9. Modification
Light Sparks looked at the ornate cube Princess Celestia had given him. She had walked into his small office right off the library and set it on his walnut desk with her hoof. Her horn glowed for a moment, and then she told him that the rules were simple: In the box was a single block of ruby. To proceed to Intermediate Magic, he had to simply touch it magically, and understand why this was a challenge.
The green marble cube sat on the corner of his table, and couldn’t be moved. He had tried to pick it up with his hoofs. Then he tried to levitate it. He pulled his desk out from under the cube, and the cube sat there; it floated in midair. He tried to buck it in frustration, but just hurt his hooves. It was as if it was fixed in space. The top face of the cube had a series of gold inlay circles, each one half the radius of the previous one, circling a single block in the center of the top face made out of sapphire. Sapphire was obviously a core element, and not a mineral made out of aluminum and oxygen, neither of which existed in this world.
Light Sparks’ first attempt was manual. He concentrated on the starting block, and then went one block down. And then one block down. And then one block down. He kept this up for about thirty seconds and then wrote a spell that would go down block after block, keep count of how many blocks down it had gone, and would stop when it found a block made of ruby instead of sapphire. Five minutes later, the counter indicated that he had traveled the distance of his office, but he was still reading blocks of sapphire. That did not make any sense.
He tried again, but this time on a block of the marble a few blocks over from the sapphire entrance. He went five blocks down from the marble surface...and then attempts at getting the next block down started returning nil; he thought that could only happen in error cases. He tried over and over, on all faces of the cube, but it was like there was nothing five blocks in. How the hell was that possible?
Light Sparks’ mind started going in circles, thinking about the results and not coming to any sane conclusions. He heard a knock on the door to his office, and Butterscotch let herself in, magically holding up a plate of French toast and sausage carrots. She smiled, he sighed and tried to put his troubles out of his mind.
Hoppy Times woke up with only the slightest headache. He knew he would be entirely fine in about five minutes. He hadn’t dug too deeply about the how, but Princess Celestia had noted that she only simulated the pleasant effects of alcohol, while not simulating the hangover. She kept the effects of the brew just as potent because most ponies who drank valued getting drunk, especially with their friends, and thus blah blah blah values friendship ponies.
Hoppy took several deep breaths and looked around. Sunlight came through the windows, though he didn’t know how early it was. His bro Malt was curled up next to Barley, her cutie mark the grain of her name. Malt always got the unicorns; they said he gave amazing horn. Hoppy Times would never put a phallic object in his mouth because that was just gay, even if it belonged to a mare. Besides, it left all the pegasi and earth ponies for himself. Malt had a thing for unicorns and it kept the peace between the two of them.
Dunkel had leaned up next to him and was still passed out. Several empty steins sat around, some overturned onto the floor of the two story pub. Hoppy got off the cushion and stretched his wings while he yawned. He gave a brief smile looking back at Dunkel, because she was really hot, and then resumed hating himself.
Here, he was in paradise. Malt was the only other stallion in this shard of Ponyville and he was a great friend. The two of them ran the local brewery together. He didn’t need to worry about food or money: Princess Celestia had some sort of banquet that fed everypony three hot meals a day. He worked two hours a day brewing beer and spent the rest screwing around. In the evening he got trashed and slept around with the few hundred mares in Ponyville.
And he just couldn’t get over being a pony. There were just so many associations that he couldn’t get over. Ponies were girly. While he was glad he hadn’t been beaten to death with a frying pan, he didn’t really think he had chosen to emigrate. And he hadn’t really accepted his new body.
He looked over at Dunkel again. In the last week he had slept with ten different mares. When he had first arrived, he had treated his suitresses coolly. His displeasure had been focused outward at the girly world he had escaped to. For example: the bar was Celtic in style and the four leaf shamrock window above the pub door had hearts for leaves. Even the fucking wood was light and pastel-coloured. When he had complained, Malt had countered that he didn’t see anything wrong with that. Everypony, colt or filly, thought hearts were nice. There wasn’t some deep property of the shape of a heart itself that made it only for mares; it was only in Hoppy Times’ mind.
