"Is corruption inevitable?"
When Twilight poses this question, Luna has an instant response, but Celestia stays quiet.
The princesses discuss this over tea.
Chapters (2)
- Member Since 11th Jun, 2014
- offline last seen Tuesday
sunnypack
Although it left it, it knew that it was right, it made it down, because it didn't know what's up.
sunnypack
Joined 11th Jun, 2014 ·
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I really love the way you convey their emotions... there's something just... just wonderful in your characterization.
The ending confused me a little. Beyond that, this was interesting. Somewhat deep, somewhat complex, and also somewhat powerful. But not overly so.
I like it
Not understand. Explain it to me, please?
It was a good story, untill the ending. That kind of ruined it, because it did not fit.
8315082 Uhm... Twilight was secretly dead the whole time! Because... uhm... THE TREES COMMANDED HER TO KILL HERSELF!!
But yeah, that ending lacked enough context to make sense of it.
People often have the misunderstanding that anything is possible given infinite time. There are many things that simply can't happen no matter how long the yardstick. People/Ponies are the same way. There are things that are likely, things that are unlikely, things that are highly unlikely, and indeed things that are impossible -- that no matter what the circumstances, they are outside the realm of possibilities for said person.
Thus the inevitability of something happening even to an immortal is not assured.
8315473
"Never say never".
After all, things rarely happen overnight. Like, the person I am right now won't even think of learning, say, martial arts. But the person I am tomorrow might be more inclined to do it. In a year, I change enough to actually enroll. In ten years, I am good in it.
Still, right now I am sure it is impossible. Even if it is not. If I won't try - I won't find out.
So I can't touch the moon today. But I can move a little close to it, step by step. Or build a rocket.
8315225
I think the ending referred to the fact that the clock's ticking stopped and Twilight only now noticed it. One could view it as symbolism concerning her fear that Celestia actually is changing, and not Twilight's perspective of Celestia.
Despite that, You're featured.
8315082
The silence is the result of something that was ever-present, ever-constant, and unchanging changing (the clock). It stopped being the same, and at around the same point, a few other things occurred:
The first is the Celestia stopped worrying about if she will eventually be a villain.
The second is that Twilight realized that her perspective had changed.
What these may mean, I don't know.
I hypothesize the ticking of the clock is representative of emotion, particularly doubt. Clocks representing the ticking of the heart, and thus emotion, are often seen in literature though less often than the clock as a representation of life.
For something so central and thematic in this work, the clock is only referenced three times, at the beginning, middle, and end of the story. The first two appearances of the clock appear first as Celestia speaks to the others, “I’m worried about it,” and again after she asks twice, "How can you be so sure?" In both instances, the clock's ticking becomes apparent after a statement or question which leaves those in the room in doubt. In contrast, at the conclusion of the story, the characters have seemingly found resolution and the clock's ticking is no longer apparent.
The idea of the clock representing doubt is complimented by the secondary idea of perspective introduced in the story, first when she looks "down" upon the other ponies, secondly when she realizes emotional shift results in the clock being bothersome, and finally when evaluating her perspective of Celestia.
Looking at both these themes as a whole, it becomes clear the emotional uncertainty and distress faced by Twilight come about as a result of her shifting perspective regarding Celestia. The discussion's topic is irrelevant. Its literary significance lies in how it changes Twilight's perspective of Celestia by introducing her "vulnerable side."
Thus, after brief contemplation, I rescind the initial theory and conclude the ticking of the clock is symbolic of Twilight's relationship with Celestia. When she was younger and naive, her mentor was seemingly all-knowing and perfect, as are parents for most children. However having become an alicorn herself, she has begun to see Celestia's flaws, thus shattering her previous notion that Celestia was perfect. As she states in the story about the clock, "The absence of the constancy being even harder to mind when it is so thoroughly entrenched in the background." Celestia was that ticking, the constancy in Twilight's life. However in light of their discussion, Twilight realizes that Celestia has her own flaws, doubts, and fears, and as a result she has lost the consistency Celestia had once provided, just as the consistent ticking of the clock is lost.
8315082
The clock, which has been emphasized as a constant, broke down with no warning.
