Spike was furiously pacing in circles before the desk in the navigation room, but he stopped when Thorax entered, shooting a glare at the changeling though the false eyeglasses he wore. “I’m not doing it, Thorax!” he hollered. “You can’t make me!”
“Please sit down, Spike,” Thorax requested in a dark tone as he closed the door behind him and started to march across the room.
Spike didn’t move though, refusing to take the empty chair standing next to the desk. “After everything they’ve done to us, we owe them absolutely nothing! We have no reason—”
“I said please sit down!” Thorax suddenly snapped, whirling on the dragon.
Spike immediately fell silent, taken aback as he couldn’t recall Thorax ever raising his voice against him like this. Stunned, he stared at Thorax for a moment then obediently let himself drop into the chair as requested.
Thorax paced for a moment of tense silence in front of Spike, gathering his thoughts before he continued. Finally, he turned to face Spike, determinedly pointing a holed hoof at him. “I’m not going to let you do this to yourself, Spike,” he stated firmly.
“Oh, no, no, no, no, I am not to blame for any of this!” Spike objected immediately. “It’s all on them Thorax, not us! They should’ve listened to us from the beginning if they didn’t want this mess to happen! Don’t tell me you haven’t figured out that we could’ve prevented all of this if they had just listened and trusted us, because then they would’ve had you as a valuable ally, providing all sorts of important information Equestria could’ve used to prevent this very invasion Chrysalis is trying now, someone who could’ve potentially served to negotiate with the changelings, and above all, they wouldn’t have been distracted trying to search for us and could’ve instead focused on this invasion!”
“This isn’t about any of that though, and you know it!” Thorax objected. “This is about you, and how you are absolutely livid with them for betraying you, and you refuse to forgive them for it!”
“And why should I?” Spike demanded. “They meant the world to me once, Thorax, and how did they repay that? By throwing it in my face and turning their backs on me, then chasing me all over Equestria like some common crook, just because I wasn’t going to let them abuse you for no good reason! You deserve better than that, and frankly, so do I!”
“Maybe so!” Thorax agreed. “But now you’re putting yourself above their safety and well-being because of it!”
“They banished us, Thorax!” Spike argued. “They made it blatantly clear that they don’t want us around, and if that’s what they want, then balani devoveo, that’s what they’re going to get! I will NOT reward them with my loyalty after they pulled all of that on me! Not now!”
Thorax stared at Spike for a moment, briefly surprised at the dragon’s use of a changeling curse, and realized just how much he had rubbed off on his loyal friend. He shook his head, disappointed in himself. “This is my fault then,” he mumbled to himself darkly as he resumed pacing. “I shouldn’t have let this go on for this long…”
Spike snorted. “You aren’t to blame for any of this any more than me!” he pointed. “If anything, you’re more the victim than I am! Equestria is no ally of yours.”
“We have friends in Equestria, though,” Thorax pointed out gravely. “Fly Leaf, Ragg…”
“Yes, all individual ponies who are good ponies to be sure,” Spike agreed. “But they all answer to leaders who are not!”
Thorax watched Spike for a long moment, sensing Spike’s emotions for a moment, almost tasting the raw fury and aching pain for the betrayal he felt he had suffered. “Spike…you just want this as a chance to get back at her for what happened, isn’t it?” he deduced.
Spike scowled. “Her?”
Thorax nodded. “Twilight. This isn’t about Equestria, the changelings, or the bias that exists against me. This is about you being mad at Princess Twilight, because she didn’t give her support to you, and now you’re wanting to do anything you can to hurt her back.”
Spike’s frown deepened, but he didn’t deny it. “Don’t tell me she doesn’t deserve it,” he growled. “After everything she’s done, she’s proven she doesn’t care a shred for me, not truly! The Twilight I had always believed in wouldn’t have let this go so far! But now I know the Twilight I had believed in doesn’t exist…she never did. Twilight showed her true colors to me when she agreed to banish you.”
Thorax averted his gaze. “Twilight isn’t to blame for my banishment.”
“She’s totally to blame! She was the one in position to have tipped the scales if she wanted to, but she didn’t even hesitate to support the banishment, and—”
“I was the one who convinced Twilight to support my banishment.”
This stopped Spike short, who did a double take and stared at Thorax in shock. Thorax, ashamed, averted his gaze further. For a long moment, neither of them spoke, but then Spike finally asked the question. “…but why?”