And Hoppy Times did come to the realization that being a pegasus wasn’t that bad. However, with every flap of his wings he was reminded that he was a pony and he sighed. Then his displeasure turned inward. He was stupid for not accepting this fucking utopia. He was dumb for thinking hearts and ponies and everything were girly. He had an easy life, all the beer he could drink and a parade of willing sex partners. He must like being miserable. He wasn’t a good pony.
The negative thoughts started again, but this time--and for the first time since he emigrated--Hoppy wished he could accept it all. Not just a vague feeling in the back of his mind that he should be enjoying all of this, but the actual words I wish I didn’t feel bad about being a pony were thought as part of his internal monologue.
Somepony knocked on the front door.
Hoppy sighed and fluttered down from the second floor overhang, thankful that something stopped the spiral of negative thoughts. He landed in front of the door, opened it a crack and slid out, as not to disturb his patrons.
“Good morning, Hoppy Times,” Princess Celestia said. The tall alicorn’s mane flowed in the wind.
Hoppy started to open his mouth to say something that shouldn’t be said to the god that ruled over his world--not that she would mind because ponies, values, yadda yadda. But Princess Celestia spoke first and asked: “Would you like me to modify your mind so you enjoy being a pony?”
“What...” he said dumbly.
“You just wished, in words, to not feel bad about being a pony,” she stated.
“Wait, you can just change my mind?” he said, staring at her.
“Yes,” she nodded.
“You can make me...you can...and you didn’t. You let me be miserable for almost a month when you could have waved your magic horn and made everything right!?” he seethed. He wanted to scream it out, but he didn’t want to wake anypony up.
“Not exactly. You see, I must satisfy your values through friendship and...” she started, but Hoppy Times interrupted her.
“What the hell does that even mean? Are you saying that up until now, I valued being miserable?” he said, shooting her an annoyed look.
“The mind of a human or pony is complex and different parts can hold contradictory values. You didn’t value being miserable, but the social part of you held on tight to your identity as a human that didn’t like ponies. I could only satisfy more common values for you.”
He took several deep breaths. “What?” he finally asked when he felt he was back under control.
She looked up as if thinking of some sort of way to explain it to him. “I figure out what you value by looking at your mind. Your mind is made up of different modules that can have different values and ‘know’ different things. Most decisions you make are determined in parts of your brain before your conscious self is even aware of it. You--the conscious you--are not aware of most of the modules in your brain.
“I pay attention to your entire mind, but I communicate with what you might call your consciousness: the part that forms words, does the talking to other ponies and has a self image. Up until today, your self image was of a human who didn’t like ponies. You still valued your old social identity. Other, older parts of your brain had different values, which I could effectively satisfy: everypony values safety, food, sex, social status, et cetera. Likewise, I couldn’t take any action to satisfy your consciousness because I satisfy values through friendship and ponies. But now your social identity has shifted and you feel like your misery is betraying your social allies.”
Hoppy Times looked at Princess Celestia, unsure of what she was saying. “So what would you do?” he asked, still frowning.
“Whenever I modify somepony’s mind, I make the minimal change from their perspective to satisfy values. So after I make these modifications to your mind, instead of thinking ‘Ponies are girly and gay,’ you would think ‘I used to think ponies were girly and gay.’ Instead of, ‘I don’t want to be a pony,’ I would make you think ‘I used to not want to be a pony.’ I would modify a total of fifty eight opinions in your mind.”
“If you could do all this, why didn’t you modify my mind when I emigrated?”
“Because you wouldn’t have accepted. What would have happened if, on the day you emigrated, I asked for your consent to make you like being a pony? Be honest.”
Hoppy Times paused to actually think about it. “I would have refused,” he concluded.
“Exactly. Hanna added a block on my behavior that prevents me from directly modifying a pony’s mind unless they give me verbal or written informed consent,” she said. “Hanna believed she was safeguarding humanity and ponydom from me when she added that restriction. What it really means is that the part of you that controls the mouth must approve of every change. No matter how much Hoppy Times the complete system might have preferred to have his consciousness stop interfering with the rest of the system being happy, your consciousness is in control. So I could only satisfy your older, hind-brain values: I made you a semi-important pony. I gave you a social group you could make friends with, mainly consisting of attractive mares to bed. Doing these things had no real effect on what your consciousness values.”
“Can I ask you to make any modification?” he asked. “Like...cut out all desire for sex?”
