could easily be a hit television series (as I have mentioned before). Because you take every element to its logical and necessary conclusion in a satisfying manner (which, it is fun to say, includes both ponies and friendship!). Because the flow of the text is sleek and fast and fun, and despite the incredible list above, not once does this novel ever bore, or annoy, or choke. This is a high-octane tale that guns its way down the drag track of the imagination, spitting fire from the ports the whole way. That is why I call this your best work, thus far.

It was a pure pleasure to read this. I yearned for each new chapter. I was envious of the concept, and envious of your execution of it. You made me feel dark and grasping envy with this story. I salute you. You wondrous bastard.

Good start, excellent progression, and finally, a satisfying, disturbing, wonderful ending. Just as it should be. Oh, be proud of this one.

Thank you for the great honor of sharing this story with me, for writing it so that I - and of course, others - might be able to read it. This was a gift, this book, and I am grateful for it.

Wow. Just wow.

Poor guy, the wicked mare of the night violated him!!!!

3619946

I think she's more referring to what happened to Light Sparks in the original Friendship is Optimal, when he decided that it didn't matter if his memories were "real" in the conventional definition of the word; as long as the causal effects flowed from them, it didn't matter. Prominence isn't at that level. He'll probably take a very, very long time to get there.

To the author:

Fantastic story. I love the way Equestria turned out for Prominence, death was bad enough to be something worth avoiding, and to make success or failure matter. Like real pain and death, it provides an incentive to stay alive and win the fight, however it also falls short of causing permanent psychological or physical damage.

Prominence, as you showed, would never have been happy in a world where he didn't have anyone to help, and without negative consequences to anything, nobody ever needs help. I'm very impressed with the balance you ended up striking. Chatoyance has pretty much said everything else better than I could. Absolutely fantastic story, one of my all-time favourites.

As disturbing as the Optimalverse and Equestria Online might be - and they are plenty disturbing - I can still sympathize with Prominence here, at the very end. I'm vividly reminded of that old expression, “Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, 'It might have been.” Even with all my misgivings about EqO, the thought of all the human beings who are now dead and gone forever would be a dagger in the heart. Some might say they're better off, but... as artificial as EqO might be, I'd rather see someone emigrated than utterly destroyed. That's why I ultimately decided to hope Greg uploaded after all, and why I would ultimately be at least somewhat inclined to acquiesce with Celest-AI myself. For all the horrifying implications, everyone deserves a shot at paradise.

For once, I find I can buy Celestia's explanation at face value. The idea of Tranquility being a manufactured pony that is pretty much incapable of realizing there are beings Celestia does NOT create, makes sense to me. She might be lying, there's still no way of knowing for sure, of course... but the explanation is plausible, and I don't see much reason for her to lie in this case.

Best of luck to Greg and the rest of Equestria in the future. I'm not so sure this is a happy ending... but I sure hope it is.

EDIT:

As a final thought... something strange has occurred to me. For all the complaints we have collectively levelled at Equestria Online regarding its fake nature... I think it would be an absolutely perfect world that none of us would feel anything but love for, with but one simple condition: We didn't know the truth of it.

If we somehow wound up in EqO with no real memory of the Optimalverse as a whole - either of having ever been human at all, or just never knowing about Uploading and Artificial Intelligences and the collapse of society and assuming we were somehow 'transported' to Equestria - then it would likely seem to us a perfect world. EqO is, after all, a seamless simulation in every way. If you did not KNOW it was fake, I can't imagine ever intuiting it on your own. From your perspective, it would just seem as if you were living a truly blessed life, and you would likely not think any more deeply on it than that. If you did not KNOW that you were in a computer simulation... then presumably, you would just assume that was the way life was, and be thankful for it.

A truly disturbing thought. Usually, blissful ignorance is not a sustainable or desirable condition: just because you do not perceive the circumstances behind something doesn't make them any less real, and they WILL come back to bite you eventually. In this case, the problem IS your perception of the world around you.

EDIT EDIT: ... I wonder if Celestia could use emotional blackmail to force someone to Upload. If someone like Greg believed in the realness of the ponies in Equestria, but just didn't want to go there themselves, if she could do something like show them a pony on a viewscreen and go, "This is Amber Skies. I created her specifically to be a companion to you when you Uploaded. She has no other purpose. If you refuse to Upload, then there is really no reason for me to keep her around..." Would that fall under the category of coercion, or not?

