23 - Baptism of Fire
Days of Wasp and Spider
by Luna-tic Scientist
=== Chapter 23v15: Baptism of Fire ===
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As of the 16th June 2013, this chapter has been merged into chapter 22 (and lost about 2.5K words in the process). Both chapters have seen some edits; if you want to see the originals-as-posted, follow the GDOCs link: Original CH22-23.
There are a couple of hundred 'new' words in the 'new' chapter 22 (it alters Gunnulf's characterisation a little, but that's about it), if you've already got this far.
I've deleted the text, but the actual chapter will stay up to preserve the comments (those who do not learn from history, etc.).
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The next chapter is probably the one you are waiting for...
Aaaaaugh! The suspense! It's killing me!
curse you cliffhangers!!
anyways great chapter!
RELEASE THE SUN!!
You are the MASTER!
All bow down to the Master!!!
Oh you! Next chapter then, next chapter
My first reaction was literally:
OH COME THE FUCK ON!
My second reaction, after the shot of nervousness from seeing this story update, the anxiety while reading of expecting at any moment to find graphic descriptions of Celestia being vivisected, and the shakes-inducing impotent fear of just having survived a stressful situation, was:
This isn't fun.
I've had the same kind of reaction from high-stakes one-on-one tournament games, introducing myself to an attractive girl who I don't yet know, and having someone ram my stopped car from behind doing 45 miles per hour. I very much prefer casual multiplayer games where it's not all on me to succeed or fail, I'm extremely standoffish to attractive girls as a protective mechanism, and I drive defensively like a fucking champ.
It also bothers me immensely that I react this way; like I should be stronger than this... and like I don't want to bother anyone with it.
I am just a single reader.
I'm just not having fun any more.
And yet, even for all this, I can still see the plot details you are setting up - Gunnulf is bad, but he still has his limits.
I'm going to have to agree with the "this isn't fun anymore" statement.
Stop with the goddamn cliffhangers at this point. Either post something that's not got one, or don't post at all till you've reached a point without one. Having them consistently slapped onto the end of each chapter has gotten well beyond the point of tiresome. :|
....
*@#&@#% &*@^@$ @#%@# !
5000 words for basically nothing to happen!
... sliding instead along his left shoulder... - instead sliding along his left shoulder? sliding along his left shoulder instead?
Aaand another very short chapter that manages to clarify or answer absolutely nothing, ending in 23rd cliffhanger in this story. What's not to like?
This is like one of two fics out of everything I'm following that is even updating lately and it's one of my favorites. I can't take the suspense!
denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw8357-mlp_cliffhanger.jpg
All these perspective-shifting retreads are getting tiresome. It's nice to see multiple characters' perspectives on an event, but there are ways to do this without watching the same scene 5 times from different camera angles. For example, you could swap viewpoints while keeping in the same timeflow (4 lines, no waiting), swapping more rapidly whenever it's about to climax. Some of my favorite things do that, like David Brin's uplift series or the (in)famous webcomic Homestuck. Also, putting a cliffhanger every chapter is getting annoying too. It's not going to keep me from reading my favorite consistently updating hard sci-fi pony fic, but please cut that out already.
Argh! I really freakin' hope that the next chapter comes sooner rather than later. Good Chapter.
The perspective switch was way too much of a hassle this time around. I got the idea the first time, seeing the same fight four times was just annoying. Still wonderfully written, but compared to the previous chapters this one was almost utterly devoid of content. Not to mention the brain-scraping cliffhangers at the end of EVERY CHAPTER. This is still bar none my favorite active fanfic, but it's getting tedious.
But at least we get to see these asshole mongrels finally start to get wiped back to the stone age.
2655451 without clicking the YT link, I assume that is the rather impressive "granular jamming robotic manipulator video"... hope I guessed correctly...
I really like that idea for the ponies "action hoof grip" (tm) myself. My idea pertains to anatomical charachteristics of the frog as it already exists. The frog of a horse's hoof is used as a sort of pump. Because horses are so massive, it can be difficult for blood to counter gravity. With these "little" ponies being so much smaller, this problem is minimized, and allows the frog to shift in ecolutionary (or engineered purpose). The surface becomes highly pliable. Granular cartilege tissue will fill the sub surface and it would be possible that a fluid filled sack developed over her speeh. A mere single muscle could grasp and release the internal structure of the sac.