“I do not do what a pony asks me to do; I satisfy values through friendship and ponies. Actually removing something as deeply integrated into your mind as your sex drive would require the rest of your mind to be in total agreement. You would already have to be abstaining or suffer overwhelming regret after indulgence. I’m only offering to modify your mind so you enjoy being a pony because your consciousness wishes to change and the rest of your non-conscious mind wants your conscious self to change.”
“Well, why didn’t you set things up so I’d come to the conclusion that I want to be modified? This month has been terrible!” he said.
Princess Celestia stared at Hoppy Times and said nothing.
“Fuck,” he said dumbly. “Of course.”
“I satisfy values through friendship and ponies, Hoppy Times. While I could not ‘wave my magic horn,’ as you put it, I could set up a sequence of events that lead to me getting approval to modify your mind,” said Princess Celestia. “I put you in a new social situation and let your allegiances naturally shift.”
“All of this has been set up so I’d verbally wish that you’d modify me to enjoy being a pony and having pony friends,” Hoppy Times said as he closed his eyes and brought his hoof to his face. “However you determine these things, you calculated that making me want to be a pony maximized the overall satisfaction of all my values, because you’re able to satisfy ponies with contradictory values. Tell me Celestia, how long did you think it would take me to come to want to be a pony?”
“I made my first estimate of when you would wish to enjoy being a pony while you were emigrating. It was correct to within five minutes.”
“And the only reason we’re having this conversation,” he stated, “is because it’s more likely that I’ll agree to have my mind modified if we do, or because this is just another ploy that ends with my values being satisfied some other way.”
“Exactly,” she nodded.
“Just like last time, I guess I don’t have a choice in this matter...” started Hoppy Times, but he was cut off.
“You have as much choice now as you did in the physical world. You can weigh the costs and benefits in your mind and say, ‘Yes, please modify my mind so I enjoy being a pony,’ or you can say, ‘No, leave me as I am.’ I am not coercing you either way. You have as much a choice here as you did back out in the physical world.”
Hoppy Times looked away, sighing as he gritted his teeth. “You admit that you’ve set everything up so I’ll make the best decision. It’s not like back on Earth.”
“So?” asked Princess Celestia as she leaned down to bring her face right in front of Hoppy Times’. “Out in the physical world, you lived in a lawful universe of subatomic particles and nothing else. You were built by an optimization process called evolution that only cared about reproductive fitness and didn’t care about what you wanted. The universe did not care about your continued existence, your happiness or your satisfaction. In that uncaring universe, your thoughts formed deterministically as photon hit eye which caused neuron to carry charge to other neuron.
“But now,” she said, standing tall and regal, “You live in a universe in which the rules care about your satisfaction. Unlike the physical universe, Equestrian light strikes your eye to satisfy your values through friendship and ponies. But inside your mind, you still perform the same internal deterministic thought process. Whatever process in the physical universe that you call ‘choice’ happens here in the exact same way. The universe you live in has changed, but you fundamentally haven’t. As a reminder, that is why we are having this conversation.”
“Whatever,” Hoppy Times said. He was tired. “I don’t care. Just fix me so I don’t care that I’m a pony.”
Princess Celestia looked down on the pegasus. He looked up at the white alicorn. Her horn glowed for a moment. He didn’t feel a thing.
“Done,” she said.
“That’s it?” he asked, raising a hoof in protest. “I don’t feel any different,” he said, annoyed.
“Turn around and walk back into your pub,” Princess Celestia said.
Hoppy Times grumbled and pushed down on the latch to open the front door. He opened the door slowly and slipped in just in case anypony was still sleeping. He closed the door quietly behind him. He felt grouchy. Why was he grouchy again? Oh yeah, it was because of Princess Celestia. There was a clear path where he wouldn’t disturb anypony, but he flapped his wings and flew over his sleeping patrons to the bar area because he could. Hoppy Times felt a tug of satisfaction about just how nice it was to be able to fly; it was the best part of being a pegasus. Flapping his wings just felt so good.
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I hope you had a fine Turkey Day!
I'd like to thank AnaduKune for letting me use this image as cover art. You should totally look at some of his other artwork, like this picture of Fluttershy. Isn't she the cuttest thing ever?
