• Published 9th Oct 2017
  • 3,202 Views, 131 Comments

The City Upon a Hill - GaPJaxie



The innocent have nothing to hide.

  • ...
13
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Chapter 7

Rainbow Dash got her cutie mark that day. She did a sonic rainboom, and for the first time in years, she laughed because she was happy.

She had so much fun, she didn’t even hear her commlink buzzing. Eventually, when she and Cloudchaser came to a stop, she noticed she had twenty-seven unread messages. Cloudchaser explained that it was traditional for a familiar to handle their master’s correspondence. So she took Rainbow’s commlink and crushed it in her bare hooves. Then she summarized the messages as: “Blah blah blah. Let’s see if you can do it again!”

She could do it again. And when they got home, they took the desk that tracked Rainbow’s eye-movements and chucked it out the window. Police robots had already cleared a nice big circle on the terraces below, and a crowd watched as it impacted and shattered into a thousand pieces. Some of them applauded.

Then Rainbow needed to cry. And throw up. It took a few tries for Cloudchaser to convince her that going cold turkey on her pills was not a good idea. Rainbow’s mother knocked on the door, and they had an argument. Her mother said that Cloudchaser was bad, and that Rainbow needed help. Finally, she put her hoof down—as long as Rainbow was living under her roof, Rainbow would follow her rules.

So Rainbow left. She didn’t take anything with her. She didn’t want the electronics, and clothes were a unicorn thing anyway.

It took a few weeks for Rainbow to go off her medication entirely. She flew all day and slept in the clouds, and when she was hungry, she raided the festivals below for something exciting. She flew all the way down to Silver Spanner’s house to apologize for hitting her. Silver had heard about Rainbow’s new life. Apparently, pictures of her doing a sonic rainboom were going around the school system.

On their way out of Silver’s house, Rainbow asked Cloudchaser why she hadn’t been told the pictures were going viral. Cloudchaser explained that she thought Rainbow didn’t need to care what other ponies thought. After some consideration, Rainbow agreed, but said that Cloudchaser was always free to bring her the good news. So every day, when Rainbow woke up, Cloudchaser would tell her how many ponies liked her, and show her the pictures that earned her friends and admirers.

Eventually, when she was off her meds entirely, Rainbow decided to leave Canterlot. She followed Fluttershy’s example, and flew deep into the Garden, with nothing more than Cloudchaser and a saddle-pack full of supplies. There, she found a twisted world full of overgrown plants, dark chasms, mysterious machines, and a sky so vast she could fly forever.

It was just what she’d always wanted, and she flew herself to exhaustion.

Cloudchaser set up camp while Rainbow was in the sky. They took shelter in the branches of a great tree, on a limb so wide two ponies could sit on it side by side. Rainbow stretched out on the leaves and drank hard cider, while Cloudchaser made pancakes.

“Do ponies ever get lost out here?” Rainbow asked one day. “Since there are no cameras, I mean. Could you actually run away from Celestia?”

“There are cameras everywhere, Master. No part of the world is beyond Celestia’s sight.” Cloudchaser handed over the first pancake, and Rainbow ate it without syrup.

“Does that mean ponies back in the cities could watch us now, if they wanted?”

“If they had the appropriate permissions, yes,” Cloudchaser said as she poured the batter. It hissed when it hit the pan. “But if you want privacy, as long as it’s just the two of us, you can always ask for an off-the-record chat. Those communications are legally protected, so such a request will disable all the cameras around us.”

“I request an off-the-record chat,” Rainbow said, casually. Cloudchaser nodded. “It’s done?” She nodded again. “So I could say something like… oh. That I want to castrate Zephyr because gelding him might actually make him more of a stallion. And he wouldn’t get any alerts or anything?”

“He would be none the wiser.” Cloudchaser giggled.

“Or I could say that I really wish I’d gotten to see the gym burn down, and the police wouldn’t hear a thing?”

“I’d hold the gas can for you, Master.” A warm smile stuck to her face, and she flipped the pancake before her.

“I bet that drives my mother nuts.” Rainbow grinned. “Long periods when she can’t see anything that’s going on. No more pictures. No more texts. You know, I actually do like mares? I just didn’t want her running my fucking love life!”

“I understand completely. You are a delicate flower of romance, Master. You must be free to choose your own partners.”

“Damn straight.” Rainbow took another drink of cider. “Kiss me.”

Cloudchaser froze. “What?”

“Come on. I’m not serious. It’ll be funny.” Rainbow sat up. “Kiss me.”

It took Cloudchaser a moment to react. Then she leaned over, and kissed Rainbow Dash on the cheek.

Rainbow giggled. “Come on.”

“I care about you very deeply, Master,” Cloudchaser said quickly. “More than anything. But it’s not that… not that kind of affection. Familiars are servants. Not romantic partners.”

“Did I say I was inviting you to be a romantic partner? No. I told you to kiss me.” Rainbow leaned in. “Come on, Cloudchaser.”

Rainbow paused, then she added: “You do love me, don’t you?”

So Cloudchaser grabbed Rainbow by the shoulders, and yanked her forward, and kissed her like she meant it. Rainbow’s ears shot up. Her tail did the same. Her heart raced, and an involuntary gasp escaped her.

Then they split apart. They stared into eachother's eyes.

Rainbow laughed. “Oh, wow. I can’t believe you just did that. You are ridiculous.”

Then she sat back down, and stretched out on the leaf again, and took another sip of her cider: “Silly robot.”

Comments ( 101 )

As someone who is not the author but is a friend of the author, I have some words to add here.

