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Celestia and Luna have lived long and suffered greatly. Luna, still insecure in her newfound grace, is anxious to secure herself against any further suffering. She sees in Twilight Sparkle (and in many others) the roots of ten thousand tragedies. Celestia proposes a wager.
A very loose retelling of the Book of Job.
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Oh fuck.
~Skeeter The Lurker
I'll read it, but I cannot see this going well or pleasantly for Twilight, considering what the Book of Job tells.
...Having read this, I foresee two serious issues.
One, I do not honestly believe Celestia would agree to this, and she would punish Luna for doing it anyway.
Two...
Twilight considers Celestia and Luna her friends, and trusts them absolutely, but a linchpin of that trust is that it has to be mutual. By doing what she proposes, Luna shows that it is not, and by allowing it, Celestia does likewise.
In seeking to assure her loyalty, it is very likely Celestia and Luna will lose it. She will be loyal to the Crowns, not to the heads upon which they rest. To the Princesses of Sun and Moon, but not to Celestia and Luna.
Luna is being very unreasonable here, and I hope Twilight, while remaining loyal, tears a strip off both of them for this kind of duplicity and whatever torment Luna unleashes.
Note that I believe she should remain loyal, as I think she would. That said, a loyal servant can still shout at you.
As to Celestia? She berated Luna about telling Twilight her part being the right thing. Will she do likewise?
7314767 Job comes out on top of you'll recall.
Having read the book of Job, I can honestly say that this is NOT going to end well for Twilight.
7314788 I must have read a different Job than you guys.... Or perhaps we differ on what that ending feels like.
But yes. A storm brews
I am pretty sure this is going to be quite painful to read. But I will stick with it because in the end, Job was returned to his former glory.
Luna's feelings about Twilight in this story reminds me of Noonday's feelings about her in Ageless:
“She is neurotic mess given the world on a silver plate, offered apotheosis in return for trinkets! The old failures will simply be multiplied in her.”
7314802 This, "Esoteric", Ageless, and "Celestia Isn't Real" all came from a single story idea I was calling Monophysite. Basically, it was supposed to be Twilight questioning to what extent she could separate Celestia from her office/power and to what extent she could ever really say she knew her. It was Twilestia but not super passionate. More contemplative.
Instead, I wrote like four stories.
7314767
Celestia called Luna out on exactly this, too. But in her attempts to avoid releasing her wrath on her sister, she ended up capitulating. Because she's a coward.
7314836 Basically. She had only sufficient nerve to tell Luna she would not tolerate physical harm, and to basically imply Luna is a brute when she wants to be.
7314779 He does, but he also praises God unconditionally. Luna is not testing Twilight's friendship here, but her loyalty. I am saying that will remain unshaken, that Twilight will remain loyal and steadfast.
I am also saying she is not above turning around and ripping Luna (and Celestia) a few creatively placed new holes when she is told what has been done to her, and why.
I have another thought on this, but will send it to you privately.
I have read Job, and I'm excited for Twilight
Teaching Twilight how to face failure. Interesting premise!
Oh, how I hope to see both Luna and Celestia to come off for the worse by the time this ends, having lost something precious and irreplaceable for their crimes.
You, mare of Darkness, the only alicorn to have ever betrayed her country and her subjects, dare to accuse another of treason and make them stand trial for no crimes they have done, only to assuage the feelings of inadequacy and doubt born from your own inner weakness and demons? The one whose actions are the sole reason you are even allowed to walk this earth again?
And you, mare of the Day, a meek coward who would step aside and let injustice be done upon those whom you are sworn to protect and whom consider you friend and family? A ruler without courage to uphold neither justice nor fairness, who would let the innocent and the fair to fall to the wayside only to avoid confronting your sister's darkest whims?
I spit upon you both, traitors and cowards alike, fit neither to rule nor judge. Perhaps the nobles and soldiers are right to grumble, if these are the colors you hide behind your masks, the fleeting glimpses of which they have caught. Fie on you both!
Have your petty trials and witch hunts. Fill your insecurities with pain and demons of your own making. Judge an innocent for no crime she has ever done - and I hope to see you judged harshly in turn, for the real crimes and wrongdoings that you are about to commit, to see justice fall upon you with neither mercy nor remorse, for you are deserving of neither.