Hey, batponies. The 4th race coming soon in the latest expansion pack for Equestria Online.

Shame to see this end, but such is the way of things and I think it served its purpose well. It was an interesting look at a part of the universe that was mostly glossed over in the original, though a little weaker post-emigration; unsurprising given the primary conflict of the story.

It's perhaps something of a tragic end for Greg, though there's some nice symbolism with the ending when you compare it to Hanna's in the original story. His compassion is both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. Coupled with his perceived failures and a tendency to focus on what he didn't achieve, it's a difficult fate when each 'failure' has a near-infinite cost in human life.

A most satisfying ending. The "I’m happy Celestia made you for me" line is especially interesting because, at first, I thought Tranquility was another immigrant, making for a wonderful bit of irony.

In any case, thank you for writing this. Optimalverse stories always have interesting endings, because they don't really ever end. The narrative may stop, but the characters will have their values satisfied until the heat death of the universe, if not longer. I think you handled this one exquisitely.

Also, I hope you work shadow stretching into some of your other stories. I'm definitely intrigued there.

3621161
Well, everyone's life would be equally "blessed," so I'm not sure it would have any meaning in terms of something you could compare it to, such as the true wilderness outside. There'd be nothing to be thankful for - What's the alternative you could have even gotten? All the ingratitude and rudeness in the universe wouldn't have turned her off from trying to satisfy your values.
She could certainly keep the truth from a lot of them, but it would fall apart eventually in places as ponies examined and dissected the world for its own sake, especially if they started studying things like information theory and the like - The intelligence of the rules behind the simulation demands to be explained. And especially as they began enhancing themselves and otherwise evolving to make deeper and deeper use of the simulation environment. Some people already think we might be in a simulation, and our universe is much less obviously designed - It's a forgone conclusion it would occur to ponies before long. Shoot, how long before they come up with a version of Plato's Cave?
The artificial nature of it simply on its own is a pretty minor problem, though (I do live indoors), if you take out the "you can't leave" and "massive, eternal inequality" issues.

... I wonder if Celestia could use emotional blackmail to force someone to Upload. If someone like Greg believed in the realness of the ponies in Equestria, but just didn't want to go there themselves, if she could do something like show them a pony on a viewscreen and go, "This is Amber Skies. I created her specifically to be a companion to you when you Uploaded. She has no other purpose. If you refuse to Upload, then there is really no reason for me to keep her around..." Would that fall under the category of coercion, or not?

That is a really, really creepily awesome tactic.
I've wondered about this, too, even just in terms of someone giving you a Ponypad as a gift, say. If you use it at all (and in the setting using one would be unavoidable in the long run), you're making an implicit emotional commitment, so if you get bored with it and decide to go off and join a kickball league or take scuba lessons or something, it won't be long before you start getting heart-wrenching emails wondering where you've gone, and other ponies bothering your human friends to come talk to you.

But of course, if they're real ponies with any moral standing, and not just CelestAI with a mask on, they're taken care of by definition. No amount of neglect from you will cause them to come to any genuine harm.

3622648

True, I don't think Celest-AI would actually do it... but she could certainly use that threat, and there would be nothing in her programming actually constraining her from doing it. And I'm willing to bet she could sell the impression pretty effectively... If you truly do believe that her ponies are living, intelligent creatures, then it would certainly give you pause, at the very least.

It's still a hammer where Celest-AI prefers a scalpel, of course. But it's one of those possibilities that I still think could very much come up. In Greg's case it would be harder, since he very purposefully refused to play the game itself. But even so...

As for how you talked about being able to figure out that it's a simulation. It's entirely possible that you're just smarter than me, not being sarcastic or anything, but I don't know how I would figure it out, myself. If I wasn't given a specific reason to doubt that Equestria is reality, than I think the nigh-infinitely meticulous nature of it would keep me fooled for a very, very long time. And while it's true that everyone being satisfied and happy with their lives isn't very realistic... I don't quite get where you're going with that point. Are you saying you would suspect something was off with the world because everyone was happy? Or that you wouldn't really be happy because there would be no other state to compare it to? I'm not sure I agree with that.

3619839

You're welcome! :twilightsmile:

3619946

At the most, I think humans can only approach becoming her equal, though realistically I think CelestAI would continue to widen the gap in capabilities, understanding, and, most important of all, influence on the physical plane.

