7 – Making Promises
Chapter Seven
Making Promises
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Everything was different. Once Sunset opened up to Crystal Clear she noticed an immediate change in how she felt. She didn’t have nightmares anymore, her mood swings had largely stopped, even her outlook on dealing with other kids was better. Suddenly, everything fell into place. All the stupid things she had to deal with were all temporary, just unimportant things she would handle one day at a time.
Talking with Crystal Clear became something to look forward to every week. It wasn’t just that it was liberating to finally talk about Equestria after so long away, either. That was definitely part of her excitement, but even more importantly he had said that he could help her find her way home. She had no doubt he had his own reasons, but that wasn’t a problem. Naturally, he would want to see this other world with its magic, and even if he wanted monetary compensation that should prove simple enough. Sure, bits wouldn’t help him much, but Princess Celestia could easily arrange a reward of gold or valuable gems.
The thought broke through her good mood. Sunset had been feeling cheerful as always while she waited for Rose Petal to take her to her weekly appointment, but as always found mixed feelings rushing back to her at the memory of her former mentor. What would she do if Sunset returned?
‘When,’ Sunset reminded herself. What would Celestia do when she returned, not if. Because she was returning to Equestria, even if it was going to take years.
There was no way to know what Celestia would do. She had always been patient and forgiving in the past, but she had also dismissed Sunset from her tutelage. Would an apology still be enough?
There was no way of knowing, so she was better off not thinking about it. Before that could even be a concern, Sunset would have to find her way home.
“Alright, let’s get going,” Rose Petal said, snapping Sunset from her thoughts. She was smiling happily, the way she did before the past few appointments with Crystal Clear. Everyone was happy with Sunset’s change in attitude, but none more so than Rose Petal.
“Okay.” Sunset followed Rose Petal out to her van. It had been over a month since Sunset had found herself living with humans, and finally she seemed to be getting used to their world. For example, she could now tell that the little old lady looked out of place behind the wheel of such a large vehicle. But of course, she was one of the primary caretakers of twenty-seven children and needed something large enough to transport as many of them as she could.
“So who’s it going to be today?” Rose asked once she started the engine.
“Today’s definitely an Arpeggio Harmony kind of day,” Sunset answered.
“Good choice, as always.” Rose Petal pulled the cassette tape out from between their seats and put it into the van’s tape deck. The sound of the string section opening the song filled the van, with the more dominant piano coming in shortly after.
Sunset and Rose shared a love for classical music, much to their mutual surprise. Rose was amazed to find a child who was interested in anything but pop music, while Sunset never mentioned that it was hardly something she’d consider ‘classic’ since it was still a very dominant music genre in Equestria. In particular, Arpeggio Harmony instantly became one of Sunset’s favorites. She recognized the name as a long dead Equestrian composer, although she had only read about him and wasn’t actually familiar with any of his music. Still, the coincidence in the name was very amusing, and she liked to imagine it was some sort of bizarre connection between the two worlds.
Well, she might not have been familiar with the Arpeggio Harmony who had lived in Equestria, but she was becoming very familiar with the one who lived on Earth. Sunset hummed along once the horn section came in, while Rose accompanied her by mimicking the strings. They were off key and would have ruined the music for anyone else listening in, but they were both smiling at each other.
The short ride was made shorter by being filled with music. If they had been going anywhere else, Sunset would have been disappointed at the fact that they only got to hear fifteen minutes of the tape, but in light of meeting with Crystal Clear she was far less concerned with the music.
Rose Petal walked with Sunset into the building. They stopped in the front room, where a receptionist checked them in before they parted ways. Sunset continued farther into the building with the receptionist to meet with Crystal, while Rose waved goodbye before heading back to New Horizons.
Crystal Clear’s door was open, his sign that he wasn’t with anyone else. “Dr. Clear, Sunset Shimmer is here for her appointment,” the receptionist said.
He looked up from his paperwork and smiled. “Hello, Sunset. Come on in.” He closed the folder he was looking over and set it off to the side. As Sunset entered the room the receptionist closed the door behind her. “How are you doing today?”
“Good,” Sunset said, taking her seat. “Have you figured out anything about where the portal is yet?”
“No,” he said, causing her to frown. “But be patient, it might take some time.”
That was the same thing he had said last week. Sunset didn’t know why it was so hard for him to get access to her records, assuming he didn’t have them on hand already. The police would have documented where she was found, and then it would be a simple matter of the two of them going there together to see if she could recognize where the portal had let her out.
Sunset pushed those doubts away. Crystal Clear was the only person who could understand her, the only person who would possibly help her get home. “Okay. You’ll let me know, though. Right?”
“Of course I will,” he said with an easy smile. “I have to say, I’m happy to keep hearing good things about you.”
“Yeah, well, turns out it’s not so hard to go along with what people want.” ‘Now that I have an actual reason to,’ Sunset finished in her head. She wouldn’t accentuate that point. He was smart enough to realize that there was only one reason Sunset was behaving herself without the reminder, anyway.
“I’m sure you’re finding things a good deal easier, as well,” he said knowingly.
“Yeah, you could say that. It’s nice not being lectured every other day, at least.”
Crystal chuckled. “That does have some amount of appeal, yes.”
“Okay, so, I was wondering –” Sunset smiled excitedly at the prospect of something that might make her time on Earth significantly better “– now that you know what’s going on with me, could you maybe get them to take me out of kindergarten? I’ll still go through the homeschooling classes and everything, so it shouldn’t be a problem as far as the state’s concerned.”
Crystal hesitated a moment. “Well, you have made a lot of improvement, and no one could doubt that you far exceed the curriculum,” he said with an overly soft tone.
Sunset sighed. “But?”
“But it’s only been a few weeks. While I’m very impressed with everything that I’ve heard and seen, I can’t make that recommendation yet.”
“But you know I’m not supposed to be in kindergarten!” Sunset hated the way her voice sounded. She could hear the plea in it. She was asking for reassurance. Tell me again that you believe me.
“It’s not even my call, I’m sorry to say. By this point, all I could do is give my professional opinion.”
“Well, that has to count for something! Hell, I’d be happy if they moved me up a few grades!”
He seemed to consider his options for a moment. Sunset couldn’t help but feel like it was just for show, but she waited patiently all the same. “How about this: Finish kindergarten without any more problems, and I’ll do everything I can to get another placement test for you. Where you wind up from there isn’t my call, but I can pretty much guarantee it’ll be higher than first grade.”
It was probably the best she could hope for, but it wasn’t enough. “The school year only started a few months ago, though! Come on, you have to be able to do something. I don’t want to spend half my time in this world with a bunch of kids.”
“Maybe I can make something happen sooner. I’m not promising anything, but I’ll see what I can do.”
‘Just like you’ll see what you can do about finding the portal,’ Sunset thought bitterly. But she couldn’t do anything that would risk burning her only bridge, so all she said was, “Thank you.”
Content to put that matter aside, Crystal Clear nodded. “You’re welcome. So is there anything else you’d like to talk about? Anything new happen in the past week?”
“No, not really.” Even with the news of Equestria, Crystal Clear always kept a large focus on her day to day experiences. She wasn’t sure how he could still be interested in that, but guessed that it was just part of his job. All the same, she knew he would be interested in learning more about Equestria if she brought it up. “Oh! I don’t think I told you about Equestrian weather yet!”
Sunset grinned excitedly as she told him about how ponies controlled the weather in all major cities, happily answering any of his questions. While he was never the one to bring up Equestria, his interest was easy enough to see. He had questions about everything and was particularly interested in the details of how everything actually worked. Sunset suspected it was because of the same inquisitive nature that led him becoming a psychologist.
Fortunately, he was talking to one of the only ponies who understood why things in Equestria worked. Most ponies were content to just accept magic was behind everything, but Sunset understood the principles behind the magic itself. She struggled a bit with some questions, which was made doubly frustrating by the facts that she was sure she’d known those answers before and that Crystal Clear made little notes with each failure. ‘He’s just noting what to look into once we get through the portal,’ Sunset told herself. She didn’t like the other option she’d thought of.
The session was similar to the past few. Sunset talked about Equestria and felt a growing sense of concern mixed into her relief. Still, it was largely positive, and she was feeling pretty good about things as their conversation went on. Almost good enough that she was tempted to ignore a surprise chance when it presented itself. Almost.
Towards the end of their session, Crystal’s secretary knocked on his door to tell him he had a phone call. He normally wouldn’t have taken it, but with their increasingly familiar relationship, Sunset was able to convince him she really didn’t mind waiting easily enough. When he left the room, Sunset walked around to the other side of his desk.
Moving any of his notes would be too risky, so she just looked at what he had been writing. Sure enough, it consisted of the things Sunset hadn’t been able to answer. She had known that, but alongside it was written ‘press further’.
If it had been ‘find out more’ or ‘learn more later’ or even nothing at all, Sunset wouldn’t have thought anything of it. But why would he press further when she already had told him she didn’t know those things? She had a feeling but would need more evidence.
And she knew exactly where to look: her case file. Unfortunately, the one he’d been reviewing earlier had been someone else’s. But next to it was a small key – just big enough for a filing cabinet. She shoved it in her pocket and returned to her seat.
Crystal Clear returned, apologized, and took his seat. Sunset didn’t want to look suspicious, so she began with small talk.
“Everything okay?” Sunset asked. She kept her tone half-joking. He’d never believe she was genuinely concerned.
“Yes, it wasn’t anything urgent. My son asking if he could go out with some friends tonight.”
Sunset continued to craft the perfect amount of interest. Only a little, so he would keep talking, taking care to make sure it was not so much that he’d realize she was just stalling for time. “I didn’t know you had a son.”
“Yes, he’s fourteen. Good kid.”
“You don’t wear a wedding ring.” Friendly or not, she couldn’t pass the chance to make him squirm a little.
Crystal didn’t seem to mind. “Divorced,” he said with a smile. He held up his left hand, showing a barely visable tan line around his ring finger. It was hardly noticeable, so it must have been years ago.
Although Sunset was tempted to dig a little deeper, she was wary of how far was too far. Plus she had places to be. “A keeper like you? No way.” She stood up before he could reply. “Anyway, I’ll be right back. Bathroom.”
Crystal nodded. “Okay, it’s down the hall –”
“To the left, I know.” Sunset had taken care to learn the layout of the building, as well as any other she frequently went to. Not just what rooms went where, but who went to which ones. She hadn’t snuck into the restricted section of the Royal Canterlot Archives by chance, after all.
So Sunset walked out of the room and down the hall. She reached a turning point where the bathroom was to the left, and she went straight instead. With Crystal in his office and the receptionist at the front, the odds that anyone was in the records room were low. And if someone was in there? Then she was just a little girl who was looking for the bathroom.
She opened the door with confidence, as if she was supposed to be there, and found it empty. There was no time to lose, so she immediately set to work. Thankfully, most of the work was done for her. ‘Dr. Crystal Clear’ was labeled at the top of one of the filing cabinets, and the second drawer from the bottom was labeled ‘M–S’. Thankful that whether she was under ‘Sunset’ or ‘Shimmer’ she was sure to be in that cabinet, Sunset inserted the key, turned it, and was hardly surprised when it opened for her. Crystal never struck her as someone who was terribly concerned with security.
She leafed through the files as quickly as possible, finding her own soon enough. It was surprisingly thick, considering they hadn’t had too many sessions. She was very tempted to steal the whole thing, but that would get her caught. She flipped to the first of his notes.
Subject has clearly shown signs of generalized dissociative amnesia, with a strong possibility of either bipolar disorder or even dissociative identity disorder. High levels of intelligence but stunted emotional development, coupled with dissociative amnesia suggests a likely abusive home life.
As interesting as it was to see Crystal’s thoughts on their early interactions, Sunset had a goal in mind. She flipped through to the last few pages.