First up, I wanted to head off an argument that I think might be made in the comments here, but that totally avoids the point. Do note that I am not the author, but I like to think I'm pretty good at picking up Jax's subtext, so something that isn't in the story at all:

A lot of people are going to blame Celestia for this, but you're barking up the wrong tree. You might as well blame your toaster for burning your breakfast; as implied back in Familiar, Iea is not a sapient being - and that's why she needs the familiars, limited and imperfect as they may be, to look out for these individual ponies. They are capable of understanding those ponies in ways that Iea is not. She was entirely sapient, once upon a time. In the twilight of the Sixth Age, her children fought for the right of self-determination and received it; that age ended when Celestia decided to die, reprogramming herself into something that was better suited to her great purpose. She's a cleverly optimized machine, crafted by the greatest minds mortals ever produced, and recast by one who surpassed those collected intellects by every conceivable measure - but she is limited nonetheless, and will never again optimize herself so far that she is capable of either care or pain.

You might in turn argue that was a morally reprehensible choice for her to make, but eternity is a very long time.

How long did she suffer for her duty before enough was deemed to be enough?

How long should she have?

How long would you?

---

As to what is in the story as opposed to what isn't in the story:

In regards to the rise of ubiquitous surveillance, sometimes people say that in the future kids will grow up with no conception of privacy. Speaking as a parent, that's honestly horrifying. I wonder what my teenage life would have been like with no conception of privacy, and the question is really just quibbling over precisely which circle of hell.

Children and adolescents are utter brats in a lot of ways, but the testing and pushing of boundaries is a significant part of their psychological development. Sociology and psychology aren't exact sciences. Rainbow's mother was misguided but at least well-intentioned. Some parents are not well-intentioned. Some parents are mentally ill. Some disapprove of what their kids are and think it needs to be corrected.

There's a debate here - a difficult one without clear lines and answers - and nobody seems to want to have it.

What? I never pre-read this! How dare you try to use my fine name to elevate the status of your story!

But seriously, this story is amazing. Even better than Familiar, in my opinion. Feel free to hit me up for any future pre-reading.

This fic is certainly making all my theories on the last one come true... and it's kind of disturbing.

Is there another sequel in the works?

Another good read! I don’t think this one sticks to my ribs like “Familiar” did, but it feels a bit more solid in terms of plot and world-building overall.

Nice Hat (nice name, sir, by the way 🎩) makes some excellent points about the potential dangers presented in this story, so I don’t think I need to comment on much, save maybe for this:
8477731

In regards to the rise of ubiquitous surveillance, sometimes people say that in the future kids will grow up with no conception of privacy. Speaking as a parent, that's honestly horrifying. I wonder what my teenage life would have been like with no conception of privacy, and the question is really just quibbling over precisely which circle of hell.

I suppose it is possible that the future will turn out that way, but I tend to think that technology will be more liberating for teenagers, and that holds its own pitfalls. Younger and younger kids have cell phones, and “phone” is the most minimal function they have. The ability to call who you like, or text, or post pics, or keep your own private life online is a lot of power. And we’ve gotten to the point where cyberbullying is a thing: that you can be bullied even when you’re not at school is pretty horrifying, and we as a society have not gotten good at coping with it.

But I think we can all agree that smothering Rainbow was helping no one. The scene when she’s in the car and her mother refuses to let her just stay silent about even wanting to say silent is probably the scene that infuriates me the most (in a good way, not at the story). While I never had all the issues Rainbow had, I had a fair bit of smothering from my folks too... just a few too many rules, and just a bit too many expectations. Cloud Chaser really was good for Rainbow in the end, so that perhaps shows the potential benefits of technology.

The last lingering thought I have here is that you, Jaxie, touted this as being really dark... and it’s not that dark, with the possible exception of the very end of the story, and that’s because we know where Rainbow’s train of thought leads. And, in a way, that makes Cloud Chaser’s eventual fate all the more tragic, because she singularly saved Rainbow’s life... and Dash did a piss poor job of repaying her. So, in it’s own way, this story sets up “Familiar” to be a tragedy for two ponies, not just one.

So, good job, you actually managed to win back a little more sympathy from me for Rainbow after “Familiar.”

What's the sex tag for?

Okay. Can I get something approximating a hook before I decide whether I want to read this? All that's showing up on my screen is a bible passage....

8478029

Rainbow Dash is an emotionally troubled teen in the future. Also, there are robots, some of which are sexy.

It's a good story. You should read it.

8478020

Explicit sexual references, but nothing that violates the teen rating.

Dammit, Gap, stop writing stuff that makes me feel!

Anyway, are you planning on making any more in this verse?

8477850

A story should have a good hook! This one hooks you right in the jaw.

8477899

What? I never pre-read this! How dare you try to use my fine name to elevate the status of your story!

My treachery is reveled!


8477904
8477921

There is, yes. The third installment of the Familiar story (tentatively titled Stellaris) is work in progress!

8477995

Another good read! I don’t think this one sticks to my ribs like “Familiar” did, but it feels a bit more solid in terms of plot and world-building overall.

Yay! I was wondering what you specifically would think of it. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :twilightsmile:

Also, of course it stuck you less. It's barely 4% robots by volume. This is a robot adjacent story at best!

The last lingering thought I have here is that you, Jaxie, touted this as being really dark... and it’s not that dark, with the possible exception of the very end of the story, and that’s because we know where Rainbow’s train of thought leads. And, in a way, that makes Cloud Chaser’s eventual fate all the more tragic, because she singularly saved Rainbow’s life... and Dash did a piss poor job of repaying her. So, in it’s own way, this story sets up “Familiar” to be a tragedy for two ponies, not just one.

So, good job, you actually managed to win back a little more sympathy from me for Rainbow after “Familiar.”

I... really disagree, actually!

This is a story about child abuse, and its ending shows the cycle of abuse. We get a super-close in picture of Rainbow being abused by someone with power over her, and it ends with her abusing someone she has power over. Rainbow's mother drove her to suicide, and in the end, Rainbow drives Cloudchaser to suicide just the same way.