“Because I was scared,” Thorax admitted, suddenly fighting tears. “Scared for you. You know I didn’t come to Equestria to cause any sort of trouble, but the longer I was staying, the more it seemed I was, and…I didn’t want to let it continue! I wasn’t seeing any hope of a peaceful solution, and I already knew Princess Cadance, Prince Shining, and Princess Twilight were discussing the possibility of banishing me. I knew from her emotions that Twilight had her misgivings about going through with it, but I thought that if I just relented and accepted the banishment and peacefully left, it’d…limit the amount of damage I’d cause…and spare you any further harm. After everything you had done for me up to that point…Informis Una mihi benedicat, I owed you that much.” Thorax started to approach Spike. “So…when you and I had both been thrown into jail cells after your attempt to break me out and Twilight came down to interrogate me…I told her straight up to go ahead and banish me. And…she listened. Obviously.” Thorax averted his gaze. “Neither of us had any idea at the time that you were only going to voluntarily follow me into banishment…nor did I know the others were going to let you go.”
Spike gaped at him for a moment. “You would’ve died if I didn’t, Thorax,” he reminded, tearing up himself.
Thorax nodded. “I know,” he said simply, his voice cracking a little as his emotions caught in his throat. He stopped to take a deep breath to try and regain his composure.
Spike’s gaze turned vacant and wandered off the changeling before him as he processed this revelation. “Why didn’t you tell me?” he finally asked.
“Why do you think, Spike?” Thorax replied. “I was afraid of how you’d react. I did it trying to protect you from harm, but just look at all the grief it ended up bringing you instead!” He shook his head. “I was afraid you’d only come to hate me for doing that, you, the only friend I had at the time…” he sighed, “…but if you should blame anyone for the banishment…you should blame me.”
Spike shook his head slowly and looked back his changeling friend. “I don’t blame you, Thorax,” he said. “How could I? You meant well, and…you were basically willing to die for my sake over that, and that’s…that’s big, Thorax.” He kept shaking his head. “But Twilight and the rest…their actions in all of this were nothing like that. Not even close to selfless like yours were.” His anger gradually started to return. “I am not about to just let that go! I don’t intend to ever let it go!”
“And see, that’s just it!” Thorax said, turning on the dragon again, but instead of anger, his face was etched with grave concern, so much so Spike almost felt it physically washing over him. “I’ve been sitting to one side and watching as this grudge of yours slowly eats you alive ever since we were trudging away from the Crystal Empire as newly made outcasts. I’ve continually been keeping silent about it, giving myself a whole mess of flimsy excuses to avoid bringing it up, that you’d resolve it on your own, that you were justified in your feelings, and so on!” He gazed at the dragon with utter resolve. “But I will do it no more now. You’ve thrown your life away for me and bent over backwards trying to ensure my happiness at the price of your own…so now let me return the favor, because I’m not going to just stand to one side and let you do this to yourself, not after everything we’ve been through and done together.” He reached out a placed one hoof on Spike’s shoulder. “Let it go, Spike. Please. If not for my sake…then for your own. It’s brought you nothing but grief…and it isn’t going to ever bring you anything else.”
Spike gazed sadly back at Thorax, moved by the changeling’s words, but still not swayed. “Even if I could, Thorax,” he stated sadly, placing a set of claws on Thorax’s hoof, rubbing it sadly against the cotton sleeve of the changeling’s jacket, “it’d only leave us open to the full wrath of the grudge they have been sporting against us.”
“Yes, and we ended up banished because the ponies couldn’t stop holding a grudge and couldn’t let themselves “forgive and forget” past grievances with a perceived enemy,” Thorax agreed. He gazed firmly into Spike’s eyes. “But you of all people should know better than to make the same mistakes they did.”
Spike frowned, shaking his head. “What good will it do at this point, Thorax?” he asked. “The damage has already been done. And it’s not going to just go away.”
“Yes it can,” Thorax stressed. “You haven’t stopped to think about the chance we’ve been given with Starlight and Trixie coming to us for help like this. By helping save Equestria, we have a chance to prove where our loyalties lie, to show that ponies like Princess Twilight don’t need to fear me or you, and maybe prove something to my fellow changelings too…and are you really willing to just let it slip by?” Thorax pulled back from Spike a pace, licking his dry lips. “You know it had always been my plan to try and bring change to both the changelings and the ponies, so they can could set aside their differences at last and be friends. I see this as a chance to do that…but it saddens me you’ve already rejected that vision altogether without even trying to obtain it.”
This struck a chord within Spike and he gaped at Thorax, a little offended. “I still believe and share in that vision too, Thorax!” he stated anxiously.
But Thorax sadly shook his head. “You did, once, in the beginning,” he relented, “but you’ve since stop believing in it a long time ago…and I think you and I both have known that for a long time now.” As Spike was still processing this statement, his eyes wide and stunned, Thorax hung his head with a sigh, and decided to draw the line. “Look Spike, it’s not going to matter what you think about all of this. I’m going to go help with this rescue attempt and help stop this invasion, because, as a changeling, I feel I’m morally responsible for the actions of my fellow changelings. And, again, I see it as a chance to prove to everyone that I am a good changeling, providing a better example for the other changelings to see and possibly paving the way for others to follow in my hoofsteps.” He leaned closer to Spike. “And because, above all else, it is the right thing to do.”