Breakthrough. Subject has created a past consisting of her being a magical pony from another world. She is capable of providing very in depth logic to back her claim, which is unsurprising given her high intellect. Too early for full prognosis, but could potentially be schizophrenia. Unclear at the moment if this is caused by the dissociative amnesia or vice versa. Attempting to go along with the delusions in the hopes that she can be brought to the conclusion that such a world is simply not possible.
Sunset closed the file, placing it neatly where she found it. She shut the drawer, locked it up, and tucked the key safely into her pocket. Calmly, she walked out of the room, silently closed the door behind her, and made her way back to Crystal Clear’s office.
He smiled as she entered, while she took her seat as if nothing was wrong. She even smiled back. He had no idea what was coming.
“We seem to be running low on time,” Crystal Clear said, as if that were a bad thing. “Is there anything else you’d like to discuss?”
There were many. “Nothing in particular. Do you have any other questions for me?”
“Oh, I could always think of something to discuss, I’m sure,” Crystal said with a shrug. “But for now let’s focus on the upcoming week.”
Sunset raised an eyebrow. “That sounds like homework.”
“I thought you wanted the extra workload?”
“Nope.” Sunset grinned. “I want to be away from those kids. I’m indifferent to the extra workload.”
“Unfortunately, you’ll have to deal with both for now.” Crystal Clear folded his hands on the desk and leaned across it. “If you really want to get out of kindergarten, you’re going to have to prove to your teacher that you’re ready to move on.”
Sunset shrugged. “Please. I can finger paint like a damn pro.”
“I’m talking about how you interact with the other kids.” Crystal stopped to think for a moment. “And not swearing would definitely be a good thing, too.”
Other kids. How did she ever think he was on her side? “I’ll be on my best behavior. Promise.”
“I don’t doubt it. I really do mean it when I say you’ve done an excellent job these past few weeks. But being neutral towards the others might be enough to keep you out of trouble, but if you really want to move on, you’ll need to do more.”
“You know, if I didn’t know any better I’d say you want me to make friends.”
Crystal grinned. “Oh no, anything but that,” he said sarcastically.
Sunset just grinned to match him. “Well, I can’t make any promises, but I’ll see what I can do.” She could remember someone else who always wanted her to make friends. The same pony who told her to try being more open.
Crystal checked his clock. “Looks like our time is up. Knowing Ms. Rose, she’ll be very punctual. Let’s not keep her waiting.”
As he stood up, Sunset carefully let the key fall to the floor. When she rose to follow him she kicked it over to his side of the desk, near the side where she had found it. He would never question it. Whenever he noticed it lying on the floor, he would simply assume it fell.
They walked out into the front waiting room, where Rose Petal was sitting with a book. She smiled as they approached. “How’d everything go?”
“Good,” Sunset answered. It was true, in a fashion. It was better to know that Crystal Clear was a lying, manipulative bastard than to just keep pretending he wasn’t.
As they said their goodbyes, Sunset remained wholly cordial. She didn’t let any sign of her foul mood show until she climbed into the van, and even then she just turned to stare out the window.
“I kept the tape paused for when you got back,” Rose Petal said.
“Thanks,” Sunset mumbled, but she didn’t really care. Rose could clearly tell, but she didn’t say anything. She unpaused the tape as they drove off and tried to get Sunset to hum along with her. Sunset just stared resolutely out the window the whole time, not noticing the music coming out of the speakers or Rose Petal’s rendition of it.
The short drive back to the orphanage was filled with thoughts on how to best proceed. Celestia may have been wrong about opening up to others, but she was undeniably good at what she did. And Sunset had been her best student, in part because she paid attention to the lessons her teacher never meant for her to learn as well. “Everyone needs help sometimes. I know I certainly do.”
Yes, that was true, wasn’t it? Celestia was impressive, but she didn’t run a country by herself. Still, she didn’t go telling anypony else her secrets, now did she? No, for all her hypocritical talk about opening up to others, Celestia kept her thoughts extremely well guarded. Even Sunset struggled to see through her most of the time, and she had known the princess for half her life.
‘I need others to accomplish my goals,’ Sunset told herself. It was a hard truth for her to accept, something she had never been able to come to terms with in the past. ‘I need others, but I can not trust them. So I’ll just have to make them do what I want.’
It wasn’t hard. Sunset had practically been bred for this. Her parents had taught her from a young age how to say the right things to the right ponies, lest she become a threat to their precious reputations. Then, once she became Celestia’s gifted student, every day became a trial in trying to study her mentor’s subtle cues to learn her hidden secrets. It turned out that other ponies became much easier to read.
And now she had another tool. While she loathed being trapped as a five-year-old, it did have certain advantages. She was a cute innocent little girl, people wanted to protect her and there was no way she could be guilty of manipulating everyone around her. How foolish she had been to squander that for so long.
By the time they arrived, Sunset had a plan in mind. But before she could open her door, Rose Petal stopped her. “Sunset, is everything okay?”
Sunset took a moment. Things were going to be changing for her. She wasn’t just going to go along with everything that they wanted from her, but she also didn’t really benefit from going back to blowing off everyone around her. From here on out, she was going to be planning her responses to maximize her goals.
So how to respond to Rose Petal? She was someone with a lot of power over Sunset’s living situation, so she’d do well to stay in her good graces for the time being. She decided on a small smile, since her detachment on the ride home meant she couldn’t possibly convince her nothing was wrong.
“I’m fine, today was just a little… exhausting.”
Rose Petal seemed concerned, but that was expected. Sunset wasn’t trying to dispel all of her worries, she just wanted to do enough that there wouldn’t be further questions. “You know, Sunset, I may not be a professional therapist, but I’m always here if you want to talk. I’m pretty good at it, after all these years.”
Sunset widened her smile a bit but averted her eyes, looking slightly sheepish. “Thank you. I’m really okay, though. I just want to rest for a bit.”
Rose kept looking worried for a moment, then it melted away into a smile. “Okay. I’ll come get you at dinner time.”
Sunset thanked her again for good measure, then exited the van. She felt a sense of accomplishment that the interaction had gone exactly how she wanted it to, but it had hardly been the first time she’d done something like that. The bigger test was still to come.
She entered the building and made for her room, but she didn’t plan on staying there. She dug around in a drawer for a moment until she came across a business card. ‘Violet Dusk: Social Worker’ was printed on it, but more importantly was the information underneath. The address for her office, two phone numbers, a fax number, and an email address.
Although it might have been better to use a phone in the office, that would require going through one of the caretakers. Do that, and Rose would find out, which might cause her to worry. This situation could be handled without her, so Sunset decided to take her chances with the other kids.
Sunset never used the lounge area, but that was where the phone was. Fortunately, it was mostly used by older kids, while the kids her age were off playing silly little games. Sunset’s interactions with the older kids had been more limited and would likely be smoother as a result. Unfortunately, she arrived to find someone already on the phone. She chose a seat nearby and decided to wait it out.
He seemed to be talking to his girlfriend, and kept looking around to make sure no one heard him every time he said ‘I love you’. The idiot was too lovestruck to realize his friends kept snickering every time he did. They droned on for ages about the stupidest things, and Sunset was almost ready to give up and come back later by the time he hung up.
Before anyone else could take their turn on the phone, Sunset practically ran over to claim it. The idiot’s friends were too busy taunting him about how much he loved his girlfriend for any of them to notice Sunset, which suited her just fine. She picked up the phone and looked at the number pad.
Shit. She had no idea how to use the damn thing.
She was about to try guessing when she remembered her new outlook. That idiot could work a phone, and he could show her how to.
“Excuse me,” she said in an intentionally small voice. He turned away from his friends to see what she wanted. Of course they had seen each other around, but they had never spoken directly. “I don’t know how to use this.”
He looked at her quizzically. “Who are you trying to call?”
‘None of your damn business.’ Sunset held out the business card. “Her.” She was far from the only kid at New Horizons with a social worker. Still, she didn’t want to alarm them since that could get back to the caretakers. “I left my lunchbox in her car, and I need it for school on Monday.”
He smiled somewhat condescendingly, but it didn’t bother Sunset. In fact, it was just what she wanted. He saw her as nothing but an innocent little girl, and the situation was hardly worth repeating to anyone. “It’s not that hard. You just pick up the phone and dial the numbers.” Rather than wait for Sunset to do it, he dialed them for her. “You should hear it ringing now.”
Sunset pressed the phone to her ear and heard it ring. She smiled and nodded. “Thank you.”
“No problem. Just hang it up when you’re done.” He turned to to leave with his friends, clearing out the immediate area for her. There were other kids around, but they were all staring intently at the TV which was on the other side of the room. As long as she was quiet no one would hear her.
“Violet Dusk speaking.”
Sunset couldn’t help but smile. Technology really was its own kind of magic. “Hello, Violet. It’s Sunset. Sunset Shimmer.”
“Hello, Sunset. Is everything okay?”
This would be a little bit trickier. Violet couldn’t be fooled by putting forth a cute persona; Sunset needed to actually convince her. “I’m worried about my meetings with Crystal Clear. I don’t feel comfortable talking with him anymore.”
“Why not?”
“There’s supposed to be absolute confidentiality between a patient and a psychologist, right? Like, that’s a law, right?”
“Yes, that’s a law. Is there some reason you think he isn’t following that law?”
“Yeah, he’s told me about his other patients. He told me about how Dew Drop’s parents didn’t want her and abused her. And that Sugar Breeze’s mom is also still alive but she’s addicted to drugs, and just sends her toys and stuff. I don’t even think she knows that. And he told me –”
“Okay, that’s enough. I see what you mean.”
Sunset smiled. Technically, Crystal Clear had only told her about Dew Drop. Sunset had overheard some of the caretakers talking about Sugar Breeze when one of her mom’s packages came in one day. But Sunset wasn’t trying to get rid of the caretakers, and she knew both of them had monthly visits with Crystal Clear. Who was to say where Sunset got the information, after all?
But even though it sounded like the doubt was taking hold, Sunset had to be sure it would play out how she wanted. “So… what now? I’m not talking to somebody who’s just gonna go and tell his other patients about me.”
“I understand your concerns. Give me a few days to look into this and I’ll get back to you. I promise we’ll have this sorted out before your next meeting with him. Okay?”
Perfect. “Yes. Thank you.”
“And Sunset?”
“Yeah?”
“Do not repeat this to anyone else. Including Dew Drop and Sugar Breeze, and anyone else you know things about. You should never have been told about that, and it’s very personal information. Do you understand?”
Personal information sounded like the type of thing that could get her very far. Sunset would need to collect a lot more of it, about anyone she possibly could. “You got it. I won’t tell a soul, I promise.”
It was three days later when Rose Petal informed Sunset that she wouldn’t be seeing Crystal Clear anymore. All she would say when Sunset asked why not was that they were worried he didn’t have her best interests in mind. It didn’t matter, Sunset knew the reason with or without confirmation.
The following week, Violet Dusk came to bring her to her psychology appointment. Sunset knew she wasn’t going to be done with them completely, but still felt better about seeing someone new.
“Is it going to be one of the other doctors at the same office?” Sunset asked once they were in her car.
“Probably not, but we don’t know yet,” Violet answered. “We need to figure out who the best fit for you is.” She flashed a small smile, her usual sign of encouragement. “But it’ll be someone more trustworthy than Crystal Clear.”
“How do you know?” Sunset wasn’t particularly concerned, but it would help her if it looked like she was.
“I’m personally going to be looking into their work history once someone is decided on. And unless I give the okay they won’t ever see you. Turns out Crystal Clear had some similar problems in the past. Nothing recent, or else I’d have known about it. But I’ll look into the new doctor much more thoroughly.”
Sunset watched the orphanage disappear behind them as they drove. “So where are we going today, then?”
“Today you’ll be evaluated by a psychiatrist. You’ve met her before, Diamond Facet. She’s a good doctor and will give us a much better idea of what to do next.”
“Okay.”
They drove in silence for a while. Sunset liked Violet better than most people, but she did miss Rose Petal’s classical music tapes.
