Chapter 26 - The trap.
---------------------------------
Chapter 26 - The trap.
---------------------------------
Chrysalis was on the train with her son, and both were happy but for different reasons, The queen because she could finally live her life with her son and Clear Spark because he knew he had a mother who truly loved him, he did not want to recognize it before but deep down he knew that Petal Dance did not care about him as a real mother should do for her son, not as Chrysalis cared for him, and that made him happy.
Chrysalis looked out the window at the scenery while Clear Spark slept on her lap.
"What do you plan to do when we get home?" Cheerilee asked.
"What do you mean?." Asked the queen with intrigue.
"I mean your old job as queen and all that."
"I'm going to keep doing it from home like I've been doing it all this time."
"Remember what Princess Luna said, now that it's going to be made public that the queen of the changelings lives in Ponyville, many changelings are going to want to live in cities in Equestria, I know several who want to live in Ponyville right now." Red Bug said.
"That's true, your life change is an inspiration for everyone and changelings have the right to live among ponies, I know problems will arise at some point and friction will appear between ponies and changelings but I think we can all live together, even though I'm going to need your help on this issue."
"I will give you all the help you need Luna, this lifestyle is much better than the one we had before, I know not everyone will want to leave the security of the hives, but I want those who do leave to have and feel the same security."
"Then we will be able to live in Ponyville?."
"How many want to move here?" Asked the queen.
"As I recall about twenty specifically want to move to Ponyville, including me."
"And why do you want to move to Ponyville?"
"I like it here, lots of clean air, lots of things to do, there is a group of three fillies who are always trying new things and my boyfriend lives here."
"Twilight, do you think twenty changelings might move to Ponyville?".
"I know there are a few houses left for sale but I think there are about a dozen, if some can live together for a while or if they help in the construction of more houses there should be no problem, even though that subject we should talk it over directly with the mayor, she knows how many houses are uninhabited."
"Then when I can I'm going to go talk to her at the mayor's office, and I'm also going to have to do legal-." Chrysalis paused as she remembered that all her papers were forged, she knew this would get her into new trouble.
"After everything that's happened, I don't think you'll have much trouble getting your papers legal after all the Clear Spark adoption one serves perfectly well as a maternity one, the birth one can be done at one of your hives and sent in, the medical paperwork you already have, you just need the residency one but for that, you just need to do the name change at the mayor's office."
"That's good to know, I didn't want to think I'd go back to prison for forgery."
The group laughed softly so as not to wake the colt.
"Don't you miss living in the hives?" Twilight asked.
"Sometimes I do, they were my home for a long time and my race's home too, I know every hallway, every room, every sound, I could walk through them with my eyes closed without getting lost, I miss my old room and my old throne, my old war room, and my trophies, it was cozy and a safe place to come to, I liked living in the hives like all changelings."
Chrysalis looked down to see her little one sleeping peacefully between her paws.
"But I also had many things I didn't like, like the cold and dark nights, the humidity in the corridors, the hundreds of ponies whose destiny was to be a source of food, the always hungry changelings, and the eternal search for food, the fearful changelings when failing some mission I sent them to do, and also the terrified ones who hid in some corner just not to run into me, there are many things I don't miss about the hives."
"But of all the places you could live, why did you specifically choose Ponyville?, literally this is where most of your enemies lived at the time" Cheerilee asked.
"Red Bug, would you like to answer that question?, because your way of choosing the best and most discreet place for me to live was quite... original."
The changeling scratched the back of her neck and turned her head slightly in embarrassment.
"Well... I..."
"She literally covered her eyes and ran her hoof all over the map of Equestria until she stopped at an arbitrary point, that was her amazing selection criteria." Said the queen sarcastically.
"I had worked hard and was sleepy." Red Bug replied a little annoyed.
"It was three in the afternoon and you had stayed up all night playing, you even confessed to me that you were angry that they killed your character and you had to create another one."
"He was a level twelve bard, do you know how long it took me to get him up to that level?".
The group laughed again at the argument between the two friends.
When they arrived in Ponyville there was no one in town in sight, the group pretended to be surprised but Chrysalis knew exactly where everyone was and pretended surprise as well, after all, she didn't want to disappoint her friends, the group walked quietly through town passing by the empty market, this caught Twilight's attention.
"This is strange." Commented the young alicorn.
"Is something wrong, Twilight?" Luna asked.
"It's strange that at this time in the morning, no one is in the market, it's usually full of ponies at this hour, even knowing that Chrysalis was coming back someone should be here."