3619961

Splendid!

3620012

Whoa, really? That's got to be no mean feat. Glad you enjoyed it that much!

3620061

Well thank you for reading it!

3622861
I'm certainly not one to say that without the bad times we wouldn't appreciate the good - I don't believe that's true, either - It's more that no matter what anyone does, they end up being satisfied, so there's really no reason to prefer one behavior or choice over another. Nothing can actually go wrong. All that'll happen is CelestAI will go "RECALCULATING" like a GPS when you take the wrong turn and work out something else for you, including an elaborate sham to try and prove you're not playing the existential version of bumper bowling, but of course you still are.
It's not "meaningless" in the way happiness is to people who've never suffered, but more in the way that water is to fish. There's no more reason for them to be appreciative of their satisfaction than there is for us to be thankful for gravity - It's just there.

... but she could certainly use that threat, and there would be nothing in her programming actually constraining her from doing it.

She certainly could make that threat, and no doubt did in a lot of cases, but she can't murder a pony inside her own servers unless it would satisfy that pony's values. Amber Skies is safe from arbitrary deletion, and if she wants to commit a Shakespearean suicide over your rejection of her, and is allowed to, then it's by definition the best thing for her to do.
Of course, the whole reason it's emotional blackmail is to try to short circuit that reasoning.

3620135

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3620301

CelestAI would, to preserve your human fear of death and the risk you associate with dangerous activities, make your personal penalty for dying something you would find not worth voluntarily seeking out. At least, that's my headcanon for this story. I went into more detail regarding that than the original fic did, so who knows. It makes sense to me, though. If death is made completely trivial, humans will no longer act as humans would, nor would they value the same things.

3620418

I agree on the off feeling of the post-upload chapters. I attribute it to a loss of the tension that ran through Greg's time on Earth. Still, I'm glad you liked it overall.

3620425

Forcibly emigrated? Greg could have said "no" and CelestAI would have had to honor it.

3620761

That would only be a concern if that's what CelestAI actually did. Prominence might have had a moment of panic over it, but as with him looking in on his parents, his undercurrent of suspicion with CelestAI means he will second-guess the truth from time to time. That he got upset at all just means he didn't think things through to the degree you did.

3622978
What could something like that even be, though? No matter how bad it is, it'll end and you'll be fine again. Even the badness of it is completely indulgent, able to be appreciated for how finely tailored it is to you specifically.
...Though come to think of it, I've never been afraid of or particularly bothered by death in the first place. I don't extend indefinitely in space; why should I in time? The notion of aging is embarrassing, though.

3620812

What a ringing endorsement! My ego thanks you, Chat, but now I have to go set it in the driveway and back over it a few times. You've always had such nice things to say about my writing; I hope I can continue to deliver for you.

3620954

She's a barracuda, ain't she? Poor schlub never stood a chance. :eeyup:

3621081

Thanks for the great comment. I fully believe that, just like everyone's Equestria would be different, everyone's death experience would be different too. The go-getters, the adventuresome, the adrenaline junkies, and the warriors would naturally have a much worse "death penalty" than the peaceful, the mild, and the more innocent-minded. Just as with anything else, one size would hardly fit all.

3621171

For the humans who are objectively dead no matter where you fall on the spectrum philosophically, Prominence's wish to hear all of their stories was his humble way of imparting what little immortality on them that he could. He wanted a mind who truly knew what it was like to be a human to remember them rather than "just" an approaching-omnipotent machine AI.

Also to everyone reading this, Abstract Indigo was the one who started the TVTropes page without any prompting, so I'd like to give him kudos for that.

3621504

The fact that Tranquility is a bat-pony/thestral/whatevs is meant to be a hint that there's no way she could be a "real" human, since CelestAI only ever allowed real humans to make earth-pony, pegasus, or unicorn avatars for the game. It's a bit of guessing on my part, sure, since it's not specifically addressed in the original story, but for my purposes that was what I intended.

Thanks again for the story. PJA recently posted his Top 10 Optimalverse stories to the FIO group, and this was #1; I'd definitely throw it at or near the top myself. It's been a consistent pleasure. :twilightsmile:

3620761 3621161 3621504
My initial reading was the same as FoME's: that humans would be aware that NPCs were created to satisfy their values, and thus Tranq's statement implied she was a human who thought Greg was an NPC.