This was neat to read. I liked it!
At first, I thought the clock stopping was symbolic of a sort of countdown to Celestia's internal breaking point. After thinking for a moment and looking through the comments, I think 8315881's (very thorough) analysis is more on point. As such, what little criticism I was going to levy is largely moot, with the exception that I don't have much take away at the end. It's a very interesting sort of conversation, which I've explored in my own work, but I feel as though Twilight's reactions don't carry enough weight.
The clock is a lovely piece of thematic environment, and I think if it played a marginally more prominent role its silence toward the end would hit with appropriate gravitas.
IMO, this moment should have been in all CAPS.
that ending was subtle. a bit too subtle. maybe if you had used more "tick-tock" dispersed in the story? rule of threes?
Cadence makes sense. Clearly, having a baby alicorn to look after helps to pare away the hypotheticals and focus on the current.
The ticking clock is a metaphor, but the problem is that it's not a metaphor for anything. It's just generally metaphorical.
Personally I'd argue that if Celestia managed to banish her sister then live with the loneliness and guilt for 1,000 years (a very, very long time to the point where the human perspective can't even visualise it properly) while also directly ruling Equestria by herself the whole time without going off the deep end, she's obviously made of far sterner stuff than she gives herself credit for and is never going to snap. Doubly so given that Celestia's life has basically entered a new golden age with not only the return of her sister, but also two more Princesses to help out and confide in her.
Who's a silly pony, indeed.
I thoroughly enjoyed this little anecdote, it poses a question many are too afraid to ask and answers it in such a precise and yet vague way. It is silly to hypothesise and worry about what could be. Cadence brings up an excellent point in stating that it's best to simply carry on with life and go through each day hoping to get to the end in one piece. Worrying whether something will happen is a waste of time. Better to focus on avoiding getting hit by a car than whether you'll get hit by a falling light post.
To perfectly honest, I'm a culprit of the same thing. I tend to worry about things. Mostly things that either, don't affect me or I shouldn't worry about entirely. So when I saw this story pop up in my feed, I was pleasantly surprised. I love how you describe the interactions between the princesses. It was interesting to see you tackle this existential question and how to answer it.
Thank you for writing this, I've really enjoyed reading it.
There is no one righteous, not even one. Rom 3:10. People have been struggling with this one for thousands of years. It's an important concept to consider, but it's the sort of thing that is real easy to over complicate if you don't stop yourself fast, when it's simple.
Celestia is a very silly pony. She believes (A) she is not corrupt and (B) everypony changes, thus (A and B) she will change to become corrupt.
A) If Celestia is perfect than she would be so far removed from the category of "everypony" that the entire premise becomes dumb. Celestia is already imperfect, already corrupt, already capable of evil. Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown. Celestia is capable of great evil, and must be vigilant against her own mistakes. That was true yesterday, it will be true tomorrow. The biggest danger is not from her capacity to do evil, but from her belief that today, she will not.
B) Think of all the ways people don't change. Think of all the ways changes are cyclic, oscillating between states. Not everything about an individual will become every possibility of that thing over time. In fact, nothing will truly experience such flexibility. We are all unique, we all change in our own ways, and there's no way to know how we will change.
(A and B) The conjunction of these two corrected premises is that Celestia is not perfect and that her imperfections will change year to year, day to day, based on a pattern that is defined by the pony that is Celestia. By her nature, her memories, her experiences. Her friends and family. Exactly why are we supposed to be worried about this?
Good morning, Celestia. Try to do better today than yesterday.
8315473
It's not that simple either. That statement implies that it is dependent upon the actor who possesses agency to not undergo a change at some point during any stretch of this duration. That change could alter anything about their behaviour, their actions and all causality around them.
This is why when you alter something in the past, history in the future could change in any number of ways that you could imagine and more. It could be argued in this example that you could never fathom how many different variations of history could change because it is impossible, but that is only because of the processing power of human thought. Develop something with better processing power, and you will eventually find a way to anticipate increasingly more and more possible outcomes, thus defeating the aspect of impossibility.