"They're probably all hiding waiting for me." Replied the queen.
"Surely that's probably it." Replied Twilight as she continued walking with the group.
The rest of the trip was very quiet and uncomfortable, the whole time the group felt that something out of the ordinary had happened, even by Ponyville standards.
"I must say Pinkie took the job of throwing a surprise party very seriously, this gets to be a little scary." Said Red Bug.
As they passed the town hall Twilight and Cheerilee stopped and looked at the building for a long moment.
"Ok, this isn't normal, I've lived in this town for years and I've never seen that building empty, there is something strange going on here."
"Could it be some kind of monster attack?" Chrysalis asked.
"I don't know, but we'd better go see the hospital, surely a doctor or the nurses will know what happened." Twilight answered.
"Mom, where is everypony?, I don't hear no one." Clear Spark asked as they all walked towards the hospital.
"I don't know son, but we're going to find out." Replied the queen.
The group stopped in front of the hospital and they couldn't hear anything from inside either.
"I'm going to go investigate." Said Twilight approaching the building cautiously.
"Be careful Twilight." Luna replied to which the little alicorn nodded her head before entering the hospital, a minute later she exited the building.
"Did you find anyone inside?."
"Yes and no."
"What do you mean?"
"All the patients are in their beds or on some couch sleeping but I didn't find any doctor or any nurse."
"Is this some kind of Discord joke?."
"I don't think so, he's never bothered the patients or medical staff at the hospital, besides Fluttershy knows how to keep him at bay on his jok-." A golden-colored magic beam hit Twilight directly in the face knocking her out instantly.
"What was that?" Cheerilee asked.
"Heads up, it came from the forest." Shouted Luna who opened her wings and flew into the sky but was attacked just like Twilight by a blast of magical lightning, she was able to dodge almost all of them but one hit her in one of her wings making her lose her balance and allowing those lightning bolts to hit her body directly, falling to the ground and knocking her unconscious.
Chrysalis turned around and took a defensive position, Red Bug and Cheerilee did the same and stood next to the queen.
"Sorry to ruin your special day but I really can't allow you to be free, I tried to stop you without raising suspicion but Luna wouldn't let me, so I had to take a more... direct approach, you're too dangerous to be at loose." Said a tall white figure coming out from the forest.
"What did you do to Twilight and Princess Luna?". Cheerilee asked.
"It's just a simple sleeping spell, of course, it's not as effective as the ones my sister uses, but they'll be asleep for hours just like everyone else in the village, I don't want anyone to intervene." Celestia replied.
"Cheerilee, Red Bug, take Clear Spark and run to the forest."
"But what will happen to you." Red Bug replied.
"I'll be fine, I'll finish with Celestia and look for you in the forest, she wants me, not you." Chrysalis carefully crouched down a bit allowing Clear Spark to get off and settle on Red Bug's back."
"Ohhh, so you don't want to use that little guy as an excuse like you've been doing all this time?."
The group bristled at Celestia's words, and Cheerilee took a few steps forward but was stopped by a hoof from the queen.
"Mama I want to stay with you." Clear Spark said.
"Honey, stay with Cheerilee and Red Bug, and do what they tell you, mama will be coming for you soon." Chrysalis approached her son and kissed his forehead tenderly. "I promise I will come for you."
The queen nodded her head and the two mares ran at full speed into the forest with Clear Spark, Chrysalis stretched her limbs and prepared for battle.
"You don't care to know what drove me to seek this final solution?".
"It's because you're afraid and jealous of me, but I don't think you're a jealous mare, even if you are a cowardly one."
"You are on the verge of disappearing from this world and yet you dare to be insolent."
"And what do you plan to tell the other princesses when they wake up and find out what you did?"
"They'll come to understand over the years."
"And Clear Spark, will you send him back to his mother?"
"He can live with Cheerilee for all I care."
"And the changelings who want to live in peace, will you eliminate them too?"
"I will eventually, your whole race has become a personal nuisance this last while."
"I thought you only had a grudge against me because of Canterlot, but I see you are crazy."
"That's possible, but I'll worry about that when you're no longer in this world." Celestia said before attacking without warning with her magic at Chrysalis.
The queen jumped to the side to avoid the solar monarch's magic beam, Chrysalis didn't know how to use teleportation or magic shields like Celestia, but she was much faster, more cunning, and had much more combat experience than the sun princess, and she knew how to use that to her advantage.