It wasn’t so bad, though. Sunset needed the time to prepare. It would be amazing if somehow Crystal Clear’s notes about her would be kept to himself, but she doubted that would be the case. No, she was going to have to talk to someone else about Equestria, so she was going to need a plan going in.
“Nervous?” Violet asked after a while.
It took Sunset a second to realize Violet was asking if she was worried about talking to another psychologist in general rather than anything to do with Equestria. “A little.”
“I understand.” Violet glanced over to Sunset, showing another small smile. “As far as I could find out, Crystal Clear hasn’t told anyone about your sessions. We’re removing you as a precaution.” Violet paused for Sunset to reply, but continued when she remained silent. “You did the right thing. I know you don’t have an easy time trusting people, but I am looking out for you. You can tell me about any problems you’re having with anyone.”
Trust Violet? Sunset had thought she could trust Crystal. But she was wrong, and she’d learned better. She couldn’t trust anyone, she could only try to use them to her advantage. “So what’s going to happen to Crystal Clear now?”
If Violet was concerned that Sunset had avoided answering her, she didn’t show it. “I don’t know. I reported my concerns, so he’s out of my hands now. None of the other children I work with are patients of his, so his future is not my concern.”
Sunset smirked, remembering how she had said something similar before. “Only me?”
Violet grinned. Not her usual slight smile that always made Sunset wonder how someone so unemotional had come to work with children, but an actual grin. “That’s right. Only you.”
They pulled into the hospital parking lot. Violet didn’t even attempt to find a spot near the front, choosing the safer bet of a marginally close one rather than waste time driving around for the chance at something better. Once they were out Violet locked the doors, checked the locks, then led the way into the building.
The first time Sunset had seen the hospital had been an amazing experience. She had been terrified, of course, but amazed nonetheless. But now that she was more familiar with human technology the whole thing seemed exceptionally dull. At the much smaller office that Crystal Clear worked in, they would check in and see him immediately thereafter. Even with an appointment, it seemed that was not a luxury afforded to the larger hospital. Everywhere she looked, Sunset saw nurses, doctors, and technicians running around to get to their next client. Violet and Sunset just sat patiently reading their books while most of the people around them complained about the long wait.
“Sunset Shimmer?”
Sunset looked up to see a technician calling her name. “Over here,” Violet answered in Sunset’s place.
The tech smiled warmly. “Dr. Facet is ready to see you now.”
Sunset stood while Violet remained sitting. It seemed she would be speaking with Diamond Facet alone.
“Remember, Sunset,” Violet said before she could go, “the most important thing is to answer anything she asks honestly. This isn’t the kind of test you can fail at, we just need to know how things have progressed since you’ve been seeing Crystal Clear.”
Sunset nodded, then turned to follow the tech. He led her to an office, which Sunset vaguely recognized. She remembered the woman who greeted her much better.
“Hello, Sunset. It’s been a little while.”
“Hello, Dr. Facet,” Sunset said. People liked being greeted with their proper titles, especially from little kids. It was endearing to see a kid who knew how to address an adult, and Sunset wanted to endear herself to Diamond Facet.
The tech left them alone, closing the door. Diamond gestured for Sunset to take a seat, so she did.
“And how are you doing these days, Sunset?” Diamond asked.
Small talk. Easy enough to navigate. “I’m doing a lot better. And how are you, Dr. Facet?”
Diamond smiled at the polite question. No doubt she remembered Sunset’s rudeness the last time they spoke. That would actually work in her favor, though; it would show how much better she was these days.
“I’m doing very well, thank you,” Diamond said. “Now, you were seeing Dr. Clear until recently. What did you think about him?”
Sunset lost her smile. She couldn’t play the innocent little girl there, Diamond probably knew Sunset was the cause for Violet’s investigation. “I thought he was nice, at first.”
“He didn’t seem so nice after a while, though?”
A carefully planned hesitation, to make Sunset look like she felt guilty about telling the truth. “Well, he was still really nice, but… I know he told me things he shouldn’t have. I didn’t want him telling other people about me.”
Diamond nodded. “Yes, that was a bad thing for him to do. But that’s behind you now, and you won’t have to worry about that again.”
Sunset nodded and let a little of her smile back. She didn’t want them to dwell on the circumstances surrounding her conflict with Crystal. “I know.”
Diamond smiled. She was getting the exact reaction she wanted, seeing that Sunset was feeling all the appropriate emotions. “What kinds of things did you and Crystal talk about?”
“He would ask about how I was doing. If I was getting along with the other kids, and listening to my teachers and the caretakers at New Horizons.” Sunset fidgeted in her seat, giving a clear sign that she was hiding something. Diamond Facet knew about Equestria, her question had confirmed it. Sunset would just have to frame her explanation properly.
“Is there anything else you two talked about?”
“Uhm…” Sunset looked down as she spoke. “He, uh, he asked about the books I was reading. He would always find me new books to read.”
Diamond Facet leaned across the desk and spoke in a voice barely above a whisper. “Did you and Dr. Clear ever have any… secrets?”
Sunset admired her attempt. If she were actually five years old, it might have even worked. But Sunset wasn’t going to be goaded into spilling a secret because an adult was making it seem exciting. Sunset was going to spill a secret in her own time because that was what she planned on doing all along. “Uhm… I don’t know…”
“Sunset, you know you can tell me about anything at all, right?” Diamond waited for a moment, so Sunset gave a hesitant nod. “What secret things did you and Dr. Clear talk about?”
Sunset looked resolutely at the desk and mumbled her answer. “Equestria.”
“Oh? And what is Equestria?” Diamond asked, feigning ignorance. Sunset had barely pronounced the foreign word, if Diamond had been paying as much attention to her actions as Sunset was she would have asked Sunset to repeat herself louder.
“It’s… it’s…” Sunset wished she could blush on command. Instead, she counted on the rest of her body language to convey that she was embarrassed to talk about the subject. “It’s a magic world. With ponies.”
“And is Equestria a real place?”
“I… I don’t know.”
“You don’t?” Diamond playfully exaggerated her disbelief.
“No,” Sunset answered.
“But you did tell Dr. Clear it was real, didn’t you?”
Ah, letting the details through, counting on the fact that Sunset would be too young to realize that Diamond Facet knew more than she should. “I… yes.”
“Why did you tell him that if you don’t know?”
Sunset didn’t answer. She bit her lip, making sure the motion was large enough that Diamond Facet would see it.
“It’s okay, Sunset. You’re not in trouble. No matter what the answer is, it’s okay as long as it’s the truth.”
“Because… because he really wanted to know.” Sunset maintained her gaze towards the ground. “He liked hearing about Equestria, he always asked about it.”
Diamond smiled her understanding. Sunset couldn’t tell if that was because she was buying it or because she wanted Sunset to trust her. “Sunset, did you make up everything about Equestria?”
The final piece to the puzzle Sunset was crafting. “I dreamt about it.”
“Did you tell Dr. Clear that it was a dream?”
“I… no.” Sunset looked into her face for only a moment before turning away again. “It… felt real when I woke up.”
“Can you explain what you mean?” Diamond asked. “Please, tell me everything that happened when you first told Dr. Clear about Equestria.”
The hallmark of good psychology. Diamond wanted Sunset to clarify without offering any suggestions, since that could skew her answer. Sunset needed to convey that Crystal hadn’t done that. “Well… Dr. Clear and Mrs. Dusk took me to see a pony at Sweet Apple Acres, but it was scary. I had dreams after that, about ponies. But they could talk and they were nice. But sometimes, they start nice but turn into bad dreams, and they don’t feel like dreams when I wake up. Dr. Clear came to talk to me after a bad dream, and I told him about it.”
“You told him about the dream?” Diamond asked.
“Yes. But, well, I didn’t… I thought…”
“You thought it was real?”
Sunset nodded.
“And what did Dr. Clear do when you told him about this dream?”
“He… asked questions.” Sunset carefully reiterated certain information, hoping to put forth the idea that Crystal had pushed for more information instead of letting Sunset volunteer it, leading to her constructing an elaborate lie. “He asked a lot of questions about Equestria. He was happy when I told him more about it.”
“Did Dr. Clear ever say that Equestria was real?”
Sunset paused to think a moment. “I don’t remember. But he really wanted to know about it, so I think he believed it was real.”
“And do you believe Equestria is a real place, Sunset?”
Sunset blinked a few times and looked into Diamond Facet’s eyes as she gave her absolute, affirmative answer. “No,” she said. “There’s no such thing as Equestria.”
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And Sunset the schemer is born, the "Bad girl we love to hate" as Flash so bluntly put it. Now we see how easy it is for a genius intellect in the body of a child to wrap the world around her finger. So exciting!
Coralane merch, swag, and ephemera. Kubo and the two strings, Foxed, Box Trolls and Paranorman...
7820044
This is too easy to make a joke about... But I agree...
That sounds more like Starlight Glimmer than Sunset. Then again, my definition of trust might not be the same yours. Seeing as confidentiality, and the need for some sense of comfort or security, that comes with a belief the other person (party) is as 'good' or as 'genuine' a person as I am doesn't necessarily factor into insight, discipline, observation, or ____________, so much as faith, desirability, incentive, or charm.
Oh so deliciously manipulative.
This has gotten where I thought it would, but the way you wrote Sunset's realization of how she can't trust humans with a reality they would never believe, without absolute prove, specially from a child, is just beautiful. 
In my headcanon Sunset was the kind of girl that always acted as a model student near her teachers: perfect grades, polite to her fault. How could their perfect student be a bully, or do something bad? I love my bad girl!
I really liked her as a villain. They fu**ed it up at the end of the first EQG, but before the whole She-demon fiasco, I was rooting for her. She just needed to learn photoshop.
Hope you had a Merry Christmas!
Finally, some real Sunset Shimmer.
Can't wait for the next chapter!
7820044
New, from the makers of the Magic Horse Soap Opera™ we bring you: Manipulative Scheming©, now in fun size!
7820078
I recognize the Laika movies, but I'm unsure what the connection between them and the passage you quoted is (and idk what Foxed is). Perhaps it's because I've only seen two of the movies so I'm missing some sort of connection here.
I feel like I'm missing something here
7820081
Hey now, this is a family story and we don't need those kinds of jokes here
...nope, couldn't keep a straight face
Damn, comments coming in quick tonight (not that I'm complaining!). Both of y'all commented while I was in the middle of replying to other comments lol
7820133
Indeed, I've always shared that headcanon as well (and I've also always been baffled by her inability to use Photoshop lol). As for the shift in her behavior at the end, it didn't really bother me. Normally I abhor the trope of making the villain get way more villainous just before the final showdown, but I made an exception for Sunset. I've always seen it as her completely losing control, in a Nightmare Moon type deal – she bit off more than she could chew with the Element of
FriendshipMagic, and became overwhelmed by the magical energy.7820140
She may not be quite the person she is in EQG1 yet, but she's finally on her way
7820159 Yeah, now I share the idea that she just went loco in the coco when she put on the Element of Magic, thus the attempted murder, and the incredibly clever plan of using a bunch of brainless high school students to conquer Equestria... and then she tasted the rainbow and realized just what she was doing. I would have cried too if I suddenly realized that I had the amazing magic powers I wanted, and ruined it by losing it, going berserk and thinking the most stupid plan ever.
But, at first, that whole scene and the half a** redemption just made me mad and I really disliked her character for a while, but then Rainbow Rocks made everything better.
Alicornia was burning.... and only an abominable snowman and his little dog Frank could save us.
7820181
Yeah, I definitely do feel you on that. She could have gone full evil without picking such a mind-numbingly stupid plan, and the redemption was rushed. I more or less accepted the redemption only because it's ponies. The actual target market doesn't really care for open-ended stories that could later lead to proper well-paced redemption stories, so we keep getting these rush jobs with characters like Nightmare Moon/Luna, Sunset, and Starlight, where they're suddenly not evil in the last few minutes. But yeah, it was really Rainbow Rocks that sold me on Sunset as well.