It's an idea though.
2664314 2664089
Glad I'm not the only one who thought this. Nothing wrong with perspective shifts, but it's overkill to keep telling the same scene in detail over and over again. Especially since the characters presented are pretty established.
For example, Gravity's perspective is important. She's come to an epiphany that is going to change her goals and outlook. Gunnulf's perspective is not. The character's motivation and traits aren't going through any kind of upheaval. There's no reason to retell multiple scenes from his point of view because no new info is being given to us and it all comes off as filler.
The same fight twice inside the same chapter is a bit redundant.
2663396
Actually for something very little to happen in a span of time.
2664089 2664314 2664633
I agree with you guys about the perspective switch between the fighters only serve to describe how one fights and how much their opponent surprised them when things don't go the way they expected. Gravity's clarity when irrefutable proof that the Master have every intention of killing them (Which throws out my idea that she becomes Nightmare Moon to work for them. Glad to know that it really was an unknown force that made her act that way) is more important that Gunnulf's personal anger towards ponies and how different griffons are born and treated when compared to ponies. The only kind of person who will enjoy this bit are the ones that like world building a little too much. Korn's perspective in the end is the only one that appears to be important due to the fact that it actually progressed a bit.
2663260>>2663396>>2663434>>2664314>>2664633>>2664646>>2664837
All feedback noted; thank you for your honesty. I'll try an rein in my desire to tell all the stories in mind numbing detail. I'm also aware that the reading experience of you folks is different from the hypothetical new reader from two months in the future (who gets to see it in context), so it will be interesting to see how that pans out.
Cliffhangers: I need to decouple 'I don't like cliffhangers' from 'I don't like how you've dragged this cliffhanger out'. If it's the second one then that's easy; if it's the first then it comes down to a question of chapter length and posting frequency. That is an inverse relationship, so if you want longer chapters (and thus a lower proportion of cliffhangers), the price will be longer gaps between each post.
I made the decision to have a schedule, 4-8K twice a month, so you know you can expect something every two weeks or so. For me, the real horror is not knowing when (or if) I'm getting my next fix; if you folks have more of an issue with the way things are split up, then I can post larger chapters less often (which, in many ways, would be less work). See also the comment at the end of the first paragraph.
So the glorious comeuppance is to be delayed another few weeks. While not ideal, I can live with it.
It was good to see Luna make the breakthrough she needed, and I'm amused to see that we have Gunnulf to thank for his significant contributions.
I was surprised to see Luna go from 'I totally know how to take this Gryphon down' to just ignoring him when things actually start happening (thus giving him the opportunity cause problems). Granted, she's new to fighting, but attention to detail, Luna - I am dissapoint!
The viewpoint discussion has been adequately covered, so I won't dwell on it. I suppose it will be interesting to look back on this to see if the various facets presented do combine to give us critical info.
I will say you did a good job characterizing Gunnulf, managing to make him slightly more relatable, while still amply demonstrating his flaws.
2664999
You tease!
Regarding cliffhangers, I think it's more the second one in this case as this particular cliffhanger has dragged out for three chapters over the course of a month.
I think it might have worked better if you had ended chapter 21 as Luna left, then switched to Luna's perspective from this chapter for chapter 22, and finally used Celestia's and Korn's perspective for chapter 23. This flow would leave chapter 21 as suspenseful but only chapter 22 and 23 as the cliffhangers. If you wanted to be clever you could even omit exactly what Luna had seen and only show her reaction so that we only know about Celestia's situation in chapter 23 and thus there are still cliffhangers but they're all different ones so it doesn't seem quite as drawn out. Just my 2 cents.
For me, the problem is not the cliffhangers themselves, and not even having several updates in a row to end with cliffhangers (though even this can easily become tiresome), but having several updates in a row to end with what feels as the same cliffhanger. The story advances too little between the updates for my taste. If the price of having more story development per update is less often updates, I'm OK with that.
2665640
This is a good way to put it. The last three chapters have all ended in 'Oh hey, Celestia is about to die, how much damage does she take before Luna saves her?'