Chrysalis flew and threw a bolt of lightning at Celestia which she easily dodged hitting the ground and kicking up a large amount of dust. "Your aim is worse than I remembered." Celestia said coughing a little because of the dust.
"Who said I miss." Replied the queen quickly transforming into a mouse and running at full speed towards the princess taking advantage of the smokescreen, jumping at the last second and transforming into a giant moose, hitting Celestia directly and sending her flying several feet to the side.
Celestia screamed from the blow that had clearly hurt, she angrily got up from the ground and dusted her body.
"Stupid vermin!" Celestia shouted before taking flight straight towards Chrysalis.
The queen also took flight and was rapidly approaching Celestia, but the princess disappeared at the last second to appear behind the queen and hit her in the back, Chrysalis fell to the ground but used the inertia to stand up quickly and jump, dodging a magical ray of Celestia, Chrysalis launched several magical rays impacting on the wings of the princess, making her lose her balance and falling heavily to the ground.
Celestia screamed again as she fell to the ground and as she got up she could feel a sharp pain in her right wing, apparently the queen's attack had broken her wing and eliminated her aerial advantage, but she still had tons of magic inside her.
The princess began to gather a large amount of magic in her horn and planned to launch a sizeable direct attack against the queen, and Chrysalis for her part also began to gather a large amount of magic to respond but at that moment a mare came running out of the forest and stopped between the two figures in combat.
It was Cheerilee, she was covered in wounds and branches from running at full speed through the forest, she was very tired and turned to look at Chrysalis.
"CHRYSALIS!." Shouted the teacher almost panting from exhaustion. "It's the hydra, we need your help."
Chrysalis dispelled the magic from her horn and entered the forest at full speed.
"Where do you think you're going you stupid bug?" Celestia shouted as she saw Chrysalis run into the forest.
Cheerilee turned her head and looked Celestia straight in the eyes, the teacher didn't bother to hide the disappointment she felt towards the princess for everything she had done so far, she then ran back into the forest at full speed hoping to make it into time and save Clear Spark and Red Bug.
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Celestia paranoia has gotten out of control. She determined to ruin any chance at peace because she lost the fight and didn't see it coming.
You gonna be f******* kidding me!
Celestia is definitely gonna be on a BIG timeout straight to the dungeon or the sun.
Why am I not surprised?
Okay, nah, you've lost me.
I wanted to stick with this story for the fluff, but there's literally no in-character justification for Celestia to suddenly become a genocidal maniac, incredible 'nuisance' or no. Not every story needs a villain for the sheer sake of it, least of all if it requires you to completely assassinate a character because of an arbitrary desire for conflict.
Apologies, and I do wish the best for this story, but it clearly isn't for me.
11479321
I agree with you. Its total out of character and throwing me off big time. Its the second time this story does this.
The first time was Chrysalis finding the same colt again. Equestria is big and finding the same pony again a year later in some random part of a different city was a big stretch. Especially after all the good world building with Chrysalis therapy, realizing that she has a desire to help and/or raise foals but can't be there for every single one. I expected this story to do the mature thing and maybe she adopting one of her little changeling who lost the parents in her failed attack or even having some of her own. (She did like Shining after all.)
On a different note, why do have the foals always have a disability too? As a tearjerker? Its not even a big focus like in some other stories and only mentioned a few times for effect. Petal didn't leave her son because it was too hard to care for a blind foal, but because a foal was to much in the first place. If you can leave something out and the story is still the same, you probably should.
This story has been pretty interesting but there's absolutely no justifiable reason for Celestia to be this out-of-character. With all due respect to the author but it feels like she's being railroaded into being a villain just for the sake of the plot which is a shame since Petal Dance already fills that role(you can't get much lower than giving up your foal just so you can be a slut). I wish the best for the author and this story but it's just not my cup of tea.
Hmm a lot peoples waifu painted in bad colors and it hits a nerve.... oh well I like the story. Pretty tired of "motherly celestia all too goody" theme thats been going around since forever.
Keep it up.
11479347
It is actually based on the life of a friend of mine, only he is deaf and his mother sold him when he was about 5 years old, thank heavens the person who raised him for years was a good mother, then his real mother showed up claiming he was kidnapped as a child and he had to go through a long trial and live in an orphanage for a couple of years.
The world is a very cruel place sometimes.
But he is now a good father and loves his two children very much.
11479416
That's true.