7820145
Theories about media exposure. I think Richard Gardener had an interest in separating known media from the child's play fantasy as a way of identifying problems... good luck with that, Shockingly SAO would be considered a typical divorce or break up fantasy. Which brings up a lot of questions about harem anime in general. Then again I actually read a theory that Ash is actually in a coma and as the series wears on his grip on reality has fallen into fantasy.
http://aminoapps.com/page/pokemon/3401124/deconstructing-the-ash-coma-theory
http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/Ash%27s_Coma
not originally a creepy pasta article the original was part of a series that delved into questions no one was meant to ask, like how much money does Scrooge McDuck actually have in his money bin? (25 billion USD dollars apparently. )
I actually kind of think the laika movies are all different kinds of work through or play therapy models for something, but a can't place what, why, or for whom.
7820205
Another great chapter. Damn though, no wonder Sunset was such a manipulator, she was raised by ponies who care most about social standing, the biggest hypocrite and manipulator in Equestria, and the first person she opened up to and trusted was lying to her and manipulating her in his own way. Plus, it doesn't help that she has the emotions of a five year old. I'm surprised she hasn't snapped yet (put any of the mane 6 in a twentieth of this kind of strain of pressure, and well, we get Lesson Zero and a Party of One style episodes).
7820181
7820205
The plan might have been seemed stupid, but it made sense character wise. Through the entire movie, Sunset wanted power and control, so when she went crazy from the crown (something that I thought was obvious from when she went from not willing to hurt Spike to trying to kill Twilight, which the later movies confirmed), she took full control of the school. Also, it probably would've worked due to there being nothing to stop her. No Twilight means no elements, so the mane 5 are useless, she had the element of magic so she could arguably resist Discord, the Royal Guard has proven to be beyond useless (as have the Wonderbolts), and none of the alicorns are a threat either (Luna is never around, Celestia has never won a fight without the elements or help, and Cadence's track record is a giant worm). Of course some of this is speculation, but it seems pretty likely Sunset would've won without the Deus Ex Machina machine there to stop her (though Sunset herself may have fought back like human Twilight in Friendship Games). The only combat wins any characters have in the show are the mane 6 beat a bunch of changelings, and Celestia and Luna beat Sombra (sort of, as he still managed to do whatever to the Crystal Empire and according to the season 5 finale, Celestia can't compete with him). Everything else was a magic artifact (or other Deus Ex Machina like the love shield) or Starswirl and Scorpan.
7820724
And to be fair, he really had no kind of reason to believe her on that one. But yeah, her trust issues definitely went up here.
Thank you
While you're not wrong (undeniably, those episodes happened after all), I think it's worth noting that there's an important difference in the type of story I'm telling and what Hasbro does. Twilight and Pinkie overreacted in those episodes, and characters overreact approximately all the damn time, but that's easily attributed to the show being targeted to children. If we had Sunset appearing in an episodic TV show, she would probably also have episodes where she overreacted. Meanwhile, It's not just my casual use of profanity that makes this a story intended for adults, and so I write the characters in a different way than Hasbro ever would. When I write Twilight and Pinkie, I keep the basics of situations like that (they both have anxiety issues, triggered by very different things) without going so over the top with them.
Eh, that's a very shaky argument. Discord himself ruled out that possibility when he made it clear without the Element of Kindness the other five would be useless. The better argument here is that Sunset simply didn't count on Discord being a threat, since she possibly didn't even know about him at all (Celestia doesn't seem terribly keen on talking about the past) and if she did she probably didn' know he was free.
If Sunset's demon form was enough on her own, then she ought to have just gone alone. She can travel faster and easier without an army, and no matter what your opinion on the alicorns (Cadance bossed that worm, yo), even they could handle a bunch of zombified teenagers, who were all unarmed.
But on that note, yeah, Sunset could've definitely brought some havoc by her damn self. My own opinion on the alicorns is more 'we don't know' than useless, so I wouldn't go so far as to say she would definitely win, but she'd have a fighting chance. Especially if she's not too far gone to use her knowledge of Equestria to her favor.
7820791 Just realized how I typed out my comment... Didn't mean to directly compare this Sunset to the canon characters, more EQG1 Sunset to them, but I typed that part last... The argument for Discord is the shakiest part, but it could still be argued that the mane 6 couldn't access the elements powers without the 6, while Sunset did with just magic, even if it was corrupted. More importantly though, Discord has been relevant twice in Equestria spanning events since his reformation. In the first, he worked with Tirek and lost his magic. In the second, he didn't have his magic due to a throne. Good Discord is rather weak and easy to shut down, if he even participates (Sunset may even be able to pull a Tirek and convince him to join her).
As for alicorns, they have never shown any great power in the show. The only arguable feat was Cadence's love shield. Between Celestia versus Sombra army and Twilight versus Starlight, where it's arguable both sides are going all out, and the season 6 premier and finale, there's no reason to believe any of the alicorns are more than high tier unicorns who can fly. One sixth of the magic fix everything jewelry (that stopped Nightmare Moon and Discord in a single shot) worth of power would be more than enough. As for the teenagers, they were probably just to make her look more crazy and evil, though imagine having a small army of innocent child meat shields against supposed paragons of virtue. Of course the argument for her victory is shaky (though season 5 finale argues that literally Twilight and her friends are needed for any victory, that without them even Flim and Flam can take over...), but so are all the counter arguments, especially the alicorns.
7820827
Those examples don't exactly help your case. Celestia and Sombra both took the the battlefield, and while their respective subjects were duking it out with clear signs of putting effort into things, she and Sombra were just kind of casually waltzing around the battlefield attacking when people came close. Not to mention that the mere existence of these timelines effectively require that Celestia - or someone other than the Elements of Harmony as we know them - be capable of defeating the villains we've seen throughout the series. None of the villains were awakened as a result of the M6's actions, with perhaps the exception of Discord (Celestia indicates that the spell they placed on him began wearing off when they were no longer connected to the Elements, and seems to imply that the Elements choosing the M6 was what caused this). Meaning that for us to reach a point where Celestia could be facing Sombra, somepony had to have defeated Nightmare Moon, Chrysalis, and possibly Discord depending on whether or not he would be released without the Elements choosing somepony other than Luna and Celestia. And since the only force fighting on behalf of Equestria that we see in Sombra's timeline is Celestia, it's hard to make an argument that it must have been some other character(s) never shown, named, or even mentioned.
Twilight and Starlight don't really do a good job of helping your case because both of those individuals are repeatedly suggested to be far beyond the norm for unicorns. Twilight is regarded as a prodigy from the moment we see her get her cutie mark, and Starlight has repeatedly been depicted as an absolute beast when it comes to developing and mastering spells. You can't throw two prodigies up against each other, and then try to use that as a basis for the argument that if they came out even then every regular Joe must also be around that level. That would kind of defeat the entire purpose of depicting them as prodigies - you know, people who are considerably beyond the norm.
As for the S6 opener: When faced with the storm in the Crystal Empire, the team split up to perform the duties they were expected to be the most suitable for. Most of the M6 go out to try keeping the populace busy. Cadance and Twilight - the latter being a magical prodigy even before becoming an alicorn - were relegated to research. The ones who were expected to actually go out and handle the brunt of the grunt work were Celestia and Luna. And it's not just a baseless example of how they hold up compared to others. We later see Rainbow Dash - a pegasus who has seemingly been working with weather for quite a while now - attempt to bust the clouds, and she lasts for all of about a minute before the storm freezes her wings to a point where she has to land and continue on foot. Celestia and Luna spent nearly the entire episode right in the thick of it before they were overwhelmed. So at the very least, we can safely say that they're considerably more resistant to things like the weather than their pegasus counterparts.
And as for the S6 finale...trying to use that as any kind of basis for power is a pretty silly argument, because we have no idea how they were kidnapped in the first place. The fact that not a single pony apparently noticed anything was off actually conflicts with the notion that they apprehended them through a direct confrontation, rather than through taking them unawares and likely before they had a chance to resist. After all, even if they only put up a small fight, it's very unlikely that they could have a brawl in the middle of their castles or towns without drawing any attention whatsoever. The entire plot was contrived, but if you honesty want to use it as an example of anything it serves more as an example of carelessness than anything regarding their power or ability to fight, given that the way things are set up lean far more heavily towards implying that they were taken before they had a chance to fight back.
You seem to be working under the notion that the Elements of Harmony are some kind of evenly split division of power. That doesn't really make much sense given what we know of them. If they contained any significant amount of power individually, then the characters would logically be able to use them to great effect regardless of whether or not all six were present. Yet we've been explicitly shown that this isn't the case - Discord's actions (and their own actions in response) make it pretty clear that even one Element being gone would effectively render the Elements of Harmony useless. Likewise, the fact that Twilight and the rest of the human counterparts to the M6 were able to utilize the aspects of all of the Elements despite the fact that only the Element of Magic was physically present would indicate that they - and Sunset - weren't drawing on the power of a single one of the Elements, but rather all six with the Element of Magic as a medium. Furthermore, the fact that they were able to effortlessly overwhelm Sunset despite the fact that both parties were drawing their power from the exact same source suggests that Sunset was very, very far from drawing on the full power of the Element or Elements, regardless of whether they were drawing entirely on the Element of Magic or actually drawing on all of the Elements with that particular Element as a medium.
And even if we assume that each of them are split evenly and can be drawn upon individually, that just makes it even less plausible that Sunset would be able to win on the other side of the mirror. If she can draw on the power of one Element even if the others aren't present, then logic dictates the other five could do the same - and the other five were literally sitting around on the other side of the portal alongside the princesses just waiting to see what happened. Even if we ignore that the series has actually been pretty consistent as depicting the Alicorns as being fairly beyond their average pegasus/unicorn/earth pony counterparts, ignore that it's pretty firmly established that the Elements can't be used individually, and ignore that Sunset was defeated by people drawing on the same source of power as her (suggesting that she wasn't remotely close to tapping into "one sixth" of the full capacity of the Elements of Harmony), the very premise that allows us to ignore them would also support the notion that the other five Element Bearers would be equally capable of drawing on their own Elements, meaning that Sunset would still have a snowflake's chance in hell of coming out on top if she defeated Twilight in the human world.
7820205
Honestly, I think the problem is that they were still far too used to writing half-hour episodes. With a thirty minute episode people can be a little more willing to overlook some silly things here and there because they understand that the writers are working with a limited amount of time and primarily for a younger audience. So if things occasionally seem rushed or don't make too much sense, it's a bit more forgivable. Problem is, that style of writing carried over into the movie. So the picture I get when I watch it is this: The authors had it written out like they would a regular episode, and then rather than attempting to expand that type of story into movie length by going a bit more in-depth, they just shoved a bunch of filler into the extra space without bothering to recognize that people wouldn't be as lenient on a rushed finale in a movie as they would in a normal episode.
So we start with a villain who actually seems to be extremely intelligent and manipulative, but because they've wasted so much time on filler instead of expanding on the character(s), their plans, and their actions, she suddenly shifts into the villain who:
- Actually tries to win the crown legitimately through a competition instead of just trying to steal the darned thing.
- Tries to ruin Twilight's chances of winning by filming her doing embarrassing things and framing her for destroying property rather than, you know, trying to catch her living on school property and attempting to report her to the authorities, since it would seem pretty likely that this was a runaway or delinquent of some sort.
- Manages to grab a hostage, then just inexplicably agrees to let the hostage go before the person she's using that hostage against gives her what she wants. Kind of the exact opposite of what taking a hostage is for.
- Tries to hold the portal itself hostage by threatening to hit it with a sledgehammer...despite the fact that, with the portal being an immaterial opening rather than a physical presence (you know, being a portal...), the sledgehammer would presumably just go through the portal.