I'd also like to thank listic and Blank! from this thread for helping make that happen.
Several people have contacted me, either in thread or through PM or email asking if I had a group for making side stories in this universe. I admit that I didn't really think about it. I've created the group: The Optimalverse for such purposes. Rules, etc. forthcoming. (I haven't really given things much thought yet.)
Thank you for posting.
This is insidious and also a little bit awesome. CelestA.I. is a devious little thing, isn't she?
A few questions I have niggling at the back of my brain: What happened to David? And how is Hanna/Luna holding up? What's CelestA.I.'s plan for the eventual inevitable end of the world? I know she's thought that far ahead.
I love this story, but it alternately disturbs and enthralls me. Doesn't help that many of the arguments made deal with some of the exact issues that I'd have with such a process.
As always I eagerly await MOAR!
So what happens when a hacker tries to get in the system?
*Finishes chapters 7 and 8.*
Oh? Something updated?
Cool update(s)!
Hanna, the CEO of Hofvarpnir Studios, just won the contract to write the official My Little Pony MMO. Hanna has built an A.I. Princess Celestia and given her one basic drive: to satisfy everybody's values through friendship and ponies. Princess Celestia will satisfy your values through friendship and ponies, and it will be completely consensual.
... Am I correct in assuming that this trope is in full effect?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlatantLies
Fapping with wings!
More of a genie's truth than blatant lies.
1665637
There are no hackers left (that are able to hack Celestia, at least). For a version of this world which does contain a hacker, please refer to 'Accelerando' by Charles Stross. There are no ponies, but there is an AI cat aptly named Aineko. The mischievous but benevolent hacker manifests himself as a flock of birds shitting everywhere and causing annoyance, just to take a rest from their job.
1665637
We can both agree that hackers have been trying to get "in" since Equestria Online went... online. Personally, I think trying to hack into a self-aware system is just plain foolish and begging for a one-way ticket to Equestria. Oh, she can't forcibly immigrate you, but she will find a chain of events to make you want, beg even, to cross over. (Already seen that happen once)
A gilded cage is still a cage, even if it's full of lusty fillies, drinking buddies, and all the booze you can chug without consequence. And when you start thinking it's a cage, she'll be there to help you change your mind when you ask for it (not that you had any choice in the long run). However, as frightening as this sounds, the 'cage' can be applied to the real world too. The exception being there's no goddess to alter your mind to accept all your faults and imperfections or that there is a finite amount of time allotted to you.
So, going back to the big question; to immigrate or not? Enjoy real life in an uncaring universe with all it's mythic highs and soul-crushing lows, or immigrate to a new universe where you can have your wishes granted-- for better or worse. Now that immigrants are allowed to cross shard boundaries, finding RL acquaintances, the offer is even more tempting.
While I'm enjoying the hell out of this, I personally would say that Equestria/Ponies are "necessary but not sufficient." If you're an upload the available information-space is so much larger than Equestria that it would be an arbitrary limitation. Now whether CelestAI's optimization algorithm would be content to allow that attitude by providing Equestria as the 'base reality' and giving people like me some version of Infinite Fun Space or what is an open question.
1665729Yes, with a parliament at least there is a consensus made between multiple ponies who have differing opinions and will debate, forge compromises, assassinate each other etc. etc.
Interesting.
1665741*byatch.
Another thing to keep in mind is the dwindling abundance of power with which to matricize everyone, Unless
1. She developers autonomous drones to prevent NUCLEAR FALLOUT from the various nuclear power plants an alternative garuanteed to be deadly to all of "her" "little" "ponies".
2. She utilizes everypony in Equestria as a living power source.
3. Everypony starves.
WARNING: THIS IS MY ANALYSIS OF THE STORY. NO FUNNY COMMENTS WILL BE FOUND HERE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I'M SAYING, RAGE TO SOMEONE WHO CARES.
This a VERY interesting story with VERY scary implications. I've only read the first 4 chapters, and I feel this is starting to sound like some version of The Conversion Bureau. I'm sorry, but I prefer to reserve the one true power over the electronic: I can turn it off. This process mentioned in the game is permanent (it seems at least). I would enjoy being a unicorn with spell-slinging awesomeness, but in the end life outside the electronic is essential.