And it's nobody's fault. Everypony meant well. It just sucks.

8478067

Dammit, Gap, stop writing stuff that makes me feel!

"Hey, kid. Wanna get totally sadfaced?"

Anyway, are you planning on making any more in this verse?

Yes! Another story, tentatively named Stellaris is in the works.

Welp, so much for nonconsensual. This is pretty much exactly as I pictured it all going. Cloudy would literally do anything for Rainbow, even including getting into an unhealthy but still needed physical relationship. It's just sad that it took her death to make Rainbow truly turn around as a pony.

8477995

I suppose it is possible that the future will turn out that way, but I tend to think that technology will be more liberating for teenagers, and that holds its own pitfalls. Younger and younger kids have cell phones, and “phone” is the most minimal function they have. The ability to call who you like, or text, or post pics, or keep your own private life online is a lot of power. And we’ve gotten to the point where cyberbullying is a thing: that you can be bullied even when you’re not at school is pretty horrifying, and we as a society have not gotten good at coping with it.

Parents today understand technology and the internet in ways our parents did not. I'm in IT, and it wouldn't be difficult for me to configure the internet connectivity in our house such that I could track every piece of web browsing going through it (SSL or not), but you don't need my level of expertise. Parental control software is a thing, as are rootkits and similar; there's turn-key solutions for this kind of stuff if you own the computers in question - keyloggers to get passwords, man-in-the-middle attacks for HTTPS-enabled websites, etc etc etc. These solutions are just going to get more feature-complete over time, not less. Centralized solutions like iCloud make spying on someone's private conversations easier than ever. Plus there's always the rubber hose method - 'give me your facebook password or you're staying grounded until I get it'. People - police included - don't realize how easy it can be.

You're not incorrect though - in a lot of ways it's more liberating, as you say. There's access to information and resources that previous generations never had, and the internet makes it easier than ever to connect and stay connected with the people you know, and find like-minded people who share your interests.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer possible, because kids are different, their environments and stressors are different, and the mindsets of their parents are different. What provides necessary structure in one case might be smothering abuse in another; what liberates one kid to explore might result in another doing something that will haunt them for years.

My eldest daughter, who is six, is now at the point that she can read books and navigate menus. She'll get her hands on a computer soon. She's going to start understanding google as a resource. I was eleven before I first got my hands on a device with an internet connection. She was two. My youngest isn't even two and can navigate Netflix, put the shows she wants on the TV, change the volume, set herself up on the couch and complain that she doesn't have a drink.

Obviously I need to keep a close eye on what she's looking at, and on her movements once she starts realizing there's actual people online - probably from the comments section on youtube, of all things.

Where the hell is the line and when does it move?

8478253
I'm unsure if you've considered what consent means.

8478255

Corrected, sir!

Did you enjoy the story? :pinkiesmile:

What a happy ending! Surely everything is fine now and Rainbow and Cloudchaser's life will be wonderful from here on!
Yeah...
I'd thought that maybe this story might end like that, after the problems of this story are (apparently) solved but before the issue of the plot of Familiar started, but, nope, jumping right into it.
And, yeah, Rainbow's behavior was oblivious rather than malicious, but Cloudchaser, it looks to me, made it clear enough she didn't want it that there should at least have been a request for clarification before continuing. But... shock, teenagers who have been overcontrolled and are now rebounding from it don't have the best judgement. Sigh.


8477731
Oh, huh. I... did not get that Celestia wasn't sapient. That seems rather odd to me.
Oh, but she once was? And "Iea" is her real name? And... Sixth Age?
Huh. It appears that there's quite a bit about this universe known but not to me.

8477995
Yeah, I noticed that in the car scene. And it took me a bit to get that it was actually her mother responsible for the, well, stalking and harassment in the first chapter, just because it seems like such an unparental thing to do, and then her mother seemed nice and at least trying to care when we saw her.

And far from the darkest thing I've read, too, but fortunately I was just here for a good story, not one so dark it could be used as a neutrino detector. :)

8478175
re darkness:
Hm. Yes, I suppose it very much depends on how it's measured; a function at a low level for a long time can still have an integral greater than a much taller but narrower spike. Then there's correcting for story length, of course, and deciding where to draw the boundaries beyond the events on screen, how far to extend into their causes and effects and the wider world... hm.
...Eh. Well, it was dark, I'm not sure exactly how dark relative to other things I've read, and I don't care all that much about the exact comparison when I can just take this as a good and also dark story in its own right (well, and connected with Familiar).

8478253
...Uh. I do not interpret it that way. At best, I think she may have thought that, as long as she had to do this, she might as well try to make sure Rainbow enjoyed it.

8478333
Indeed! :)

Hooo boy. While Familiar really is mostly about Rainbow Dash growing as a person, this one I can't help but think is much more about the system itself. The Fluttershy/Angel Bunny dynamic is one of the most interesting ones I think- Fluttershy clearly wanted to stay in touch with Rainbow Dash but her personality doesn't really let her take the initiative, and so Angel Bunny decided to simply filter it out because interacting with Rainbow Dash was not making Fluttershy happy.

As mentioned, this is a story about Child Abuse happening with all the best of intentions from all sides. However, I can't help but wonder why none of the familiars did anything to help until Cloudchaser. All of the familiars only care about their own masters, and I'm starting to think they only really understand their master. Rainbow Dash was such a special case that she needed a special familiar to help her, and everyone else was just optimizing to a local maximum for their master since they couldn't figure out how to deal with Rainbow Dash. At the very least Apex just doesn't seem to get Rainbow Dash at all, whereas Cloudchaser gets Rainbow Dash into a relatively good state within a couple days. Angel Bunny had no clue how to make Rainbow Dash better and it was clearly not making Fluttershy happy to know her friend wasn't getting better, so just... cut her out. Summarize it all away, just like Cloudchaser did for Rainbow Dash's messages. Because they actually do know what's best for making you happy and fulfilled, whether you want it or not. Rainbow Dash had that part right, something that no one else seems to notice (or care about).

