Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
-Buddha
Twilight opened her eyes and looked up at the stars for the sixth time that night. For one reason or another, sleep eluded her. She readjusted herself onto her side, careful not to bump into Morenth who rested next to her, and let out a long, quiet sigh. Every time she closed her eyes the faces of her friends waited for her. It made her feel like her chest was caught in a vice, and any attempts to focus on something other than the pain proved fruitless.
Tearing her thoughts away from home, Twilight distracted herself by letting the night fill her mind. Everything was quiet around her. The wagon drivers slept, and no progress was being made that night as the tifflas enjoyed a well earned rest. Their endurance was nothing short of amazing, but weeks of travel took its toll on even their seemingly endless strength.
"Can't sleep?" a voice beside her suddenly asked, startling Twilight from her thoughts.
"Oh by Celestia!" she gasped, looking in the direction the voice had come from. "...Morenth?"
The blankets next to her shifted but it was hard to make out anything by just starlight. "You were expecting someone else, perhaps?" her companion replied wryly.
Twilight shook her head despite the fact that he wouldn't see it. "No, it's just... Why are you still awake? You may've been in a coma for two weeks but you still need your rest."
Morenth's silhouette blended with the darkness of the wagon and was only vaguely outlined by the stars close to the horizon, but she could still see the subtle change in his posture. "My apologies. It wasn't my intention to worry you," he began hesitantly, "But I try not to sleep at night while out in the open if I can help it. It's a habit one develops after years of hunting the undead."
"Are you afraid?" Twilight asked before scolding herself for such a stupid question. From what she'd seen Morenth wasn't afraid of anything. Surely, anyone who would face down a horribly mutated monster three times his size would be immune to fear. Just thinking of the dissolved puddle of human remains left by the guardsmen who'd attempted to aid the paladin was enough to give Twilight nightmares.
"Honestly? ...Yes," Morenth answered in a whisper, his candid tone surprising her, "I'm terrified everytime I go to sleep, be it day or night."
"Really?" she asked, confused by the blatent lack of any indication of the fear he professed to have in his voice, "I've seen you when things are at their worst, Morenth. At most, you're mildly surprised, but never afraid."
The paladin's shoulders drooped. "You're wrong, Twilight. There's a vast difference between feeling fear, and showing it." Morenth's voice became distant, as if Twilight was no longer there. "I've seen things that would drive most men mad; horrible things that will haunt me to the grave. I've seen heroes fall and cities crumble. I've witnessed every end imaginable so I hold no delusions about what fate has in store for me... Every paladin falls in combat. There hasn't been an exception to that since the founding of the order."
Try as she might, Twilight couldn't stop the shiver that traveled down her spine. "So why even become a paladin if you know that all you'll get for it is a gruesome death?" She couldn't get the image of mangled, liquefied limbs reaching up to the sky in pain out of her mind, but she could have sworn Morenth smiled. Curious, Twilight brought out a light spell. The soft pink light from her horn revealed that the smile on Morenth's face was strained.
He didn't look at her, instead gazing intently up into the night sky. "When I was a squire I was apprenticed to a man named Mormond Schwiss. He was a bear of a man and one of the greatest knights I ever knew," Morenth said with a sad chuckle, "After my first battle I was a mess, couldn't even hold onto my sword I was shaking so much. He took me aside and told me something that I've kept close to my heart ever since."
To her surprise, Morenth weakly raised a hand from under his blanket and held it over his heart, showing remarkable progress in his recovery. "He put my hand to my chest like this and said, 'Do you feel that, boy? Eventually, that heart'll stop beating. It's not a matter of if but when. Death ain't a choice we mortals get to make. What we do decide is how we meet that end... Boy, one day you'll have to choose what it is you'll die for, because if you don't choose to die for something, sooner or later you will die for nothing.'" His energy spent, the paladin closed his eyes and let his arm fall back to the wagon bed. "I'll never forget those words... They helped make me into who I am."
The librarian from Ponyville was struck momentarily speechless by her companion's words. They were so morbid, but it only made the resolve he drew from them that much more impressive. They didn't however, mention anything about finding happiness. "What about living?" Twilight asked hesitantly, "He spoke so much about how to die, but what about how to live? Don't you have any other friends besides me?"