And that's ignoring that she is apparently convinced drawing on the power of an Element of Harmony will somehow grant her the capacity to defeat a group of at least five ponies who also have access to the Elements of Harmony. If she believes they can't be used individually, then stealing the Element of Magic would be stupid. If she believes they can be used individually, then stealing it and expecting it to be enough to overcome the other five Elements is also stupid. And if she believes that one can draw on the power of all the Elements so long as they have one Element as the medium (as seems to be the case in the first film, since Twilight and the Humane Five seem to activate all six aspects of the EoH even though only the Element of Magic is present), then again, it's still stupid because that means she thinks she can draw on more of its power individually than the other five Bearers - the ones who were actually chosen by the Elements - would be able to draw upon together.
If anything, I'd say that the teenage mind-slave army was actually one of the smartest parts of her plan, since she probably realizes that Celestia, Luna, Cadance, and the Element Bearers would be hesitant to hurt innocent people. So at the very least, she could use them as adequate meat shields and just hope that if the other Bearers activated the Elements it wouldn't simply free their minds. After all, the Elements of Harmony are kind of notorious for doing things like that without actually physically harming people.
The way they handled Sunset's plan in EG is up there with Chrysalis' plots in the S2 and S6 finales in terms of completely nonsensical plans that rely heavily on luck and are likely to fall apart unless everything literally goes as perfectly as conceivably possible. At least when Discord comes up with an insane, nonsensical plan, it's justified by the fact that he's...you know...Discord. Spirit of Chaos and Disharmony. Logic and reason really aren't his things. Most of the other villains don't really have that excuse, so when they come up with ridiculous and nonsensical plans, that's pretty much all they are.
Anyway, on the subject of the story: Sunset's method of manipulation and deceit here is my favorite kind. It's infinitely more effective because it's based partially in truth. Regardless of his intentions, telling Sunset about the personal life of another client is extremely frowned upon by the psyche community and would be a clear violation of doctor-patient confidentiality. That would be potential grounds to remove her from his care (and possibly even have harsher punishments for him) even if she hadn't added on the things that she learned from others. If she just told them things that she was making up, he could honestly defend himself without putting his career in any more jeopardy than it would have been otherwise. However, since she told them something that he actually did and then lumped it in with something even more inappropriate (while both are violations of confidentiality, I'd say that telling her about a girl's abusive/negligent mother doing drugs and that sort of thing is a fair bit more severe than just saying that one of them came from a bad home and was sensitive as a result), even if he can try to deny one, he can't deny the other without straight up lying. And if they find that he's lying, or have sufficient reason to believe that he is, it would do far more harm to his career than if he admitted to the things he actually did.
That said, it was also a bad move to continue attempting to trick Sunset into believing that he actually thought her tales of Equestria were legit. Maybe for a normal child it would work and they'd eventually realize that such a fantastical world wasn't possible (as far as anyone in their world is aware). However, for someone who has repeatedly demonstrated how clever, intelligent, and insightful as Sunset has, every session that he failed to "find" the portal or provide her with meaningful suggestions or solutions would inevitably make her more and more suspicious that he was just playing lip service to her claims. I also like how the ordeal played into Sunset's development. She encountered one of the few people she felt she could genuinely trust, and it turns out they were doing the same thing to her that she'd been taught to do by her parents - tell people what they want to hear while working to achieve your own goals for them. Really cements that whole "people can't be trusted, so you have to rely on yourself and look out for yourself before anything else" mentality.
7820827 Just want to point out that, while Celestia and Luna may not have beaten anything since season 1, they do have a history to them. They did admittedly have the Elements the first time they petrified Discord and we don't know how they fought Sombra and Tirek, but Celestia only resorted to the Elements after her battle with Nightmare Moon had destroyed the old castle. My feel for it is more that they can't go all out without (in their minds) unacceptable collateral damage than that they've become too much weaker. They can certainly be defeated -- the changeling future might be the best example as Discord seems to need to be fought with the Elements -- but whether the corrupted crown actually gave Sunset enough of an edge is another question, and might be more dependant on how she fought them than on brute strength. The mirror opening into the Crystal Empire rather than the even more crowded (and less evacuation-ready) city of Canterlot would probably help the alicorns, but I can't imagine they'd be particularly willing to fight the mind-controled ponies (both the transformed students and the actual ponies they'd help her catch) to get close enough to get the crown off her, even ignoring that she'd have her own magic back once through the mirror.
7821412
Not quite true, with no wedding, there would be no place for Chrysalis to launch her attack, and with no gala plus crusaders, Discord wouldn't be free yet (though the complete avoidance of the Plundervines, which captured Celestia and Luna, in the episode really bothered me). We also don't know what caused the Crystal Empire to reappear (could be Cadence's love shield, for example), or Cerberus to run (plus, no Discord means Tirek might not have gained anywhere near as much magic before being stopped). The only event that was set in stone was Nightmare Moon's return (which can be argued was the result of Twilight's magic surge, as the story said the stars will aid in her escape, though that's stretching it). There's no reason to assume all of the same events happened in the alternate timelines, especially considering there was no real difference each time the rainboom was stopped. Oh, and Flim and Flam somehow took over in a bad future, so it's arguable about how anything went down.
As for bringing up Starlight vs Twilight, the point of that was to show that Twilight becoming an alicorn wasn't a power boost. She was still the same level in unicorn magic, just can fly now. To add to that, what is Sombra? He seems to be a corrupted unicorn (no, I don't consider the comics canon, and the Sombra redemption one was contradicted by the season 5 finale anyways), and seems to be more powerful than Celestia (otherwise she could just directly fight him).
The reason I said one sixth of the power was as a low point. The movie seemed to imply that the element of magic was the only one that really mattered, as none of the others were there and Twilight still summoned the rainbow. My guess as to why the element reacted to Sunset and not in the season two premier is that the human world had no magic at the time, so it triggered something, but the reasoning is irrelevant. Sunset had a boost from the element, no one but Twilight and Celestia have been able to do anything besides the group rainbow with them (also didn't help that none of them had the elements on them during the movie, so they could still be in Canterlot or Twilight's library), and both wielded magic.
We're also ignoring Sunset herself. While we have no definitive show of her power, she was Celestia's student and one of the few unicorns who can teleport, so she's at least above average. In the climax, Sunset was drawing power from element, so she definitely had a huge boost in power, being able to casually mind control the entire dance, turn two people into demons, force crush the entrance to the school, and hurl a massive fireball in a world with no magic (in Rainbow Rocks when Twilight ponies up, she doesn't have her full unicorn magic). If Sunset was anywhere near Twilight in power, the boost would put her extremely high up (Rarity with a dark magic book was able to casually remake the town in her image, well beyond anything she's been capable of before, same with Trixie and the alicorn amulet). Also, there's nothing saying that her army couldn't be turned into demons or granted instinctual knowledge (everyone who get wings in the human world knows how to fly). Sunset didn't struggle with any of the magic, she just got countered by Twilight's ownership of the crown/proper usage of harmony/whatever she did.
As for alicorns, sure they're well above average, but they aren't god tier like most people paint them. They're just very powerful unicorns (probably magic talented, though the entire magic based on cutie marks thing seems to have been dropped) that can fly (and apparently not fly better than average weather teams). We're never given a real showing of a pegasus or earth pony fighting (the closest we get is the changeling drones and the Iron Pony competition), and none of the alicorns employ any techniques besides lasers, shields, and teleports. It also doesn't help any of the three other alicorns' cases when they gave Twilight their magic to hide it from Tirek, and she dueled him to a standstill. She has next to zero combat experience and was handling more magic than she ever had before (by herself), and still managed to force a draw before he used his hostages. If Celestia or Luna were decent at fighting, they should be able to curb stomp him with the alicorn magic. Celestia's showing against Chrysalis doesn't help either.
To be frank, the entire argument for either side requires a lot of assumptions. The three alicorns have never been shown to be incredibly powerful (relative to the main cast), Twilight's friends contribute next to nothing in combat situations, and we have no clue how powerful Sunset was before the transformation, during it, and how that power would carry over into Equestria. We also know nothing on how the elements work, their max power, or how they'd react to Sunset and her drawing power from magic. We also don't know where the other elements are, what she was going to do with the students, and what would happen with Discord (he could easily betray Celestia or not even show up). The only thing we know is that the movie treated Sunset as a threat, so it's safe to assume she would've done at least some damage.
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Was typing when you posted. Yeah, my problem with Celestia and Luna's history is that the only victory they potentially had without outside help or the elements was Sombra, which was never confirmed to not use either. They had Starswirl and Scorpan when fighting Tirek, so we have no clue how much they contributed. We basically know nothing on the max power of Sunset (Celestia on the other hand had the Chrysalis fight and the Sombra future fight that put her at around Starlight's level, and she had no reason to hold back in the second), either side's combat skills, or overall plan or how they'd react.
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Oh... I don't know about you, but this story just got intense, Sunset taking her 'first' steps into the Sunset we see in the very first Equestria Girls movie, as a manipulative five year old. Though I did enjoy the story when it was more Sunset doing things "honestly", her new plan is sure to cause some trouble along the way
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If you'll recall, even Twilight - the groom's younger sibling - had no idea that there was going to be a wedding. In fact, her reaction indicates that she had no idea Shining Armor and Cadance were even dating. It's true that there would be no place for her to launch her attack if there was no wedding, but since the Mane Six becoming the Elements of Harmony had nothing whatsoever to do with the wedding (it was something that began entirely independent of them or their actions), you have no basis for claiming that there wouldn't have been a wedding. In fact, the evidence pretty much indicates the exact opposite - there would be a wedding, but none of the Mane Six save for Twilight would have any reason to be there, thus giving Chrysalis more reason to invade since there would be fewer known obstacles.
The fact that he was clearly freed in one of the alternate timelines indicates otherwise. Likewise, just as the absence of the other villains indicates that they must have been defeated, so too does the absence of the plundervines indicate that they were likely overcome by some force or another.
But we do know for a fact that it would occur with or without the Mane Six, as it was entirely unrelated to anything they did. We know this because it reappeared without them both in the main timeline and in the alternate timeline. Thus with it (and Sombra) reappearing in both the alternate timelines despite the discrepancies between them, you have absolutely no basis to claim that it would not have appeared in the other timelines, as it appears to have been a completely independent event unrelated to the direct actions of anyone in the series.
And if we do not know what caused Cerberus to run, know that it had nothing whatsoever to do with the factors that were changed between the timelines, and know that it happened in an alternate timeline regardless of those altered factors, we have plenty of evidence to indicate that it would happen in all of the timelines and absolutely none to say that it would not.
No, actually, it isn't the only event set in stone. Only one confirmed change took place between the main timeline and the alternate timeline, and that change was whether or not the Mane Six achieved their cutie marks (and in turn took the actions leading to them becoming the Element Bearers). Despite the fact that this is the only factor confirmed to have been changed, we see that all of these events still took place in different timelines. Meaning that, again, they were entirely unrelated to the Mane Six, and therefore we cannot reasonably claim that they must be changed in the alternate timelines when the only factor known to have changed in those timelines was the Mane Six becoming...well...the Mane Six.
You can't claim that the other events "might not have happened" when we're explicitly shown in multiple timelines that they happened despite only one confirmed change taking place. For the argument that "We can't confirm they still happened" to work, we have to make up changes ourselves and disregard every instance where they were shown to have occurred as being anomalies while having nothing to serve as a standard for them to deviate from. For the argument that the events still occurred regardless of the Mane Six being present or not to work, we merely need to look at the instances in the episode where the events were clearly shown to occur in different timelines, despite the same confirmed change taking place in all of those timelines.
"Celestia seems to be more powerful than Sombra (otherwise, he could just directly fight her)."
Do you see what I did there, and why that reasoning is flawed? When the exact same argument can be made about the other character with the exact same degree of validity and evidence supporting it, it's not a very good basis for an argument. If you insist that Celestia can't be as powerful as him because she didn't directly fight him, then that exact same line of reasoning dictates that the same would apply to Sombra. It's an extremely self-contradictory line of reasoning that only works if we apply the conditions to one party but deny it to another with no basis save that applying the conditions to one or the other serves our argument.