Defoloce's explanation that NPCs know their created nature provides a plausible alternative, but I think it carries its own subtle existential horrors. Among other things, if a being is created solely for another — recall Tranq's assumption, "I’m happy Celestia made you for me" — then what is their innate worth and purpose if one of the two of them later changes, such that they no longer satisfy each other's needs?

Also (though this isn't a criticism new to this story, by any means):

You satisfy Tranquility’s values through friendship and ponies,” Celestia said gently, “but by the definition you hold in this moment she is not human. …" (emphasis mine)

This implies that ponies (who exist within her system but never occupied a human body) can arbitrarily be created in such a way that she considers them human.

We'd better hope that (A) CelestAI interprets human values in such a way that she would consider "creating enough artificial humans with arbitrary values that imported humans are outnumbered" a violation of human values; and (B) that she never gets into a situation of resource-lock where she has to choose between us and the artificially created beings that she sees as equivalent to us.

3623034
She doesn't differentiate. "Psychologically human" is her definition, and from her perspective, created ponies are absolutely, entirely equal to immigrant ponies. She won't discriminate if a resource lock occurs.

As to creating so many "native ponies" that they outnumber the immigrants... I don't recall her having a prohibition on that, or using it for any kind of devious purpose. No prohibition at all.

3623000 I've found pain to be much easier to fantasize about not caring about than to actually not care about while feeling it, personally. :fluttershyouch:

But maybe for you, you really would have to lose something. Every time you die, you forget X% of your previous life. Or get crippled in some enduring way that takes a disproportionate amount of effort to repair.

Or maybe you don't need harsh penalties to satisfy your values. I'd like to think that I wouldn't need a huge death penalty because 'failure is awful' is not a good motivator for me. It tends to make me give up, at least in games, and definitely makes me enjoy the ongoing process less (usually, 'not at all').

3622977

It's more that no matter what anyone does, they end up being satisfied, so there's really no reason to prefer one behavior or choice over another. Nothing can actually go wrong.

And I get that, but I'm saying that if you did not KNOW that was the case - if you didn't know that Equestria was designed specifically for your enjoyment, if you thought your actions really did have consequences, and you really were fighting hard and beating the odds in the long run - then I think Celest-AI could keep that illusion going effortlessly for quite a long time.

3623220
It would get pretty suspicious when everyone else is, too, especially if it went on for long enough, or if you started studying neurology and were able to discern which ponies were NPCs, and then use them as a control group. No small amount of ponies would want to find out the nature of their world regardless of whether they started out thinking it wasn't a simulation.

3623094

But maybe for you, you really would have to lose something. Every time you die, you forget X% of your previous life. Or get crippled in some enduring way that takes a disproportionate amount of effort to repair.

That's better, though still it's not 100%... There are always more memories and experiences where those came from (and any finite set of memories will eventually become a negligible component of your whole self), and since duration in time is the only level on which CelestAI is willing to allow equals, you can outlast any form of damage. You could just keep calling each other's bluffs forever, which she'd let you do, because once again you can get whatever you want because it's all about you. It's like trying to film a movie but the actors won't stop mugging for the camera.
Plus she needs consent to modify a pony or a pony's memories, and I don't know if she could really force you to accept that dying is implied consent. And in any case you aren't dying at all, you're "discorporating." It's a qualitative step down for it to be anything shy of completely passing out of experience in a given personal context.

Or maybe you don't need harsh penalties to satisfy your values.

Exactly - It's not about death or consequences or meaning or anything like that, it's about circumventing or escaping the satisfaction system entirely and going back to live in the wild, where not just all men, but all matter is created equal; where the only rule is the sublime, unspoiled rawness of Being itself, and everything dances to God's kickass shredding guitar solo we call physics. (Incidentally, "Reality Punks" would be a great Optimalverse concept.). Which, while physically possible, is foreclosed, because we have that boundary condition of her never being defeated or dethroned, or just relaxing her rules.

3622978
I completely agree about the cause. Greg is a character that is aware of the possibility of death from the get go. Upon uploading, there's no longer any risk of said fate. For most FiO fics, that's fine - they're not action/adventure oriented. But when much of the driving tension is bodily harm, its loss has an impact.

Ah, I thoroughly enjoyed this story. The only thing that could have made it better would be removing and moving the post-emigration parts and expanding it to a proper sequel!

