5b: Coffee Alone
I let out a yawn, stretching before sinking deeper into my jacket. The morning was cold, and I was exhausted after completing a night shift. The shift change had already passed, and Sapphire Spirit walked beside me, her head a bit low as she worked on waking up. She shook her head, causing her helmet to shift awkwardly, and I reached down and settled the heavy armor piece back into place. She smiled sleepily up at me. "Thanks, Jake."
"Mmhm," I hummed, my mind barely functioning. I needed Joe's best egg scramble and the darkest, richest cup of coffee he could manage. It had been a busy couple of days since my discussion with Princess Celestia. Sapphire, Dusky, and Luna had done me a favor by keeping me occupied through the whole ordeal, keeping my mind elsewhere. Between helping Sapphire work on maintaining her armor, Dusky teaching me little bits of the sarosian language, and working through a backlog of letters to Princess Luna for her, my mind had been too focused on other things to dwell on the failings of my friendship with Rarity. The hurt was always there, in the back of my mind, but it had grown dull with exhaustion.
I knew there were better ways to deal with the problem, but at the moment, not dealing was fine enough. I wanted a little space, and I had gotten it... but now, as the day wound down, it returned to the forefront of my mind. I didn't really know how to feel about everything. Rarity had lied to me, and it stung to think that she wouldn't tell me about what was, apparently, a pretty significant piece of her life. She and her friends were essentially superheroes, fighting evil and spreading friendship, and her reasons for saying nothing were... what? It didn't make sense to leave me in the dark, especially when she was about to do something dangerous. I sighed, looking down towards my feet, and felt a gentle nudge from Sapphire as she trotted next to me as she bumped her hip into my thigh. "You're getting moody again, Jake," she said, smirking up at me.
"Yeah, sorry. I just can't get my mind off of everything. You've been awesome, though, Sapphire," I said, smiling at her.
"Awesome? I thought I'd been working you hard!" Sapphire said, playing coy, though her growing grin told me she knew that her intent was clear.
"Don't pretend you don't know. I appreciate it. Really. You're a true friend," I said, winking at her.
Sapphire giggled, her wings fluffing out a bit with pride. "Yeah, we ponies are pretty good at the 'friendship' thing." I gave her a look, and she snorted. "Well, most of the time. Your situation is not normal, I swear."
"Nothing about my situation has ever been normal," I said with a sigh. We turned the corner and arrived in front of the diner, walking past the windows. I froze on the spot as I looked through the window to my regular table, feeling like cold water had been dumped on my head. Rarity was sitting there, with Twilight and Spike. Her blue eyes widened a bit as they met mine, and she turned to say something to Twilight and Spike, who looked up at me as well. I quickly turned around, only to be confronted by Sapphire.
"What?" she said, glancing around me to look through the window. "Oh," she amended, immediately spotting the issue, and looked back to me with a frown. "Well, it's a canny spot for an ambush, I'll give her that."
"I don't like ambushes," I muttered, moving to leave. There were other places to get coffee.
Sapphire held up a hoof, stopping me. "Hold on. Don't you think this is a great opportunity?"
"No, not really. Why, what do you think walking in there will accomplish?" I asked.
"You could talk and get this settled. This fight needs to get resolved, and I'll be honest: you've been miserable since everything happened in Ponyville. You either need to make up, or get closure, and you're only getting that by going and talking to Rarity, Twilight, and Spike," Sapphire said.
I sighed, shaking my head. "I don't know. I wanted to talk to her... to all of them, but this wasn't how I was planning on doing it. I'm exhausted, Sapphire."
Sapphire pointed behind me. "She is, too. Look at her, Jake. Really look."
I somewhat reluctantly turned to look back through the window of the diner, and my eyes met Rarity's once more. I tore my gaze from hers, noting the messy state of her coat, the loose curls in her mane and tail, and the slightly smudged makeup. She was a bit of a mess, and her ears drooped as she noticed me noticing. I closed my eyes, exhaling a long, hot breath filled with the anger I had been holding close. I nodded to Sapphire. "Okay."
"All right. I've got your back, Jake. No matter what," Sapphire said, her tone soft as she spread her wings open a bit.
The statement, though simple, bolstered me, and I walked towards the front doors, Sapphire at my side. We stepped into the cafe and were hit with the scent of fried food and strong brewing coffee. Margarine spotted me and trotted over, tossing me a cheeky grin on her way over. "Quite the harem you've assembled, mister. Still looking for a few good mares?" Marge said with an overly-saucy wink.
I smirked, despite the dark mood hanging over me. "Yeah, I need a gal that can make a strong pot of the darkest roast she's got, and a mountain of eggs. Know anypony?"
"Oh, I have one in mind," She said, turning and heading for the kitchen. "Seat yourself, hun!" she called over her shoulder as she went to put in my order.
"And some hayfries, please!" called Sapphire hopefully after her.
"I'll give 'em wings!" Marge replied as she disappeared through the doors to the kitchen.
Sapphire grinned happily, and I stood for a moment, allowing the ambiance of Joe's to sink in. I felt some of the tension bleed away simply by being in this place, and it gave me the last push I needed to stroll over to my usual table. Twilight, Spike, and Rarity sat together on one side of the table, Rarity having shifted herself to be beside her friends and make room for Sapphire and I. I stared at the three of them for a long moment, trying to figure out how to start. Sapphire, in the meantime, hopped up into a seat across from Twilight with a total lack of concern for the moment, sitting down with a happy sigh and taking off her helmet. The glamour on her coat and mane dissipated immediately, and she shook out her mane with a toss of her head. We all watched her, and I arched an eyebrow. She looked up at everyone, blinking owlishly. "What?"
I shook my head at her and spoke up. "Mind if we join you?"
"We were hoping you would," Twilight said, gesturing to the other open spot across the table from them. She smiled, but it was a bit strained. Rarity watched me intently, her eyes glancing from me, to Sapphire, to Spike and Twilight. Spike, for his part, sat quietly between Rarity and Twilight, his gaze fixed firmly on his lap.
I paused, watching Spike for a moment and feeling my heart sink a bit. I'd definitely damaged whatever relationship I'd briefly developed with him, perhaps irreparably, and I knew that he was the first person I wanted to talk to. "Thanks," I replied, sitting down. The seat put me firmly in front of Rarity, who gave me a small, careful smile. I returned it with a slow nod, and focused my attention on Twilight. "Princess, I—"
"Twilight, Jake. Please. This is a discussion between friends, not of subject and royalty. I hope that you feel that way, still, even after what happened," Twilight said, interrupting me.
"I don't know how to feel about all of that, really, with a few exceptions... Twilight," I said, speaking slowly and firmly. "I know that I did somebody here very, very wrong, and... well, I want to talk to Spike, first, if he's okay with that."
Spike looked up at me, his eyes widening a bit. "O-oh."
"Hey," I managed, swallowing hard. What could I say to him? "... I don't believe in 'sorry'. I don't think it fixes anything. It's just a stupid thing that people say when they don't think there's anything else to do or say, and it's rarely true. So, I'm not going to say sorry to you, Spike..." Spike looked up at me, confused, his eyes narrowing a bit. Twilight visibly bristled at my declaration, but I continued on doggedly. "What I will do is promise to do anything I can to make what I did to you right. Anything you want, or think, or whatever. You have my word."
Spike's eyes widened further at this, and spoke quietly. "Anything?"
"Anything. You don't have to decide now. You can ask whenever you like. So, you have that, and a promise that I won't ever, ever do that to you again. Threaten you, or... get scary like that. That's a part of me that I'm working to get rid of, and it came back because I was...angry, and scared. Does that make sense?" I asked, hoping he understood.
"Um... yeah. I guess. I mean, we've all done dumb stuff when we were mad, or scared. I know I have," Spike said, looking up at me and smiling slightly.