Spike gazed into the changeling’s solid blue eyes, feeling his heart ache as this last statement reminded him that he himself had said something similar when defending Thorax just before they became outcasts.
Thorax then straightened, taking on a formal stance as he continued. “And I know that if I go…you’re going to follow me regardless, because you’ve stuck by my side through all of these long four moons without fail. I know you’re not about to stop now; you wouldn’t be able to live with yourself knowing you had abandoned me to go off into danger without you.” He sighed, tilting his head at Spike. “But I don’t want you to follow because of all of that. I want you to follow because you actually want to, and because you know just as well as I that it’s the right thing to do.”
He gazed sadly but expectantly at Spike for a long moment, awaiting some sort of response. But Spike, sad and greatly conflicted, only stared back, at a loss for words. So, suppressing a sigh, Thorax then started to turn for the door.
“Thorax, I’ve been hurt by Twilight too many times before,” Spike abruptly stated sadly, his voice soft while starting to fight tears again as he said it. “I don’t want to set myself up only to be hurt by her yet again. I can’t. I…I still doubt that she wouldn’t do it again, or that she can ever be swayed to trust you or me, Thorax.”
Thorax paused at the door, and this time he didn’t bother to hide his sigh. “Spike, how could you ever expect them to befriend me…” he said, glancing back at the dragon sitting in his chair, “…if you can’t even befriend them?”
Concluding with that remark then, he then pushed open the door and slipped out of the room, closing the door again behind him and leaving Spike alone in the room to quietly ponder the matter to himself. He remained there for a very long time, thinking and debating in his mind all of his options. Tempers ran high, tears were shed, hearts ached, and depression staved off as far as he could during these tense minutes. Finally, he knew he had come to the only conclusion he could, and bracing himself for what he knew it was going to bring, he finally emerged from the back room again, stepping back out onto the Vergilius’s main deck. He found the others sitting or standing just outside the entrance to the craft’s deckhouse, talking amongst themselves. Hovering next to the airship was one of Ember’s escorts, Obsidian, and looked like he had returned to report in, and now they were discussing that report as they began pitching ideas about how to proceed from here. They all stopped and turned to look at Spike though when he approached the little gathering.
He looked sullen and sad, but above all resolute in his choice, raising his chin as he addressed them. “Hey,” he said gently. “Keeping, uh, keeping busy?”
The others glanced about at one another before their gazes all fell back on Spike again. “We were just discussing how we might rescue Twilight and the others from the changelings while also avoiding detection,” Starlight explained simply, but with a note of tension in her voice, fearing how Spike would react to this. She looked like she might say more, but instead trailed off, deciding to let Spike react to that much first.
But Spike simply nodded to himself, fidgeting sheepishly with his claws as he took a deep breath. “Okay,” he said, then with some hesitation, added, “I’m…I’m going to help rescue them too.”
Trixie expressed the most surprise of the group at this, tilting her head at Spike and furrowing her brow. “I thought you didn’t want anything to do with this,” she remarked aloud.
“I don’t,” Spike admitted firmly. His eyes met with Thorax’s waiting gaze. “But…it’s the right thing to do.”
Thorax slowly broke out into a pleased and proud grin at this. Heartened a little by this show of support, Spike sheepishly returned it. But then his gaze turned serious again and he turned to Starlight, pointing a claw at her.
“I have just one condition,” he told the unicorn, his voice stern. “If we actually pull this off, then after it’s all said and done, you MUST have Thorax entirely exonerated of all charges, and leave him and all he chooses to befriend henceforth alone. No more of this stupid chasing and attacking just because he’s a changeling.”
Starlight looked at Spike with a heavy gaze for a long moment, letting out a small sigh through her nose. “Spike, you know I don’t have the kind of authority to guarantee all of that,” she reminded gently. “No matter how much we all might try and support such a thing happening, you know the final choice ultimately isn’t up to me, but rather the princesses. They will always have the last say in the matter, so long as they are ruling.” She paused to let that sink in for a moment, then took a deep breath and turned resolute. “But by golly, I’m still going to do everything in my power try and make sure it happens anyway.”
Spike gazed at her for a long moment, his expression neutral and unclear if he would agree to that. But finally, he nodded. “All right,” he said, satisfied enough. “That’ll have to do for now.” He jabbed his claw at Starlight one final time. “But I will be holding you to that.”
Starlight nodded, grinning a little. “I don’t doubt that, Spike.”
Spike kept nodding too, not sharing in the grin. “Okay then,” he said, then turned and gazed at the others for a second. He finally shrugged. “Guess I’m in. I’m putting my life on the line for it, and I’m not entirely happy about that, but I’m in.
Ember made a small grin. “Well, there is a fitting dragon saying for this anyway,” she remarked. “You only live once.”