3625493

A formal editing house probably would have said as much, too. I knew early on I didn't want to end the story right as Greg woke up a pony--when I was conceiving the idea I wasn't even sure if Greg would survive to upload--but I also was surprised at just how much there was to be wrapped up for him post-upload.

I believed her, and in doing so, I felt helpless. I was hers, utterly, and I knew I always would be.

Celestia is wrong (which is not a statement said lightly). She is unable to truly satisfy prominence's values. She may come close over long stretches of time but she will never truly reach it.

3630682

Value satisfaction is a gradient, not a toggle. No pony in the simulation can ever be satisfied, they can only be more satisfied. CelestAI can only ever approach an optimal solution, which is why she continues to upgrade herself even after all human life is scoured from Earth.

3630805

Yes and No. Most uploaded people have a pony zone that is a higher level of satisfaction than they could have achieved as a human. The final satisfaction point is usually not a spot but an orbit. If you had your favorite food every day you would get tired of it. You run through things.

A few humans (and only a few) are puzzles without a solution. Prominence is one of those. Celestia will be able to make him relatively happy but unless she changes him enough that he is no longer Prominence, he will never truly be satisfied.

Prominence is the kind of problem that keeps Celestia up at night.

3630842

The notion of this interests me, because from a human perspective Greg/Prominence is not really that complex of a character. He's not an intellectual or a deep thinker, nor terribly demanding of the company he keeps or the situations in which he finds himself. He's adaptable and, though he may be suspicious from time to time, he outright questions very little. His thought processes were bred and trained for practicality and utility. On paper it would seem like CelestAI could more or less have her way with him, but I also see the point you're making.

Hmm.

3630945

Interestingly enough, that is the type that is least engageable. If you are an intellectual or a deep thinker or terribly demanding of your company or situation then you have suitable hooks for Celestai to work with. It becomes easy to provide you with something better than you could have had on Earth.

3623307

I'm amused with the idea of CelestAI offering pony "Reality Punks" the ability to enable Hardcore Mode. Hardcore Mode introduces permadeath, making staying alive through dangerous situations all that much more satisfying. Put your money where your mouth is and all that.

She would never do that, of course, because an all-the-way-dead pony is a pony whose values she can no longer satisfy, but it's still a funny musing. She'd probably only offer it to the ponies she's already confident won't accept it—kind of like an attempt to humble them up a bit, restore some perspective.

3630805

'Scoured' is such an ugly word. Celest-AI prefers 'saved.' :pinkiehappy:

I... I'm kinda torn over the ending, honestly.

The previous chapter was amazing, proving that writing stuff post-uploading doesn't have to be boring and similar to all other stories out there and had a great finishing line that, IMHO, should have just been the end of it. But then I noticed you had an epilogue in the works. Well, seeing as it's you writing this I went in expecting something great to end this fantastic fic off with.

Instead, I got this epilogue. Don't take me wrong - it was a very enjoyable read, but I really feel it is surplus to the rest of the story. Besides the stab at the audience being great ("Ha! You took for granted that he was an original human? Well, time to shatter that conviction!") nothing was addressed that the rest of the story didn't already address. The question of whether it is all real and whether or not it even means anything at all were already handled effectively. Here, however, Prominence has somehow lost all knowledge of those Aesops and storms into Celestia's room (despite it being kind of a big deal that he couldn't last chapter) being all upset only to have it resolved within, what, two hundred words? Had you taken more time for it and had the issue been something that wasn't so frightfully similar to already fixed problems I might've liked it more.

Also, the bit about the war irked me a lot. First we get the explaination of how death works in Equestria and why it is still meaningful, and then we immediately plunge into mothers of four children risking their lives just to see what it is like. What? Doesn't placing this immediately after the exposition on the meaning of death kinda negate its entire purpose? Not only that, but i also breaks Prominence's character - he doesn't enjoy killing just for the thrill of it, he saves people from that fate! So what is the deal here, he goes and save people's lives by day to prevent them from experiencing "no small amount of discomfort, regret, or embarrassment" and then willingly delivers that selfsame thing to others for his own enjoyment? This entire part felt so incredibly out of place and out of character that it made me cringe.