---
So - yeah. Luna is a disgusting individual for suggesting something like this, and Celestia is a thrice-damned coward for allowing this to happen, and from where I stand both have just demonstrated they are unfit to rule or to hold any position of authority over another.
I imagine Twilight will still, sadly, remain loyal to the crown after all is said and done, even though neither sister is deserving of her loyalty. Though I do hope they lose something precious and irreplaceable for this disgusting act they are about to commit- friendship, trust and familiarity, and not just from Twilight but her friends and family as well. Along with whatever strips of their worthless, cowardly hides Twilight and Cadence see fit to strip off. They overstep their bounds against a fellow sovereign, and they should be made to face the full consequences for their actions, and whatever suffering they inflict upon an innocent they should be forced to suffer threefold in return.
What Elements would do to a potentially-evil Twilight? Ha, I wonder what they would do to the present you.
I am looking towards Luna's petty trials, and I imagine, Twilight prevailing over them and proving herself the better mare of the three of them. But what will be the real highlight of this, the one thing I'll look towards the most - the consequences and repercussions Luna and Celestia will have to pay for their treachery and cowardice.
Fantastic interpretation of the princesses. They feel alien and powerful without resorting to the far too common fallback "they are gods"
7314984 Less teaching her to face failure, and more seeing if her loyalty remains when she fails utterly.
7314998 I can basically get aboard with this, and agree about Luna especially.
I look to see Twilight remain loyal to Equestria, but to have some very harsh words for Celestia and Luna.
Nor can Luna hide what she has done, for while Celestia did not ask for it, she included it in her oath that having tormented Twilight each of three nights in her dreams, she would go to her at the end, and reveal herself, her activities, and her intentions.
I do not expect Luna will enjoy that meeting when it occurs.
This Celestia is cowardly. Which is not part of Celestia's character if we use even the lightest touch of logic when we consider what we know of Equestria. Dragons and wars and armies, diplomacy and duplicity. For a thousand years Celestia has had to deal with the sort of crap that Twilight and friends do, and worse in some ways, on her own. No near-equal sister to back her up and no Magic Peaceguffin to harmlessly whisk her enemies away. She alone was Protector of the Realm. Hell, her dog guards the gates of Tartarus, lending some credence to the idea that she populated it with enemies she defeated.
Could a coward have faced all those horrible situations and come out on top? Only by some cosmic, stupid luck. And they certainly wouldn't have held an entire nation together in the middle of it all.
7315164 That's been troubling me as well. Celestia is many things, but gutless she is not. I would imagine her true-to-character reaction as "Not only no, but Tartarus no!"
Not only would she not agree to Luna's proposal, she would likely threaten reprisals if Luna did it anyway, and likely make good on her word if Luna went ahead.
That said, if she did act as she has acted in this story, then the results predicted by myself and others are likely.
7315170
Part of what burns me is that in the majority of thought-provoking stories involving the Princesses, Celestia ends up as Luna's whipping bitch. Failing that, she's completely useless and stupid unless Luna's around to hold her hoof. Or she's some sort of antagonist. Or she's too busy being Worfed so the real star of the story can save the day. There's no way anything like i've described could have held a nation together and defended it for a thousand years. To put that to scale, America's not much older than two-hundred in the grand scheme of things. Meaning the time Celestia spent ruling alone was five times the time America's been around.
Yet she's always written as the mistake-ridden or helpless sister who's all weepy over Luna and lets herself be pushed around. Or mortals with little idea of what they claim to be professionals in out-wit her at every step. Celestia's character gets dragged through the mud a lot to make her a plot-point, NPC quest-giver, semi-villain, or relatable to people that are thick-headed and who don't like considering powerful, intelligent, and wise beings who are greater than themselves in stories.
It's like people are adverse to the idea of a character who is just... good, as much as they can be when they have the burden of leadership thrust on them. And who is more than equal to that task.
7315170
7315164
7314998
I'm always surprised how little sympathy princesses have gotten in my fics. I'm beginning to think I may be at fault.