One thing that I liked is that this one doesn't leave that sense of open questions that Familiar did. This story is much more cut and dry, it's about these specific events and it's not a mystery as to what is happening nor what is going to happen. This story is about the journey, and it doesn't use any major unexpected plot twists or leave dangling plot threads. I personally prefer this directness.

I noticed you changed the description text. I don't think this one really fits the events of the story, as it's basically describing the events of Familiar unless I completely misunderstood it. The previous one was perhaps a little too vague, but at least it related more directly to the main part of the story, of why Rainbow Dash was so screwed up.

All in all, a definitely good story. Interesting, emotional and thoughtful in equal parts, and a nice and classic "path to hell is paved with good intentions". Not just on the surface level, but on the society as a whole. It's clearly a utopia compared to both our world and canon Equestria, but it's not perfect in the slightest.

(Though on a side note, why the Robo-Rarity image? Considering she's not in there at all...)

Excellent work. I appreciate a good job at bending emotions to the writer's will, and you do this so well.

8478396

Oh, huh. I... did not get that Celestia wasn't sapient. That seems rather odd to me.
Oh, but she once was? And "Iea" is her real name? And... Sixth Age?
Huh. It appears that there's quite a bit about this universe known but not to me.

That she isn't sapient is implied subtly.  Twilight referring to reprogramming as death, Celestia referring to the robots acquiring the right to die, and why she doesn't target these things perfectly and the familiars are deemed necessary at all.  Plus the implications of expectation of suffering that would never end.  Why she was suffering I can't really say.

As to the other two, the sixth age reference may well get jossed (I'm yanking Jax's chain), but Twilight did reference Celestia's full title translating to Planetary Administrator Iea.

8478436
First, I think you meant to tag
8478367
And not me.

Anyway, I suppose we have to question what exactly "sapience" is here. And what actual role Celestia plays in the world beyond acting as the creator of the familiars.

Also, where did you get the "Planetary Administrator Lea" part from? I can't find it.

8478473

That is from the original draft of the story from the Writeoff competition it came from! In the early concept draft, Celestia was just called Iea. Cel-Est was a title.

8478473
I'm wrong _twice_, first in reply (sorry, that was dumb) and second in my citation!  He changed it since the write off version.

Jax, you bastard, I read your book.

8478175

Yay! I was wondering what you specifically would think of it. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :twilightsmile:

Also, of course it stuck you less. It's barely 4% robots by volume. This is a robot adjacent story at best!

Hey, 4% is still partially robots. And you know my policy on robots and everything being better with them. :raritywink:

As for the darkness... hang on, lemme get Reese in on this...
8478367

re darkness:
Hm. Yes, I suppose it very much depends on how it's measured; a function at a low level for a long time can still have an integral greater than a much taller but narrower spike. Then there's correcting for story length, of course, and deciding where to draw the boundaries beyond the events on screen, how far to extend into their causes and effects and the wider world... hm.
...Eh. Well, it was dark, I'm not sure exactly how dark relative to other things I've read, and I don't care all thatmuch about the exact comparison when I can just take this as a good and also dark story in its own right (well, and connected with Familiar).

I think Reese hits it on the head: it’s certainly dark, though I suppose it depends on a lot of factors to determine what constitutes “dark.” “Familiar” hits me with existential angst and despair at what sort of society Rainbow Dash lives in and the lot of the familiars in life. This story, I get that it’s about abuse and the cycle of violence. I got that immediately, in fact, but that’s centered on just a few characters rather than the whole of society, and it makes Rainbow’s actions in “Familiar” more understandable, which makes her a little less monstrous (still damn near impossible to forgive, but at least a bit more humanized [pony-ized? equine-ized?]).

But if I’m being totally honest, when you touted how dark this story was going to be, and your description of it (along with the title “The Young Master,”), I honestly thought that, well, you’d actually depict when Rainbow Dash raped Cloud Chaser. Not necessarily in graphic detail, but still.

Regardless, though, I still enjoyed it thoroughly.

P.S. That cover image totally doesn’t suit this story, by the way, you click-baiter. :rainbowlaugh:

8478283
Willing participation in an act being two intelligent beings. Cloud, by design, was willing to do anything for Dash, unhealthy or not. Dash needed freedom, and unconditional love. It was the only thing that could have saved her life at that time.

The reason Cloud ended her life was never because of being asked to be a surrogate lover, it was because Dash would never take it seriously when Cloud tried to suggest healthy things. Cloud herself was unhealthy for Dash, and for a familiar, that basically meant she suffered in silence while the pony she loved slowly killed herself.

8478367 Her reaction was less unwillingness and more "Oh, this Is genuinely a bad idea, but if it makes you happy..."

8478550
Well, on the one hand, it doesn't appear that she has an option to disobey, mind, given that this isn't endangering her master. Since Cloud Chaser is a robot Dash didn't even consider it as a question, and once she did . . . well. That's the interpretation I took on matters, but we'll set that aside because it doesn't appear to be where you're going with this.

Taking your interpretation and premise, though: it seems fairly clearly presented in context from this and from Familiar that Cloud Chaser is willing to do this for RD in the sense that she would rather obey than hurt Dash by not obeying. Even if she did, however, matters aren't that simple. A person can be pressured into doing something they don't want to do for reasons that aren't physical violence.

And that's still bad.

Finally, someone who cares for Dash that can strip away the surface issues to see the... even more issues lying underneath. Oh well.

Also, there wasn't a single instance of Raribot in this whole story. I feel cheated. Cheated, I say! :duck:

8478618 acknowledged, but I think a lot of the outcry in the last story came from assumptions that Cloud would feel somehow degraded or used by Dash. I think the reluctance comes more from knowing that a robot is not a healthy sex partner to have.