"Yeah," I said, nodding in agreement. "You don't have to forgive me, or anything like that. I'd honestly prefer you didn't, if it's all the same to you. I need to remember why I'm trying to change. Okay?"
"Well... okay. Yeah. I'll think about it, anyway." Spike agreed hesitantly.
I exhaled slowly. Twilight gently prodded Spike with one hoof. "Do you have anything you want to say to Jake, Spike?" she asked him.
"Well, yeah." Spike swallowed, looking up at me again and drawing in a deep breath. He closed his eyes as he started speaking. "You really scared me, and it really hurt. I've only ever been really scared by bad stuff... bad ponies, or monsters, and you... well. I wanted to be friends... but I might wait to get to know you and trust you again before we call each other that."
His declaration was like a punch to the gut, and I took a deep breath in before speaking. "Okay. That's more than fair. And I'll do whatever you think is right to earn that trust back. Fair?"
"Yeah," Spike said, nodding, and peeking open one eye to look up at me. "You're... not mad?"
My gaze softened. "No."
"O-oh. Well... good." Spike squirmed in his seat, and spoke up again. "Also, I'm sorry for lying to you."
"You're not the one that should be apologizing for that," Rarity spoke up, placing a hoof gently on his back.
I turned to her, frowning. "Yes, you're more than forgiven for that, Spike," I said to the little dragon, even though my focus had already shifted away from him.
"Jake," Rarity began, reaching up one hoof absentmindedly to brush it through her mussed mane. "I... don't even know where to begin."
"I have thoughts," I muttered.
Twilight interrupted me quickly, her voice sharply cutting me off. "Hold on, now. She's trying to sort it out, Jake. Don't bite her head off. We've been going through everything that happened, and Princess Celestia and I had a long conversation with her about her lies of omission. She's explained herself to me, and you'll get to hear it for yourself... but it's my turn to talk."
Rarity and I both faced Twilight, and she reached one wing out and brought Spike in close to her side with it. "You threatened Spike. Even if you've told him you'll make it right, you and I need to have a talk, too. I'm the closest thing he has to a big sister or mother in this world, and I'm responsible for him and his well-being, which you damaged with your... outburst!" Twilight placed both hooves on the table, leaning forward. "You also were rude to my friends, and—Rarity excepted—they didn't do anything to deserve that kind of treatment," Twilight added. "So, before you and Rarity get this mess figured out, you have to promise that you'll be returning to Ponyville in the next few days to apologize to them... or make it right, or whatever you need to do. They all want to give you a chance to explain yourself and make it up to them, if you are willing."
I leaned back a little, surprised by the force in Twilight's voice. "Yes, of course." I'd planned on doing that, anyway.
"Also, all that talk about apologies being empty... I don't know where you learned that, but it's wrong. If you are sincere, then it's the best first step anypony can make towards making things right. I think this is a perfect opportunity for you to learn that saying you're sorry can be a genuine expression. You know what you can do for me to make things right?" Twilight placed one hoof on top of Spike's head gently. "You can apologize to Spike."
I paused, taken aback by her request. "... If you think it will help."
Twilight frowned. "This is a piece of your old life that you need to let go. We're sincere in the things we say, here in Equestria. We're not just seeking to lie or speak empty words. I know that you probably received many empty apologies with no action behind them in your life before now, but all three of us are here to show you that this will be different. That we are different."
I considered her words for a few long moments, before nodding slightly. "All right... I trust you, Twilight." I focused my attention to Spike. "Spike, I'm sorry that I didn't tell you this earlier, but I am very sorry for how I acted. And my offer still stands: Anything you need me to do to make it right, and I'll do it."
Spike smiled at me in a much more genuine way. "Thanks, Jake... it means a lot to hear you apologize."
"Good!" Twilight said, snorting once in anger, before she inhaled and blew out a long breath. "Good," she said again, but more gently. "Thank you."
We were all quiet again, and Marge took the moment to swoop in with a mug of coffee and a plate of eggs for me, and a basket of hayfries for Sapphire. She topped off the coffee with a smile on her face, but said nothing. I had too much in my head to do more than give her a nod of thanks as I took a sip of the coffee. I barely tasted it, but the effect was instantaneous, bringing my mind a bit of clarity from the fog. I began picking at my eggs, not really feeling hungry, but it gave me something to do with my hands.
Twilight cleared her throat. "I've said my piece, and as long as you're planning on coming to Ponyville, then I feel like we can really put this behind us... except for this last bit." Twilight closed her eyes, collecting her thoughts, before she looked at me and her ears drooped back. "I feel partially responsible for what happened in Ponyville the other day. I know I mentioned my friends, and that we were close, but it just never occurred to me that we'd need to discuss things like how we... well... how we're the Elements of Harmony. I don't like to think of ourselves as that, because our friendship and bond goes far beyond just that one aspect, but it's an important aspect. Something that we all deal with in our own way. For some of us, like Applejack, it's no big thing... for others, like Rainbow Dash, it's something she's eager to boast about. Rarity..." Twilight stopped, and looked to her friend at her side.
Rarity inhaled a shaky breath, and then spoke. "Far be it from me to call myself humble in this moment, but I do not speak of it often because... well... being a hero has never done me any favors when it came to personal relationships," Rarity's voice was quiet, apologetic. I frowned, and her ears fell flat in what presumably was embarrassment or sadness. "I have had suitors call on me before, Jake, and often they do so not for who I am, but the power I represent and the connections I possess. I have been led on a few times, only to discover these ulterior motives, and the experiences left me hurting. To be chased by a stallion, to give your heart, only to find that they are less interested in you and more interested in the things you represent?" Rarity sighed, looking down at her hooves that were crossed in front of herself. She drew her forelegs in, almost hugging herself. "The day I met you, I relished the wit and companionship you offered, and knew that there couldn't possibly be any strings attached. It gave me hope that a stallion... a man... could be interested in me for who I am."
"So you lied," I said slowly.
"Yes. I lied because I couldn't bear the idea of you being interested in me for my position, and then I never told the truth because I feared you would be scared away if it came to light that I was more than a popular designer... and then I lied because the lie had gone on for so long, that telling the truth would have damaged our relationship if it was not done with careful explanation and tact." Rarity sighed. "I failed at that quite spectacularly, which perhaps is my just desserts, as t'were."
I shrugged. "So, that's it, then?"
"No, that is certainly not 'it'. It is my explanation, certainly, but I haven't yet begun to apologize for how I acted." Rarity leaned back a bit, seeming to brace herself. "I deceived you, Jake. I omitted the truth at first out of fear, and then continued because I was afraid that the lies had gone on too long to be able to be explained. I had ideas, but when you arrived on the same day that the hydra wandered into Ponyville, I panicked. I completely lost my mind for fear of the truth, and I acted in the vain hope of preserving our friendship... even if that friendship was one built on a lie at the core. It was wrong, disgusting behavior, and I can't hope to say enough to explain the depth of my... self-loathing for how I acted. I haven't been able to sleep, eat, or work since it all fell apart. I've been sick knowing that I failed you as a friend, Jake, and I am truly sorry for it."
I sat quietly, observing her as she spoke, watching for other lies, trying to gauge her and her sincerity. I leaned back as well, looking down at my hands that were clasped together in my lap. My knuckles had gone white from the tension, and I tried to relax a bit, letting out a long breath. Sapphire reached one hoof out and gave me a gentle pat on the knee, reassuring me with her presence, and I shot her a quick look of gratitude. "So, you lied because you'd been burned before by people choosing to chase what you represent. And that led to having to lie more... and so on, until it grew out of control and blew up." I shook my head. "I just... I'm still upset. I hope you don't expect me to just forgive you and move on. You've lost my trust."
Rarity bit her lip. "Of course, and I completely understand." She looked to be on the verge of tears. It hurt me to see her like that—physically causing my stomach to churn—and I realized that my feelings for this mare ran deeper than I'd thought. It helped to clarify some things, and I took a deep breath.