In this case, there's been a fundamental misunderstanding that I'll have to fix based on people reading the ancient law/nature of things very very differently from my intention. People are reading it is a sort of thing that can just be put aside like an old promise of guideline or idea about what's proper, which yes Celestia comes off pretty bad if so. I had hoped that "nature of things" would Communicate this, but will have to be more info dump-Y about it: it's not that she won't interfere, it's that she physically can't without actually damaging reality. They have non-overlapping magisteria. There are things Luna cannot do without risking the same calamity. One of those is oath keeping, which I had hoped would get across through the geas.
Ancient law/rerum naturam/nature of things =\= bendable law or guideline that can be discarded.
7315189
Deep Magic and such is one thing, but it's more about Celestia just collapsing about it. I get that Luna was the Elements of Loyalty, Honesty, and to a smaller extent, Laughter - at least canonically. But Celestia folds so easily on something so important.
7315189 Celestia could still have been firmer in her refusals, or tried something else. She did nothing but lamely offer token resistance, and then meekly ascent with that oath.
The oath might at least have contained some limits on how traumatic the dream "trials" could be. Even that little bit would have been something of more substance.
I have sympathy for Celestia's plight in terms of her situation, and Luna for her insecurities, but that does not in any way excuse how they are acting, or how Luna intends to basically torment Twilight in her dreams.
7315186 Agreed, on basically all points. As to the time in power, we do not know how long the Royal Sisters have been in power, merely that Luna's exile was a thousand years before the main timeline.
7315193 Agreed. Yes, she is bound by a geas, but she's a clever, resourceful pony, and she just...folds.
Not sure if I want to read it, tbh.
Yet still firm enough to mention the origin of the idea for this fiction. You would definitely get different reactions if you hadn't mentioned that caveat at all; yet, you did. What are you planning for those mentioned as fore-front characters?
I'm reserving judgement until it is finished. I don't believe the conclusion is as forgone as some of the previous commentators state.
7315193 I'm genuinely confused now because frankly I thought she had done a decent job of trying to argue and was merely blindsided.
7315194 I'm honestly not sure what else she could have done, and I'm really not sure short of her throwing a fit and burning her study down what she might have done that could avoid breaking the geas and still work. If people really are seeing Celestia this way this early them honestly I probably need to scrap this entire chapter and figure out where the hell it went wrong.
7315204 The point is, beyond a short (and frankly token) argument, she didn't even try anything.
It's fine as it is. Just know that it only has a few logical conclusions as written.
7315203 I really just thought the similarities and set up would make it super obvious regardless.
7315208
Maybe...
But then you could say a lot of Mary Sue stories are the re-telling of Moses or Jesus(very loosely) and make the statement true while most of the authors might state that that was not their intention and also have that to be true. So...it makes me wonder why mention it. Why not make it an Easter Egg for readers to find?
7315204
It's probably a select few that give her a frame of reference that is mortal.
7315206
7315204
I agree with Tater. She basically raised Twilight. Molded her, shaped her, trained her, taught her. Twilight looked to Celestia as an idol, motherly-figure, and goddess all in one. Celestia in your story seems to have a feel for that, and returns at least some level of admiration and affection.
But then just sorta "Oh well, I guess there's magic that stops me from stopping you. Go ahead, just please be gentle."
She was portrayed as just... giving up, like it was easier to let Luna push her around and potentially damage their relationships with Twilight than it was to rail against her, to use wits that have kept the entire world alive and Equestria at its center for longer than any kingdom of Man that still exists.
I'm not saying it's a bad story or premise. I'm saying the main point of contention was handled in a way that seems absolutely out of character for Celestia who was Kindness, Generosity, and Magic(Friendship). Maybe less so for Luna, who was Loyalty... but also Honesty and Laughter, which she clearly no longer embodies. In short, Celestia could have been handled better and the way she was portrayed rankled me a bit as being counter to her core characteristics and bond with Twilight.
7315080
That too!
But I still mean, as Twilight has succeeded so far in her tasks and quests, having to face the trial about managing to keep it together after failure and accepting it, to come out stronger. Coping with a failure would certainly be hard for that mare, I'm sure.
7315254
I disagree. If she didn't allow Luna to go ahead there would be friction between Luna and Celestia regarding Twilight for a very long time. A thousand years without her sister is a long time and she's trying to avoid starting a rift so soon after they reunited.