Trixie then immediately clapped her hooves together. “You heard the dragoness!” she declared with definiteness. “I guess we’re doing this!”
“But first, we still need to sort out the matter of those who are tailing us,” Ember interjected quickly, getting them back on the topic they were about to discuss when Spike turned up.
Spike groaned as he immediately caught on. “Oh, don’t tell me…”
Starlight nodded with a wince, and pointed a hoof at Obsidian. “Him and his partner found the trail of two others who have clearly been trailing behind me and Trixie for a while now,” she explained.
“That’s correct,” Obsidian confirmed in the rumbling voice typical of an adult dragon. “Their scent trail was fresh and heading in this same direction. Going by scent alone, they seemed enough like ponies…”
“…but it’s pretty clear to me that they’re changelings, trying to follow Starlight and Trixie,” Thorax finished with a sigh. “Garnet’s out covering the Vergilius’s rear in case they try something for now, but eventually they’re probably going to catch up with us and figure out their targets have hitched a ride, so we were trying to figure out what, if anything, we can do about it.”
“I still say we just outrun them,” Trixie remarked eagerly. “I have no interest in trying to fight them off directly.”
Spike sighed, remembering his promise to assist and bit back his complaints to try and look at the matter positively. “Well, fighting them actually might not be so bad,” he reasoned aloud. “If there’s really only two, we do outnumber them.”
“That doesn’t necessarily guarantee anything though,” Ember pointed out. “I mean, they did just send one changeling to attack us back in the Dragon Realms, and even though he didn’t succeed, he did put up a good fight, so I’d say he still stood a good chance.”
Thorax, however, suddenly perked up. “Wait a minute,” he said and turned to Obsidian. “You said you and Garnet didn’t actually see the pursuers, you just found their scent trail, right?”
“Right,” Obsidian confirmed, nodding his giant head.
“So they probably didn’t see you either, to the best of your knowledge, correct?”
“Right again…unless they observed us in secret, without our knowing.”
Thorax grinned a little. “Then, if we can just get you and Garnet out of sight for a little while, I think I might have an idea to ditch them.” He looked at the others though and his grin turned into a sympathetic wince. “But you all probably aren’t going to like it.”
8402365
And that's what pisses me off; Twilight refuses to believe any Changeling could be good, and refuses to consider otherwise. She's like a child, really...
...holy shit, Spike's a whiny, narrow-minded little brat. For Chrissakes, Spike, do what Thorax suggested, forgive them and let go of your grudge, unless you're too weak to do so...
Hmm, a good few downvotes. I suppose you ladies and gents aren't familiar with the concept of "water under the bridge"?
Wow. If there's one chapter that fully demonstrates that the friendship and relationship that's developed throughout this story between Spike and Thorax, its this chapter. It truly shows that Thorax fully understands Spike, and Spike knows him too. (Though his bitter outlook does make it harder for him)
I really liked this. This truly shows you how these two characters have changed and improved. Well done author, well done.
8402403
In regards to the bitter outlook...geeze, Spike, get over yourself.
I hope Twilight gets slapped at the end of this, would make my day!
Good job as usual, hope that the new episode coming out tomorrow/today (depending on timezones) doesn't ruin this headcanon.
8402409
Well, I can almost guarantee Spike won't be a whiny, bitter little bitch in canon...
I really don't think letting go of the grudge is a good thing to do. If thay want to be hypocrites about their friendship and harmony, let them go ahead and lose their friends over their hatred. I'm not saying he shouldn't try and save them, because you should always try to do the right thing, including forgiving them. Trust however? No way in hell. Being sorry for being wrong doesn't cut it, because they'll just do it again. Only when they regret the actual act of wrongdoing themselves can trust be reestablished.
8402426
Why not? Holding onto grudges is never a good thing, and just eats away at you from the inside. Besides, everyone kinda ditched Twilight, and Celestia and Luna support him...which I hope he can believe. Provided, of course, he's able to stop being a bitter, whiny brat...
Oh, wait, I just saw your thing about how forgiving them is part of doing the right thing. Still, if you're not willing to trust, then you're weak. I mean, Spike's reasoning for not doing so is basically "Oh, boo hoo, my feelings are hurt and I'm afraid they'll be hurt again"....
Well handled by Thorax.
And as much as Twilight's hurt Spike, he also needs to consider how much he's hurt her...
8402438
Pfft, don't bother; he's too much of a selfish brat to think about that. "Oh, wah, my feelings are hurt!"
8402409
That isn't going to be enough. I would suggest a Scar on her face and everytime she looks into a Mirror, it'll constantly remind her that it was her own fault that she pushed Spike away and refusing to give Thorax a Chance.
8402460
Or better yet, Spike doing THIS to her...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-gkvrkvH_Q
Be better than them. And when they succeed and Spike has the support of Luna and Celestia, would Twilight even try? What about Cadance and Shining? Where's Discord?