And I don't know why Celestia's behavior calls their attention so much, since her appearance she showed resentment towards Chrysalis, she wanted to keep her in prison for life just because she was afraid of her and when she couldn't do it she tried to arrange a trial so that the queen would not get out of prison, that now she tries to destroy the queen is because she only went one step further in her madness.
If Chrysalis can be good I see no reason why Celestia can’t be evil. I don’t mind suspending my disbelief.
11479347
It isn't though because if Clear Spark wasn't blind the first act of the story wouldn't work.
11479278
This goes beyond paranoia. If it was just paranoia, she wouldn't have looked smug when she arranged things for Chrysalis to be arrested. Also, if this was all borne of paranoia over what happened at the wedding, Celestia wouldn't be attacking Chrysalis head on.
11479531
She needs to be in control by getting rid of the one thing that threatened that she wins. It's not logical but people act nuts when they let fear control them. Because she unlike her citizens can't run away from problems she had to learn to be strong and this person threatens that so she has to get rid of it no matter what it takes.
11479527
Celestia could not accept the fact that Chrysalis defeated her in a 1v1 fight, that's why she wanted to keep her locked up, because she doesn't believe that anypony else can defeat Chrysalis and not having the support of her sister or the other princesses, she believes that the only way to save the nation is to eliminate Chrysalis once and for all.
She simply cannot accept that Chrysalis has changed and still believes that it is a trap.
Of course, this whole apocalyptic scenario where Chrysalis conquers Equestria is only in her mind.
11479457
Celestia's first appearance, more than halfway through the current course of the story, had her interacting with Chrysalis' disguise. Then a few chapters later after Chrysalis was revealed and arrested, Celestia was insistent that Chrysalis had a new invasion plan. We didn't see resentment in that behavior, we saw caution. This mare, the caricature you've made Celestia into for the sake of conflict, is not the mare we saw interacting with Crystal Ivy in Chapter 13. Maybe she's the same in your mind, but what you've presented is two very different personalities.
On a more objective note, Celestia is the one character that cannot be portrayed as judging a character based on their species in a post-NMM time period. It doesn't work, as in the setting literally doesn't allow it. A xenophobic Celestia would have led Equestria to its doom sometime in the thousand years she was ruling alone, and that's not something that can be explained away, and definitely not hand-waved. In the same way, she also cannot be portrayed as judging a character based solely on past actions while ignoring current actions, in any version of Equestria where Luna is ruling alongside her in the 'modern era'. A Celestia like that would not make an exception for her sister, so unless the implication is to be that Celestia didn't banish Nightmare Moon because she's her sister, and Luna simply got better on her own (and you've made no indication of this, in fact I wonder how much thought you've actually put into why), your Celestia doesn't make sense.
So what's left? From here it seems like you've just decided that Celestia's crazy. That or it's what multiple people have said multiple times, just conflict for its own sake.
Edit: I guess this was all a waste to type out. Turns out, Cay-Cay's just Cray-Cray. Great.
11479538
So, what? Does she think Luna and Twilight have been compromised, or something?
I definitely don't like this interpretation of Celestia. It really comes out of nowhere.
I've been going through the comments and reviewed the story a couple of times to compare it with the notes I had about Celestia as a character and really the characterization she presents is exaggerated to her presentations in other chapters.
In a nutshell, you are right.
I went overboard in the way Celestia entered the last scene and I promise to fix it, it will take me a while but it shouldn't be more than a couple of days.
I don't want to leave the story aside because I like the way it has turned out so far and I really appreciate all your comments, they have helped me to improve ideas and realize things that just don't work.
I don't want to edit previous chapters to fix the problems because I think it would be unfair to the people who already read them but in the next one I'm going to fix Celestia's personality and take her craziness down a few steps.
I hope this doesn't sound like a generic excuse because I really hate them, and I'm really going to fix the story as best as I can.
I did say in a previous chapter that Celestia was choosing to dig her own grave, but now this is where she's really starting to do so. With her plans to keep Chrysalis in prison foiled, she now resorts to more desperate, amoral, and direct methods; along with outright murder and plans for genocide of an entire race. Luna did say that she was teetering on the edge of the line of monarchy and dictatorship, and old celly is now becoming Daybreaker in all but name and appearance.
And while Twilight and Luna, along with the rest of Ponyville are out of commission, Discord, Cadence, and Shining Armor aren't. Hopefully they can save Cheerilee, Red Bug, Clear Spark, and Chrysalis from both Celestia and the Hydra, along with breaking Celestia's sleep spell on Ponyville's residents.
11479718
LOL! Indeed.