And maybe Celestia does fear that what happened to her other students may be true for Twilight. Better to 'nip it in the bud' as it were.
And there is plenty of canon where Celestia doesn't interfere with Twilight's 'lessons.'
This seems like your quoting the bible.I have never read it.
Besides Twilight, has faced failure before. Lesson zero for one, But she did handle it better in what about Discord.
7315301
So instead of risk friction between her and Luna, it's better to hurt a completely innocent mare and risk a lot more than mere friction between both of them and her?
7315365
Individuals do irrational things based on emotion. Luna doesn't believe Twilight to be worthy or tempered enough for eternal Princesshood and nothing short of Luna testing her(instead of Celestia) will convince her otherwise. The friction between Luna and Celestia is like tectonic plates while the friction that would be between Luna and Twilight would be nowhere near that scale in that relative amount of time.
Also, how is complete innocence good for a ruler?
7315390
That fact that people do something does not make it good, or even excusable. The fact that people hurt, often irrepairably, their friends and family out of emotion does not make said actions reasonable or defensible. Luna is arguing against the very concept of trusting your friends, while assuming that she is being given that same trust. By her own arguments that any pony who could fall is unfit to rule, and her claim that she is much less malleable than Twilight (and thus, the conclusion that she'd have a great chance of returning to NMM if she faced great failure), she should be thrown out of office immediately.
No, the friction between Twilight and Luna/Celestia has the potential to be far worse than any friction between Celestia and Luna for this. The friction between Celestia and Luna would be there, but they would deal with it, and at some point or another, would overcome it. If Twilight is as malleable as Luna claims, then this could shatter Twilight's trust and their relationship entirely, or even turn her against the two of them (though not against Equestria). Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?
It's not, but Twilight isn't even close to having "complete innocence", nor would such a thing need to be removed by purposefully hurting her even if she did.
7315434
If Twilight is as malleable as Luna claims, then much of what you say won't matter to them in the long run. Celestia allows Luna this to prove otherwise, for the most part.
7315331 Yes, she has faced failure before. What happens to Job is...significantly more than failure. He loses very nearly everything: his wealth, his home, his friends, his family...everything. If Luna intends to test Twilight in the same manner...well. We'll see how it goes.
7315445
Twilight being malleable now (especially since Luna claims it is due to her youth) does not imply that she will be malleable later, and having Twilight deeply distrusting them is a horrible state for her to settle into. Twilight's relationship with the two of them has a much higher chance of being permanently damaged by Luna going through with this than Celestia's and Luna's relationship does by Celestia refusing to capitulate to Luna's plan.
Regardless, "she will probably recover" is never a justification for inflicting harm on someone, nor is proving a point.
Anyway, I apologize, but depending on how the conclusion of the story goes, it's possible that I will have to give out one of my extremely rare downvotes. Celestia and Luna are acting very OoC , with Luna is acting as an outright villain (planning to literally torture someone just so she can have some hypocritical peace of mind), and Celestia isn't much better by only putting up a token resistance to it. I've seen worse Celestias and Lunas, but they are almost always portrayed as actual villains there.
Unless Celestia and Luna end up facing real, long-lasting consequences (such as Twilight and the other elements of harmony no longer trusting them at all, and maybe not even seeing them as good ponies) for this, I'm going to have to give it a thumbs down.
7315254 Exactly.
7315301 When there was good cause, but there isn't here, as both she, and the author, have stated.
7315455 That sounds like a recipe for disaster for Luna. Twilight can barely stay in the same room with Discord without getting mad. Besides I'm afraid to see Twilight really mad, considering she can do the impossible when provoked. One big difference between Job story and this is Joe couldn't walk up to God or Satan's doorstep.Twilight can with princess sun but and Luna.
In short, I really want to see where this train wreck is going.I hope there is going to be a fight.
7315208 If I may add my two cents.. It feels like people are going so harsh on this because of you saying "Book of Job" which (if i'm reading into the comments correctly) is about some guy who was unfairly tested by God to see if he would stay loyal no matter what.