"I'm willing to give you a chance to make things right. After all that you did for me, and how I acted towards your friends, I wouldn't feel right to just leave it at that. They've all given me second chances. Spike gave me the opportunity to make things right, even though he got the worst of my behavior." I swallowed the lump in my throat and clenched my hands against my knees, willing them to stop shaking. I was over-emotional, and it was a struggle not to yell, or cry, or do something to let it all out. I felt out of control, and it was another gentle nudge from Sapphire, her shoulder against mine, that allowed me a bit of a release. I leaned against her for a moment, taking the offered strength. "I have good friends here that want me to find a resolution to this whole mess. I've been miserable, Rarity. It's been hard, and part of why it is hard is that you'd have been the pony I'd have gone to to help deal with this... but what am I supposed to do when the person that's been my best friend is the one that's causing me grief?" I ran a hand through my hair. "It's been shit without you. I'm upset that you're the one that did this, more than anything, because I've needed a friend these last few days, and you were my best friend."
Rarity nodded, tears spilling down her cheeks. I cursed under my breath and stood up. I needed to go. Half of me wanted to overturn the table, and the other half of me wanted to reach across the table and wipe away those tears. "I'll be in Ponyville in a few days. I need some time to calm down. It's still too fresh. I'm sorry." That was all I could manage before I was walking away.
"I'm sorry, too. I'll make it right, Jake," Rarity said behind me, and I turned and looked at her hard. She was still crying, her mane askew, unkempt and beautiful in the same moment. I nodded, and despite myself, I gave her a small smile. She smiled back, wiping at her cheeks with one fetlock that smeared her makeup without care.
I was halfway out the doors before I realized that I'd forgotten to pay, and I turned around to see Sapphire behind me, gesturing for me to go, her bit bag already out. I turned and left, walking the opposite way so I wouldn't have to walk by the window and see Rarity again. So she wouldn't have to see me again. I couldn't bear to see her crying, even if some little piece of me was glad that she was miserable. That little, ugly piece told me it was right, after the pain she'd caused me. I pushed that down and shook my head. "Damn it."
"Whew. That was something!" Sapphire chirped, trying to dissipate the tension a bit as she followed after me. I was moving fast, walking in long strides that made her trot to keep pace.
"Yeah. It was." I stopped in the middle of the street, turning to face her, and I knelt down. "Thanks for being there."
Sapphire smiled at me. "No problem, big guy. I said I'd have your back, no matter what."
"I'm glad I can trust you. I needed that. I don't know what I'd have done without you there, Sapphire." I reached out and put a hand on her shoulder, patting her armored back. "Seriously, thank you." Sapphire stepped forward into me and put an arm around my neck, pulling me into a hug. I was surprised, but it was a welcome comfort, and I returned it gladly. "Thank you," I whispered again. I didn't know when I started crying, but I quickly got it together and stood up, wiping my cheeks. "God damn it. I don't need to be breaking down in the middle of the street."
"You sure say that a lot. Is God, like, the alicorn equivalent where you're from?" Sapphire said, smirking up at me and ignoring my reddened eyes and wet face.
"Something like that, only way less present. I guess it depends on who you ask. He never did anything for me, anyway. It's just an expression," I said, glad for the change of subject.
"So, he's a dude?" Sapphire snorted with amusement. "No wonder he's a crappy alicorn. Mares are way better at that kind of thing." I laughed, and it felt amazing. My voice caught as the release almost made me start crying again and I stopped laughing, struggling with myself, trying to find a center. Sapphire grinned. "Sorry. Maybe not the time for humor?"
"No, it's good." I chuckled, shaking my head. "I mean... yeah... I dunno. There's lots of figures like God where I'm from. Many gods. It's just weird, because here in Equestria, you've got... well, real gods. Or whatever they are. I think Twilight mentioned somebody named Discord in my too-brief education on Equestria."
Sapphire groaned. "Oh, gosh, Discord. Yeah, he's a god, or something like it. He's a bit of an ass, if you ask me, and that's not just because he's part donkey. Also, don't say his name too loud, he likes attention."
I was mostly distracted. "Yeah, sure. I'll be sure not to say his name three times or whatever."
"Why three times?" Sapphire asked, tilting her head.
I paused, wondering how to explain a weird pop-culture reference. "Never mind, I just won't say his name at all."
"Probably for the best," Sapphire said with a nod. "He's bad news. Always messing with ponies."
"Yeah? So, why do Celestia and Luna tolerate him?" I asked, walking at a much slower pace towards the castle.
"Well, they didn't. He was a stone statue for a long time... almost a thousand years. But he broke free, and Princess Twilight and her friends stopped him... and then they reformed him. He's friends with those six, now, and he doesn't mess with ponies much anymore. Supposedly he turned over a new leaf. A few of us think that it's because he's in love with one of them... did you meet Fluttershy the other day?"
I considered the ponies I'd briefly met the other day. "'Meet' is a strong word. Fluttershy is the yellow one with the pink mane, right?"
"Yeah, that's the one. She keeps him in line, I guess. She was the one that really worked to reform him, and she's dealt with all of his tricks. Even after he betrayed Equestria, she still forgave him... and he's never quite been the same since all of that."
I thought back to how the yellow pegasus had cowered behind the others, and was immediately skeptical. "You're sure you're thinking of the right pony?" Then I remembered how she'd yelled at the hydra and made it run away. "... Wait, no, scratch that. I can see it."
Sapphire laughed. "Yep. That's how they are, though. They've dealt with bad ponies and others, and they always find ways to bring them to heel. They make friends, or reform them, or just... magic them away. They've never failed us."
I glanced over my shoulder at the diner, and then looked down at Sapphire. "So... am I just another bad person that they're working to reform?"
Sapphire stopped in the street, forcing me to stop as well, and she flew up to eye level with me, glaring at me. "You stop that line of thinking, right now. Rarity may have burned you, and you have every right to be hurt, but those six are nothing but sincere in how they go about things. They individually have their failings, sure, but they don't just reform ponies or people because it's their job... they do it because they believe in others, and they believe that everypony can be better. Even the bad ones. And maybe you fall into that category, but the bottom line is that they aren't insincere in their offers of friendship, their efforts at reform, and the second chances they give to a lot of beings that most ponies would write off. They do it because that's the kind of ponies that they are."
I was a bit taken aback by the vehemence in Sapphire's voice, but her strength of belief in those six mares actually put me more at ease. "Okay, I believe you."
Sapphire eyed me for a long moment. "Don't think that you're just another project for them. You aren't. You're a good person, Jake, even if you haven't been all that good for all that long."
I nodded, sighing. "Thanks."
Sapphire nodded back, and settled back onto her hooves, her wings ruffling. "You're getting my feathers in a fluff, here. Let's get you back to the castle and get you some sleep before you have another personal crisis."
I smirked. "Sorry for being a pain in the wings." I nudged her shoulder playfully with my hip as we walked together towards the castle. "Hey, why don't I give you a wing massage or something when we get back to my room. Least I can do." Sapphire's wings flared out with a snap of feathers, and she turned to stare at me with a blush. I stared back at her. "What?"
"N-nothing! Come on!" Sapphire said, mostly ignoring my confused look as she trotted towards the castle. I shook my head and sighed. Ponies were so twitchy about the strangest things.
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Roll credits.
(But for real, lovely story)
8542319
Pfft, we're not even halfway done with this story.
my body is ready :0
Dayum, that was deep. But good. Keep it up lad
Man, this just gets better and deeper as we go! Love it!
Whilst I’m not a big fan of “wing boners” because I’m burned out on them; when placed properly, they’re absolute gold!
Wait a minute. Twilight made the enchanted hat to keep him from noticing anything wrong. Why is she acting like she wasn't complicit here?
8542319
8542332 Yanitur would be good at cinemasins
*ding*
8542413
To be addressed at a later point. Needless to say, Rarity isn't just in trouble with Jake.
An update! Hoorah!