It's absolutely fine if you give her a reason.
IE: she is jealous of Chrysalis's motherhood and changing herself and doing things Celestia wanted to do but couldnt... like have a child and be accepted as a queen and mother.
Or maybe she has a grudge against changelings.
This gives her room for character growth.
But yes... I dont see this as cannon Celestia...
HOWEVER!!! This is your story, damnit... and although it hurts me to see my favorite princess act like this, I love the story all the same. NEVER let a small setback ruin your fun!
So I don't think Celestia needs fixing at all... thats the best part about Alternate Universes...
The stage and script are all yours.
Make Celestia as crazy as you want... just be aware that it is best to give a reason... like something external affecting her.
11479738
I agree and i'll constantly say it "Celestia needs to face punishment. Celestia needs justice done to her" she has gone off the deep end planning to commit genocide, has attacked fellow princesses and put ponyville in danger by locking them in a sleep curse. God dammit Celestia needs to pay for these crimes. I am hoping Faust herself shows up and delivers divine justice to her eldest and clearly lost it daughter. Give me the Justice I beg for!!!
this is your story and you can write Celestia however you want. I mean obviously this is some sort of alternate universe and people should just go with the flow. I mean, Cheerilee here is some sort of mad bomber, anarchist, domestic terrorist. :) Have fun! :)
11479538
Exactly what I was thinking. She become paranoid about the changelings and their leader because she lost.
GOD DAMN IT CELESTIA
11479321
11479347
And yet you were reading the story and said nothing about how Chrysalis turning good is an assassination of her character. A villain turning good is okay, but a hero turning bad is wrong? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Celestia's reasoning may be BS. But from a narrative perspective, Celestia turning bad is just as justified as Chrysalis turning good. Perhaps if the story was told from Celestia's point of view, the progression into madness may make more sense.
But it wasn't a different city, it was a different part of the same city. It was Canterlot both times.
11479359
Is Chrysalis not also being railroaded?
11479464
I am so thankful that I'm not the only one who sees that!
11480308
Sorry
11480686
11479464
11479924
Count me in as well.
11480686
The difference is, that her turning good was done over time, step by step so the reader could follow. Celestia did a 180.
This is a general Problem with FanFiction. If you write for a pre-defined set of characters, the reader expects to recognize them as he knows them. You can start with them heavily altered, but that's called "Alternate Universe". In this story nothing build up to Celestia becoming this evil. Gave me GoT final episodes flash backs really.
If maybe there would have been hints leading to it. Chrysalis reading a tabloid that Celestia is apparently taking dueling lessons. Changeling check stations being build (even if they are useless cause their disguise is too good or something). Anything hinting she became this paranoid and desperate to act like she did.
11480616
True, though I imagine she rarely has to worry about known threats to the realm, unless you count Spoiled Rich.
11479718
I would recommend making just one change. And that's how this chapter ended. Instead of Celestia asking where Chrysalis is going, perhaps the news of the Hydra attacking snaps her back to her senses and both Chrysalis and Celestia go running in to stop the Hydra. Then in the next chapter, you can have them working together, but also arguing with each other in a more comical style:
Celestia: "What do you think you're doing?"
Chrysalis: "Stopping the Hydra. What did you think I'm doing?"
Celestia: "A likely story. You probably planned all along to lead me to the Hydra so that you can let it attack me. Well, it won't work."
Chrysalis: "First of all, how could I have planned that all along while if I only heard about the Hydra attack just how? Secondly, I never asked you to follow me. You came with me on your own accord."
Cheerilee: "Celestia! Chrysalis! Stop your fighting this instant! We have a Hydra we need to stop and your squabbling will only get us killed!"
Chrysalis and Celestia look at each other.
Celestia: "Just know that this doesn't mean we're on good terms. Our fight is just postponed until after the Hydra is defeated."
Chrysalis: "Understood."
I think that the thing that would frustrate Celestia the most is if she and Chrysalis work well together. I think they would fight the Hydra, Celestia being grounded because of her injured wing. Then the way the defeat the Hydra can be similar to DBZ and how Goku and Piccolo defeated Raditz:
Chrysalis: "Do you know any spells that can stop the Hydra?"
Celestia: "One. But it'll take me a few minutes to charge the magic."
Chrysalis: "You do that while I distract the Hydra."
Chrysalis distracts the Hydra until Celestia's spell is charged. Chrysalis will grab onto the Hydra, putting herself in the line of fire along with the Hydra.