Morenth's features became so pained that for a moment Twilight thought his wounds were bothering him. Her guess was reinforced when he took a labored breath and shifted himself to face her, but the look in his eyes made Twilight believe the pain ran deeper than his poisoned body. It vanished as quickly as it came, hidden behind a well guarded frown. "As heartfelt as this talk is going, I don't think it's going to help you get any sleep," he said dismissively, "If we must talk, then let it be about something of little consequence." Twilight matched his frown with her own and prepared to continue until she got some answers when he added, "Please, my past isn't something I normally talk about... to anyone."
Swallowing her words, the lavender unicorn relented her inquiries. For now. "Fine," she said after a long pause, "I know I shouldn't pry but sometimes my curiosity gets the better of me."
"Then let us sate your curiosity on something other than my personal life," he said without infliction, gesturing to his pack resting near her hooves, "Look in the side pocket for a scroll. Also, if you come across any vials full of colorful liquid, please don't drop them." Twilight's breath caught as she remembered the alchemic explosive he had her pull from his pack in Hollodrum and abruptly stopped her rummaging. A second passed before she heard a soft choking sound coming from Morenth. Looking at him questioningly, she found him holding back a weak laugh as he struggled to keep himself upright. When he noticed her attention he seemed to become aware of himself and coughed in a useless attempt to cover it up. "Ahem, well yes... I uh, wasn't being serious," he managed, catching Twilight's deadpan expression before hastily moving on, "It's near the top. you can't miss it."
Giving Morenth one last glare, Twilight continued searching his pack until her magic removed a weathered scroll with aged oak handles. Carefully, she opened it, revealing an artfully drawn map. The area it depicted however, was unsurprisingly alien to the lavender mare. She floated it between herself and Morenth, expecting an explanation. "This is Soulis I take it?"
"It is," Morenth replied, making an effort to lift his arm again. He pointed to an area of the map colored in silver leaflet. The drawn peaks of mountains surrounded the north, running the length of the silver field until it reached the ocean. A red inked forest also dominated its eastern border. "This is where we are now," he said, trailing his finger over the parchment heading west until he stopped over a spire drawn on the coast, "And this is Kaldoon, our destination."
Twilight excitedly took in everything she could. The geography was so varied it boggled her mind. Then her eyes found something off about the map. inland, far beyond the Bloodwood or even the plains and mountains beyond that, a long, jagged crevice was inked almost violently into the paper, dominating the area around it. It must have spanned hundreds of miles by the look of it. "What's the name of this place?" she asked, raising her hoof to gesture at the anomaly, "I don't see anything else like it."
Morenth's expression darkened slightly as he looked at the foreboding ink scratches. " A stretch of forsaken land known today as The Fallen Throne. It used to be the seat of civilization; a beacon of progress and majesty." His fingers ran over the black fissure thoughtfully. "It was there that Yuelith walked the lands of the First Men and taught us how to truly live. She taught us how to cultivate the soil for crops and how to build structures out of stone. She even gave us the knowledge of magic and how to use it. From the fertile soil of the heartland the first kingdom of man rose, its splendor unmatched even today." The paladin sighed and lowered his hand. Twilight took this as a sign that he was finished, but Morenth merely readjusted himself and continued. "It was a long time ago however, and the few surviving documents are spotty at best, but what we are certain of is that a Sundering took place there."
Twilight gulped, feeling the weight of Morenth's words. "And just what is a 'Sundering'?"
"It's what brought ruin to the First Men and cut an everlasting wound into the very heart of Soulis," he replied gravely, "It was a battlefield. One upon which the gods themselves fought..."
"...And that's how Equestria was made!" Pinkie Pie declared dramatically, causing many of her friends to roll their eyes.
"Pinkie dear," Rarity began, looking at the pink mare critically, "The princess hasn't even begun yet, and it is incredibly rude to interrupt so please keep the outbursts to a minimum."
Unaffected by the disapproval in her friend's voice, Pinkie nodded happily. "Okie dokie lokie!"