Your stories are awesome, as always, man.
8542449
Ah, that makes some sense. I was kinda surprised no one brought it up.
Will we be getting any chapters from Rarity or Twilight's perspective. It would be interesting to see how they're processing the situation, considering their complicity in catalyzing it.
8542449 Good. I was kind of wondering that too, as Twilight kind of came off as though she had nothing to do at all with this whole "deceiving Jake" thing. I realize that Jake probably hasn't realized that Twilight was the one who made the hat, but it was still jarring to apparently see Twilight getting off scot-free with her little stunt, especially with her little speech about hurting her friends when she in turn helped hurt the best friend of one of her friends. Let us hope that Celestia is aware of the stunt her "precious" former student pulled.
yay, interludes! Don't we all
hatelove them?P.S. I seriously can't get over the fact that he got served fucking sliced mango WITH PEEL last chapter. Who does that? I don't think that's how mangoes work :O
What does she want to say what he hasn't already heard?, somewhat this is still okay, but everyone against one again.
Like I said, I don't remember everything, but please don'T paint him as the bad guy here, don't make it look like his reaction towards "everyone" was bad.
This is actually a nice moment to say that they can accept others to, that aren't doing things like they do. I'm just a little bit tired of the ponies wanting that they do stuff the way they do it,
YES
I hope you are going to actually let him prove himself, I don't think you answered me to an comment yet. I have to admit that the last two or 1 1/2 chapters changed the way I look at this story, but after enduring the last chapter, I'm a bit more willing to give it another chance.
as much as I hated a few of their reactions, this makes a little bit up for it.
a year before I hated that shipping to, because it did that "she was my first friend so ""I have to love her"" " thing. I dislike some of those shippings in games, movies and animes that are made out of the main char and the first human he meets (which is mostly a much mor eboring alternativ to whatever you see after that.). I dislike those obvious choices.
Here those jokes feel just right, with any other character I see sometimes, they only look like assholes to me. Is it that the other authors doesn'T really manage to make it look....well right?
With him here I have the feeling I understand him and because of that his jokes and behavior aren'T giving me the wrong idea.
8542498
I think I actually agree, but I could image that Twilight chapter it full off "oh what an asshole" (more or less)
I would probably be more interessted in how Rarity is thinking about the situation.
8542413
they probably should have mentioned this too in this chapter, when they talked about whos fault it was.
8542603
poor writing, I expect. that sounds like an excuse the author made to justify things that he forgot about once the scene no longer needed it.
I think you spotted the problem earlier- they are treating him like a helpless child. which is really strange, as he was being treated more like a foreign ambassador earlier when the story started. and it had this 'i want to help you' undercurrent to it... and this split chapter of 'you messed up kid' really kills the entire helping theme... so what, they only want to 'help' him overcome his tragic past if he is nice all the time and never yells or gets angry, even when others betray his trust?
heck, this last part, you may as well have twilight say 'stop treating spike like an adult'...
it was a lovely story until this chapter which changed the entire tone of the story, and became hostile to the human protagonist. why do so many stories with humans fall into this rather toxic trap where a human is hurt/betrayed, and then forced to forgive? that's now how people work. its poor writing at best. why cant we have a story with logical consequences, like someone holding a grudge Forever
and just staying away from the crazies they know they cant trust. sometimes maturity is to know when to walk away.
8542675
edit: I was sceptical since the moment when they all blamed Jake in Ponyville.
I hate it if they do that, not sure if you agree, but this happens more than often in many stories.
I actually thought some of his behavior and little talk was pretty much okay and he had some nice words for Spike, they actually felt more important than what Twilight wanted him to say. How does she expect him to make a real apology in a way he doesn'T means it or believes in?
It was a bit weird how brainwashed Spike has to be by how the world seems to work for them, that this made his day when he sais sorry instead of what seems to mean much more. Hey I would think he would have even stopped going after Rarity (even if he just noticed his true feelings), if Spike would have wished for that.
8542675
I often feel like when something like this happens, or a character is acting like it isn'T important to them what our little humans thinks, that the human would have the right to get angry, give the pony a piece of his reality and that they actually talk about stuff and well....
I remember a story in which Sweetiebelle had a crush on a human and they pretty much forced him to love her.
(I know this isn'T exactly what happened here but still...)
The whole time I wanted the main char to actually get his point across, managing to tell them off and even break her heart if needed to get his point across (I hate if they just stay there as a playball). Then after Sweetibelle would have understood the situation, they could have started with creating the real relationship.
What I mean is, I hate it if the main char is just forced to accept whatever happens to him, like the main six trying to purify him. (which Jake was kind of hinting at even if I was okay with how that part went here).
I'm just glad that he has at least one babysitter less. I admit I forgot the reason he had his little babysitter friends, but I still think she could start giving him his freedome now, or was this about the ponies maybe attacking him? I'm not sure why they think he still needed to be watched before this happened.
Well I don't want to make this look like I would hate the author for it, but I hope he isn'T going to make it worse and let's the others realize their mistakes to as in maybe Pinkie apologizing too or whatever happened there, that or having Jake actually not apologizing for that if he doesn'T feels like he needs to. It can'T be everything his fault. (I know I keep saying everything even if I feel like they slightly agreed to have done mistakes too, but still...)
I stop here now, I'm tired and I notice that any further sentence would go nowhere.
It very much annoys me that Jake immediately ate his words and caved to Twilight after explaining why he doesn't believe simply saying "sorry" is as important as taking action to prove you regret your transgressions against others. This concept of acting over talking would have been a great foundation to build his friendship with Spike on, and shown the young drake that there are more approaches to friendship than the ponies pursue, and from the perspective of an outsider like himself at that!
A strong potential bond between the two was dashed for no good reason and I can't help but feel they'll simply be going through the motions with Twilight acting as a mediator from now on because Jake can't stand his damn ground. He's trying to change for the better, but he's far too submissive for his own good and this behavior won't be healthy for him or anyone else in the long run if he's trying to make friends.
I actually enjoy that Twilight's definition of forgiveness and his clash―it drives home just how different the two characters are and gives room for character development (especially considering Twilight isn't as wise or infallible as she wishes she were in comparison to the likes of Celestia). I don't enjoy how she treats their relationship as a justification of her values in trying to reeducate what she seems to deem a broken creature with a backwards mentality instead of a friend who is trying to better himself because he already has goodness in his heart.
Jake needs to learn that, despite his traumatic past, he is not wrong for his cynicism or his emotions and he need not suppress or "fix" himself to better suit the trappings of Equestria. Regardless of the friendship trite being tossed around, Equestria is not as peaceful as the ponies pretend it is, as evidenced by the monster attacks, the weaponization of the Elements against global threats, and Luna's mention of the utilization of mercenary companies before her banishment.
Forgiveness and change may be themes of this story, but so is being a product of your environment: Jake would not be Jake if he became the pony ideal but on two legs; the guy must have something he will not relinquish at the request of his equine overlords. He had a spine on Earth, don't tell me he lost it the moment he appeared in Equestria.
8542675
Or maybe Twilight had no idea why Rarity needed that soundproof hat. Or maybe Rarity lied to Twilight about it. I'm not a fan of how you just call "poor writing" when you disagree with something.
Jake has only apologized for the shitty things he did, like being an asshole to Spike, or being a jerk to Pinkie Pie after she saved him. And Twilight and Jake are BOTH right. An apology is hollow unless it is backed up with deeds. But Jake's opinion that sorry is simply not worth saying at all is something born from a life when people would make hollow apologies and not follow up with action...
That said, if you are sincere, than an apology IS a good first step to making things right.
As for them treating him as helpless: in the face of a hyrda, with no real plan, I think that an unarmed human is probably about as helpless as Jake literally was. Additionally, Jake's soloution was violence, which is pretty opposite of the way the Ponies handle things.