Chrysalis: "Shoot it! I can't hold it for long!"
Celestia: "But you'll get caught by the attack too!"
Chrysalis: "Then you'd be killing two birds with one stone! If I let go, the Hydra will move away to avoid the attack! You need to fire!"
Celestia fires the attack, taking down the Hydra... as well as Chrysalis. The realization that Chrysalis just sacrificed herself to save Ponyville causes Celestia to become that much more unsure of herself. So she grabs Chrysalis and gets her medical attention to save her life. When Chrysalis has been saved and is awake, Celestia claims that her issues with her are done since she technically won their fight. Chrysalis would argue that she threw the fight, and was at a disadvantage because of the Hydra. The two of them laugh.
Alternatively, Celestia can be the one to sacrifice herself to take an attack aimed at Chrysalis. This can be a way for Celestia to get her comeuppance. And after Chrysalis takes her to the hospital, perhaps Chrysalis could say that when Celestia's healed, she expects Celestia will want to resume their fight. Celestia declines, suggesting that if the Hydra didn't come, she would've reached a point of no return.
11480704
You're completely missing the point. If Celestia cannot be portrayed as evil because of canon, then Chrysalis cannot be portrayed as good because of canon. The fact that we see how Chrysalis changed proves that this is an Alternate Universe. Your issue is that it's not labeled as an Alternate Universe. And the reason it's not listed as an AU is that not all AU content requires the AU tag. stories that don't require AU tags are stories that exist in a divergent timeline where events happen differently to cause a change from what was canon. There are plenty of stories that are technically AUs that don't have the tags.
And if you believe the changes to Celestia are too big to not have the AU tag, consider this. We see exactly what happened that caused this change. When Chrysalis was first taken in, everyone believed that she had replaced Crystal Ivy. Celestia was obsessed with trying to find a nonexistent pony. By the time she realized that Crystal Ivy was just a character made up by Chrysalis, she was already too far off the deep end to think rationally. Celestia's heel turn makes a lot more sense if you pay attention to what actually happened. Both Celestia and Chrysalis did a 180. Just because one of them did it a lot quicker than the other doesn't make it any less valid.
I'd argue that the only meaningful difference between Chrysalis and Celestia is that one of them never had enough time to realize she needed to see
a therapist.
11480727
I think you missed the point. Characters change, in any story (wouldn't be much of a story if they didn't). FanFiction just gives you where to start. You just have to make any change believable. If you want a drastic change from the start, that's when Alternate Universe comes in.
11480752
You're right. If you want a drastic change from the start, that's when AU comes in. It's a good thing that the change didn't happen at the start. Also, what constitutes a "drastic change"? It could be argued that any story with an OC could be considered an AU because inserting a character that wasn't there before could be a drastic change. It could be argued that all fanfics are AUs because they aren't official content.
Let's say that I grant that a drastic change to a single character is enough to constitute an AU. If it doesn't affect the lore of the world, it's not. But for the sake of argument, I'll grant it. You're still wrong for pointing your finger at Celestia. Celestia's drastic change was the direct response to CHRYSALIS'S drastic change. So no matter how you look at it, you can't point your finger at Celestia without pointing your finger at Chrysalis. So anything that could make this an AU originates BEFORE Celestia even comes into play.
Celestia's drastic change is no less antithetical to canon than Chrysalis's drastic change. And THAT is the point that you missed. I'm not the one arguing that characters don't change, I'm pointing out that Celestia is no less subject to change than Chrysalis (or any other character). Claiming that Celestia cannot be portrayed as bad is exactly the same as claiming that Chrysalis cannot be portrayed as good. Since you haven't argued that Chrsaylis can't be portrayed as good, you have no basis for arguing that Celestia can't be portrayed as bad. Especially considering how many traits you added to Coto616's portrayal of Celestia that wasn't there before. Or was it not you that conflated Celestia's hate for a single race as being the same as xenophobia? (FYI, if it wasn't you, I apologize for the mistake.)
11480792
As I said before, the difference between Chrysalis and Celestias change is the build up. Chrysalis change was done over what, 9 chapters until it was finished. And I wouldn't even call her "good". She still threatened Cheerilee and other small things. That's good by the way, cause it shows its still Chrysalis at the end. And I never said that character can't change. It just need time and reasons for a change to happen. Chrysalis was shaken by a mother not loving her child. As the Queen of Changelings, (I don't know if in this story the insect thing is canon and they are all her children), a ruler who went to war to feed her people, she doesn't take that well.