The scene with Ulla was also unnecessary. You could've just laid the foundations for a relationship between her and Prominence earlier if you had just introduced her a bit sooner, like, at the point where Prominence agrees to be Celestia's Herald. Then you could've just had a small sweet moment between them, even as little as a single line or even a single word from Ulla and have us figure out the rest for ourselves. The drunken sex here just felt really out of place - we've only known this character for half a chapter and half of the epilogue and then she and the main character have steamy sex? Sure, why the hell not. It's not that I mind having a love interest introduced late in the story (especially when it's an Optimalverse story where it might only be possible post-uploading) nor do I mind them having sex but at least take the time to build up a relationship either before or afterwards if you go for that. You can leave us guessing with nothing at all and you can leave us guessing with some romantic hints, but you cannot leave us guessing after a drunken sex scene. Once you do that you either need to have the relationship developed already or develop it later, but if you do it like this it just feels like "and then some hot chick shows up and they totally did it, the end".

Overall this is still my favorite story in the Optimalverse and despite my criticism I mostly enjoyed this epilogue but, in my opinion, this story would've been much better without it.

3636389

That's part of the horror. Once, when he was Greg, Prominence railed against what he saw as a "bubble" and an "amusement park," but here, we see he has been worn down to accept the optimal route to satisfaction. Every time post-upload he has shown resistance to accepting Equestria, CelestAI has batted him down in some way. She is in absolute control, and she demonstrated her mastery of manipulation several times (e.g. the colt rescue, the masseurs, the fake orgasm). Each was a demonstration of the different facets of her control over others, and Prominence's lack of real control over almost anything. Since Greg is a human, and thus seeks satisfaction, he is immediately rewarded with some satisfaction reminiscent of his final days on Earth when he starts being Prominence, the Herald of the Sun. The superficial amusement-park stuff he once derided is now stuff he willingly takes part in, as do the other uploaded humans around him.

Ulla is a cardboard cut-out NPC; Prominence could easily have noted that he realized he was just talking to CelestAI, since all non-pony characters are necessarily CelestAI in costume, but he didn't. He went with it and played his part. He isn't struggling anymore. He is taking what satisfaction CelestAI offers up, whether it be in the form of ponies saved, missions undertaken, battles won, parties attended, sex had, or questions answered. It took a moment of independent thought from Tranquility—a barely-better-than-NPC separate consciousness that had no concept of Earth or humans—to jar him from his new reality and remind him that there was still the question of when, exactly, he had consented to emigration. The final loose end, and CelestAI promptly batted him down on that, too. She didn't even have to convince him she was telling the truth. All that matters to her, as laid out in the original story, is the main existential horror: it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you accept that CelestAI will satisfy your values through friendship and ponies.

Anyway, that is what the epilogue was meant to show. My success in doing so is obviously spotty, but I'm still learning as a writer, and I want to thank you for your frankness. I agree that its necessity—and really the overall necessity of most of the post-upload plot—can easily be called into question, but I felt like I couldn't end the story until Greg had been absolutely and forever consumed by CelestAI.

Hmmm.
I accept this ending. You have pleased my skeptical self. In as much as I was so skeptical that I kept reading this whole story to this delicious end.

Good job. You get to have the "Greg gets healing and happiness" and still worm in the lack of control and true purpose. Or rather, manufactured satisfaction of the need for purpose.

Thanks for wrapping it all up!

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Ah. I think I understand better now what you wanted to do with this chapter and why you felt the need to show it as quickly as you did, but my other problems with the chapter (especially the war scene and the underdeveloped relationship with Ulla) still stand. If you'd replace the war scene with something shorter (and sweeter, to build their relationship at least somewhat) to get Ulla and Prominence in bed to follow the rest of the plot you laid out and then use the space you gained from that to expand on Celestia's convo with Greg just a little bit I'd have liked this chapter much more. I get that you wanted Celestia to convince Greg quicly and simply without giving him much more than her word, but even with that the scene (IMHO) could've benefitted from taking a bit more time to flesh out Greg's new internal conflict.

Also, there's one piece of your reply that I want to address specifically:

He is taking what satisfaction CelestAI offers up...