8402466
My fear is that he'll be too much of a bitter brat to understand that Celestia and Luna support him. Seriously, bitter people piss me off; they refuse to believe in good things...
8402471
All right we get it. You think Spike is a whiny little brat. You don't need to keep saying it over and over.
In my opinion Spike has every right to be angry. He was betrayed by people he dearly loves and that is never easy to get over even when you want to. Especially when you are afraid that they are never going to change and will simply keep on hurting you.
8402495
Well, then, he's weak.
8402498
That is not weakness, it's human. Besides, it's only smart to forgive up to a point. A person who just keeps forgiving an abuser and going back to them isn't strong, they're weak, and people have literally died that way.
Hate begets hate. In the end, you can let it bottle up, you can vent it, both should be done.
So long as its out, its said, and its able to be left behind, you can heal. Be true to who you are, and you will find friends, and you will find enemies. Ultimately, who you are wins out, if hate, and grief do not.
Rather than devolving into the same tired sides, as folks have here previously, step forward, and make the choice to disagree, but move forward. Is it really worth getting into the same crud? Not really. Its baggage, and bad baggage at that.
It was a good update, and nice to see a call back here. And starlight as well for doing what she is in her power to. How much they do from here, shall be interesting.
8402503
Yes sorry, going to step back and take a deep breath. I just know from experience that no, it's not a good idea just to always forgive everyone everything and go on like nothing happened. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Rename this story "Thorax the Emotionally Manipulative Cunt Ignores the Valid Misgivings of His Only Friend and Drags Him Into Some Asinine Situation Wherein He Has To Work Alongside Starlight Sparkle: Worst Pony"
8402500
I understand that much, but doesn't it take strength to forgive? Therefore, if you're unwilling to forgive, you're lacking strength, and are therefore weak.
To the people that are saying that Spike is acting like a whiny, little brat and not wanting to get his “feelings” hurt again? Don’t you think that you’re...taking his emotions down to the their most mundane, watered down level?
Spike loved Equestria: so much so, that he saved it from going to war with Sombra by saving the Crystal Empire and from god-knows-what at the hand of Garble by preventing him from becoming the Dragon lord. He’s done so much for Equestria and for them to repay him like this? Do you honestly expect him not to be bitter, resentful and harbor a grudge of massive proportions? Yes, he should save them for the greater good of the world around them, but I think Thorax is wrong in saying that Spike should just “forgive” them because it’s the “right thing to do”. He’s earned the right to hate them for what they’ve done to both him and Thorax; after how much he loved them, loved Twilight, what gives anyone the right to say he should just “suck it up and deal for the greater good?”
Holding a grudge isn’t healthy nor will it ever be. However, that doesn’t mean Spike shouldn’t have one because that’s not how emotions work. It will be a process for Spike to let go of his grudge and everyone else needs to realize that instead of jumping down his throat to “let it go”. And forgiveness? Like someone pointed out, their hypocrisy cost them Spike’s trust and any hope for things to be same ever again. He stayed true to the very principles they all but shove in other’s faces, even in the face of extreme prejudice and being treated like a criminal by them. If he ever forgives them, it will be a long, long, arduous journey and that’s a pretty big if regardless. Spike doesn’t owe them anything.
It’s really unfair for some of you to say “Oh, he’s just being a brat!” or “Oh, he just doesn’t want his feelings hurt anymore, wah, wah, wah!” without taking into account just how much Spike has gone through at the hooves of the ponies that he loved and are now expecting him to jump into the fray for their sakes.
8402398
8402407
8402438
You endure getting kicked out of your home and getting chased all across the land non-stop just because your so-called friend didn't support you and believed your new friend is nothing more than a monster, then get back to me about being bitter.
I'm not saying Spike shouldn't try to help them, but his trust is something they are going to have to earn back, because this entire ordeal could have been avoided if they had just listened to him.
Huh...I don't know. It's been creeping up on me the last few chapters, but I'm not sure if I can properly enjoy this story.
The whole story is based around this idea that Twilight and others had at the beginning that all changelings are inherently evil, which is out of character without any real justification that I can see. The cutie map makes it clear the story's aware of this on some level once it stops sending Twilight on missions. Yes, this is a "what if" story, but the only way this happened was characters being out of character. I mentioned how I thought Twilight had been replaced by Chrysalis, and the reason I was so convinced of this was because that was, as I saw it, one of the only ways this was plausible (though I now know I was wrong).
And there's other out-of-character moments, like Starlight talking to Twilight a few chapters ago (Degree of Trust). Starlight talks calmly to Twilight and thinks things through, in direct opposition to her established character trait of impulsiveness. And that, in my opinion, pales in comparison to Twilight having taken Starlight as a student mostly to ensure she doesn't go off track, as it were, where in the show, it's clear the answer was friendship. Twilight offered friendship, nothing less.