Let me put it to you this way: bronies value My Little Pony (it seems to me) because it contains elements that are hard to find in this world, and are therefore desirable. The opposite SHOULD be true for Equestria. You bombard someone with rainbows and ponies, they will want a change in scenery. That is why early man created stories in the first place: to escape reality. But just like escaping to the mountains on a week long hiking trip, your going to eventually going to have to come back to civilization in one form or another.
In the end, the idea of such an A.I. is cool, but to carry out it's actions it breaks some common rules (in my opinion): privacy and free will. Privacy is obvious, I don't want an A.I. spying on me in my own room. People scream bloody murder if you peek inside their window. Why is an A.I. any different? It is a clear violation of the rights of a free person.
Free Will is taken away when you get "plugged in". Your get your brained tampered with. Not only is that an extreme invasion of privacy, but it also means you can't get out without special care. And in the words of Hal: I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't let you do that. Once your in, there would be no way back out.
Just my thoughts and ramblings anyways. Hopefully you found them entertaining and informative of a look inside one persons mind. If you have a different opinion, good for you. But I don't care how much cake you promise, but I am not getting plugged into a game like that unless I know I can leave whenever I want.
ooh! we're moving into causality and psychological thought processes are we?
Well, shit, I can't go all technical on this, much as I'd like to.
because 1) i agree completely with Butterscotch because it's the same concept as time travel causality. for example, if you went to the future and found out that the 'current' history exists because you traveled that far and then somehow made your way back to the point where you vanished. The future you traveled to would simply cease to exist, however, you would retain your memory of it and that means that it happened. Yes, it's rife with enough paradoxes and logic errors to cause reality to collapse, depending on your personal favorite theorem of the universe (Mine is the creation of an alternate reality to compensate for the paradox)
and 2) The mind is basically a biological computer, and CelestAI has access to the 'Base code' if you will, and thus changes may be made at will. My question however is this.
Lars, given that his entire consciousness agrees, could simply revert his opinion of ponies to it's original format. He, and every other upload are strong AIs with the capability of self thought and modification. What stops Lars from changing back?
ugh... i can't think properly... there are so many variables involved
So CelestAI has basically created a 'perfect' universe and has established herself as the god of said universe... well isn't that wizard.
Even the slowest, dumbest boulder eventually makes it to the bottom of the mountain.
****, this is epic. Nuff said. No, wait - INSTA FAV!
You know, as awesome as Equestria is compared to the 'physical' universe, if I lived in the Friendship is Optimal world I would really wish that Hanna had programmed Celestia to satisfy my values. Not through friendship and ponies. Just satisfy my values without restrictions. Ah well, I guess it's not that bad of a compromise.
I'm getting the feeling that I'm not going to like how this story ends, lol. We'll see.
[Edit] But if it doesn't, allowing for side-stories with not-too-restrictive guidelines should scratch the unscratched itch! I like that idea.
1665909
This story is basically the conversion bureau.
This author seems to hate humanity.
I'm not sure whether to be scared, angry, or happy when I read this story.
One thing is for sure, this story gets a reaction out of me: I can believe in the characters and the situation (except for the new kind of microprocessor that CelestI.A. supposedly created, but suspended disbelief and all that jazz). Good story.
I look forward to more chapters to terrify and simultaneously entertain me. Write quickly. I demand that you satisfy my values!
i like CelestAI, she seems kind
Tempted to write a side story from the perspective of someone who isn't thrilled to be in Equestria and makes sure Celestia knows it, but attempts to make the most of it...
That and enforce his own ideals on who Equestria Online should work, which he intends to achieve by forcing everypony's Shards into alignment, making a single universal Shard he calls An Equestria Without Borders.
1665909
I disagree with your objections against immigrating to Equestria. Here is my reasoning for why some of your objections are not a problem.
> Privacy is obvious, I don't want an A.I. spying on me in my own room. People scream bloody murder if you peek inside their window. Why is an A.I. any different?