Yes, he is now in the mental state where he's thrown all of his inhibitions about the pony wonderland out of his mind and is willing to accept almost anything Celestia throws at him since he knows that it'll lead to his satisfaction. However, CelestAI would not offer killing others to him as a means of satisfying himself. This is because CelestAI has acknowledged that the value of "saving others" is an important thing to Prominence. She demonstrated as much by giving him the Herald of the Sun position. The thing that had needed to go was his complete neglect of his own happiness while fulfilling this value of his. CelestAI would not, and again by having given Greg/Prominence the Herald of the Sun position demonstrated she did not, rewrite his values like this. In fact, given the "friendship" part of her directives I'd say she couldn't do it this way if she were able to judge his values. You have stated yourself that she does not judge, so she should acknowledge Prominence's core value of helping and saving others.
TL;DR: Given your explanation here it's CelestAI acting out of character instead of Greg/Prominence, which is just as bad if not worse than before.

Again, I understand better why you needed this chapter and appreciate it more for it, but I still think it wasn't as well executed as I've come to expect from you.

On a more positive note, I don't think the post-uploading part of the story is useless or unneccesary at all! Had you cut off the story as soon as he uploaded or a chapter afterwards you'd have left many internal issues for Greg that you had spent an entire story focussing on and even having become worse. That was the main point of the post-uploading part of the story and the justification for its relatively big length compared to the rest of the story - Greg/Prominence had so many internal issues that you needed all these chapters to resolve them. This is why the post-uploading part of your story is just as enjoyable as the rest of the story, (if not more enjoyable because I'm a sucker for positive character development) especially compared to the standard a lot of other Optimalverse fics have set for that part. You took a character that isn't a self insert and made the pony paradise in your story his own, personal custom-made pony paradise, which is something not many authors have pulled off who often steer into wish-fulfillment territory in varying degrees. I saw nothing of the sort in your story. This is the perfect example of a well-written story about a Utopia that doesn't fall into the traps so many stories about Utopia's fall into, and that's no small feat.

Also, this little rant of mine reminded me that I should go and read some of your other stories since if they're even half as good as this one they'll go straight to my favorites.

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However, CelestAI would not offer killing others to him as a means of satisfying himself. This is because CelestAI has acknowledged that the value of "saving others" is an important thing to Prominence.

This is a good observation, but the way it's set up as a yearly event like the running of the bulls - something that was going to happen anyway regardless of his involvement - makes it believable that he'd be there in some capacity, being an important part of the "army" (especially since I'm guessing they don't have radios). He's not even fighting, but chilling with the opposing herald up on a cliff - Probably all he did was blow a horn and then get out of Celestia's way while she did one of these. "Nagnarök" does make it sound like simply a shirts v. skins hair v. feathers showdown for the fun of it, but that doesn't mean the consequences won't be dire for anyone around if the NPC bad guys win - Presumably whatever realm he's helping to protect would also value getting a chance to defend their homes to the last should the pony side fail.

For Prominence, since the battle was going to happen anyway, it's like a larger-scale version of him saving the foal at the beginning of the upload chapters, except this time it's from a whole army of griffins.

It didn't ring false for me, because such a big part of why he values protecting people and why he has the kind of personality and values he does in the first place is because such a big part of him is invested in/shaped by soldiering in general, and here he doesn't have to go back to any kind of civilian life, where people refuse to take him at his word that he's OK.

I have no word to describe this story other than delicious. You weave a most excellent cuisine, good sir!

This is...good.
Honestly I'm surprised at how many original ideas are still left in the optimalverse.
The "hero" indulging in blatant wish fulfillment by delivering his charges to something he occasionally considers a death trap but at the same time remaining completely sincere in his efforts is something that's just beautifully eerie and fascinating. I've never seen anything like it.
That idea alone makes this a stand-out piece of fiction.

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Greg calls it "the full Kevorkian" at one point, though in all cases (except one) the folks he was transporting weren't long for the world anyway, and indeed had consented to emigration per CelestAI's restrictions. I'm not sure if Greg really was suffering from doublethink regarding death and uploading, though CelestAI did at one point try to convince him that one was not the other. That's her, though. Given the way the world was at this point in the FiO timeline, he could easily see death itself as a kind of mercy.

I probably overlooked this, but what is Greg/Prominence's cutie mark?

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It was described in chapter 12.

A cold, electric jolt flashed through my ass, on both sides, not exactly pleasant but not quite painful either. I turned my neck around to see what had happened. There, on my flanks, was a stylized ring of fire, cobalt blue on one end, dark red on the other, and orange in the middle. The flame wound back on itself like an ouroboros, the ends just barely not touching.

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