Then there's the writing style. In the beginning of most chapters, there's an extremely telly expository dump that feels like an essay with the lack of show. Especially when comparing it to the rest of the chapters' contents, it throws me right out of the story.
Look, you all can like or dislike the story or my comment all you want; I personally don't care. There are some bits I like (such as Fly Leaf's character), but unfortunately, they do not save the story for me. I'm not going to leave a downvote, but I'm sorry; I can no longer continue.
8402510
Quick question, did Katara from Avatar forgive the man who killed her mother?
Was she weak?
well thorax's logic is sound going to point out, letting go and forgiving arn't the same thing and in most cases, something like what equestrias done to spike is alot harder to forgive then let go. if spike actualy forgives anyone directly after they rescue them... it's more a sign of mental unhealth then a healthy way to deal with things. something on this scale should take years to forgive.
8402510
it takes strength to let go, it takes alot more then strength to forgive, and it's mentaly unhealthy for anyone to forgive on this scale with ease.
8402471
they automaticaly believed everything that twilight said without double checking the facts, that alone justifies his uncertainty regarding them.
8402505
I wasn't calling out anyone, heck, in the worst of irony.... I was in spikes spot earlier today, just bottling the anger. Sorry if it felt that way, wasn't my intention, just seeing folks sorta going on the divisive nature of this with spike, and rather than letting things bog down. I said my peace to the one fellow, and felt so much the better for it.
Well, i was hoping folks would enjoy the story, and that thorax, was taking charge, but still compromising to be understanding. Just let bygones be bygones, dont forget, but eh, its water under the bridge really. It flows downstream, and is outta mind pretty quickly.
I am fairly certain it was your intention to have wrote spikes character like this, but it still pisses me off a good deal. That being spike is being a giant hypocrite. If you don't know what I mean by that, its spike being angry(Kinda like a angyst teen, no offense.) about them judging thorax based on what the rest of his race has done and not his character. Then he is now doing that himself by willing saying that all ponies can suffer under the changelings because four ponies wronged him and thorax.
I just really hate hypocrites like that, condemning something then proceeding to practice themselves.
And yes, while I get that spike has the right to be angry and that he shouldn't just forgive those that caused their situation in the first place, he should also know that not ALL ponies feel the same way as two biased, one kinda biased, and one sorta weak willed ponies do. To be honest, from the get go it seemed like spike became vendettic and that he let it(sometimes almost seeming WILLING it) to grow larger to the point where he seems uncaring to the fact that hundreds or thousands of innocent ponies could get hurt or even die. Maybe it's his dragon heritage, or maybe its him himself.
Again, not saying he should forgive those that are RESPONSIBLE for it right away just like that, but he should(God I have used that way too many times already.) try and work towards that goal if nothing else.
Edit: Yikes, seems people either don't like what I said, or that they read the first sentences and then downvoted, let me clarify, I don't hate spike, nor do I think he has no right to be mad, he should be. BUT my point still stands.
8402629
Spike has an excuse, he TRIED to get everyone to see reason. Their response? Ignore his claims, banish him, then hunt him and his friend down like wild animals without so much as trying to see things from his POV.
And before you say anything about the changeling invasion being the reason why, let me remind you that Thorax came to them at the very least trying to take the peaceful route, and even after Spike, who is responsible for helping save the Crystal Empire at least twice, vouched for him they still turned on him.
As I said before, Spike has every right to be pissed at them. He should still save them, but they are the ones who not only owe him and Thorax a huge apology, and they need to EARN his trust back.
If I remember correctly Shining Armor did said there was no such thing as a good changeling. So the way the ponies are acting I think is in character. I mean the Crystal Empire have more to fear from unicorns like King Sombra than from changeling they never met.
For the way Spike is acting I compare it to Rambo. Here you have a Veitnam veteran trying meet with his patoon buddies and the sheriff whose fought in the Korean war start harassing Rambo and for what, just because he didn't want Rambo to dirty up his town. They kept pushing Rambo into a corner until he start fighting back. All they have to do was just let Rambo walk through their town and he would've left ending the story.
8402641
Oh wow that was quick, I did edit my thing, probably before you wrote that, but anyways. Bigger thing, wat?
I never said he didn't have a reason/excuse? I just said that he is being a hypocrite. Which he is. Yeah he was every reason to be mad at shining, cadance and twilight, but the ENTIRE rest of the Equestrian population that is going to suffer under changeling rule didn't do anything to draw his ire, yet he condemns them anyway based on a few, just like what happened in the empire with thorax.
8402647
I'm not saying he's not being a hypocrite, hell I pointed that out in the previous chapter. I'm saying Spike has more of a reason/excuse to act that way and it's a lot more understandable from his point of view.
8402650
Fair enough.