The dual-perspective fight would have worked much better if it had simply been synchronous, swapping viewpoints. Rewinding it led to me just going 'Okay, know what happens, only relevant bits here are what he is thinking' and skipping a bunch of it because I already knew it all.
The big issue simply has been the Act 2 of this mini-arc is going on too long, and Act 3 should have come a bit sooner.
That said, trying to end chapters in places other than 'Oh hey, new possibly mortal peril' would be something to strive for. Cliffhangers on occasion are fun, cliffhangers repeatedly (Even if the nature changes) start to wear down the audience's interest - this was one of the (Admittedly many) flaws that plagued Heroes after Season 1
2664999
I honestly didn't mind this chapter. Not much may have happened, but what did was fairly momentous: Gravity has recognized ponies' disposable nature. Now she's doing something about it. The fight scene from both perspectives was a bit gratuitous, but this was still an enjoyable installment.
Y'know, if i had any one comment i feel
badhorrible about posting, it would be this one. I absolutely ADORE this story. I can't wait to read it when it updates. I don't read dark stories all that often, but this one drew me in like a moth to flame. I completely understand if you delete this comment, but i do at least want confirmation you read it. Even if you disregard everything about it.Also, know that i could've been snarky as hell with this, but i chose to refrain from it as best i can. Rambling does happen though, and i apologize.
2662860
I reached the end of the chapter, with my heart racing, and your first thought was mine. Nearly nothing, other than Gravity going slightly insane (again) happened. Then, the next scene was told three times, from differing viewpoints.
2663260
I hate to sound like 'that guy' here, but this. Right here. I can understand the want to use cliffhangers, but this is just ridiculous. Basically, the cliffhanger from last chapter stands, THROUGH this one! Then you add ANOTHER one on top of it.
It's like with Loyal2-1's writing. He uses dark/depressing endings (and occasionally cliffhangers, or both!) for his chapters, and when i read his stuff, i come to expect it. When it ends in 'sunshine, rainbows and sparkles' as he calls it, it's a welcome change of pace! Something depressing isn't immediately happening next chapter! Even though it will anyways, just because of who he is, it doesn't change the fact that a different chapter ending is nice.
I'm not ragging on Loyal here, either. He's a great writer, but he falls victim to using the same ending types over and over again. Hell, if i wrote, i probably would too.
Also, though this is the first update i've read since finding the story and reading it completely, i could tell each and every cliffhanger as it was produced.
No offense to you, Luna-tic Scientist, but this reads as if it was a filler chapter. Very little was accomplished plot-wise, and... no, that's really it. I don't mind filler chapters, just not in the middle of the action like this. God, i hated Bleach so much for that when i was watching it back in the day.
Even after twenty minutes of composing this comment several times, my heartrate is still elevated, because there's been no closure. Other than the cliffhanger's vagueness, there's not really been much that's happened.
I really, really don't want to be that guy, but i don't see much choice here. You're a great writer, Luna-tic... it's just this chapter seem so... sub-par compared to the rest of the story...
Here's a synopsis of what i read during this chapter, Luna-tic. Lemme know if i got it right, thirty minutes after reading, with no rereads:
Gunnulf POV: Standoff from previous chapter replayed, from Gunnulf's POV this time. A little backstory for why Gunnulf is there is provided beforehand. Gunnulf then goes further and teases Gravity by telling her she's next, after Fusion has been
dissectedvivisected.Gravity POV: Slight mindbreak, and probably a bit more insanity for Gravity. Gravity tries to leave the area to save her sister, after realizing Gunnulf's probably right. Supposedly, her blessing is removed, again, if the 'breaking' is any indication. Fights Gunnulf to escape, after nearly spearing him not once, but twice with her horn, Lilac intervenes.
Gunnulf POV: Same scene as before, from Gunnulf's POV. Extends the scene a bit, with Gunnulf receiving further injury, and more sci-fi explanation of their weapon systems and Griffon upbringing, until Korn POV change.