Lets break down Celestias change. First there was the search for Crystal Ivy. That was actually still normal for Celestia. She show never expanded much on her character, but in general she is seen as a motherly and kind ruler who rather teaches lessons than to punish. She knew Chrysalis only as evil at that point and it would be in character for Chrysalis to not tell where a captured pony is out of spite. And it would be in character for Celestia to worry, yell and get a bit aggressive if on of her little ponies is in danger. But it also is the point, when she notice that there is and never was a Crystal Ivy, that she should get suspicious. What is she up to, what did she do the whole 2 years living in Ponyville? Let's not forget, she thought it worthwhile to redeem Discord, who defeated her once and reigned over Equestria until she and Luna found the Elements. Luna comes in at that points and takes over cause suddenly all Celestia is, is blind rage. Because Chrysalis can't turn good. That line of thinking from a her is the 180. All that follows after that is just result of the 180. It was done in 1 or2 chapters, given no build up. And then there is the hating a whole race thing...
Personally, I would have turned to the comics for this. (I know not many read them.) Chrysalis and Celestia have history. Over the last 1000 years they fought on several occasions. (Not mentioned in here so I don't expect it to canon for this story.) Maybe add an event where she already tried to "play good" only to stab Celestia in the back somehow. A burned child never forgets.
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I thought of such a situation for the combat, in fact I had several scenarios.
I have one very similar to the one you propose where Celestia seeing with her own eyes how she tries to save Clear Spark realizes that she was really telling the truth and helps her, but that didn't convince me because it was already shown that she cares about the foal in the trial and Sunbutt just didn't want to accept it.
I have another scenario where Celestia takes advantage of the hydra and attacks Chrysalis but is saved by Luna at the last moment thanks to the magic of the script
, and then there is a fight against Celestia and she is defeated, this would follow the current story.
I have another one where Chrysalis defeats the hydra and Celestia after a long fight, but the queen when saving Clear Spark is badly wounded and on the verge of death, they manage to take her to a hospital but she doesn't have much chance to survive.
sorry if you don't understand very well, but my translator is not working very well today, that's why the delay
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Chapter 27 is ready and im gonna post tomorrow because im not in home today, family things and that
But follow one of the scenarios here, make your bets
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If you go with scenario 3 then I will come over and I will slap you.
Geeze Cheerilee, you didn't need to go that far into the forest! Well, no worries, Chekov had this one prepared for a dozen chapters...
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(Sorry about the wall of text in the middle of the comment.)
How many times do I have to say something before you actually listen?
I'll start with the last thing you said first. Coto did in fact address the comics and Chrysalis's origins there. It may have only been in the comments section. But aside from that, he has written in the story that they do have a history. Sure, it's not in detail. But he does point out Chrysalis's sins from the past and how many have been hurt. So if we want to address the comics, Celestia has less reason for Chrysalis to be good than any other villain, because Chrysalis and the Changelings have been a reoccurring threat.
Also addressing the comics, they provide more evidence that it's very possible for Celestia to become evil. I'll grant that they were in different realities. But even in the show, there is a basis to assume that it's possible for Celestia to become evil. This is where the specific character of Daybreaker originates. Sure, you could argue that she's only seen in dreams. But the fact that she's seen in more than one pony's dreams, and the fact that she does exist in the comics (which are in fact technically canon), that means that Daybreaker is in fact possible.
I do in fact apologize. I got you mixed up with Moonlight Mist, who's the one who said this. That was my mistake.