So in this episode of my little pony the common sense switch is set to Spike.
I kinda ignored it, because to be fair, it's a bad plot twist. As Thorax states here:
It implies that this entire story wouldn't have happened without Thorax urging Twilight to agree with the banishment, and that she might not have agreed with it. That she would have made the right choice in the end like she did in canon. So Thorax is taking responsibility for the wrong choice, and partly everything that followed since then is his fault.
Yes, the ponies involved are responsible for their own actions following that, but taking the point of view that it would have been canonical in the very beginning save for Thorax's actions basically makes the claim that Twilight Sparkle could have acted this way in canon were the conditions right, that Celestia and Luna would have immediately supported such a thing, and so on. That, I cannot possibly agree with.
This story has been characters acting OOC all over the place to varying degrees, and furthermore revealed how hollow Twilight Sparkle's character was concerning her explanation for why she befriends her enemies. And holding the position of Princess of Friendship: It would be like Fluttershy faking her affinity for animals, or Pinkie Pie just going through the motions of throwing a party. or Rainbow Dash racing because she had to, not because she loved the idea of going fast.
Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the moral ambiguity of Thorax doing this brings up, but in the end I feel it just weakens the entire scenario. Spike immediately forgiving Thorax for it doesn't help either. It's a get-out-of-jail-free card that has just been played to sway Spike from his dark path, when it feels like the actions of ponies themselves should have done so in the story thus far, with the seeming majority of them being friendly and helpful so far.
Spike was supposed to be the innocent one, the morally superior one, and yet this story drags him down such that as this moment, he was little better than Twilight Sparkle. Thorax was completely right in pointing out that Spike hasn't believed in the dream of friendship between changelings and ponies in a long time. It's difficult for me to look at how Spike has acted throughout the more negative aspects of this story and say "yep, he is the one who stuck with his morals" with how bitter he has become. That really weakens the story's appeal to me, overall. That his good nature has been twisted to become a kind of prideful badge of honor and nothing more. That he is just as fallible as the others in reality were the circumstances tweaked just a bit.
In short, that the solution to the conflict in this story is to drag Spike's character through the mud.
8402550
I find it funny when people say how a character is acting is OOC when the show's writers do that regularly and we just gloss over and ignore it. Given certain situations it always possible for multiple decisions and the further one goes with a possible decision that wasn't made the more it will seem OOC though if you look at how the situation grew it's actually in character because of the change of events. Everyone saying how Spike, Twilight, or any of the other characters are acting OOC is ignoring other traits they have shown throughout the tv series and events that would support how they currently act. Your other concerns are understandable as that's moreso an issue of preferences.
8402642
Considering they're being invaded by Changelings right now... that statement is untrue.
8402650
Only in so far as that he saw Twilight do it first. This actually shows quite well that Spike is doing exactly what Twilight did, to a remarkable degree.
Hear me out on this:
Spike was willing to throw his friendship with Thorax away over a grudge; a grudge that would lead him to deny helping innocents (Fly, Fluttershy etc), who would then likely be enslaved or killed. Said grudge comes from a personal feeling of having been wronged by the leader of a race (Twilight) and projecting these feelings onto all members.
Now, let's switch a few names around.
Twilight was willing to throw her friendship with Spike away over a grudge; a grudge that would lead her to deny helping innocents (Thorax), who would then likely end up enslaved (by his queen) or killed. Said grudge comes from a personal feeling of having been wronged by the leader of a race (Chrysalis) and projecting these feelings onto all members.
Again, Spike didn't start it, that's a point in his corner. On the other hand, Twilight had no real reason to trust Thorax since he was part of the invasion force in Canterlot (making the 'innocent' part debatable) and Spike in turn had more than ample time to see how well-meaning Fluttershy and Fly have been towards them, showing him what kind of ponies he truly intends to sacrifice for his wounded ego.
Incidentally, I'm curious how many downvotes I'll get for this post. There is a large part of the fandom for whom Spike is a sacred cow.
8402744
The problem is that his ego had nothing to do with it. It was his trust in them that was shattered. He willingly put his trust in there who's that they would at the very least give him the benefit of the doubt, but they didn't. They exiled him.
Even if you use the "he was part of their invading force" excuse, that's still a bit of a stretch considering the fact that he willingly surrendered, and was willing to leave if it meant no trouble for Spike, however Twilight wouldn't even give him that and immediately continuously hunted him down despite the fact that she was the one who sent Spike away.
And let's not forget the Eensy Teensy little fact you've avoided: TWILIGHT WAS READY TO START A WAR WITH THE DRAGONS OVER HER PREJUDICE.
And that's not even getting into her abuse of authority throughout the more recent chapters....
Is Spike in the wrong for not wanting to help them? Yes, absolutely.
But Twilight and a few others are even more in the wrong for starting this entire spectacle.