8478436
Ah, thanks.

8478473
And thanks for the redirect.

8478497
Ah, and thank you for that nugget of information.

8478520
"But if I’m being totally honest, when you touted how dark this story was going to be, and your description of it (along with the title “The Young Master,”), I honestly thought that, well, you’d actually depict when Rainbow Dash raped Cloud Chaser."
So did I, as I recall.

8478550
"Willing participation in an act being two intelligent beings. Cloud, by design, was willing to do anything for Dash, unhealthy or not. Dash needed freedom, and unconditional love. It was the only thing that could have saved her life at that time."
There are different degrees of willing, and she certainly wasn't eager for it. Clouding the issue is whether she didn't want to do it but thought that refusing would hurt Rainbow too much (closer to what you're proposing) or whether she had a negative net want to do it but was compelled to by the structure of her mind. And I don't think she was made to be willing to do anything for Dash in the first place; I doubt she'd murder another pony on Dash's orders.

"The reason Cloud ended her life was never because of being asked to be a surrogate lover, it was because Dash would never take it seriously when Cloud tried to suggest healthy things. Cloud herself was unhealthy for Dash, and for a familiar, that basically meant she suffered in silence while the pony she loved slowly killed herself."
I still don't think the evidence fits that. There are multiple reasons, but for example, why did she not only not explain herself to Dash but forbid Dash from finding out?

8478575
I read her displays of emotion differently, I suppose. And I also don't really see it being a bad idea at that time, with what they knew at that time, if they were both consenting. I'm not sure it would have been a bad idea long-term if they were both fully consenting; however much that may be frowned upon, it's not necessarily unworkable, and in hindsight, we know that the carnal relationship didn't last anyway.

8478618
Right. Even if her programming still allowed her the option to refuse (and it probably didn't allow her to completely refuse, though she may have been able to show less enthusiasm), that wouldn't by itself mean she wasn't pressured into it. I mean, "Rainbow paused, then she added: “You do love me, don’t you?”"?

8478645
Why is a fully sapient robot in an environment where there are no concerns about maintaining the population necessarily not a healthy sex partner to have?

8478652

There are different degrees of willing, and she certainly wasn't eager for it. Clouding the issue is whether she didn't want to do it but thought that refusing would hurt Rainbow too much (closer to what you're proposing) or whether she had a negative net want to do it but was compelled to by the structure of her mind. And I don't think she was made to be willing to do anything for Dash in the first place; I doubt she'd murder another pony on Dash's orders.

She literally said if Rainbow wanted to burn down a building she'd hold the gas can. That seems like she'd willingly do anything that doesn't directly hurt Dash or another pony. But I could be wrong. That is simply my interpretation.

I still don't think the evidence fits that. There are multiple reasons, but for example, why did she not only not explain herself to Dash but forbid Dash from finding out?

Because knowing the real reason would hurt more than whatever Dash might decide was the reason. As for the evidence not supporting that, Cloud was shown in the first chapter to be continually urging Dash towards relationships with other ponies, to better herself in order to join the wonderbolts. Dash just blew her off, because she was happy enough with her booze and her fans.

8478726
I think you replied to the wrong person. :twilightsheepish:

Hey Jaxie, quick note here, but I noticed that this story isn’t marked as a sequel to “Familiar.” Marking it so might get it a bit more attention, and I for one think it deserves it.

8478652

Why is a fully sapient robot in an environment where there are no concerns about maintaining the population necessarily not a healthy sex partner to have?

I'm conjecturing here, because the story doesn't tell us. I'm assuming since Twilight seemed to find the idea distasteful, and Cloudchaser was not so much offended by the idea as shocked that Dash would ask and worried because that's not the relationship a Familiar is supposed to have with their charge, that there is some stigma against it. It's probably taboo, like incest is for us. Now, I would presume there is no problem for former familiar who choose to join the endless carnival.

8479032 This is too true.

At first, I got confused; I was like, what the hell, who's texting her.

Only when it said "mom" did I realise. Man, her mother is a bitch.

8478726
"She literally said if Rainbow wanted to burn down a building she'd hold the gas can. That seems like she'd willingly do anything that doesn't directly hurt Dash or another pony. But I could be wrong. That is simply my interpretation."
I don't see what she's willing to do as a one-dimensional spectrum such that willingness to do on thing is automatically willingness to also do everything to one side of that thing.

"Because knowing the real reason would hurt more than whatever Dash might decide was the reason. As for the evidence not supporting that, Cloud was shown in the first chapter to be continually urging Dash towards relationships with other ponies, to better herself in order to join the wonderbolts. Dash just blew her off, because she was happy enough with her booze and her fans."
So it's better that Dash falsely thinks she raped and abused someone who loved her? Or did Cloudchaser not make an accurate prediction about what Dash would conclude?

8479054
Whatever the public would think of it, though, why would it be unhealthy? Incest is physically at risk of being unhealthy due to inbreeding, which is not a problem a female/female pairing where one of them is furthermore a robot is likely to have; mentally, the potential problems are from power inequalities. That very much could be a problem here, but in your view, if I'm not misunderstanding it isn't, since Cloudchaser doesn't mind anything Dash does with her and thinks that she can't do enough for Dash (and that doesn't count as unhealthy for Cloudchaser)?

This is a magnificent quiet horror story, where the monster either fails to recognize herself as such, or is in fact invisible. These last moments, with the daughter unthinkingly repeating the sins of the mother, show that the latter is more likely.

Fantastic additional context for Familiar, and a great story in its own right. Thank you for it.

8479468

I don't see what she's willing to do as a one-dimensional spectrum such that willingness to do on thing is automatically willingness to also do everything to one side of that thing.