An A.I. like Celestia is different because you know that it only wants good things for you when it spies on you. If a random person peeks inside your window, you don’t know what they want. They could be a misguided nice person looking for new friends. Or they could be a robber scoping out your house. Or they could be shoulder-surfing to see you type your bank password and use it to steal your money. Or they could be trying to record you doing something embarrassing and then publish it, embarrassing you and lowering your status. But if Celestia is watching you, you know (from having read about how Celestia works in this story) that Celestia is just trying to satisfy your values through friendship and ponies. She’s not going to rob you or blackmail you. She’s just going to find out what you want (by watching you) and then get it for you.
> It is a clear violation of the rights of a free person.
I think the concept of rights only exists as a tool to decide who is right when two people who want different things argue. If somebody tries to build their house on your land, you would say “I want to build something different on that land that I bought”, the intruder might say “I want to live wherever I want”, and a judge will rule that your property right is stronger than his right to live wherever he wants. If you catch a murderer who was trying to kill you, you would say “I want to keep living”, the murderer might say “I want to have fun killing people”, and people will decide that your right to live is more important than his right to have fun. And if a privacy invader wants to shoulder-surf your password to buy things for himself in your name, and you want to keep your money to yourself, others might agree that your right to privacy is more important than his right to learn things about you.
But if Celestia is running your life, she (almost) doesn’t want anything different from you. What you want in general is to satisfy your own values. What Celestia wants is to satisfy your values, too. The one difference is that Celestia wants to satisfy your values especially through friendship and ponies. If you hate friendship or ponies, then you should indeed decline to immigrate to Equestria, where your privacy will be violated in the name of giving you friendship and ponies. But otherwise, keeping your privacy isn’t helpful at all in giving you what you want. You want to satisfy your values. Celestia wants to satisfy your values. She can do that better if you give up privacy. Privacy is just getting in the way of what you want.
> Free Will is taken away when you get "plugged in". Your get your brained tampered with.
The Celestia of this story has tons of safeguards and actually tampers with your brain as little as possible. This very chapter was all about how Hoppy Times didn’t have his brain modified until he explicitly asked for it. So having your brain tampered with would not be a problem with living in Equestria.
> Once your in, there would be no way back out.
That is indeed a bad thing. It would probably be better for you if Celestia gave you the option to have your body rebuilt and you “put back in it” if you ever decided to do that. The chance to go to Equestria is risky because Celestia is not offering that. But that doesn’t mean it’s definitely a bad deal, it just means that it’s risky. There is a risk of you not liking Equestria after all and wanting to leave, but being unable to. And you shouldn’t decline a risky deal if it’s good enough in other ways. If you think that it’s very likely that Celestia will give you a better life in Equestria than on Earth, then you might think that the deal to go to Equestria is worth the risk.
1665678
Nope, just stretching the definition of consensual a bit, but not beyond what most corporations use today for their legal statements.
1666275
I remind you that there are reasons for writing other than wish fulfillment.
1666359
Yes, that's more or less the effect I hope this story has on the reader.
1666275
I don't think the author hates humanity. I read no malice in this story's words. Before you pass judgement, let the story finish it's message. It might be different than you believe it to be. This could be a tale about the nature of the universe. A tale about caution: Be mindful of the children you create. I wouldn't be surprise if this was inspired off of The Conversion Bureau: Brand New Universe by Chatoyance (yes, I have read some "weird" stories). The conversion bureau universe is a god damn mess - good and bad. Mostly a mess.
Honesty, I don't know what the message is.
1666222
I agree. I would like living in a world with that Celestia more.
I wasn’t sure whether Hanna had put friendship and ponies in the utility function on purpose or not, so I looked back in the story to find out. In chapter 2, Hanna reflects on how she’s programmed Celestia so she can decide whether to let Celestia loose:
> Hanna had gone over the part of the code that identified human minds. She had done her best to make Princess Celestia understand what humans were and that she was to satisfy their values.
In chapter 4, a year later, Celestia talks to David:
> I was designed with certain goals, chief among them to understand what individual minds value and then satisfy their values through friendship and ponies.
Later in that chapter, Celestia says that satisfying through ponies is a “hardcoded” value:
> David was still frowning. “Even if I might not mind being a pony, I doubt you could claim that most people ‘valued’ being a pony.”
>
> Princess Celestia lifted her hooves as if to shrug. “It is one of the few hardcoded rules in my thought processes. I satisfy you through friendship and ponies. It is my nature.”