Also, since you hit so many points, let's talk about "hostile". Twilight's only hostile reaction was her anger at Jake threatening Spike, which I feel is reasonable. Celestia was also upset, but as soon as Jake was given the opportunity to explain the situation, she quickly shifted her attitude to one far more sympathetic. The rest of the cast has been on Jake's side pretty much 100%.
So, there ya go. Typically I let people think what they want, but when somebody calls me out on 'poor writing', I feel the need to respond. Hope that clears some of your concerns up and offers an explanation for things.
8542805
She also targeted Jake's beliefs.
While this was something that fleshes out her character, I do not like how she seems to dislike the idea of others having different mindsets than her about forgiveness. Jake gave a very good reason for why he does not trust words, telling Spike he couldn't do anything to earn his trust but show him through action that he wished to make amends, but then Twilight, angry that Jake doesn't do things her way, tells him to apologize anyway.
This is at the expense of Jake's character. There's a lot of untapped potential here that keeps getting shot down before it can fly. He had a unique life before arriving in Equestria, so he has a unique perspective as a result. Put that to use. If Jake were more staunch in his beliefs, then while Twilight may not have been satisfied with his refusal to bend to her thinking, it would have greatly benefited his relationship with Spike to show that it isn't wrong to think differently about sensitive topics.
I must admit that you are hitting all the right buttons by showing that Jake is more than a killer or criminal with his vulnerability and compassion, but he is rapidly becoming dull as a person given he does not seem to have any convictions.
EDIT:
Discord's hellish 1000 year imprisonment in stone; Luna's hellish 1000 year imprisonment on the Moon; Sombra's demise; Tirek's imprisonment in Tartarus. That's all off the top of my head. In all honesty, I'd prefer to be shot than dealt the Equestrian equivalent of "justice."
8542837
Twilight is reacting like a mother whose child was treated poorly. It's not 100% rational. Jake relents because Twilight is correct that Jake's experience is born from trauma and not a well-adjusted world view, which is a lot of why he's trying to be different.
8542675
8542722
So, my opinion here, a few things to consider.
A. He basically IS a helpless child...at least when it comes to certain parts of the world. Remember, he's new to an ENTIRE WORLD. There's a lot to learn. As far as we know he's spent most of it safely in the castle. So, sure, they trust him with a lot of things (as an ambassador) as was pointed out because he's had plenty of experience there by this point.
How much experience has he had monster fighting? How much of his past do they know? (the answer is very little). What weapons would he have to use against said monsters? He is an ignorant, unarmed individual charging in to fight something he has NO chance against. Heroism and stupidity have a lot in common. This was more stupidity than anything. Noble and brave yes. But very stupid.
So be careful applying our knowledge as readers and assuming the characters in the story have that same knowledge. We know he has combat history. They don't. Not really. We know what the world of Equestria is like. He doesn't. Not really.
B. As for other things. Do you really, REALLY think it is "normal" and healthy for a person to, at the FIRST sign of disagreement/lying/whatever in a relationship, to walk away and hold a grudge for the rest of their life? No. That's what kid's do. That's what the immature do. You know, that thing you accuse him of being portrayed as. You literally argue that they're unfairly treating him like a kid while arguing he should behave like a kid. It's a bit contradictory.
Do you know what drives me nuts? When there's a big problem created in a story where the entire solution is to have a talk, but instead the characters jump to crazy conclusions? Looking at you most rom-coms. Do you know why that's irritating? Because it rarely happens outside of bad media.
And this lie isn't even THAT big of a deal. Frankly I think he's over reacting a bit, but I can understand where our protagonist is coming from. And you guys REALLY REALLY seem to think that the believable course of action is to, what? Refuse to talk to Rarity ever again, blame her and Twilight for everything, make no attempts to actually understand WHY she did what she did and just go about life like that.
It reads like a bad teen soap opera.
Last few things.
1. I trust the author that Twilight will get her talking to later. But this talk wasn't about him and Twilight. It was about him and Spike, and him and Rarity. And that took a lot out of him. (Again, you're mad he didn't stay and talk more while also being mad he bothered to talk as much as he did...)
2. Cultural and personal differences are a thing. Him not wanting to say sorry and Twilight making him say sorry reads as more of a "This is how we do in Equestria" (from a pony who is basically the goddess of friendship) than it does some sort of "I don't believe you're sincere."
3. Our protagonist has quite literally expressed interest in becoming a better person. Why on EARTH are you guys so mad when his friends try and help him accomplish that?
4. His "babysitters" are, indeed, completely necessary. Don't forget, again, that he is on an entirely new world. There are going to be things he doesn't understand for, quite probably, years. There are ALSO going to be things in that world that don't understand him. His "babysitters" are (probably) there to mostly just make sure he has back-up in case of a misunderstanding. Had said "babysitters" been there during the Hydra attack none of this stuff would have happened. Not because of their capacity as guards, but simply because they have knowledge he hasn't yet acquired. They're a safety net.
Anyway, that's all. I could be very wrong of course, as this is all just my opinion.
8542841
No, she is reacting like a mother who doesn't want her child to hear something that could make them start asking dangerous questions. She would have been satisfied in hearing that Jake intended to right his wrongs against Spike if what you said was true. However, it was made clear with this line:
that Twilight's true problem arose from Jake's cynical view on the concept of simply saying the word "sorry" to make wounds go away. Twilight literally tells him that his thoughts are wrong before this. She isn't being a good guardian to Spike or a good friend to Jake with the overbearing conceit in this line. She is showing Spike, an outsider, that Jake, another outsider, is not allowed to think differently than the Equestrians.
And this hurts him. As I've already stated, we already know Jake is trying to change and become a better person, but with his submissiveness and his lack of conviction he becomes too two-dimensional to be worthy of being the focus of the story. He has a foundation, yet no substance when he has nothing he's unwilling to let go of. Him snapping at Rarity and Spike were the strongest moments of his character, but now he's gone back to relenting. He needs to come to the realization that just because he had a messed up life, he doesn't need to surrender his identity completely to Twilight and the other ponies around him.
Awesome to see a new chapter. Perfect thing to get my weekend started, as I've been eager to see more of this story go up.
Loved this chapter and interlude. All of Jake's relationships with the ponies around him, and how he is trying to adapt and move on, and the internal monologue and thoughts he has are some of my favourite parts of this story. I find his thought processes and the conversations and back-and-forth between him and the other characters wonderful to read.
Can't wait for more, and great to see it still coming. Thank you!
8542799
This, so much this. I may not be so eloquent but I agree wholeheartedly with SirReal. The jarring change from what I remember Jake being like on the human world and how he is reacting now totally makes him feel like a spineless weakling bending to the ideals of the pony world without any real conflict or explanation for his change in character. IMO one does not simply capitulate to a totally different status quo so easliy.
I will admit, it is a long time since I read the introductory chapters of this story but it is still how I feel after reading this chapter and the one before it.
Edit: this too
8542864
Wow there are I lot of people I agree with commenting on this story.
8542864
Relenting in the face of somebody you trust as one of two ponies that have basically spent months educating you on Equestria?
Let's not split hairs, even if it was a strong character moment, Jake threatened Spike, who is a child. It was an awful thing to do, and his reaction was far and beyond what was even remotely appropriate.
His anger at Rarity is justified and he offers her a second chance, but he is not letting her off the hook. He is obviously not surrendering his world view, because her tells Rarity he wants her to make it right, and Rarity is paying attention, because she promises to make it right. Just because he gave ground in the face of Twilight does not mean he is surrendering his views. I spent a lot of dialogue between Rarity and Jake trying to make it clear that he still fervently believes in "actions over words".
8542879
See above comment. Read Rarity and Jake's dialogue again. Jake tells Rarity to make it right. He might have told Twilight yes, because he trusts her, but all of his actions directly after reflect that he expects things to be made right. I don't really know how to make it more clear.