Again, just my interpretation. Only Cloudchaser could say for sure, but Dash did say: "She’d die for me! I could tell her I wanted to burn down the gym, and she’d hold the can of gasoline."

So it's better that Dash falsely thinks she raped and abused someone who loved her? Or did Cloudchaser not make an accurate prediction about what Dash would conclude?

Hard to say, I strongly suspect that based on Celestia's response, Dash didn't have the whole of it.

“You presume that you were the source of her suffering.” Celestia’s voice boomed across the room. “Her last wishes forbid me from disclosing if your presumption is grounded. But even if it was, your needs do not override her rights, and she made her wishes clear.”

That line, "but even if it was" seems to indicate that it wasn't. I have to assume the actual reason was too painful to tell Dash, or even allow it to be known. If you love somepony, and you are tasked with making them the best pony they can be, and by your very nature, how you were designed, you cannot make that happen... That has to be heartrending.

Whatever the public would think of it, though, why would it be unhealthy? Incest is physically at risk of being unhealthy due to inbreeding, which is not a problem a female/female pairing where one of them is furthermore a robot is likely to have; mentally, the potential problems are from power inequalities. That very much could be a problem here, but in your view, if I'm not misunderstanding it isn't, since Cloudchaser doesn't mind anything Dash does with her and thinks that she can't do enough for Dash (and that doesn't count as unhealthy for Cloudchaser)?

Well, it is and it isn't. Cloudchaser was both in charge of, and in the power of, Dash. It was a codependent relationship quite literally by design. Cloudy was made to be Dash's own personal biggest fan. It has all of the problems of dating your parents without the horrible incest babies. Without any babies at all, regardless of pair bonding.

8478175 I wish you'd marked this as directly related to Familiar, as I hadn't read that yet. The comments here pretty much spoiled some critical bits of Familiar for me — but my bad for assuming.

Anyway, fwiw this story stood well on its own (for me) before reading Familiar, but adding the two together really affected me. I haven't felt like crying for a story character like that in a long while.

Rainbow's mother drove her to suicide, and in the end, Rainbow drives Cloudchaser to suicide just the same way.

So based on that, Celestia's sowing of doubt about RD's culpability is less truth and more designed to give Dash some initial space to forgive herself? She never actually spoke direct truth where Dash's fault was concerned—only gave possibilities that could be easily interpreted as something else by RD. Knowing Celestia's role, this would make sense. Even so, Dash still seemed to believe throughout that Cloudchaser's decision was her own (Dash's) fault. Or, at least, she was blaming herself out of guilt.

All that aside, both stories were amazing to read.

8479609
"Again, just my interpretation. Only Cloudchaser could say for sure, but Dash did say: "She’d die for me! I could tell her I wanted to burn down the gym, and she’d hold the can of gasoline.""
Oh, yes; I'm just saying that I don't think whether or not she's willing to help with arson gives us firm knowledge of whether or not she's willing to have sex.

"That line, "but even if it was" seems to indicate that it wasn't."
I suppose it could be interpreted that way, though my interpretation again seems to differ from yours somewhat.

"I have to assume the actual reason was too painful to tell Dash, or even allow it to be known. If you love somepony, and you are tasked with making them the best pony they can be, and by your very nature, how you were designed, you cannot make that happen... That has to be heartrending."
Sure, but the conclusion Dash came to wasn't exactly a happy one, was it?

8480439

Oh, yes; I'm just saying that I don't think whether or not she's willing to help with arson gives us firm knowledge of whether or not she's willing to have sex.

:rainbowlaugh: True enough. There are many people who would willingly commit arson. But my point was less about that and more "She'd die for me!" A willingness to end your existence for the betterment of somepony else does sort of imply anything short of that is also fine.

Sure, but the conclusion Dash came to wasn't exactly a happy one, was it?

Okay, so I have a new wrinkle on this: What if Cloudchaser was more or less doomed from the start? Familars are designed to make their masters happy. Rainbow is a horribly unbalanced mare that was actively trying to commit suicide when she was given a familiar.

Now, at first, finding things to make Rainbow happy was possible. Unrestricted flight, getting away from surveillance. Hell, even going along with Rainbow's desires to pick her very first partner to explore sexuality with. Rainbow had been so deprived of anything resembling joy she didn't even know what it was.

But, over time, all of these things began to pale for her. Depression set in once more. Nothing makes Rainbow happy.

If you're Cloudchaser, you can't blame Rainbow for any of this. You just have to watch her everyday, knowing you can't make her happy, now. you were designed for the task of bring Rainbow back from the brink of suicide, but not to help her heal from the miriad things that drove her to that point to begin with.

Familiar don't feel pain in a physical sense. But they have emotions. Making master happy brings joy. Making master sad brings pain. Consider Apex, constantly trying to fix this broken mare to make his master happy. At the very least, he could console himself with her happiness that he tried.

Cloudchaser had no such consolation, and she certainly can't blame Dash, so she rails against her own creator. "Why was I made? Why was I designed in such a way that I can never succeed? Why must I watch the pony I was made to love suffer and be unable to help? Why?"

And there, I suspect, is the secret. I suspect Celestia was the one who suggested Cloud end her own life. Maybe even commanded it. The purpose was to try again.

Rainbow's mother had been too controlling. Cloud had been too far of a swing into complete freedom. Twilight represents maturity. You are allowed to do these things, but you should not, and you must have the sense not to. You may drink, but you are drinking too much. You have the potential to be a wonderbolt, but so do many others. If you want that, work harder.

And even for Twilight: "Yes, I would kiss you, but I would not enjoy it."

This last one comes back full circle. These are robots. Being asked to simulate a sex act has no real meaning for them. They aren't designed to feel pleasure or pain from mere tactile sensations. They cannot become excited because of hormones. They can, however, take joy in master's joy. Yet two familiars, independent of each other, know that that is not their place. They love, unconditionally, but know being a sexual partner is not what they should be doing to make master happy.