8402471
Dark, I don't know what happy world you live in, I would love to be there. But people, especially most versions of dragons, are not so easy to forgive people that betray their trust. And the more closer the friend is, the deeper the grudge and hate when they do betray them.
A stranger stealing something from you? He's just a thief and to be expected. Someone you hang out with only once a month? Still to be expected and they are just a thief. Your friend steals from you? You drop all contact and never talk to them again because they hurt and betrayed you. Your FAMILY steals from you? 9 out of 10 times that family member's life is fucked from that point on as you ruin everything about them and NEVER forgive them.
Of course I am using 'Stealing' as a stand in. People I don't know steal from me once in a while and I just shrug it off and don't think too much about it beyond reporting it to the police. My cousin borrowed 2 PS1 games I loved to play back over 15 years ago, and ended up giving both away to a friend to keep and never returned them to me, aka he stole them from me. Since this, in all these years, I have NEVER given him anything, never hanged out with him again, and go out of my way to avoid him, and belittle and mentally abuse the little shit every time I'm forced to be in the same room as him.
Everyone is different, but some people don't forgive people for breaking their trust, especially those they concider close friends and family, cause the pain runs deep, and there is no reason to forgive them.
Honestly spike should save them, because it is the right thing to do, and try to friend other ponies, but he should NEVER trust Twilight, Celestia, Luna, Cadence, Shining Armor, or any of Twilight's Friends except Fluttershy ever again, and never speak or see any of them ever again after what they all put him through. Because while Twilight was the one actively going after him, the others are still at fault for never trying to learn the truth, or trusting his judgement. Even Starlight trusted Twilight over Spike, even tho she had issues and knew what Twilight was doing was wrong.
8402795
But in the end, the author will go with what his vision entails, whether you like it or not.
8402498
NO, he is not weak for reusing to forgive family for that level of betrayal and I would really be more worried for him if he had.
8402752
Of course it's his ego what's keeping him back. Did Fly banish him? Did Fluttershy? No, they did not. Yet he doesn't want to help them as that would entail helping those who he feels wronged by. Ego has everything to do with it.
What do you think got hurt by their rejection and "betrayal"?
Spike was even willing to abandon Thorax if he had to choose between staying with him or wallowing in his grudge.
8402872
There's a big difference between an ego and an emotional grudge, if it was about his ego then he would be more concerned about claiming that he was better than them or something.
This is about the emotional scars they left on him, mainly because they banished him and never once tried to think of a more peaceful route, not to mention they basically hunted him and his friend down like they were criminals, in his mind he mattered that little to the ones he once called his friends.
While Spike should know that not everyone should suffer for one person's mistakes, you need to remember that Twilight has done far worse than Spike Ever Could by the point of this chapter. Spike has every right to be pissed, he just shouldn't take it out on the innocent ones.
It's not his ego, if the fact that his own family basically threw him out.
8402795
Twilight, Shining Armor, and Cadence I understand, the Royal Sisters might get more of a pass because they're actually trying to clear the air as of recent chapters, Starlight might need to go a through a few more steps before Spike forgives her, however the rest of the Mane 6 weren't even there, and only had Twilight's word to go on, not to mention the fact that once they got the full story they quickly change their opinion, especially after seeing how badly Twilight was handling things, so they should be at the very least given a chance to show Spike which side they pecked before he gets judgemental with them.
I wonder how far mentally destroyed Twlight is in the end. She destroyed her friendship with her first friend and sort-of-little-brother Spike. She alienated herself from her other friends. She missed her change to learn more about changelings, and so she sabotaged the opportunity to prevent the second "invasion" to happen (she cannot know that the invasion would have happened anyway). The map/tree of harmony isn't responding to her anymore. She completely and spectaculary failed as a "princess of friendship". I'm curious how much of "Twilight" is left in the end.
8402880
You are describing exactly why his ego was wounded in the first place. How are you not seeing that?
Moreover, Thorax is agreeing with it. But I guess he doesn't know anything, so screw that.
8402895
That's the thing though, when he came to everyone with the hopes that they would at least give the benefit of the doubt, there wasn't any hint of ego there. Just a desperate plea to be heard out, a plea that they ignored and responded with scorn banishment and eventually hunting him down like an animal.
It's like in Jak 3 where Haven City through Jak and Daxter out after they just helped kill the metal head leader, it wasn't about Jak's ego that made him not want to come back, it was the fact that the city he works so hard to defend basically spat in his face and threw him out to die, and he believes that even if he did come back and save them again they'd just throw him out again.
This situation is the same here with Spike, he couldn't care less about saying "I was right you were wrong", he refuses to come back because keep you all that even if they did save them they'd just toss them out again.
Ego is different from trust, an ego is built on confidence and can easily be rebuilt, trust is not so easily built up and his friends completely shattered that trust when they threw him out.