Sapient creatures are the embodiment of change just as much as stasis. When you factor the primeval force of change to an otherwise static and vast expanse of time, you have no idea what will happen and cannot determine what is and what is not possible with any true certainty.
The only constraints you have to that end that I can think of are the Standard Model and other natural laws really, anything physically illegal and even then that tends to falter a bit if you go in deep and start to deal with exotic phenomena in far corners of the universe.
I conclude that impossibility is ... paradoxically, an impossible state of being.
I assumed this was about governmental corruption? I was very confused, I'll tell you that.
" Tick tock, goes the clock,
We laughed at fate and mourned her,
Tick tock, goes the clock,
Even for The Doctor.
Tick tock, goes the clock,
He cradled her, and rocked her,
Tick tock, goes the clock,
Even for The Doctor.
Doctor, brave and good,
He turned away from violence,
When he understood,
The falling of the silence."
I am quite capable of being evil on my own, thank you. I don't need some outside force to do it for me. #PinkyPiesMustache
I like these sorts of stories. Thoughtful and introspective.
The clock bit is a little vague. its there, Twilight notices it but there isn't any meaning attached to it that i can see that would signify anything if it suddenly stopped ticking.
ITS ALIIIIIVE
This whole 'clock' and 'ticking' thing really bothers me.
For the story as a whole and the mental exercise it executes, I very much agree with Cadence, though I am much less apprehensive to discussing the ins and outs of the matter for discussion's sake.
Author, could you please give us/me some finality regarding that stupid clock. I feel I have missed something incredibly vital, yet I cannot find a satisfactory answer regarding it.
Ah, I almost missed it, Celestia's little gaff!
No Celestia, if it is inevitable you may be able to delay it, but you cannot avoid it, like a clock ceasing to tick when the spring unwinds enough. Yes, delay it, by rewinding it, but the day you fail to do that...
But still unanswered is the question "Is corruption actually inevitable?". Poor Twilight, just when she thought there had been a resolution...
8318894
I understood the stopping clock for an analogy to the corruption.
"Would anyone notice ithappen? Or only when its already too late?"
Thats the way it happened with Luna; Celestia didnt see the signs until Luna gave in.
Some people would say that, as your lifespan approaches infinity, the probability of you eventually making any given decision approaches 1.
Those people are stupid. Probabilities only apply to things that are probabilistic. The decisions of groups are. Individual decisions aren't. Moral corruption isn't an involuntary process, it's a conscious choice you make.
So no, it's not inevitable - unless you decide it is.
This story wasn't exactly your standard fare, but I personally don't mind the deviation. After all, even you needed to do something different from comedy eventually. And this was a nice thing to think about. A heavy question with probably no correct answer.
And this little addendum was nice as well.
Change. Change can be good, and it can be bad. It can happen so quickly that it becomes an upheaval, or it is so gradual that you won't notice it unless you compare the now to how things were a longer time ago.
Still, an enjoyable story nevertheless!
I have one worry about Twi's inevitability here though - Celestia and Cadance (presumably, since it wasn't mentioned) didn't get corrupted because they had someone to lean on.
As described in this chapter, Twilight is alone now. Sure, there are shorter-lived mortals, but compared to her lifespan, that's fleeting.
Then again, she is a bookish pony, so just following science and magic could stave off some things.
... she'll probably need to zap a few more alicorns into existence so she's not so alone anymore. Then again, that would also mean that those others would eventually share her burdens, and as we know, she wouldn't want to do that to someone else.
Tl;dr, food for thought indeed!
realizes
remove "she"
Replace "she" with "know"
Our actions are governed by wild chemistry in our brains, where things constantly change and new cells grow and die. But our conscience - that fickle thing - is trained to assume that all our actions are actually acts of the very same person, as thinking like "I am not one I was an hour ago" would surely lead to madness.
8319869
Speaking as a chemist, that's like saying a computer's decisions are based in the laws of electricity. They're clearly not - electricity is just what it runs on. If human volition were that easy to explain away, we wouldn't be arguing about it for a good five thousand years now.