Technically, the search for Crystal Ivy wasn't first, it was second. First was finding out about Chrysalis in the first place, which leads to the search for Chrystal Ivy. It may not seem like much of a difference. But I think it matters, since Celestia started that search in an angry state of mind because of Chrysalis. If it had started with the search, Celestia would've been more reasonable. But because she started the search angry, the frustration in not finding the pony likely fed into her anger, making her even more irrational. You're more irrational when you're angry. Or to quote Turnabout storm, your IQ downshifts. And there is no reason why Celestia would be an exception to the rule. For this reason, by the time Celestia realized that Crystal Ivy was just a character that Chrysalis made up, she was already too irrational to consider the idea that maybe Chrysalis had no ill intentions. After all, when Celestia found out about Chrysalis, she likely also did a search for other Changelings. And it's probably not unreasonable to assume that she has found evidence of Changelings "hiding" in cities all across Equestria. This would likely feed into the assumption that Chrysalis was planning an attack. It's also been established that Chrysalis is patient and that Celestia likely knows this. This would explain why she wouldn't have thought about how long Chrysalis has been living in Ponyville. Celestia has to be wise enough to know that some creatures will "play the long game", and likely knows Chrysalis well enough to assume that she would do it too. The reason why Celestia saw fit to turn Discord good is likely because she realized that the only reason why Discord is perceived as evil in the first place is from a lack of empathy as a result of not having friends. But in reality, he was never truly evil beyond lack of empathy. He was more along the lines of (using D&D alignments) Chaotic Nuetral. He's not actively malicious, he just entertains himself. It wasn't until the end of the Season 4 Finale before he could be considered "Chaotic Good". Perhaps I could grant that he could've been "Chaotic Evil" 1000 years ago. But the point is that it could be argued why Celestia would believe he could be turned. She has no assumptions about Chrysalis. Celestia wanted to reform Discord because she saw it as a possibility (and otherwise, they have the Elements of Harmony to use as his Achilles Heel). She wanted to reform Nightmare Moon because she knew that behind the tyrant was an innocent Pony. But if you pay attention, it's not common for Celestia to suggest reformation. Sombra, Chrysalis, Tirek, Pony of Shadows/Stygian, and even Cozy Glow. Celestia never considered them for reformation.
And technically, it's not exactly when Celestia and Luna took the throne, or when it was in relation to Discord's reign. But I digress. The reason why they're not worried about Discord is because of the Elements of Harmony being his Achilles Heel as I said before. (Fluttershy is also his Achilles Heel, and perhaps a bigger one than the Elements. But she wasn't around 1000 years ago.)
If your argument isn't about what happened, but how it was portrayed, then we likely are in agreement. Part of the problem is that we didn't see Celestia's turn happen like we did with Chrysalis. Even Coto agrees that it could've been done better. There's a time skip of weeks that we don't see. But I could argue that there's a time skip of nearly a year in the hive that we don't see, and plenty of time skips during the 2 years in Ponyville. So I agree that we should've seen a better progression of Celestia's descent into madness since Chrysalis's transition was slow enough that the time skips work. I don't think Celestia's transition being fast is a bad thing, but we didn't get a good view of it because it's not from her POV.
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What is said here about Celestia is true and there is not much to discuss, the princess has never been pro-reformation and always ends up locking all the villains in a dungeon for a thousand years or so.
The only one who was different was Discord, and it wasn't even her who reformed him, she asked the main 6 to reform him or turn him to stone if they couldn't do it, so it really wasn't an idea completely in favor of the draconicus, and the same goes for the other villains.
Nightmare Moon, it was an accident that she reformed because the attack was to stop her, not take away her dark power.
Discord's first appearance was to stop him at all costs.
King Sombra, Chrysalis, Lord Tirek, Cozy Glow, in no case did Celestia show a desire to reform them or a hint of pity for them, even with Cozy it was very extreme because she locked a filly in a cage in the Tartarus. In all cases, it was Twilight and her friends who always tried to reform them all.
Even with Starlight destroying Equestria in a parallel future, Twilight never gave up to show her that her way was not the right way and to change her ways and reform, if Celestia had fought Starlight, surely there would be another spiteful mare in Tartarus.
Celestia may be a great regent and lead the nation with love and wisdom, but mercy is apparently not one of her virtues and she is not a believer in second chances.
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When you think about it, Celestia's reasoning does make sense. She and Luna were taught by Starswirl the Bearded, and he wasn't interested in reforming villains either. In fact, if Starlight hadn't intervened, Stygian never would've been reformed and just banished to limbo.
Also, unlike many others, I think they were justified in sending Cozy Glow to Tartarus. There was no hope for her, seeing as she was surrounded by what could've reformed her, and she chose to walk a darker path and nearly destroyed all magic in Equestria. The Mane 6 found a way to weaponize friendship against villains. But Cozy Glow intended to weaponize friendship in order to rule the world. "Friendship isn't Magic. Friendship is Power!". Child or not, she was such a threat to Equestria that she needed to be removed. (I think Hasbro missed an opportunity to make Cozy Glow be Chrysalis in disguise.)
I also don't think Celestia's intent with Nightmare Moon's return was just to stop her. I honestly think that she did want her sister back. But I suppose you could argue that she didn't know that she could be saved.
But I am glad that I understood your point of view so well. That's why I'm so willing to defend what you did with Celestia. I agree that it's a bit extreme, but I don't think it's unreasonably so if you analyze the facts.