And the problem with your reasoning regarding Starlight and Twilight is that Starlight doesn't need to match Twilight in terms of power to win. She wasn't able to force Twilight to a stalemate because of raw power. She was able to force Twilight to a stalemate because she created a scenario where power was irrelevant. Heck, we even see this in action. As soon as Twilight actually engages Starlight in a head-on battle and then turns Starlight's spell back on her, Starlight stops trying to fight Twilight, and just focuses on disrupting the race. In other words, after actually coming to blows with Twilight, Starlight stopped any attempts to face her directly. That doesn't suggest that she's very confident in her ability to win a direct fight.
Except saying "one sixth of the power" isn't a low point. It's still severely overstating its power even if we assume equal distribution of power between Elements, and that one Element can be drawn upon independently (despite all evidence to the contrary). Again, Twilight and her companions drew from the same source as Sunset. Meaning that they were all drawing from the same pool of resources. Meaning that even if it was only the Element of Magic that mattered, it's flat out confirmed that Sunset wasn't even drawing on the entirety of it's power. If that were the case, then they wouldn't have been able to overwhelm her, as she would have already been using a significantly greater portion of their shared resource pool.
She wasn't drawing on "one sixth" of the Elements of Harmony. She was drawing on fraction of one-sixth of an Element.
And yet nothing she displayed was considerably beyond what we know her opposition to be capable of. Even ignoring Discord, who is just stupidly OP due to the nature of his magic, throwing around destructive magic isn't exactly something rare. Luna (as Nightmare Moon) casually blasted large chunks of their castle apart. Celestia walked off one such blast within a few moments. Twilight has been casually transfiguring living things into semi-animate objects since she transformed a frog into an orange in season two. Twilight also casually used a mind-altering spell that infected her entire town, which Celestia disrupted in a single swoop. And I find it unlikely that Celestia, Luna, and Cadance would be completely and utterly lost at something that Twilight could do casually in season two, especially given the implications of Celestia already knowing how to disrupt the mind-altering spell. Not to mention that rather questionable mind-affecting properties that Cadance's display to the filly Twilight (during Twilight's flashback after we first learn of Cadance) brings up.
And if we're looking at the raw power that Sunset can bring to bear? She crushes the front of a school and throws a fireball. The combined power of Twilight, Celestia, Luna, and Cadance was able to casually obliterate mountains. The four of them together possess enough raw magical power to stalemate the combined power of Tirek, Discord, and large swathes of Equestria's pony population. Even if Twilight has the overwhelming majority of that power, that still leaves three quarters of a pretty massive pool of raw destructive power available to dogpile Sunset as soon as she steps through the portal.
I'm not going to lie, I'm a little baffled here. In the same post where you acknowledge the battle in which the combined power of four alicorns was enough to completely stalemate the combined power of Tirek, Discord, and the large swathes of the Equestrian population whose magic Tirek consumed, you simultaneously argue that they aren't "god tier' compared to the rest of the population. Four of them being able to utterly wreck the combined magical might of a large portion of their country (after all, if they could match that power in addition to Discord and Tirek's powers, it stands to reason that they would easily overwhelm that power on its own) pretty much indicates that they are god tier compared to other ponies.
As for them being able to fight Tirek? Even if we explicitly ignore that they already did so the last time that he was around (you know, when they're talking about Tirek's history?), their dialogue actually indicates that they could defeat Tirek. It was Discord who posed the problem. When Twilight asked them what was going on after Discord's betrayal, they specifically noted that they would not be able to defeat Tirek "With Discord by his side." Their wording suggests that the primary factor in their inability to win was Discord, rather than Tirek. And it's already been well established that the nature of Discord's magic makes it stupidly OP, even if the battle with Twilight and Tirek suggests that it may be less than their combined might in terms of raw power. Him being able to defeat them has always been a thing.
Except when, again, the four alicorns were shown to possess enough raw power to stalemate the combined raw power of Discord, Tirek, and large portions of the Equestrian population (including a minimum of dozens of unicorns). We have no reason to believe her power would change between the human world and Equestria, because her power was being drawn from Equestria, with no evidence suggesting that being in an alternate world in any way reduced the power drawn from their own. And we can certainly say, based on what is actually shown, it's nothing compared to the kind of power output or skill set that they've dealt with before.
The problem with saying that it "treats her as a threat" is that a series treating someone as though they were a threat doesn't really hold much weight when that character fails to live up to that threat, and we've seen the characters deal with the same (or even greater) threats even without resorting to magical rainbow beams. This is even more problematic in a universe that's as horribly inconsistent with its characters' displays of power as FiM is. If the universe was at least consistent in how powerful it depicted its characters, then the other characters treating someone as a threat would be more reliable as a basis. When a universe seems to play fast and loose with its characters' power tiers depending on how the writers want the story to play out at any given moment, simply treating a character as a threat without actually showing them being the threat (such as having a magic-wielding character easily wreck things in a world without magic, but immediately fall to "Friendship Power!" before we can get any direct comparison between them and other magic wielders), simply acting as though they're a threat doesn't mean much.
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Pfft. Even without the story context as a clue, I'd say "Because you're Krickis" is probably enough to hint at it.
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Oh trust me, this story is just starting to get intense
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That is a fair point, honestly
7821546 My point in bringing up Nightmare Moon was that she and Celestia were easily able to destroy a castle before the Elements were at all involved, and to more or less shrug off hits of that same power. Quite a bit more than unicorns have been shown doing.
As for the rest of your comment, I’ll definitely agree that the wedding doesn’t do Celestia any favors. Maybe she felt that Luna would be able to drive them off and doesn't want to risk hurting any of the gathered guests (or driving Chrysalis to hurt any of the ponies she’s captured), but that’s stretching things about as much as pinning Nightmare Moon’s return on Twilight -- though on that topic, the wedding doesn't actually require Twilight’s involvement beyond giving Cadance and Shining Armor a good reason to have been around each other frequently, and Chrysalis could have invaded under some other pretense anyway.
You do bring up a good point with Starlight vs Twilight, but remember that Twi’s probably not been an alicorn for more than a year and, if size and (especially) mane etherality are any indication, is still quite a ways from her full power. Even if the alicorns don’t inherently have a higher “power limit” than unicorns, the Princesses have had at least centuries to practice and can probably wield that power better than most unicorns who haven’t spent their entire lives dueling (even if the alicorns are rusty at the time of the show).
Sombra does seem to offer a good yardstick for estimating their power: the Princesses are apparently not so much stronger than him that they’re comfortable fighting him directly, but they aren’t so much weaker that he could do the same. Comparing his crystal-growing to Rarity and Trixie’s conjuration and transfiguration, I get the feeling that he’s still a bit (but not too much more than a bit) more powerful than they were, and neither are particularly strong mages outside their preferred domains. Even if we assume that the corrupted crown isn’t any more of a boost than the book or the amulet, that still probably puts the demonic Sunset at Sombra’s level, given how much stronger she is unassisted, and so around that of the Princesses.
As for technique, it would definitely be nice to see pegasi earth ponies get in more than slap fights, but somehow I doubt the show’s going to oblige.
The lasers, shields, and teleports, though, seem to be the equivalent of the swordfighting any nobleman would have learned in case he ever wound up in a duel. (It just so happens that almost every time we see anypony with unicorn magic fighting, they’re either one-on-one or using shields. I do like to think that Twilight’s gatling spells against the changelings were, despite Pinkie’s involvement, closer to what actual battlefield techniques entail.) Twilight may not have any true combat experience but, under the above assumption, she would have learned the theory and (knowing her and who her mentor and brother are) put in quite a bit of practice, so even without having needed to fight for her life before, she’s much less green a duelist against Tirek than the average non-noble unicorn would be. And don’t forget that the standstill was after dueling him with the full, combined power of four alicorns. Any single alicorn, or even any two, almost certainly wouldn't have stood a chance. Still doesn't say much for their power (although Tirek had admittedly drained who knows how many cityfulls of magic), but in a different way than I feel you’re talking about.
Given how many assumptions we need to make to get to this point, it's definitely hard to say anything definite, but it does seem like Sunset would have posed a challenge for the Princesses without the Elements to fall back on, even before figuring in their reluctance to harm her army.
7821764 I scanned through your post after finishing mine, and since I mostly agree with it, I'll say that there's a few points above that might be relevant to your arguments, but I'll respond in more detail after reading yours more closely.
7821764 While agree that, in principle, we can't dismiss any of the major events simply due to the Mane Six not finding each other, we also should be careful to avoid saying that anything will always happen. In the specific case of the wedding (and taking the reasonable step of ignoring the comics), there's nothing saying that Cadance and Shining Armor will always even meet, much less fall in love: Cadance may have only been taking care of Twilight because of the filly's connection to Celestia, or the Princess may have had her focus on learning realm administration after Twi didn't show some sign of being a Bearer; there's too many factors that may have an effect. Something happening in one alternate timeline doesn't even guarantee that it happens in them all -- Nightmare Moon was presumably defeated somehow before we see Celestia leading her forces against Sombra, but (barring conspiracy theories about Twi just arriving at different points along a single timeline), she certainly doesn't seem to have any worries about being overthrown when Twilight talks to her directly.
...And a good point to you as well on Starlight vs Twilight. At the same time, and I can't check the episode now so I could easily be wrong, wasn't one of the timelines set off because the two dueled long enough to distract the racers, and wasn't Twilight panting by the end of that? It might not be the best comparison of the two, but Starlight was able to fend off Twilight (levitating herself the entire time!) so she's not an order of magnitude weaker than Twi or anything -- I, at least, was just taking that to show ascension doesn't come with an inherent boost in power.
I think there's a difference in saying that the Princesses are comparatively god tier and that they are nigh-omnipotently god tier and you two are using different definitions of the shortened phrase. That said, Vena1, mind giving a very rough estimate of how powerful you see the Princesses being? From your description of the Tirek fight, it seems like you put them pretty high up there, but given that, why would Celestia wind up mobalizing her entire country rather than fighting Sombra directly? Is he also that powerful? I will admit that cuts the other way though, as if the alicorns are closer to where Blazeblast4 and I put them, how would Twi be able to stand against Tirek and the might of most of Equestria? The best answer I have is that a decent portion of the power might have been expended in growing to and maintaining his size, and that Twilight did a lot of dodging at the beginning of the fight.
Also, when you bring up that Discord might not be scary because of how much power he has but because of how he uses it, don't forget that Tirek was using it just like any other magic and not taking advantage of its chaotic nature, whether because his size made him just that dumb or because he doesn't gain his victims' skills along with their magic.
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First detail I'd like to address is Twilight's fighting ability. From the way she acts during the Tirek and Starlight fights (in the season 5 premier, finale, and the little spar they had in season 6), Twilight is not trained (maybe she knows theory, but she has no practice). She adapts quickly and learns from her opponent, but never really fights well. She is terrible on the offensive and does okay defensively because she can react quickly and no one tries anything more complex than direct attacks, teleports, and shields. No real misdirection, predicting your opponent, regards for positioning, following up attacks, or anything of the sort. Sure she great magically, but she has no technique for actual combat.
Anyways, onto the important points. The main arguments against every villain happening in the alternate timelines are the lack of any timeline with more than one villain (especially when Flim and Flam take over one), that the slight change in how the rainboom is stopped affects which villain is on top (how does slowing Rainbow Dash one way lead to Sombra and another lead to Chrysalis?), and the lack of certain details (mainly, where are Cadence, Shining Armor, and the plundervines during all the timelines?). Twilight, Cadence, and Shining Armor were all close, so Twilight not becoming Celestia's student could very strongly effect Cadence and Shining Armor's relationship (the season 2 finale strongly implied they didn't start dating until after Twilight stopped seeing them both), which could very well lead to no wedding, and we don't know what brought back the Crystal Empire (it could very well be tied to Cadence). Also, there is no way to fight villain Discord without the elements, so he couldn't have escaped in each timeline.