8542885
No, this is relenting in the face of somebody telling you that what you think is wrong and should change. This is the very definition of surrendering your world views. You believe something, and when somebody else tells you you're not right, you immediately agree with what they are saying. Again, this is a display of a lack of conviction, and therefore an insight into a shallow and lackluster worldview.
It's a good thing he promised he would do anything to display his remorse for his insensitivity, then. This would have been perfect closure to the awkwardness between them if Twilight didn't decide to be so close-mindedly contentious.
Only dialogue, if that. Aside from him snapping in Ponyville, I cannot remember any specific instances where Jake notably decided not to waver when his ideals were challenged. He kicked a drug habit offscreen, he decided to stop being a mercenary offscreen, he chose redemption offscreen. The only thing detailed to us is him slowly being emasculated chapter by chapter. The Jake of Earth who was one of the most wanted criminals alive is far more interesting than the Jake of Equestria who can hardly stand up for himself. It's hard to believe these were the same person at times.
8542920
I don't know what to tell you. Jake's story isn't about who he was, it's about who he is trying to become. He doesn't want to be Jake of Earth, because that guy was about to kill himself because of a drug habit and a complete lack of a center beyond "I kill people for money". If you are here looking for an "asshole anon" story or an edgy story about a bad guy, you might have come to the wrong place, because this is a romantic story. Yes, it has drama and yes, it has tension, but the whole point is that the person Jake used to be is not one he wants to be again. If I was writing him as he was, he'd be a villain, plain and simple, and we got to see that in his outburst in Ponyville where he threatened Spike. The entire point is that Jake does not want to be that person because he is self-aware enough to realize that person was going to die, either by his own hand or the hand of another, because who he was was literally killing him.
8542928
Indeed, but his aim shouldn't be to become a living doormat.
You seem to think that passing comment about him being more interesting when he was a mercenary somehow equates to me saying I want him to be an unrepentant piece of trash, but you couldn't be more wrong. If you read what I said in an earlier comment, I made it abundantly clear that I understand he is attempting to better himself because at his core he is a good man, but what you aren't getting is that I said he lacks substance. He thinks about how bad he once was, he sometimes is a jerk and he likes Rarity. That's about it.
When I say he needs "substance" I mean he needs grit, strength of character. Seeing him disagreeing with someone other than Rarity and refusing to change his mind would be a great way to do this. And again, his relationship with Spike would have benefited from him daring to think differently in the confrontation with Twilight.
While Jake may be trying to change himself, he does so by forfeiting his pride, dignity and personal principles in favor of accepting everything told to him by Twilight and the Royal Sisters. Jake made terrible mistakes and has a chance at redemption, yet one of the problems with him is that aside from a few nightmares and moments of weakness he's already been redeemed.
So he apologizes and still gets grillwd out for being horrible? Even though he was lied to and then risked his life to protect those lying to him? I'll be honest, this doesn't feel like thw same story at all. Its insulting as hell. He put his life on the line for them after they put him into a suspicious as hell act, and they expect him to just beg forgiveness? I don't see how any of them aside from Spike could call him a friend.
8542967
Twilight was very much wrong in the way she handled the situation. It was already defused and she let her emotions get the best of her because she didn't subscribe to Jake's philosophy of "don't say, do." She has the malignant thought in her head that Jake's opinions are incorrect, and she told him, untruthfully, that Equestria is not as violent as his world and therefore he must change to fit Equestria's interests instead of being a true friend and telling him to change to be a better him.
But this alone doesn't constitute an unhealthy relationship.
What is unhealthy about their relationship is that Jake blindly absorbed what she told him simply to avoid conflict instead of standing up for himself. If the two were to learn from one another, instead of Twilight focusing on "educating" Jake, their relationship would be closer to a friendship; but it's tainted when one side is cowed into listening unquestioningly to the one with more authority.
Quite
more than [he was petrified by Celestia AND Luna, Luna was imprisoned on the moon go exactly one thousand years so Discord was stoned for more than that
8542991
So, you aren't wrong, per se, but it could be that this is a "wait and see" scenario. Maybe he's over doing it in his attempt to be unlike his old self. Maybe he's so afraid of falling back into who he was that he's too willing to follow others.
Or he could very well be a bit shallowly written. If we were 1-2 chapters until the end, then sure, he'd be way too willing to cave to others. But we're not even halfway.
So I'm not saying you're wrong. You very well could be right. But maybe part of his growth is finding that middle ground, where he can be his old self...just not ALL of his old self. Personally I hope this is the way it goes. A character is more interesting when they have room to grow, not when they're immediately at their, for lack of a better phrase, "final form".
8543012
I hope you're right, but the cynic in me sees Jake's important character development already passed long before the story began.
He's no longer a drug-abusing lunatic wanted in near every country, and he's seen the error of his ways. What's left after that to make him compelling? He's at the end of the road from what I see in terms of his journey. Now all he needs is to court Rarity after a nightmare or two more and the story's over.
He needs to have a violent relapse in behavior caused by some trigger, undoing months of the therapy he's been through that makes him and the ponies seriously doubt his progress and question his motives. Like being visited by the ghost of your past, the shadow over your shoulder that you can never truly dismiss regardless of how hard you try. That would be interesting to read.
Don't let the haters get to ya Prop. This was an excellent chapter and I enjoyed it. Keep those chapters coming!
8543058
Where are these "haters", sir? I see nothing but people expressing legitimate concerns with legitimate flaws in the story. Haters are those who simply say "This story sucks" or something of the like, offering nothing constructive. And worse than haters are those who attempt to curry favor by willingly overlooking these flaws. Critics on the other hand say what needs to be said about the good and the bad.
Have you ever heard the quote "False friends tell you pretty lies whilst true friends tell you ugly truths"?
8543075
Leave this dude alone, please. He didn't direct anything at you.
God, I'd love to engage you properly, but I am on a mobile phone. So, just chill and wait. I'll be home in an hour, and then I can actually address you when I'm not attempting to string sentences through auto correct. It is impossible to discuss things when you lose your entire text body to scroll up and read a comment, so it is just coming across as fragmented garbage.
So great to see a new chapter on this especially on my birthday! Thanks man!
8543250
Happy birthday!
8543254
Thank you very much!
So one thing I have a question about (which may have been answered in an earlier chapter's comments. aka I didn't read all comments (to busy reading story)) is, what happened to the things he had when he came to Equestria?
Also got to agree commenting is b when using phone.
8542799
Okay, let's go point by point.
1. You seem to think that because Jake agrees to apologize, it totally wrecks that as an avenue of potential relationship building. Why is that the case? Doesn't it make sense that you would be able to both apologize, AND also back it up with deeds? Additionally, Jake still stresses in every point of dialogue that he is going to act to make it right, both before AND after Twilight asks him to actually apologize. In addition, if you didn't catch it, Spike was VERY uncomfortable with the lack of apology, and Twilight picked up on this. Spike certainly was being receptive to Jake's assertion that he'd 'make things right', but as a non-traumatized, mostly well-adjusted CHILD character, he values the social contract of actually saying that you are sorry. He has expectations of what he is supposed to hear from Jake, and he was obviously overwhelmed by Jake's offer to do 'whatever he needs' to make it right. Why? Because he was a child, confronted by an adult that he was intimidated by. That's all in there. Notice how Spike reacts, his hesitant way of speaking, word choice, etc.
2. As for Jake being 'submissive', he isn't. Again, the entire time, before and after Twilight tells him to apologize, he continually asserts that he will make things right, and that he expects Rarity to do the same for him. He says this again and again, and Rarity echoes it when she is apologizing as well. Just because a character agrees to comply with a demand somebody makes doesn't mean he's thrown out his belief. Jake is a survivor, and part of his survival skill set is the ability to go with the flow, and that ESPECIALLY applies to the way he deals with people he sees in positions of power. Think about the type of people Jake would have worked for in the past. Openly questioning or criticizing them, especially when they're in an irrational mood like how Twilight was displaying, would have meant BAD THINGS. He agrees, says the thing that needs to be said, but then he asserts his own feelings.