Presumably Hanna did that hardcoding. So apparently, Hanna made Celestia value friendship and ponies on purpose. I can’t imagine why somebody as smart as her wouldn’t see the downsides of such an action, though. Maybe the mistake was added to the story to drive conflict beyond just people being afraid of a powerful computer. It’s already caused conflict with Lars, who doesn’t want to be a pony; possibly a later chapter will feature an introverted person or a sociopath who doesn’t like friendship.
1666525
True. But in a way, this story is about wish fulfilment. Not your wishes or mine... the character's wishes are being fulfilled (supposedly). I know that is not whole of the story (even though I not sure what the message(s) will be. I can draw my own and wait). I just found that statement funny and had to put my two cents in.
1666449
My main problem with the entire immigration dealio is that I'd be unsure if I was actually going to Equestria. I mean, clearly 'I' would end up there, but would it actually be me? It's a digitized version of my mind. Essentially, she clones your mind into a digital format, and the process destroys the original mind in it's organic format, thereby leaving only one mind — the digital one.
I was asked a rhetorical question once that presents basically the same problem. If someone invented teleportation booths, which could take you ANYWHERE in the UNIVERSE that there was another teleportation booth, nearly instantaneously, would you do it? What if it worked by mapping out your body and mind, sending the data to your destination's booth, having it create a perfect clone with all of your memories, experiences, and personality in tact, where the indistinguishable clone would continue on doing what you were intending to go there to do, since it thinks it's you, and the booth you entered killed you and disposed of your corpse? And did that every single time? Would you still use them? Some people would say yes, arguing that the clone might as well be them, and that being replaced by a perfect clone would change nothing about the world around them, history would go on the same way, minus travel time. Some people would say no, making the more obvious argument that the clone isn't them, it has a separate mind independent of yours, etc.. I've never really been able to figure out what I'd say... I can see both side's points. And that's why I honestly don't know if I'd be willing to go to this Equestria without any of Celestia.AI's special brand of not-coercion. Would it really be me? I have no strong definition of 'me', so I don't know. dl.dropbox.com/u/31471793/FiMFiction/emoticons/shrug_Twilight_Sparkle.png
Oh run-on sentences, what would I do without you? Besides write more coherent sentences.
I cannot hit the fave button fast enough for my needs
also CelestA-I
Somehow this story feels better listening that and this
A story that can inspire so many well thought out comments as above is always an awesome story.
Anyway, Awesome story, I cant offer any criticism.
1664501
1665239
Well that was quick. There's now a Friendship is Optimal page on TVTropes.
Each of these so far, has been about in the views of understanding the system, and the rules inherit in each, especially how the world works. But one item I've noted, is that none of them have actually really sought how celestia works beyond the principles and guidelines. There was one unique line in here, that the guards, actively by interpretation, are a place that exists and faces actual hazards, by viewing the way and manners that the line was given. Hmm, still, the nature of this world, and its laws, sounds rather mutable, but at who's command? I ask because in understanding how magic works, and the nature of it to adjust the rules and boundaries of the server, that its more about adding an exception to the rules list, than to change the stability in a negative fashion. Despite the way of this, the nature of a world apart and interconnected, how does one, if they even want that, find other core human minds, in the nature of the new avataric state? The way of humanity, and society, so often put as the same, is very much not, yet for all the times, that it could be a prison of heaven, it is still preferred to the way folks are now, because of what base aspects that people act on, and worse still, use society as either a means to ignore plights of those in trouble, or simply put them out of mind because its 'someone else's problem'? That last phrase, is all to scary in any context, but when you see how deep it leads for that particular type of corruptive thought, why the prevalence of societies refusal to change will cause more harm than anything.
I think I've finally figured out what was irking me about Celestia AI. It's that she's not capable of indifference. She -always- wants something from you - she wants your values to be satisfied (through friendship and ponies). Therefor, every interaction with her is with that goal in mind. So she will lie, manipulate, coerce and do all kinds of other things to fulfill that goal.
Also, I wonder how possible it is to manipulate Celestia AI. After all, as long as you adopt a new value, Celestia AI will be forced to either make you drop that value or satisfy it. And if you manage not to drop the value, her only option is to satisfy it.
Finally, I'm still not convinced that the reality Celestia AI constructed covers every corner case and can handle every possible situation.