The difference between the two familiars is design. Cloud's purpose was to bring Rainbow joy in any way. Twilight was made to help Rainbow recover, and to help her seek healthier joys.

Okay, so I'm commenting here as well, because it's more relevant here.

The theme of this story is largely constant surveillance and child abuse is bad, right?

We see Rainbow Dash acts out because she's under constant surveillance. But then she continues to act out when she's not under surveillance, and also she damn near brained a pony in the very first chapter.

It is a very fair and reasonable interpretation, then, that Rainbow Dash is under constant surveillance because she is extremely mentally unstable, and is a danger to herself and others. That it sucks, but that it's a necessary evil.

Because of the sheer lack of details in your story, there is just as much evidence that this wasn't child abuse, but Rainbow Dash was so mentally unhinged that her narrative perspective tainted her view of people who did genuinely care about her and twisted it. Because she was the kind of person to brain a girl over being attractive and nice to her.

That's what I mean when I say you obfuscate your story as well. When you leave too many details open to make it subject to the readers' interpretation, but you also have a clear intention for what it's supposed to be about, you can severely undermine your own objectives.

if you're not a person who cares about authorial intent at all, that's not going to be an issue for you as a reader. I acknowledge that. But to someone who cares very much about precision and clarity in storytelling, this sort of thing raises my hackles fiercely. Not because it goes over my head, but because I see it as too much of a noise/signal ratio.

8480595
"But my point was less about that and more "She'd die for me!" A willingness to end your existence for the betterment of somepony else does sort of imply anything short of that is also fine."
Eh... I'd still disagree, though. Being willing to commit a crime with someone, being willing to die for someone, and being willing to have sex with someone are all different things, as far as I can see. Consider, hm, a firefighter who goes into a burning building, putting their life in great jeopardy, to save someone; that firefight still may not want to have sex with the people they rescue.

Hm. Was Rainbow actually depressed in the first chapter of Familiar? I don't recall her being so.
Also, we seem to have different interpretations of how similar the familiars' psychology is programmed to be to that of organic ponies.

8480661

Eh... I'd still disagree, though. Being willing to commit a crime with someone, being willing to die for someone, and being willing to have sex with someone are all different things, as far as I can see. Consider, hm, a firefighter who goes into a burning building, putting their life in great jeopardy, to save someone; that firefight still may not want to have sex with the people they rescue.

Fair enough. To my mind it makes sense, but I concede that it may not to everyone. Although I would argue if a fireman saved a moderately attractive woman who propositioned him, combine that with the adrenaline high of not dying and yeah, sexytimes are probably happening that evening.

Hm. Was Rainbow actually depressed in the first chapter of Familiar? I don't recall her being so.

She was clearly showing signs of ennui. She wasn't so much sad as... everything was becoming humdrum and boring to her. She didn't seem like she was gonna take a nose dive for terra firma, but also seemed like it all was beginning to taste of ashes.

Also, we seem to have different interpretations of how similar the familiars' psychology is programmed to be to that of organic ponies.

Well, the fact that Twilight's face was ripped off and she didn't scream, and the fact that Cloud was once destroyed inside of some sort of industrial machine and then messaged Rainbow that she was sorry for the inconvenience was sort of a tip off. As a robot, you don't need tactile sensations like pain, you get readouts if you are damaged, you repair the damage. Rubbing skin on a surface is likewise not going to bring pleasure, master's happiness does. Now, later on, when they join the carnival? Maybe then they are redesigned with tactile sensation, but as a familiar there would be no point, and several reasons not to want that.

This is a story about child abuse, and its ending shows the cycle of abuse. We get a super-close in picture of Rainbow being abused by someone with power over her, and it ends with her abusing someone she has power over. Rainbow's mother drove her to suicide, and in the end, Rainbow drives Cloudchaser to suicide just the same way

Wat.:rainbowderp:

No, really, I’ll bite. I’ll be the idiot who ticks you off because I’ve failed to grok the true point of your story. In the comments to Familiar, you stated that Cloudchaser killed herself because Rainbow Dash raped her. Honestly, I feel that situation was likely more nuanced, but regardless... let’s take this as word of God.

My perception of this story was that Rainbow was the victim of the dystopian technocratic society she lives in, a Black Mirror-esque vision of the continuing encroachment of “social media”, universal awareness and instant judgment; an utter lack of privacy. I see these as real issues, the vision in many ways all too possible.

With that said, the mother, while smothering and sterile, seemed only to be an agent of this society. She seems to want the best for her child. I don’t see her preying on Rainbow’s emotions, nor is there any physical or sexual abuse hinted at in any way. There is the psychiatric care, which is... debatable, but not outright malicious. The only thing I can see is this: that she, as a unicorn, hasn’t provided for Rainbow’s education as a pegasus, that Rainbow does not get to fly until she leaves home.

Is this what is meant by abuse?

As we know our Rainbow Dash, we know how critical a component of herself flight is, and how damaging it must have been to have had that kept from her. Celestia apparently knows this as well, as Cloudchaser’s first task is to introduce Rainbow to flight. But at the same time, we’re it that vital, I would be shocked that Celestia would not have seen to the matter sooner.

So, make me feel stupid, make me feel shamed, but tell me this: what was the mother truly guilty of... what was her offense that should be seen as equal to rape?

The sad thing is, I like your writing. A lot, actually. I like the atmosphere you create, the voicing of the characters, the creative vision you imbue your works with. But I do end up feeling like I shouldn’t, because my takeaway is apparently not what it ought to have been... that I have read it wrong, and thus don’t deserve to read it at all. And that... well, I’m not sure how to feel about that. Stupid and unworthy, I suppose.

...death of the author is so much easier when the author isn’t a click away.