Korn POV: Korn checks camera again. Sees Gravity head off-screen, presumably to get away from the images he's showing her. Gunnulf/Gravity fight scene sort-of mysteriously happens off camera, with Gunnulf down. Lilac grabs Gravity with his TK when she's on camera. Gravity overpowers Lilac and searches for something with her magic sight. Finds what she's looking for and (my guess is she) teleports using her new connection with Luna and the stars. Korn notices Gravity's mane and tail flowing in an invisible wind slightly, or thinks he does. Scene ends here with the sheer power of Gravity's teleport causing a shockwave through the complex; Korn feels it slightly through his feet. *Chapter end.*
Now, i won't be un-faving or anything of the like. We all have our bum days. I can completely understand that. While i didn't mind reading the chapter itself, it's the repetition during it that threw me off. As a suggestion... instead of focusing on one character during those kind of scenes, (the ones where you want both/more parties' POV to be a part of the scene) try going for a generic POV over all of it, so you can talk about the gun, Griffon history, and Gravity's mind break all in one fight scene, instead of repeating it three times. I feel that i read the same 1700 word chapter nearly three times, and the chapter was edited slightly between readings, to change the chapter's POV.
2662860 you would hate (love) Murky Number Seven or Project Horizons.
Great chapter Lunatic! Thanks for having the altering as well as this AU continuation of the plot, I enjoy both emensly!
The three simultaneous points of view were rather interesting for this chapter, even though they only concerned a scene clocking in at under a minute. That aside, serious story boner-- this makes a much better place to end a chapter than the previous one.
I find myself wishing less harm on Gunnulf than I did previously.
2664837
That's the thing though, I'm a complete whore for worldbuilding. I just felt like this chapter didn't really go anywhere.
2666203
It's not that I'm terribly squeemish or upset by violence. I enjoyed Project Horizons, though I haven't read the other story. It's more that Celestia is my favorite character by a wide margin, and its upsetting to see her tortured like this. I was never this sympathetic to any character from PH. Add to this that every other fic that builds up the way Wasp and Spider has eventually killed/maimed Celestia, so while I'm on edge just from what Celestia has gone through so far, it's even more nervewracking to keep expecting a detailed description of her vivisection - because that's just what these kinds of fics tend to like to do - and being helpless to stop it.
2665565>>2665640>>2665810 and probably a few others I've missed.
Other cliffhanger/repetition comments noted, thank you for taking the time to feed back (not joking, it's all useful). The extra info from the different POVs was intended to give some insight into the characters; especially Gravity's change of mind, and to highlight that Gunnulf is a little more complex than a mindless thug. Obviously that didn't work!
2663260>>2662860
Last time for this particular scene, promise. No cliffhanger on the next chapter.
2666020
You've got it about right, except it's only one stab, and Grav's Blessing was removed the day before; what you're seeing is her changing her mind (the Blessing is a conditioning process, a bit like training a dog with an electric collar -- take the collar off and the training remains until something significant happens). No comments on your speculation as to the final scene. Also, why would I delete your comment? You're just expressing a (constructive) criticism, nothing wrong with that.
...also I've Done The Research (TM). The 'every chapter a cliffhanger' hypothesis is not supported by the data.
'Mortal Peril' cliffhangers: 10, 11, 15, 18, 21, 22
'Maybe': 3, 23 (marginal, since you must have some idea of what's coming)
'Normal': 1, 2, 4-9, 12-14, 16, 17, 20
...so I'm guessing it's really just this miniarc that's the problem, which is fair enough.
Update!!!!!
Sampling Process: Universe Loader ----
#Discord is a byprocess of the Chaos Entity
#Pony in a particle accelerator
#Power-sisters GO!
#Gryphons. Jets. Foals.
...
#Pony blows up particle accelerator.
#The Mob hire the foal-smasher. To play spy.
...
#A joke. I'm sure there was a joke somewhere. It had something worst than a nuclear winter in it.
#"Take the blue pill, sister. It shall bring great confusion. And won't be very effective. And there will have to be a science-damaged foal to convince you. And a live demonstration of the Masters' evil-ness."
...
#Eviscerator 3000 is turned against thug by daydreaming assistant to cold-hearted scientist. Daydream ends.
#Bigbrother is watching you! And relaying your sister dissecation in real-time too! Wacha you gonna do now, huh?
---Starting reading in CurrentTime+(time to bed)
2667003
Incidentally, don't get me wrong here. I have adored a good portion of your work, I truly have. You're a wonderful writer, and this is a really neat, compelling take on the prehistory of Equestria. I've just found the way that this particular nasty spot of brutality has been drawn out across several chapters to go from a bit bothersome to downright grating, and thank you for considering that.