Celestia merely smiled at the display and nervously noted how close Pinkie had come to what she intended to discuss in that outburst. Despite her misgivings about having to disclose a secret she'd kept for thousands of years, she couldn't think of any group of ponies she would rather share it with. "To begin, I'd like to first ask you all how Equestria came to be as you understand it."
Applejack spoke up first. "Well, every foal knows how Equestria was founded. It's told every year durin' Hearthswarming Eve," she declared with confidence, "Chancellor Puddinghead, Commander Hurricane and Princess Platinum settled down in the valley of Equestria's heartland in order to escape the famine brought about by an everlastin' winter. When they realized the value of workin' together the windigos didn't have no more hate to feed on and died out, leavin' the ponies of Equestria to thrive for thousands of years."
Amused, the princess tittered, remembering her sister's contributions to the popular fable. "Indeed, now let me ask you all something not covered in the story. How did Luna and myself come to rule over Equestria?"
"That's one's easy!" Rainbow Dash proclaimed, performing aerial maneuvers and a little shadow boxing to add to her telling, "You and Luna swooped in and used the Elements of Harmony to whoop Discord's butt and save Equestria from his evil reign!"
The avatar of chaos rolled his eyes at the display. "Oh please, play a few harmless pranks and suddenly you're the most infamous villain in written history," he said with his signature sarcasm, whisking Fluttershy into a hug and declaring dramatically, "Oh sweet Celestia, it's the devilishly handsome monster, Discord! Run for your little pony lives!" He ended his drama with puppy dog eyes and a pout, which quickly became a knowing smirk. "At least I wasn't trying to live up to somepony else's shadow, unlike a certain princess I know."
Celestia cleared her throat with a hint of annoyance at Discord's infliction. It was already hard enough to discuss without him making it more difficult for her. "That's enough Discord. I'm more than capable of telling them myself without your biased opinions." She turned to face the gathered elements once again and felt an uncharacteristic pang of uncertainty. Forcing it down, she continued. "Yes, that is indeed what was written, and while certain elements are correct, there are many aspects of written history that are... insufficient for good reason."
Her words drew many confused frowns, but it was Rarity that spoke first. "Your majesty, are you saying the stories we were all foaled on, the stories even scholars generally accept as the truth, are purposely vague to mislead us?" There wasn't a tone of accusation in her question, but the trepidation was easy to hear.
"No, not all of it," Celestia admitted, once again daunted by the challenge explaining away several millennia worth of lies, "But as I said, there were many events that were never recorded." It was time. After thousands of years she was going to break the promise of secrecy she made to her teacher in order to save her student. The irony was not lost on her. "There were also key figures that were never mentioned in the annuls. The most prominent being mine and my sister's predecessor, the goddess Epona."
The ponies gathered around her didn't gasp in surprise or even question her. They were too busy absorbing her words. Discord however, laughed and floated over to her in serpentine fashion, placing his arm over her shoulders in mock companionship. "Oho yes, Epona! Now there was a mare that knew how to enjoy a little chaos." He chortled, making the princess twitch with agitation. "She never saw the need to imprison me in a pigeon rest stop, unlike little Tia and Lu-lu. Also, I find it ironic, and more than a little tasteless, that you used her Mantles to do the dirty deed. You know, since it was Epona who decided I was too fun not to have around."
Celestia sighed and gave the spirit of chaos a scathing look. "Yes, and while she was around you were manageable, but the moment she... she was gone you went out of control."
The spirit of chaos smiled as he no doubt prepared a witty replay, but Applejack cut him off by stepping in front of him. "Now, Ah don't mean to interrupt, but who the hay is Epona, and why ain't we never heard of her?"
"Yeah," Rainbow Dash chimed in, "And what does Discord mean by using her Mantles to beat 'em? I thought you used the Elements of Harmony."