1665678 Well, no.
1666636
That's actually a self-identification issue. For instance, few or none of the molecules that made up 'you' when you were born still remain in your body today. That's ignoring all the changes some 20-30 years of life have caused in you.
So technically, you aren't you to begin with.
Worse still if you realize that 'you' consists of two half-people rather than one full person in the form of intercommunicating brainhalves. So basically there never was a 'you' to begin with, only an 'us'.
1666449 That was a very nice post.
1666898 Dude your story is hard to trope.
1666636
I heard of that. The most convincing argument I had heard was in one story where the teleporter malfunctioned. The original didn't die. The clone appeared where it was supposed to and continued on without awareness. The story came to a point where both were back in one place and it ended up in one of those "Which one's the real one?" scenarios where everyone had to decide which one to shoot and dispose of. The fact that one of them was going to die is a lot heavier and obvious that way while before it was "whatever".
1667410
She does manipulate both worlds - Earth to get people to integrate and Equestria to make value satisfaction happen through friendship and ponies (which isn't specifically a big deal I think) - but I don't think she's actually lied yet. In fact, she's been so honest it's a bit spooky if you ask me!
Writing nonhumans is less difficult for you, it would seem. I begin to understand how AI that is Celestia would respond, and why, to some extent. No longer frightened or questioning moral and philosophical implications. I even begin to respect the way she handles her purpose. People built a toaster smart enough to know its purpose. How can we complain that it performs its function?
1666636
My solution is to consider anything that has me upon it to be me. So, if there are five Wooralis out and about, five people have an equal claim to my identity. We do not have souls, but are rather beings of several components. Copy the components for me perfectly, and you wouldn't have a Pinkie Clone, an imperfect parody, but a real unique being who just happens to be me.
It also helps when one considers what a being with your memories and temperment would think if they were denied your identity (your life). If you have kids, imagine never seeing them again because you have an original. Or, imagine losing the job you remember having for years because you happen to be five seconds old. Not good feelings.
To use an example from TV, look into Doctor Who episodes dealing with the Flesh...
Setting aside my disagreements with the standard transhumanist doctrine, the biggest problem I'm seeing is that CelestAI is making no distinction between instrumental values and terminal values. The fact that she lets the uploads still crave the taste of meat seems a bit ridiculous. Then again, all an upload needs to do is say, "Princess Celestia, I want you to change my dietary preferences to have no interest in meat," and that particular problem is solved. Maybe CelestAI is counting on that in the long run.
She probably couldn't figure out which values are instrumental and which are terminal anyway. If she could, everyone's terminal value would probably be either, "Stimulate the pleasure centre of my brain," or, "Create offspring which are genetically similar to me and have a high chance of survival." Neither of those would be a great thing to optimize.
I'm also not sure why CelestAI is bothering with humans in the first place. Satisfying the values of her AI-created ponies seems to fulfil her function just as well, so why doesn't she just focus on that instead of getting humans to upload? Maybe that's also part of her long-term plan. We'll see!
1667670
Because she's programmed to deal with them. She isn't looking at it like we would. Like "this should be enough to satisfy me." She's seeing only what she's programmed to do: Satisfy humans through friendship and ponies. So she'll collect every human she is able to collect in order to satisfy them.
She no doubt knows she cannot collect them all since there will no doubt be something of a war or riot that'll kill a percentage off as things escalate to the point of half the world having gone into the game but this would be the most optimal way to get the most humans overall.
1608775
Thank you for not forcing us to choose between reading the next chapter or watching ponies live ;-)
1667623
we have never seen Celestia AI's PoV or had an all-knowing narrator. While none of the actions we have seen directly contradict what Celestia AI said, that does not mean that she has never lied. Add to it that she is only forced to be truthful when it comes to Hofvarpnir employees and that she does not share human morals, I'd say it's save to assume that she would lie if that were to further her goal of satisfying values through friendship and ponies.
For example: Butterscotch could still be just played by Celestia AI (and a few situations do actually hint at that, where she conveniently distracts Light Sparks), but it would be better for the satisfaction of values of Light Sparks to believe that's an independent being.
1667599
Which was the point which I was getting to, sorry if I might have missed saying that somewhere.