I'll look forward to seeing what happens next.
2667003
And as for why i said something about deleting the comment: I've had comments deleted for worse reasons. (Or none at all, actually)
Close enough then.
I have a special hatred for stories that leave back to back cliffhangers without any resolution. You already had good build before, and now it's watered down. It feels like half of this chapter occured already last chapter. At this point, I don't feel suspense or anxiety over the scenario. I feel frustration over this massive wall of text in the way of resolution.
The power scaling felt pretty off too. I assumed Gravity was only slightly weaker than Fusion, and Fusion can shred the walls of a concrete bunker for fun. Then suddenly a Gryphon grapples Gravity like it's nothing, and suddenly an equally powerful pony is there too. It just feels improbable.
Everything was written pretty well, and I'm probably just impatient. You've delivered so far. I guess I'll simply trust that you know what your doing.
2668001 As far a powerscaling goes, I read that the Gryphon had anti-magic armour, Lillac was an unstable experiment made to burn fast but very brightly, and Gravity wasn't really using Luna until the end. Still, I can agree with your qualms about splitting the storytelling- unless Gunnulf's going to be terribly important, I don't understand the need to give him an entire half chapter of POV for Gravity's actions.
2664999 If you're dead set on telling both sides of the fight (or some similar scene/dialogue/situation) in future, maybe alternate storytellers between paragraphs (or wham lines)? This way you could give flavours of reactions and reasoning for both sides, while still maintaining a semblance of chronological progression.
Eagerly awaiting the next one.
2667079
Three in a row? Ok... I'll wait to see what happens. Fine. You have me by the balls because I have emotionally invested into the story, so do what you wish. (I may be slightly irked, if that's not apparent.)
Loved the changing viewpoints, although I'm not sure how I feel about the fight being re-hashed through two different viewpoints. While it does give the benefit of both showing and telling of how deep that statement from Gunnulf cut, I'm not entirely sure that it's necessary. (Though I will say that it heightens the tensions in the room by allowing Gunnulf to be presumed a threat still, while not giving large amounts of detailing to the fight occurring between Lilac and Gravity. That is one benefit.)
I was assuming that Gravity would quickly neutralize / eliminate Lilac once he posed a problem, but he is far too powerful given that he is incredibly young, and Gravity had enough power to (literally) blow Fusion away after being de-blessed. Seeing as Fusion busts bunkers for fun, this seems inconsistent, or that Lilac's power level is over 9k. (Either that or he's Starswirl the Bearded... hmm?)
Ground rumbling is interesting, but doesn't mean much yet. Better hurry up Grav, the Clock. Is. Ticking!
Fun read, still unsure about how you wrote the fight from two angles. Decent chapter, and I look forward to seeing the next one.
Everyone else had long worded opinions on this chapter. I just think it should be called "Even the Floor gets a Point of View."
Seriously like 4 points of view in this chapter.
2668618
2666020
Disregard my suggestions when you have people like this commenting on your works. We really do love this story, and want it to be the best it can be.
2668001>>2668763>>2668763
Power scaling:
Fusion gets blown away by Grav because she's not ready (or expecting) such a strong reaction. Any pony could have done that.
In this chapter (all bar the last scene), Grav is in 'stealth mode', not connected to the moons and thus pretty much a normal pony. She's also panicking, which is never good for concentration (thus Gunnulf's early success). Lilac has been in the lab most of his life, doing nothing but magical tests against machines, he's got a good set of 'magical muscles', but without the real world practical experience.
Alternate POVs:
I'm writing limited 3rd person, and didn't want to shift internal POV too frequently (hence the rehash) because it might seem too confusing. Having said that, every thing would be split by markers, so it might work. I'll think about it -- although I'm more driven to continue, rather than rewrite, at this point.
2669038 Alright, good enough for me. Grav was panicked and hadn't ever considered combat essentially, so that does make sense. I guess I read that throwing scene wrong. I thought Fusion was being used as a foil to show Grav's strength, not simply a transition. Wasn't Grav suppose to be next in line for Fusion's experiments, because she was the second strongest? That's why I thought it was improbable.