8319504 Oops, I'm an idiot. Thanks!
8320103
In fairness, that electricity can affect it, such as a surge or power drop corrupting data, something tiny and imperceptible that sets off a change. So that squirrel that touched two lines down the block just killed your thesis. It's like the whole nature vs. nurture debate, who says it has to be one or the other? Why not both?
8320176
You're bringing up a good question, but most computer scientists these days will tell you that computers are something they call "hardware agnostic." This means that fundamentally, it doesn't matter what a computer is made of. They run on mathematical laws, not physical laws. Psychology is the same in a lot of ways. Serotonine and dopamine can affect a person's moods... but they can't affect their decisions in a real, deterministic sense. People act like they act because they're people, first and foremost - not because they're brains. That influences what they do, but it doesn't determine it.
Life would be so much easier if the psychologists were wrong.
8320192
Well, even if psychologists are always right, nihilistic views can help that.
Nobody exists on purpose.
Nobody belongs anywhere.
Everybody's going to die.
Come watch TV.
Who cares if free will is an illusion, just because it doesn't exist doesn't mean you can't enjoy thinking you have it!
I feel like I'm making a lot of unrelated points right now, can someone confirm that?
8318894
The ticking was symbolic of a countdown to the inevitable, like a bomb about to go off. When Twilight's fears were soothed, the countdown stopped.
8320228
Well, I'm a nihilist, so I guess I'm in a position to say that nothing of this is wrong, but it also doesn't answer anything.
8320244
I had a feeling I was spouting nonsense... They say that voices in your head and making deductions completely unrelated to whatever subject was being discussed are signs of schizophrenia, no?
8320192
I tend to look at that differently. Psychologists aren't wrong, but more importantly they are not right. Most of the manuals and guidelines they work with are more educated guesswork. I'm not dissing the profession, but it's one where there's still work to be done. With so many exceptions, it's impossible to prove the rules they have to work with. Still, they try to do what they can to help people and further the research and information.
8319504 Objection*! Realises is proper spelling outside of Canada and the united States. There are multiple words that N.A. uses a Z instead of an S, so the confusion is understandable.
*more a little bloop than an objection. <__<
Well, if anything I'd say one of Twilight's flaws is curiosity. Not to the same level as LittlePip, but it's still strong with her. So, whatever it is, I think she's going to do it at least twice; once for testing, a second time to confirm the results.
8320192
And as an IT student I will respond with the Law of Leaky Abstractions. It might not matter what computer is made of in 95%, but remaining 5 happen. Like, there is a low chance of a cosmic electron flying across a memory cell and changing stored value. Same with brains, as I think of it.
BTW, due to Quantum indeterminacy there cannot be truly deterministic understanding of brain. These effects mess up computers as well, actually.
8321194
Fair point, but that's a lot like claiming that language runs on physics because a printer's P might break in such a way that it looks like a bit like an F. It clearly doesn't. That sloppy maintenance can turn a Pine into a Fine isn't exactly a revelation about linguistics.
8321758
You see, it is not run by physics in the way you described. Rather, due to physics we have "up" and "down" directions, for example. So language is influenced by physics.
Same with brains - they're influenced by internal biochemistry and external conditions alike with "internal decisions". Yes, in most cases mind inner processes run more or less independent of all that, but it happens - and it's vital not to undermine these factors.
In your case - when your printer may print "p" looking like "f" and "a" looking like "u" - you really should check the printed page if you order a pack of something.
8321964
That's why I said neurotransmitters can affect your thought processes, but they don't make your decisions for you.
Also, as a computer science student, you really ought to be more aware of the difference between information and data. Just saying.
Well that's very ominous. Pretty sure I'm supposed to be reminded of Lesson Zero, but I don't remember getting an actual chill from that.
Weak
I know this is old, but this this actually something I've kinda thought about before so why not give my own thoughts.
No matter what happens life is made up of the actions of you and those around you. The choice of good and evil lay squarely on you're shoulders and yours alone. That curiosity of the "what if i do this?" Is something you can resist and ignore if you so choose. Ultimately I am who I choose to be. And if I want I can choose to refuse evil forever, thus it is avoidable. However likely or unlikely corruption IS avoidable.
Change itself however...