The Tirek versus Twilight fight is a horrible example for how powerful the characters are mainly because it was complete BS in every way (it was literally just fanservice the same way the mass fight in the season two finale was, a huge battle that amounts to absolutely nothing). First, Tirek got Discord's magic. There are two problems with that. The first is simply how? Unless you go with the headcanon that he manipulated the situation for Twilight to get the final key (which is contradicted by his other episodes), there should have been no way for him to do that. The second is that Discord alone is powerful enough to completely and utterly beat at the very least Celestia and Luna without the elements, yet Tirek barely got a boost from it (or Twilight's other friends who have BS powers that are magic based if the season 5 premier is anything to go on. Seriously, Rainbow Dash was born fast enough to recreate a legendary technique that no other pegasus has done for centuries as a child and Pinkie has all her powers). If Tirek actually got all the power he absorbed, he should have been much more powerful than he was. Discord alone was much more powerful.
The biggest issue here though, is that the canon is inconsistent as heck. The show has so many retcons, fluctuating personalities and power levels, and Deus Ex Machinas that make genuinely comparing power is impossible. Alicorns are made up as they go (Luna got retconned into speaking old English, got dream walking powers well after she was back, and hasn't participated in a single Equestria ending event, Cadence was a complete unknown to everyone, including Rarity, before the wedding, apparently Flurry Heart was the first alicorn born as one, and so on. Seriously, I feel like I'm playing Kingdom Hearts here) and widely fluctuate in power and competence. You'd think that after the wedding they'd take larger precautions, but then they get kidnapped by vines, then again by changelings (though all alicorns, the mane 5, Spike, and Shining Armor all getting kidnapped at once, from separate locations, when the Crystal Heart reveals changelings...). Celestia went down in one hit against Chrysalis and Nightmare Moon well. The elements of harmony apparently came form a tree that need them back because vines, but also was able to give the mane 6 random fix everything super forms and a castle with a magic map to guide to plot. Doesn't help that Flurry Heart shoots lasers more powerful than anyone besides Tirek or Twilight have ever used.
Then again, magic also works however the heck the writer wants it to. Twilight can transfigure life, reverse gravity, teleport, time travel (only once and forces a timeloop, but the same spell can be altered to rewrite history with the combination of a map from a castle grown from a tree), and Trixie with the alicorn amulet could do even more. Then season 5 gave Starlight the ability to strip cutie marks, and season six added a bunch of new spells while again reworking the rules. Then there's also all the random dark magic, which seems to work however it wants to, and things like the Power Ponies comic and the elements/tree of harmony. Plus, a bunch of random crap can negate magic, whether it's poison joke, Discord, Sombra's crystals, Tirek, Starlight's cutie mark stripping, and the changeling throne. Some episodes like Magic Duel and Lesson Zero have magic as an incredible power that can do almost anything, while others have Twilight forgetting she can teleport and barely be able to do anything with magic. She can casually rewrite biology, lift an Ursa Minor, and catch Rainbow Dash, but can't do anything to Timberwolves or lift another pony in others (then again, she also believes children's stories like the Nightmare Moon story, but wouldn't even consider reading Supernaturals based on its title alone). Discord can do whatever he wants whenever he wants, except when he would be useful towards a bigger problem. Same with Pinkie. Seriously, the only time magic has had any consistency in the series was in the Equestria Girls movies...
Anyways, as much as I'd love to continue this, I'm going to call it a night before this gets out of hand. Don't want to turn the entire front page of the comments a debate on whether demon Sunset's plan had any merit and the powerlevels of the characters. It was fun, have a goodnight.
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So I wasn't really planning on jumping in here (although I've been stalking y'all all day, and have been loving it), but I have an answer to this that I don't see mentioned too much:
I don't think she could. I don't think anyone in this show could. But I don't think Tirek got 100% of the power he drained. I think the magic goes through a conversion process (which I'll come back to momentarily) which drains some of it. I wouldn't hazard to guess how much of the magic he actually gets, but it's reminiscent of the attack leech life from Pokemon to me (or similar attacks from other games). The user recovers half as much HP as the victim loses from the attack. Even a small fraction from as many victims Tirek has would be incredibly significant, although certainly less than the combined might of nearly all of Equestria.
As for why I think it's a conversion, it's because of what you said about Discord's magic. Discord is ludicrously powerful, in part because of the chaotic nature of his magic. So why didn't Tirek use it? I don't think he can. Magic is magic, and many (if not all) species in Equestria have it. But we've also seen that there are different types of magic (pegasi can cloud walk while other ponies can't, and Zecora gave Twilight a potion that "only responds to alicorn magic". I'm sure there are dozens of other examples as well). Tirek isn't a draconequus, nor is he a pony. When he absorbed their magic, it had to be converted to centaur (or whatever the fuck) magic. If we put all of Equestria on a 1-10 scale, most ponies are probably a 3-4, inherently more magical ponies like Starlight and Pinkie are maybe a 8, Twi and Cadance I'd put at 9, Luna and Celestia 10s, and Discord is at least a 12 with his rule-breaking self. So when the conversion process happens, Tirek does get a lot more magic from Discord than anyone else, but he A) doesn't get Discord's abilities, and ) doesn't get the full power boost.
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The problem with the "We can't say these events happened happened in all the timelines" argument is that it requires creating entirely new scenarios based purely on assumption and guesswork, while the "These major events that we can confirm were not a direct result of the changes presented in the show still happened" argument requires only that we not make new scenarios, and instead work on the assumption that the undefined circumstances leading to those events were unchanged.
The alternate timelines confirm a grand total of one deviation: The Mane Six don't achieve their cutie marks, and therefore do not meet and become the Element Bearers. That these characters still show up in the alternate timelines makes it abundantly clear that the Mane Six achieving their cutie marks and meeting in Ponyville had nothing to do with these villains arising, or those villains would not have arisen in any of the timelines since something that was required for their appearance would be absent. Having ruled out the Mane Six's involvement in them making their moves, we cannot attribute that change to the villains making or enacting their plans. We can attribute their victories to the Mane Six being absent, but not their attempts to take over and/or destroy Equestria beginning.
We have no real basis for any other changes to have occurred save for those that are directly tied to this event. For instance, we can reasonably make the assumption that Pinkie Pie didn't leave the rock farm, since her leaving the rock farm was a direct result of the event that was changed. On the other hand, claiming that the wedding would not have occurred despite the fact that there is nothing in the series that can confirm their relationship (and wedding) was a direct result of that event requires fabricating an entirely new scenario based purely assumptions and guesswork. So we can either make the single assumption that the undefined circumstances that caused these villains to appear (which we can confirm are unrelated to the event that led to the altered timeline) still occurred, or we can fabricate numerous new circumstances trying to justify why those villains wouldn't appear based on assumptions, guesswork, and personal opinions about what those undefined circumstances were and why they changed.
TL;DR Version: Without any real basis for circumstances that we haven't seen changing, and the one event that we know changed being depicted as unrelated to those circumstances, saying that the unrelated circumstances didn't change fits with what information has been confirmed with far less hassle than trying to create entirely new circumstances and scenarios derived largely from speculation and assumption with a basis that's shaky at best. If we were discussing our personal headcanon, I'd love to hear some of those scenarios and explanations for the "what if" aspects of the timelines. But when discussing what is most likely to have happened based on what information we actually know, the simpler solution with the least fabrication is the one that I'm inclined to follow.
Indeed she was. Which, I would like to note, also happened after she had to run from (and briefly exchanged blows with) the changelings in Chrysalis' timeline. She then followed by her fleeing from the Timberwolves after displaying that she was getting tired, only to suddenly be capable of escaping Nightmare Moon and turning Starlight's own spell against her as soon as she reappeared in the past. So even ignoring the psychological and emotional stress that she was going through, she also dealt with at least a bit of physical stress immediately prior to fighting Starlight, and was recovered enough to go right back on the offensive after her brief reprieve while talking with Nightmare Moon. Starlight, on the other hand, gave up on physical/magical confrontations after one bout, and without having any other physically or psychologically/emotionally stressful tasks between those bouts.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Twilight is leagues beyond Starlight. However, people who use that to say that Starlight is OP or Twilight gets horribly nerfed often seem to ignore that one of them was going through a crapton of conflicts (internal and external), while the other one was basically sitting around waiting for her opponent to use the spell and show up again. And the latter was still the one who ended up giving up on fighting in favor of winning in other ways. Which actually falls in line pretty well with what we saw when Celestia faced Chrysalis and ended up being defeated (albeit to even Chrysalis' surprise, given that she seemed shocked at getting so much power from Shining's love) and her battle with Nightmare Moon - even when overpowered or injured, they have a remarkable recovery rate.
Ah, then I suppose that's just a case of referring to different meanings for the terminology. When I talk about the Princesses being "god tier" I'm referring more to the kind of thing you see with gods/goddesses in classical mythology and a lot of fiction - very powerful entities who are clearly beyond the norm, but still very much mortal and fallible. If he's referring to the omnipotent or near-omnipotent type of gods, then yeah, I completely agree that they're not anywhere near that level even on their best days.
As for where I place the princesses, personally I don't think that there are any logical power tiers in MLP save that alicorns possess the traits of all three pony races and Discord would be horrifyingly OP if he didn't have a self-defeating personality, because the writers honestly don't give even the slightest of craps about consistency in power scaling. However, if I have to justify it in-universe...here we go. Also, note that this will use a lot of assumption, so If I was discussing this as anything more than my personal headcanon, I would likely apply the same complaints here that I made about the alternate timelines earlier:
In terms of raw magical power, their combined capacity clearly outclasses basically everything we've seen in the series, given what it was able to match when Twilight confronted Tirek. However, their power being combined has certain advantages that they wouldn't as individuals. Think of it kind of like a high-pressure fire hose used by emergency response teams when compared to several regular garden hoses. Even if they're all drawing from a source that has the same amount of water, that single fire hose will be able to put out far more force and focus all of that force on a single target, while you'll never get the same level of pressure and focus from the garden hoses no matter how close together you put them. I view Twilight vs Tirek in much the same way - it wasn't just the combined raw power, but the combined raw power being flung around at once from a single source at a single target. Not fractions of that power being used to a lesser degree by individuals.
So how do I think that fares when we're actually talking about them as individuals? I'd still certainly place them well beyond the typical unicorn. Trixie wasn't able to match Twilight without a powerful magical artifact, and even basically admits as much in later seasons. Moondancer was completely baffled by Twilight managing to insert herself into a book. Rarity, while far more powerful when being controlled/empowered by a dark artifact, typically excels at her specialization while showing no particularly impressive feats when using her magic in any other way.
These are all unicorns who are either extremely studious or extremely skilled at their art, but it's pretty clear that none of them would really be able to hold their own against the kind of things that we've seen Twilight, Luna, Celestia, or even Cadance fling around without significant boosts to their power, such as with the aritfacts we see Trixie and Rarity use. Likewise, whether through an increased natural ability or a combination of magic and natural resistance, they also seem to possess slightly superior traits when it comes to the other races that they represent. As I mentioned before, we see this when Celestia and Luna spend the better part of their visit to the Crystal Empire right in the middle of the storm (and even visibly icing over) without giving way, while a weather pony like Rainbow was barely able to last a matter of minutes before being grounded. Though again, whether this is simply an extension of their pegasus traits being pushed beyond the norm or a result of the combination of pegasus, earth pony, and unicorn traits working in tandem is hard to say.
However, being far and above the average unicorn doesn't mean that they're impossible to meet, at least briefly. As I mentioned with Starlight, we do see both of them begin to tire when she's fighting Twilight, but Twilight recovers after a brief respite while Starlight - despite having the same respite - avoids continuing a direct confrontation. So at the very least, even if someone can match them to the point of tiring them, it's going to be difficult to match their recovery rate. In the case of Sombra, and why Celestia wasn't able to simply overcome him mobilized her armies instead, I attribute it to two main factors: First, even if she's stronger than the average pony (or even a talented individual like Sombra), she'd still be trying to face Sombra while having his army come at her from all sides. Second, she suffers from the same flaw that makes me give some credit to Sunset's plan, in that most of Sombra's army isn't composed of willing soldiers. They're mostly innocent crystal ponies forced into service. And just as I imagine she would hesitate to hurt innocent humans coming through, I imagine she would be working against her own nature in trying to hurt them, especially if it was her and her alone against an army.