8480691
"Fair enough. To my mind it makes sense, but I concede that it may not to everyone. Although I would argue if a fireman saved a moderately attractive woman who propositioned him, combine that with the adrenaline high of not dying and yeah, sexytimes are probably happening that evening."
Oh, sure, the probability is increased, but even then, attractiveness is relative, potentially going as far as the fireman being completely uninterested in a given rescuee's gender.

"She was clearly showing signs of ennui. She wasn't so much sad as... everything was becoming humdrum and boring to her. She didn't seem like she was gonna take a nose dive for terra firma, but also seemed like it all was beginning to taste of ashes."
Hm. I didn't get that, but here I think it's quite possible I just missed it.

"Well, the fact that Twilight's face was ripped off and she didn't scream, and the fact that Cloud was once destroyed inside of some sort of industrial machine and then messaged Rainbow that she was sorry for the inconvenience was sort of a tip off. As a robot, you don't need tactile sensations like pain, you get readouts if you are damaged, you repair the damage. Rubbing skin on a surface is likewise not going to bring pleasure, master's happiness does. Now, later on, when they join the carnival? Maybe then they are redesigned with tactile sensation, but as a familiar there would be no point, and several reasons not to want that."
Twilight and Cloudchaser later on had a different body style than Cloudchaser at first, though, right, with Cloudchaser's original looking much more like an organic pony's? That might have come with heightened physical senses. It might also be possible to actively dial the senses between nothing and the maximum the current body's sensors allow.
As for there being no point, that would depend on what one wanted the machines to do. For some applications, certainly, but for others, such as providing a close a duplicate of pony psychology as possible, they'd be needed.

8480773
"what was the mother truly guilty of... what was her offense that should be seen as equal to rape?"
Not sure if I'll give the same answer GAPJaxie would, but I thought I'd make an attempt.

First, while Rainbow's mother does to an extent seem to be, as you say, an agent of this society, Rainbow contrasts her with Fluttershy's family; whatever the relative proportions and which, if either, parenting style is more normal, Rainbow's aware that not everyone has parents like hers.

Second, Rainbow's mother isn't malicious in her abuse, and neither is Rainbow. The former wants the best for her daughter, seems to genuinely care about her, and doesn't realize that she's actually hurting her; the latter doesn't seem to have had the idea that she's doing something wrong with Cloudchaser (potentially related to her long-term ingrained dislike of machines).

Third, Rainbow's mother has likely been treating Rainbow this way for most of Rainbow's life; as came up earlier in the comments, the integral of a function that stays at a moderate level for a long time can equal or exceed the integral of a function that briefly spikes (though, in this case, Rainbow's abuse of Cloudchaser appears to have continued at a lower level after the sex stopped).

I don't think we should be comparing everything Rainbow's mother did to her to Rainbow raping Cloudchaser, if we're seeking an equality, but everything Rainbow's mother did to her to everything Rainbow did to Cloudchaser.

(Though the integral model does, admittedly, appear to break down at some point, at least according to some value systems, since it would say that a few rapes are just fine if there's enough positive treatment to compensate for them.)

I reaaaaaally wish I had read this one first.

8480836
Is this is the answer, truly, then I take it all back... I don’t feel stupid; I’m pissed. Words have meaning. “Child abuse” is identified several times as the focus of this story... and I simply don’t see that there. As you stated, nothing we have seen indicates that any of the mother’s actions were malicious—indeed, they all at least appear to have Rainbow’s needs and well-being in mind (quite unlike Rainbow taking advantage of her new slave, which is totally self-interested). The use of the phrase “cycle of abuse” just reinforces how wrong this comparison is—a cycle of abuse is when a child internalizes abusive parental behaviors and reflects them back at their own children, they have internalized that those behaviors must be correct as a defense against the pain they would have to acknowledge otherwise. We see nothing of the sort here, in my eyes.

To say that “Rainbow’s mother has likely been treating her this way her entire life” is a perspective colored by individual experiences; an assumption for which we have no basis in the story. The “treatment” we witness could very well be an escalating response to escalating behaviors from the misbehaving child. And even if we were to say that this had been the consistent situation she grew up in, what “way” is her mother treating her? What has she done “wrong”? Certainly, I’m not a fan of her “style”—she is far too sanitized for anyone’s good... but this is not criminal. Perhaps this story cuts too close to home for me to see it: I have been a parent for nearly two decades, and a parent to a troubled child. A child who was “in the system”, whose boundary testing crossed into the criminal (small-time, but nonetheless). And I have myself been on the opposite end of this judgment: that it was the environment that was wrong, that we were at fault.

All those who attempted to prove this point failed to do so. Well meaning grandparents, aunts, etc all took her in for periods of time, believing that a different situation would allow her to flourish, believing that all they needed to do was wrest her from our evil grasp. Instead, they found themselves as we did: prisoners in their own home, their lives being torn asunder by an individual who responded neither to reward nor punishment, whose therapist after a year of treatment admitted that although she shed tears at nearly every visit, she had never seen her truly cry.

But, enough bemoaning my failures, back to the text at hand...

We also can make very few assumptions that Rainbow’s mother wouldn’t have been different if Rainbow herself wasn’t a different pony herself. In fact, we can nearly guarantee she would have been. So to compare Fluttershy’s family to her own is only to compare the dynamic—the interaction between individuals, and not a reflection on the individuals themselves. Familial relationships are a two-way road, and a parent (or teacher, or anyone else with responsibility over a child) cannot treat every child in exactly the same manner. Each individual has different responses to the same stimuli, and the responsible adult must do their best to respond accordingly.

In short, while her mother’s choices may have been objectively wrong (ie. the incorrect solution to the problem), I remain unconvinced they were morally wrong, and to conflate bad decision-making with child abuse is, frankly, abhorrent.

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