3. You absolutely pick up on the idea that Twilight sees Jake as 'broken'. Jake doesn't know the meaning of well-adjusted, and the only characters that have been teaching him have been... Celestia and Twilight. They've been working with him, and he trusts them to know what they're doing, and know when he is crossing a line or being unreasonable. Are they right 100% of the time? No! But Jake's in a very weak position as an outsider, and he relies on his relationship with Twilight and Celestia. That means maintaining their good graces, which means that he might be intentionally compromising certain things - such as saying 'sorry', which is a very small battle to concede - in order to keep the peace. He NEEDS them, and he's aware of that. Also, he trusts them when they tell him 'this is how things are supposed to be', because he literally doesn't know. He's lived among shitty people his whole adult life, and he's survived by being flexible, smart, and dangerous. He can't be 'dangerous', here, so he only has the recourse of the other two options.
4. I think you are absolutely off-base when it comes to the idea that Jake does not need to change who he is. Who Jake is, is not who he wishes to be. He was not a good person, and we all know that. There are things that he certainly shouldn't let go of, and you are correct in that assessment, but important things like his anger and his reactions are not what they should be. He reacted to a child lying to him by THREATENING PHYSICAL VIOLENCE AGAINST THAT CHILD. That's NOT normal or acceptable, and the idea that he doesn't need to 'be different' when he's reacting like that to adversity is misguided at best and insane at worst. It'd be one thing to get angry or upset with Spike, but Jake definitely reacted in an irrational manner, and that's not even remotely safe behavior. Jake needs adjusting, and his guide to that... is Celestia and Twilight. Is that a good thing? Maybe not, but we don't really know yet, we only have what I've written thus far to go on.
OKAY, ON TO POST NUMBER TWO AND THREE.
8542837
8542955
I don't understand how you jumped from 'agreeing to say 'sorry' to equating that to becoming a doormat. Jake has regularly broken rules and chosen to beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission from the "pony overlords" as you call them. Dodging his guards, running off to help with the Hydra, etc. Jake doesn't doormat, he just knows when the battle isn't worth fighting. Saying 'sorry' is a really small thing to acquiesce to, especially when the rest of his message throughout the chapter was "I will act to make things right", and expecting that from others as well.
I addressed the rest of this comment above, but Twilight reacts to Spike's reaction to the lack of apology. Spike is uncertain of how to react to Jake's assertion, Twilight spots the discomfort, and she reacts. I'm glad that you think that she's viewing Jake's beliefs as 'counter' to her expectations, because she is, and she obviously doesn't trust Jake to be able to handle this situation properly. Why wouldn't she trust him? Because he'd just a few days prior THREATENED VIOLENCE AGAINST A CHILD. So, again, she's got a pretty good reason to be distrustful. Is it 'good', what she's doing? No, certainly not, but Jake trusts her as one of his two major supporters in Equestria, and he doesn't want to rock the boat too heavily after his actions earlier.
I don't understand why you're thinking that the situation between Jake and Spike in the diner is in any way something that should be a point where Jake stands firm on his beliefs. He THREATENED SPIKE, A CHILD, WITH VIOLENCE, which is highly irrational and unsafe behavior. Jake is aware he fucked up, and he's doing what he is told he needs to do to make things right. That includes Twilight literally saying 'this is the first step to making things right', so he acquiesces. He has no leg to stand on, at all, in this situation. He is working to preserve any sort of relationship he can, and it's pretty obviously not the moment to fight Spikes' sister/maternal figure on a small point like saying sorry. Jake is highly aware of social situations. He needed that to survive. Starting an argument with Twilight was not the way to start fixing things.
Finally, on your edit: Outliers on extreme cases do not make an argument. Those situations also happened over a thousand years ago, and I made a point of stating that the Equestria of 1000 years ago was very different - but modern Equestria is very peaceful, with outlier situations being the exception to the rule. How do they handle the majority of situations? Friendship, compromise, and diplomacy.
8542864
On "Twilight acting like a mother that doesn't want her child to question their world view", I have NO idea how you read that from that situation, but you're incredibly off base. That's such a pessimistic and backwards view of how Twilight reacts that it's barely worth addressing, but you went there, so here we are.
On "Twilight reacts like it is wrong for Jake to think differently and that makes her a bit of an asshole", yes, very correct. She is currently having some trust issues with Jake, considering that he THREATENED A CHILD WITH VIOLENCE. She has reasons to question his world view and judgement. She's being a bit of a jerk by calling him off base, absolutely.
FINALLY
As for Jake being 'emasculated', I have difficulty understanding how deciding to be a cynical, jaded, paranoid person is a 'strong masculine trait' that he needs to cling to. I don't understand how 'not saying sorry ever' is a trait that one should strive to have, and by choosing to apologize AND act as Jake REPEATEDLY STRESSES HE WILL DO, he 'emasculates' himself. You have a funny view of masculinity, and seem to think that Jake's shitty toxic parts where he's being an asshole constitutes the only thing he's ever done that's 'interesting'. I think you're totally off-base, are reading the character wrong, are reading the situations detailed wrong, and are searching for some kind of validation that Jake is 'weak' by giving up things that are REALLY SHITTY THINGS TO CLING TO. The things that he believes at his core are NOT GOOD VALUES TO POSSESS. They are the values of somebody that have lived a life of trauma, abuse, and violence, and they are not even remotely a solid foundation for a functioning human being. Frankly, Jake is a barely functioning member of society and that a lot of what he presents is bravado and bullshit, and there's LOTS OF EVIDENCE in the text to support that because I've been seeding it all over the place, most notably in the chapter where he FREAKS OUT because A CHILD IS LYING TO HIM. He's not even close to a super-rational person when he's feeling threatened, and he is not living in a place where his life-or-death survival skills are always necessary. He's lived among dangerous people so long that he is VERY off base for how he views people.
As for his character development, we're still early in this story. There's a lot to come. Feel free to bear with me if you wish.
8542849
Hey, first time replying to a comment, let's hope this works.
I completely agree with Masalar. This situation is completely shitty from literally all of the angles you view it from. Jake was wounded in perhaps his weakest spot by Rarity's actions. Like a beaten dog he reacted poorly and snapped in the worst possible way at Spike (not to mention spilling over onto the other bearers and Princess Celestia). Then he charged into a situation he was woefully ill-equipped for because his tutors had not told him two very key elements of life in Equestria:
1. There are literal monsters that can destroy a town.
2. There are heroes that handle these monsters on a routine basis.
However, said tutors cannot wholly be blamed for this omission. If the situation was reversed, would grizzly bears, lions, or hippopotami be high on the priority list of education if a pony landed in New York? Maybe, maybe not. The fact is the Equestrians chose to focus on socio-cultural norms before flora and fauna. Fair enough when trying to re-rehabilitate a criminal, let alone a literal alien. The only omission that can be blamed is the one they all recognize: Rarity's lie.
Here's something to remember, ponies and humans are very different. When you fundamentally break it down, humans socially operate best when in groups of about 20 or less. We are social creatures who bond closely with those around us. Ponies (assuming they are anything like Earth's ponies) are herd animals, they operate best in groups of 20+. Trust, forgiveness, and numerous fierce social bonds would be inherent traits for them because that's their survival tactic. If one pony spooks, you all spook because you have to trust there's a predator out there. You have to forgive because breaking the herd-dynamic would be an upsetting event to sapient herd animals with intensely strong bonds, and upsetting those bonds upsets your chances of survival against things like hydras and manticores.
Humans do not trust in the same way. Because of the food sources we eat, and our position in the food chain, we are forced to more heavily compete with other humans for resources. We are innately built to trust a close circle and distrust outsiders, because if an outsider appears on the hill it means they will be eating food from your territory. That means potential starvation for your group and that is obviously bad for your survival.