"Oh Miss Dash, you are so adorably thick," Discord said as if speaking to a foal, "The Elements of Harmony and Epona's Mantles are one in the same, and they are just as they sound; mantles of power to be assumed by those with the proper... qualifications." Rainbow Dash growled at the insult, but the avatar of chaos continued as if nothing was amiss. "Epona was a goddess of many talents, so to speak, and a god's power is reflected by the ideas their mantles represent. I myself hold the mantle of chaos and disorder." The avatar of chaos paused and glanced questioningly at Celestia, looking for what appeared to be permission to continue. Taken aback by the surprising display of respect, or at least civility, the princess simply nodded wordlessly. "Ahem, Epona herself became the holder of four separate mantles. How she did so is irrelevant to our little missing pony conundrum, but I'm sure you know of the four mantles I'm talking about."
Rarity rubbed her chin for a moment in thought. "Well, there are six Elements so that doesn't quite match," she said, more to herself than anypony gathered, "Maybe combined, as it represents one central idea?"
Her eyes suddenly widened in realization. Discord, taking this as his cue, clapped his paw and claw together in applause. "Indeed you are correct, Madame! The Elements all reflect harmony as a whole, and with that there are three more Mantles within Equestria. Those which are already possessed by three uptight princesses; the sun, the moon, and love. With harmony, they are the Mantles of Epona and the glue that holds this charming little world of sunshine and rainbows together. Without them, the world collapses."
"Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up," Rainbow Dash said, her wings twitching nervously, "If that's true, what happens if one of the Elements isn't in Equestria anymore? Are we talking 'end of the world' stuff?"
"No," Celestia began before Discord sowed panic among the remaining Elements, "At least, not yet. Luna, Cadence, and myself still hold three of the Mantles, and even with one missing it would take centuries for the realm to become weakened enough to cease."
Discord rolled his eyes. "Oh, Tia... Why all the games? Just tell them. Equestria's collapse isn't what you're really worried about."
The princess shot him a glare hot enough to melt steel, but with his usual theatrics, he pulled a lawn chair and a bottle of sunblock out of nowhere and laid down to relax while he worked up a tan in seconds.
"You're right," she conceded grudgingly, making a concerted effort to regain control of herself, "Right now, Twilight's safety is of paramount importance. We'll be forming a rescue party to bring her back to Equestria with all possible haste." This got several determined nods from the gathered mares, but Discord scoffed in annoyance at her deflection. "I have gathered you all here for that purpose."
"Awwww Yeah! Time to save the day again!" Rainbow Dash whooped, performing various loops and other aerial maneuvers to add to her enthusiasm before screeching to a sudden halt, "Uh, where are we going exactly?"
Celestia drew a deep breath and let the truth out with frightening ease. "You will be traveling to the land of our ancestors, to our home before Equestria came to be. A world that is now corrupted by darkness."
Ah yeah! Ponies in Soulis, this gonna be good! Hmmm, I wonder what all Gods fought in the 'Heartland of Men'? And love the Zelda reference, it's nice to see an epic steed getting a cameo.
Not faulting the story, it's certainly captivating at least.... but why does everyone feel the desperate need to completely rewrite the canon about Equestrian history? There seems to be this atavistic need among fanfic writers for Celestia and Luna to be goddesses, or the descendants of goddesses, all canonical evidence to the contrary.
2661074 To put it frankly, they are comparatively useless if they aren't goddesses/deities. There's a lot more you can do with their characters if they are goddesses/deities.
Let's fire up the Star Gate! Yoiks and away to adventure!
2661288
Probably not...
2661074>>2661111
It's not that I try to subscribe to fanon, but in my mind, If you are an immortal ruler and the apex of your kind with the power to move celestial bodies, then you, my friend, are at least a demi-god. The closest I can get to Celestia not being a goddess in my head is to liken alicorns to the pony version of elves with ridiculous magical reserves, but since their are only three (now four) in existence (or at least mentioned) and have to be ascended to the state, I must concede that it is either an unnatural state of being brought about by magical tampering; therefore magic mutant, or a natural state in which one takes an aspect of the world to embody; therefore godhood.
I hope you enjoyed this traipse through the mind of fanon, in which all things are overthought and the coffee is free.
2661425
Really? Any particular reason as to why? (For curiosities' sake of course)
2661074>>2661111>>2661375 The fundamental problem is that if the bit about moving the sun and moon is accurate (as shown by Nightmare Moon's eternal night) then it is implausible for them to be anything other than goddesses, however all evidence in the show (and especially Celestia's showdown with Chrysalis) seems to indicate that they could not possibly have that kind of power. This leaves a major contradiction which can only be resolved by writing off some of the evidence in one way or another (or ignoring it altogether). This leaves two fundamental camps within the fandom, and for whatever reason the goddess camp seems to be larger and more vocal.