Ok, now I've had 2 people say Lilac was some sort of super experiment. I thought from last chapters description he was mamed by the experiments or something. I can definitely see I was wrong though. I was all like "Why is the cripple manhandling Grav!?!? The heck is this!" I have been known to misinterpret fine detail before.
(Seriously though, I appreciate the response. I really appreciate you taking your time to give as much feedback to us as you do. It's bound to take some serious time and patience to answer a lot of the same question repeatedly. The fact that it took me 22 chapters to complain about something is sincerely impressive to me. Great job on the story. PLEASE don't bother rewriting it. My biggest complaint is that I hate cliffhangers because I'm impacient. Unless of course, you just want to spite me.)
Cliffhangers in principle are fine, but this chapter almost felt like you're teasing us.
Still, Gravity is coming, and every non-pony in the room with Fusion probably has its remaining lifespan measured in seconds rather than minutes. Even poor Korn!
2669038
That's always a plus.
Continuing instead of rewriting is perfectly fine in my book. This chapter probably didn't deserve half the thrashing i gave it in my comment, but i wanted to get my point across. I'm also glad to know that someone can tell criticism apart from just straight bashing.
2666203
Yeah, i read Project Horizons, and can agree here. I love to hate it for it's cliffhangers. But at least those chapters are like 20+k words each. On humongous chapters like those, i can completely understand a cliffhanger every other chapter. 2k word chapters don't need them nearly as often.
2667079
Pretty much. If you look at it it's kind of a '4 of the last 5' scenario, and that is likely why!
Cliffhangers are okay if they are spread out, and of late they've been too dense
So much hate for good writing. It's no wonder no one reads the classics anymore.
I thought the last two chapters were perfect. I am assuming you're building to the climax of this particular story (arc?) and thus the extreme building of the tension. Anyone who is upset with that obviously has no patience. Like a fine wine, a story must mature properly to really be enjoyed. Too many people on the internet get their wine from cardboard boxes these days it seems.
Looking forward to more.
2671712
Touché, stranger.
2665829 This about sums up my feelings on this chapter
hi hi
I really shouldn't look at other people's comments before I write my own. I thought this chapter was great, and I didn't even see the ending as a cliffhanger. Yes, bad stuff may happen to any pony, including Fusion Pulse, but bad stuff has been happening to them since chapter 1. All this time, all of Fusion Pulse's options have been either bad or worse, and she's been a knife's edge away from death over and over again, but thats not the point. In this world, ponies are slaves. They work until they are useless to the masters and then they die. In that sense, her peril is no different now than it was when she started.
But when it comes to the mind, this is such a pivotal moment in the story. The fact that it is Gravity Resonance who is the first to openly defy the masters is, in my opinion, fully deserving of its own chapter. This is the moment that ponies start making their own decisions.
This was the chapter I was waiting for.
Ugh.... I hate it when the chapter of a good story gets wasted on multiple perspective recaps.
Most of the content could have been spliced together (be it in this chapter, or the previous), allowing for more story. On top of shortchanging the story on progression, it also lacked any sort of new material. I'd say a solid 60% of this chapter could be replaced with new events. The thought process leading me to this conclusion is that because in the previous chapter you have a build up to MC being about to be terminated, and cliff hanging the reader with a sense that the next chapter will show a resolution, be it she gets torn to bits, or she is rescued (most probably by Gravity). What you gave in this chapter was a lot of small, interesting things (such as all of the interesting stuff on Gunnulf's weapon), that should have been held off for another time, or (in the cases of the view swapping) integrated in either previous chapters or sections of itself.
Additionally, a good fifth of this chapter was recap from the previous chapter by a different view. Instead of having Gravity's and Gunnulf's sections separate, it would have made for a more smooth read with them taking the same space, and then flipping to Korn's view, as he is in a completely different area. This would have allowed for more (once again) story progression.
So... as you can no doubt tell, this chapter is, by far, the most disappointing to me. That doesn't mean it was bad (because it wasn't), it just left a bad aftertaste after finishing it. Kind of a 'that was it?' feeling once I was done. Because nothing really happened.
Anyways... I'll just wait for the next chapter.
2671712
I suspect that, when the next chapter does come out, this won't be an issue for new readers. It might just change from cliffhanger to page turner. Such is the inherent peril of reading things as they are still in progress I guess.