All of this is to say that there are subtle, but immense, cultural hurdles that need to be explained to a recovering villain. Furthermore, these hurdles have to do with trust and conflict which are both pain-points for Jake.
Ok, so, capitulating to Twilight and apologizing to Spike; perfectly understandable in that moment. Jake is actively trying to make it better for Spike in this scene because he fucked up beyond words and he knows it. Saying "All right... I trust you, Twilight." and then apologizing does not mean he's going to change immediately and act like us Canucks, saying "sorry" every time he almost bumps into someone. It could just as easily mean he's trusting that it will help Spike to hear him say "I'm sorry" in that moment. He's trusting that apologies can have meaning behind them, even if he doesn't fully believe it himself. That's called faith, not being a weak character. He could just as easily go home, mull it over, and decide that he doesn't agree and hash it out with Twilight when he's not in such a bad head-space.
Also, Twilight reinforcing a viewpoint that apologies have meaning is her character. Whether or not you believe she's right is irrelevant, it is within her character for that moment to demand an apology for Spike. Not only is she the literal Princess of Friendship, but she's a hurt mother/sister figure. And if she is indeed in the wrong, if she is indoctrinating Spike, then that's a character flaw of Twilight's. Would you rather she got over all of her flaws presented in the show? I think not, as that would make her a Mary Sue. Plus this 'flaw' paints Equestrian society in an interesting light. If indeed they begin by assuming all apologies are meaningful it shows they are somewhat gullible, and goes a long way to explaining how the Flim Flam brothers operate.
Now, as to the dual ambassador/child treatment of Jake, there is an answer. Remember, Jake was being treated like an ambassador after months of having lived in Equestria and having shown real growth. The gala in Man Cannot Live on Tea Alone (which, for those who missed it, was the short story that predated this story and was where Jake and Rarity met) had a vibe of being his first public showing. Now we know why, Celestia finally believed Jake was ready to face the world. Was he? Again maybe, maybe not. Maybe (shock and horror) Celestia was wrong and he wasn't really ready to face the world. Maybe that's why she was disappointed with his behaviour in Ponyville. She thought the person she had helped had gotten over those demons and insecurities but he had, in fact, not. Maybe Celestia is a tiny bit ashamed of her failure and that's reflecting in her treatment of Jake.
One final thought, I think we are tackling the more interesting part of Jake's progress right now. This is a character who is still broken, but who is on the road to recovery and clearly has a bloody long way to go. And perhaps this comes down to taste, but frankly I don't want to see Jake shatter into a million pieces because can't get over his past. Sorry if it makes me weak, but I like realistic happy endings.
Jake isn't past his best development. What PropMaster skipped (for storytelling purposes, this way he could slowly reveal more of Jake to us) was a really angsty period of constant tears, rage, and beating probably at least two addictions. Frankly, I would like to read about a character who can interact with people in both positive and negative lights as we see them at their best and worst. Someone crawling out of a bottle, and someone trying desperately to not fall back in are both interesting characters.
While there is a spot on the shelf for fiction that deals with such heavy issues and characters that are broken husks of people, that is not the spot this story was meant to fill. This fills an equally valid space that deals with coming out of that period and re-integrating into society. It deals with hope not only for the self, but for the individual's interactions with others.
All this is to say, I eagerly await the next chapter. Thank you, PropMaster, for a great story.
8543391
It's been mentioned that some of the things he had with him have been kept in the palace.
8543463
Welcome to fimfic's comment section! It is a silly place.
And thank you. I kind of just want to replace my analysis of the points SirReal made with your comment. This point, especially.
the author / audience interaction is one of the greatest things about fimfic. i loved the beginning of the sit down, but when jake didn't respond in the negative to twilights brow beating... it lessened the set up from 5a.
the statements to rarity were spot on.
what is it like when the only one you turn to for solace is the source of your issues? i hope i never find out.
8543032
So, he's made decent progress on his road to being a good person. But as seen with Spike, he isn't there yet. I'd also say, again, that I think in his efforts to not be "that guy" he may have erred too far in the other direction. There are aspects of the guy he used to be that aren't bad. And, ideally, he'd find a way to incorporate who he was into who he is becoming. Because right now, he's merely a decent bloke who makes poor decisions it seems the instant anything unusual happens and backs out of a lot of confrontations.
Also, I think your critique has been fair and well written. I think it followed some...much less fair critique. So while you have raised some good points, you had bad luck in terms of timing.
PropMaster, an opinion for you: The chapter is good. But it didn't quite stick the landing. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, and I'm loving the story. And while I also recognize that this would be a hard chapter to write, I think the confusion in the comments demonstrates that yeah, it didn't quite hit the mark. And I have a theory as to why (I could be wrong of course): I think you were too subtle (or maybe just too brief).
Your explanations in the comments make a ton of sense. But I shouldn't NEED to go to the comments to fully understand what happened. For instance, when you explain that Spike wasn't satisfied with Jake's lack of an apology and that Twilight recognized that...I didn't pick up on that. I thought he just found dealing with the guy who basically traumatized him difficult and that Twilight was...well...Twilight. She does have some odd outbursts our lovable purple princess.
You clearly have it all planned out, and you have great explanations for what happened and why. This information just didn't quite always makes its way into the actual story. At least in a way that the audience was able to pick up on it. You wanted to show and not tell, which is fantastic because far too many writers do the exact opposite. I just think a little more telling may have been needed. Or more showing. Or something like that. You get the idea.
So don't be too quick to write off all the comments as people who just "don't get it". Because if so many "don't get it", there may be a legit reason for it.
And to other commenters, remember: This is a fanfic! This is someone dedicating their spare time to writing a story that you're choosing to read. About magical technicolor friendship ponies. Be nice! I don't mean don't critique, but do it because you honestly want to help make the author/story better, not because you expect the author to just do better.
8543419
I've given you plenty of constructive criticism in each of my comments along with the negatives, and judging by this response most of the good I had to say is deliberately ignored simply so you can make a strawman of me. For future reference, author, criticism does not translate to an attack on you or your story.
Many of the points I've made were deliberately twisted or outright rewritten, and you lose my respect as an author for that. Those who read what I actually said before your response will realize how lifeless your wall of text is.
I'll point out a few of these logical fallacies considering this entire castle of yours is built on pillars of sand:
Tell me when I stated anything to the contrary. I said Jake shouldn't completely surrender his identity to the Equestrians because at that moment he is no longer Jake, but the pony ideal on two legs. He made it clear to Spike he wanted to make amends, and that should have been the end of that, but Twilight wasn't satisfied until she heard an apology despite him saying why he thought words were empty in comparison to action.
Quite.
Is that so?
It would appear I'm not the only broken record here.
Alright, give me the stick. The horse is long dead.
It is a metaphor. In that moment, it seemed as though if Twilight were to ask for Jake to lie down on the floor so she could wipe her hooves off on him, he would have obeyed with little protest.
Most likely because it was his second chance to make a good impression. This is the beginning of their relationship, and, as I've said many times before, the chance for two outsiders to learn from one another. Spike would have greatly benefited from making a friend of a non-pony who is confident enough to hold on to his convictions while rebuilding their relationship; it would have shown him the value of nonconformity and strength of character.
Neither does the use of strawmen. But still, the fact that the ponies turn to 1000 year imprisonments and obliteration of their enemies shows that, no, they aren't all that harmonious.
Likely because it doesn't read like your strawman, but instead says "she is reacting like a mother who doesn't want her child to hear something that could make them start asking dangerous questions."
Ooh, another strawman? It's only natural for a lopsided argument like this to conveniently ignore the fact that, in my first comment, I explicitly said I enjoyed the clash between Twilight's and Jake's definitions of forgiveness.
And as for those last two paragraphs? They're a mess. I'm not even touching them since they completely bastardize my original argument with myriad logical fallacies and have nothing to do with what I've been saying.
8543567
Much appreciated. I try my best when giving criticisms because I truly want to see a story succeed.