So that's about how I classify them. Far above the average pony, but not completely above reach, and certainly not impossible to defeat when faced with an abnormally powerful unicorn with both the means and drive to hurt that most of our heroes simply don't have. And the unicorns who actually have the potential for that kind of power are extremely few and far between.
Given that his immediate reaction to receiving the alicorns' powers was to start blasting trees and nothing else, I'm inclined to go with "dumb" as the answer to that one.
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Right there with you. Thanks for taking the time to talk about it, and especially for keeping it civil. I've seen more than a few "power level" debates turn into nothing but shit-slinging matches, so it's always nice to be able to disagree and debate on this kind of thing without seeing it end with everyone losing their damn minds.
7822145 Good spot with Twilight's fighting style. Guess it's not as typical as I was making it, then, and more likely something Twi found in a book once. Makes sense given the empasis on harmony. And I completely agree with that entire thing on canon and its problems with magic. Though I will fight for the Hearths' Warming play being the story of Celestia, Luna, and the Elements' other original Bearers' ascension. Doesn't mean it isn't still fun to try to beat it all into line!
Have a nice night!
7822180 First of all, thanks so much for putting up with this much discussion on topics that lost the last bit of relevance to the actual (amazing!) story ridiculously far up the page! I've really enjoyed taking part, and I'm glad it's been as much fun to watch.
As for the actual content of your post, that's essentially what I was trying to get across, but worded much more clearly than I could have done (and Leach Life is a great analogy). I do wonder how much of the different races' abilities are just different ways of manipulating the same underlying power, but I am still a firm believer that there are different forms of magic in Equestria. (My headcanon for the changelings' fall involves Sombra's takeover of the Crystal Empire destablizing the global field of emotion magic, and my most recent chapter includes a character describing Fluttershy's connection to animals as "earth pony magic".) Either way, that does definitely seem to be the only way to explain Tirek without resorting to granting the alicorns divinity or an equivalent amount of power. Might just be the part of me that finds ever-escalating power levels unsatisfying, but... well, I don't find that answer satisfying.
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I'd normally agree without any hesitation, but in this case I'm a bit hung up on the fact that we see so many different ways the world as we know it ended. As I see it (and please do correct me if you have something else), there are three ways to make sense of the relationship between the race and the rest of the timeline:
(1) The way Starlight stopped the race has a small enough effect to not matter, and the differences between the timelines are due to (essentially) random chance. This sounds to me like what you're arguing for, where everything happens as it did in the show, until the Elements' absence is unable to be compensated for, and the point at which that occurs determines the villian who winds up running the place.
(2) The way Starlight stopped the race has a small enough effect to not matter, but more than one villain winds up ruling Equestria (later one(s) overthrowing the earlier). Twilight may have visited the same timeline more than once. There are enough contradictions in the primary alternate timelines to make this unlikely on a broad scale (AJ only knows of Rarity in the Sombra timeline so Pinkie probably stayed on the farm and the pegasi in Cloudsdale -- or, at least, weren't in Ponyville -- until the war called them away, but it's Pinkie and Fluttershy who find Twilight in the Changeling timeline, so they were somewhere close enough to find Zecora after the invasion), but it might be more plausable on a smaller scale (say, Flim and Flam were prepping the land for the industrialization needed to fight Sombra) and could be a fun puzzle to try to piece together.
(3) The way Starlight stopped the race has a large enough effect that it (for whatever want-of-a-horseshoe-type reason) has an effect on the future villains. The wedding is probably the most fragile due to Twilight being a major bridge between Shining Armor and Cadance, but if Fluttershy and Hoops' newfound friendship winds up leading to some opening Chrysalis is able to exploit instead, she might wind up more successful than she was in any other timeline. This is just as handwavy as (2), but slightly more justifiable.
I'd argue that the actual cause-and-effect is probably some complicated mix of all three: as I said, I'm with you that (1) is the most likely out-of-context, but I don't like dismissing such a variety of effects (it's not just "does Celestia beat Nightmare Moon or not?") as we see purely to randomness; I don't see any other way to explain the different outcomes given a single change without any true, lasting relevance.
Moreover, I feel like it's less likely that the chain of events leading to each future can branch so drastically without having some effect on the other major events. Yeah, everything we've seen implies Sombra's return is independent of everything else, but we have no idea what it would take to fight off Nightmare Moon without the Elements; Shining Armor could be killed protecting Celestia just as easily as he could end up being completely unharmed, and saying that the wedding always happens is the same as saying that Shining never dies. We know the initial state (no Mane Six) and we know the general shape of the final state, but we don't know enough to describe the path between the two.
Oh, most definitely. I didn't mean to imply that it was in any means a fair fight, just that it's not unfair because Twilight gained minor-deity-level powers along with her wings or anything. We can't draw anything from it beyond the fact that a tired (though still reasonably capable) alicorn doesn't drastically overpower a fresh unicorn mage.
I do find it interesting, though, that Starlight seems to mean to live out her life normally from the time of the race. Could definitely set up her cult around future-telling until the timeline got too different. Not a world-shattering insight, but interesting.
Definitely wasn't expecting anything any more rigorous, just thought it would be helpful (and fun) to know where were all coming from.
To expand further on the hose analogy (I see it in roughly the same way), each pump might need some amount of water in its workings, so even if the source seemed to be drained by the same amount, the multiple pumps feeding the garden hoses would have collectively reserved more water than the single one for the fire hose, and so the actual output would have been lower. Basically, by concentrating all their power in Twilight, she was able to use more than the alicorns would have individually because their bodies would have saved some in reserve.
I largely agree with the rest of your analysis, though with added emphasis that the "far beyond" isn't innate -- even if Twilight knew the same weather spells as the Princesses, she still wouldn't be able to last as long simply because she doesn't have the centuries of experience and exercise under her wings. At the same time, I don't put alicorns so far ahead that the greatest mages (Starswirl, maybe Granny Smith a decade or so ago) who spend their lives devoted to their magic wouldn't be able to get close to whatever aspect of an alicorn's full power they share. Starswirl probably couldn't rase the sun as effortlessly as Celestia, but I do personally think he'd be able to do so without anypony or anything else helping. Maybe not more than once every month or so, but it would still be within his power. Everypony else needs one of the artifacts to get anywhere near.
It's kind of hard to argue that doesn't come into play, isn't it?
I do have to go with "both" under Krickis's conversion explanation, though.
May I say that I found Tirek's progression disappointing? "'Is he friend or is he foe?' the pony wonders. I assure you: I am no friend." is still my favorite line of the entire show. And then he just got all stompy after that.
7822285 I completely agree; big thanks to both of you! This has been a very enjoyable evening, and that's completely due to the insight and rationality y'all have shared. Always nice to find people with different ideas who are, A, willing to explore those differences and, B, are willing to let people keep their different ideas anyway.
Now, I'm going to head off to sleep as well and give my thumbs a chance to rest. Phones are not the best for essays like this, but my computer's over two hours away and nobody around here had a keyboard they weren't using. Good night y'all!
That did not turn out well.
What time on Mondays do you normally upload the next chapter?
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That's, uh, that's kinda my thing
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2 am Eastern Standard Time (my time zone). So I'll update about an hour and a half after this reply. I tend to be very punctual, with an alarm set to make sure I do it on time lol
idk if you're at all interested in why, but I like explaining things so I'm gonna anyway (lol feel free to skip this if you're not interested though). I'm a bit fixated on knowing whatever statistics about my stories that I can. It's not that I have some sort of goal to reach with view counts or anything, I just love having the accurate day to day view stats. I used to update right at midnight EST, and I would check back with the view stats on the next day to see how many people viewed the story, and how the stats compared to other update days. But I kept noticing a bizarre trend: Without fail, the day before an update always received a small spike in its views compared to other non-update days. Once or twice could be a small fluke, but the consistency was just odd. Turns out, it was because Fimfiction treated all the views from the first few hours as if they were from the day before (presumably basing the view count on its own timezone), and so anyone checking the chapter right when it was posted would be skewing the stats. I played around with the update time for a few weeks and deduced that 2 am EST seems to be midnight by Fimfiction's time, and now when I update right at 2 I get perfectly accurate stats of how many people view the story on a particular update day. Not that it really matters, but it does make me feel better when I go looking into the view counts
La historia va perdiendo significado y se aparta del camino.
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Well, I am sorry you feel that way. But in a fic dedicated to explaining how Sunset became the person she was in the first movie, I don't really see how this is losing meaning. This chapter in particular marks a significant change for Sunset growing into the person she'll be.
Edit:
I was using Google to translate your comment, which gave me the translation: "The story is losing its meaning and gets out of the way", but then my girlfriend (who is fluent in Spanish) told me that its "History is losing its meaning". So if that's what you meant, then you're completely right
Ah, so Sunset's finally developing into the she-demon that she'll be for Equestria Girls. It's deliciously twisted in a way to see a character grow, just happening to be that she grows wrong, and in a far better environment than Equestria was for Sunset.
Not too surprised about Crystal Clear. The only thing I can think of is that it's very, very uncommon for a person to have such a high level of delusion as to be able to create such an extensive backstory to their delusion. Suppose we had a human in Equestria who ponies didn't believe was from Equestria, only for him to go through and explain the history of the United States, the two World Wars, the many countries of southeast Asia and their geopolitical spats, the Abrahamic religions and how they grew and developed sects and successors, famous writers and poets, the space race, etc.
At some point, the amount of backstory the human has 'created' in his head is too much for a delusion.
7863106 If you're a massive enough history buff sure, except some people can write entire universes. Mathematics? Only if everything works the same and even then you just might be a savant. There's always a way to explain away absolutely anything. And that's sort of scary, if you think about it.
Back in Equestria:
Celestia sat down in her private chambers drinking tea, before she suddenly did a spit-take.
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Much to the dismay of the royal maid, who's just wondering why the hell she's cleaning tea out of Celestia's carpet again
Oh my! With Sunset acting like this, things are certainly getting interesting...
Well that shoe dropped earlier then I thought.
Bad sunset is so good I almost don’t want her reformed.
But without a reformation you wouldn’t get rainbow rocks which would suck.
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You and I both. Sunset being a bitch made this story so fun to write, and I definitely miss working on it
I love how u describe her parents its what i all ways imagined them to be.
Hmm. This is well written, but in situations like this I always feel a little cheated when there is no evidence present. Something a little more than a five year old able to calculate, read, and reason at a late teenage level.
I just feel that given they use magic rather than science they should know things we don't. And that such knowledge would be hard to dismiss.
I know its not where this story is going, but despite enjoying the story, it still bothers me a little.
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Whoops, I thought I replied to this when ou first posted it
I really loved fleshing out her parents here. There’s more of them to come in this story if you haven’t read that far into it by now (sorry for the late reply, btw), and I hope you’ll continue to enjoy them and the rest of the story
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I’m sorry to hear you’re disappointed in anything, but I’m afraid I can’t really agree with your point here. Quite the contrary, I think such information would be exceedingly easy to dismiss. Any information that Sunset knows that we don’t isn’t going to be viewed as revelationary, it’s going to be viewed as incorrect or made up. Unless she’s able to somehow prove she’s correct, which would be difficult to impossible since in this world any principals based on magic aren’t correct.
Howdy, fellow rabbit
Anyway, glad you’re still enjoying the story for what it is
Now there's the Sunset we know and love.
I'm loving this story so far. I like how professional Crystal and Dusk have been, they're acting much like I'd expect real psychologists to act. Crystal's handling of Sunset's "psychosis" is especially good. And Sunset's parents here are pretty much exactly what I expected, unfortunately.