I personally think that they cannot be goddesses and that Nightmare Moon used some other means to create the illusion of eternal night (we have seen magic manipulate light in illusions, Trixie was particularly fond of these in her first appearance) and that the whole sun and moon thing is a lie. Ro kas had a good description of this in ASMD, chapter two, just search for “You do, princess,” to jump to the explanation.
2662937
Your bar for being declared a deity is frighteningly low.
1) Immortal. So? There are species of jellyfish IRL that are immortal. Extreme longevity and being difficult to kill are incredibly low bars indeed.
2) They move the sun and moon. In Equestria. First, evidence is that Equestria is geocentric, with a relatively small sun and moon. Second, mortal unicorns once moved the sun and moon about. Pushing about two miniature planetoids on their own is impressive-- which is why they got the job as rulers of Equestria, obviously-- but god-tier? Not even.
3) Power. Celestia and Luna are WAY down on the list of powerful entities in Equestria. They've been defeated by Discord, by Chrysalis, and by six magical rocks wielded by teenage mares. (and no fair using fanon to proclaim the rocks embodiments of the powers of a god.) And as the show goes on, other Sealed Evils in a Can are going to appear that will, of necessity, be more powerful than them.
4) Attributes. Celestia has to communicate over long distances by dragon-belched scrolls. She and Luna are frequently ignorant of goings-on in their own kingdom and even of commonly known facts (parasprites, Nightmare Night traditions). And they both make pretty colossal blunders (Nightmare Night, not trusting Twilight's suspicions about Cadence.) Celestia and Luna wouldn't even cut the mustard as a lesser greek or roman deity, and they certainly do not have the omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence requisite of a true God.
They are not gods, and certainly demonstrate enough common sense that they would be horrified at the notion of being worshipped as such by their subjects. (It doesn't take divine wisdom to see that mortals worshipping your less-than-divinely-perfect self is a recipe for catastrophe.)
2663518 Um, I'm really not sure what you are trying to say here. 1, 3, and 4 are all basically what I was talking about in evidence that they could not be gods which is the position I hold. I just did not feel like writing it out because a comprehensive list would basically amount to a summary of everything Celestia has done and every crisis she has failed to resolve (Luna gets at least a partial pass due to her having to catch up on 1000 years of history).
The only point that could be argued for them being gods is the sun/moon thing (2) which we only know of through secondary sources (in-universe books and plays) which could easily be fabrications, especially when you consider the fact that the stories in those predate Discord's first reign which presumably did a number on written records given the chaos he caused when he came back. In fact, there is no good evidence to indicate they actually do anything beyond act out a part as described in the story section I linked to in my last post, and it might even be a ceremonial thing that no one really believes in (sort of like Santa or the Easter Bunny).
Your attempt at rationalizing this with small bodies makes even less sense when you consider the necessary astrophysics and thermodynamics which mandate that the star be enormous in order to undergo and sustain fusion and that the planet must be small in order to avoid becoming a second star. The closest you could come without completely throwing out any sense of reality and consistency is to have the planet tidally locked to the star with two moons orbiting it which reflect different amounts of light onto the world below and are in the same orbit but spaced 180 degrees apart so only one is in the sky at a time, but even this does not need any help because the moons will keep orbiting just fine on their own.
Really the most logical explanation for this is that it is an in-universe lie (weather the ponies know this or not is irrelevant) because that allows everything to fit together in a neat and logical manner with no need for bizarre and convoluted assumptions.
hmm, and the plot thickens.
2662937>>2663518>>2663649
Okay, first off, WOW... I was not expecting a drawn out argument on this subject. I think both of you are setting your bar a little high in the godhood department; like Christian God high. I'm looking at this from more of a DnD prospective, wherein gods that take physical form are limited in power and vulnerable to death. Lots of high level quests in RPG style fantasy have characters taking on deities. And besides, Greek gods are a perfect example of the style of gods I'm trying to depict them as, being both vulnerable to death and capable of hubris. Also, about exploiting fanon with the Elements.....*Runs away like a bitch*, You'll never take me alive!!!!
2664790 Honestly, Celestia does not even rate that high (I was specifically thinking of the various pagan gods because they match the rolls of the princesses better than the Jewish god). If you discount the sun/moon thing as a total lie on the basis of logic (Occam's razor makes a very strong case here), the only remotely divine feature she has seems to be not dying of old age. She seems to be absolutely useless in every crisis (except the changeling invasion, she managed to make that worse), cannot perform simple logic, and seems to have failed to gain any actual wisdom in her thousand+ year life. Luna is hard to pin down because she gets so little screen time and we know Celestia is keeping her out of the action, but I think it is fair to assume that she is roughly on par with Celestia in terms of divinity.
The Elements on the other hand are impossible to pin down, but given what they have been seen to do I think they more or less qualify as Star Trek technology (in case you were not aware, the writers for Star Trek just write "tech" in the script when they want to move the plot ahead so consistency is sacrificed for the sake of the story).
P.S. In case you couldn't figure it out, I'm an engineer. I like logic and physics.
2665044
As I understand your 'glass is twice as tall as it needs to be' logic you must remember this is a fic based in a world with necromancers, the undead, magic, mythical creatures, and divine knights, which is based originally on a cartoon about magical ponies with more magic, plot centric abilities (one-offs), hammer space, objective physics, and Pinkie Pie. Attempting to apply logic to it will give just give me a head-ache so I went with imagination and whimsy to fill the gaps. I try to keep the fantasy as grounded in realism (as far as realism can go when you have magic) as I can. Overall setting is supposed to be realistic characters and situations (again, as realistic as ancient wars, undead apocalypses, and epic adventures can get) surrounded by an extraordinary setting (which is the winning formula that gave us MLP). Besides, gods make everything more epic. That and Chuck Norris, but I can't add him to the story so I settled for gods and goddesses.
Also, I like to point out that despite Celestia's seeming uselessness, all the villians have been beaten by either the Elements of Harmony or other alicorn.
God, this rant makes me sound like an ass.... I still love and appreciate you all for reading my dribble, and I would like to let you know that this debate is purely for fun and don't want you to think we're having some pointless internet argument. I both value and consider your input but politely disagree.
2665205 I am with you on the first part because you are doing a good job to keep logic working with the undead hordes (unlike most zombie apocalypse stories which have the undead win for no apparent reason) and all the other aspects of your universe. What we have seen of magic through Twilight also makes sense within the context of the show, although there has not been much of that besides the jump yet.
Where I disagree is Celestia because as RealityCheck pointed out in item 4, she is staggeringly incompetent for something that is supposed to be a deity, and even manages to look like an idiot if we assume she is just as human (or pony as the case may be) as the rest of the cast aside from her long life.
Yes, Soulis was shrouded in darkness ever since the Doom came...
Somehow, I seem to be getting A Song of Ice and Fire vibes from the whole 'our race's homeland' and such.
3546420
An omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being could never be overcome. However most gods found in mythology are not all of the above. At best they hold one or two of those traits. Most mythological gods hold sway over a very specific thing Poseidon for example having sway over the ocean. He is just immortal not omni anything. As such I would argue that were we to examine Celestia, Luna, Cadence, and Discord we would find that they could be gods in the sense of most mythological gods. Discord reminds me of Loki, Luna Selene, Celestia Helios. (I know I just mixed and matched mythology there) The point is that Luna, Celestia, and Discord all have just as much claim to godship as the other deities mentioned.
In my head cannon I do not personally ascribe and dietyship to any of them. I see them more as immortal sorcerers, should they die (in battle) then the laws of the universe would find a replacement vessel to fill the role. In other words they are more akin to forces of nature than gods. But there is no reason that you could not ascribe them dietyship, it fits with most mythology. If on the other hand you actually worship them and think of them as gods I have some serious concern for your sanity. (that last bit there is addressed to no one in particular)
3826318
Most gods of mythology are none of the above.
...
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So Link is a god?