And that makes it seem like people are pretty much people are taking an OVERLY hostile stance against Celestia for seemingly not trying to do anything. There is a thing in every single story called Suspension of Disbelief, it feels extremely lacking in the comments section here with how much Celestia is being torn a new one when the one at fault is Luna.
Luna is able to do things against Celestia's permission and Celestia knows this. She has known her sister for millenia, and so knows that short of outright PHYSICALLY stopping her from doing something (which in this case would damage if not destroy reality itself), she is literally powerless to stop Luna from carrying out her bullshit tests.
Honestly with her making a wager she IS limiting what Luna would do to her, If Luna got her way she would have done it for weeks if not months probably, with the sheer level of paranoia she is showing over the MINUTE POSSIBILITY from a DEVOUTLY LOYAL pony such as Twilight.
So in essence I think Celestia is doing the best she can of a bad situation, could she have fought harder? Yes of course, there's always a better way to do things. But she is not omniscient, she couldn't have known Luna would be so paranoid about Twilight and so had to act quickly otherwise the situation would have spiraled out of control horrifically.
TL;DR
Celestia is trying her best to fix things without destroying the fabric of reality itself, and Luna is a paranoid brat.
EDIT: ALso people may be taking an overly hostile stance because of the Christian undertones mentioned with Book of Job.. potentially, dunno and don't really care in the end
EDIT 2: This turned from adding 2 cents to adding 2 dollars XD I did NOT mean to go on a full rant >.<
7315204
Scrap nothing. This is beautiful and I know from your other works that given the source material, you'll handle it beautifully. Don't be discouraged by people who are predisposed to join the Solar Cult.
Remember, people, that in this story there are inviolable oaths between the Sisters. Luna once bore Loyalty; if Celestia suddenly cast aside their ancient oaths, Luna would feel betrayed utterly, at the deepest level. Just as Twilight will be right to feel betrayed at Luna's lack of trust in her.
Also some people do read Job as "God is a dick and Job only repented out of exasperated resignation." This isn't quite the same, since the goal isn't to get Twilight to curse Celestia's name, but the seed of the idea is there.
Can't wait for more! When it's all done, I'll reread the Monophysite series as a whole.
7315204
She could have threatened Luna with real repercussions over this; made it clear that there will be consequences for Luna and her position as a princess if she goes through with it, and that she will be forced to answer in front of the law for any suffering, mental or physical, she inflicts upon an innocent. Or tell Luna that she will go and inform Twilight, right now, of what Luna plans to do, thus preemptively derailing the whole plot.
Celestia might be unable to stop Luna from using her dream magic to torment Twilight - much how there isn't anything anyone can really do to stop a criminal from suddenly pulling out a gun and firing upon someone - but just because the act itself is unstoppable, doesn't mean it's devoid of consequence or accountability. There is much Celestia could have done to dissuade Luna from doing this, to make it clear the cost of it would be high - but she didn't.
In plain terms - Luna is about to torment an individual. And Celestia didn't go to any real lengths to stop her. And while I can sympathize with Celestia being unwilling to come to blows with her sister - again - by that same token she has proven herself as a corrupt leader willing to turn a blind eye to justice and wrongdoing in favor of her kin. That Luna herself just proved herself unfit for any position of authority goes beyond even saying.
You set up Luna as the villain of the story - and Celestia as her somewhat disgruntled accomplice. Naturally people want to see the villain face the full consequences for their actions, especially when it's one in such an unsympathetic position as Luna is, considering she's both a hypocrite (if Twilight can't be trusted with power, then she herself isn't fit for it ten times over, given her past) and a traitor (betraying Twilight's friendship and trust).
Villains can be sympathetic, given the proper circumstances and motivation. Hypocrites and betrayers, on the other hand, are almost universally despised and don't have much in terms of redeeming qualities, where their ultimate punishment and consequences for their actions catching up with them being one of the more emotionally satisfying part of the story. And Luna is both a villain, a hypocrite and a betrayer - there is no sympathy to be had for her, only the thought of eventual satisfaction when karma catches up with her with a vengeance.
---
Personally I'm not quite sure if I will be reading this story, after this setup, unless there is a guarantee that Luna is going to face real and lasting consequences for her actions, otherwise it risks being a highly unsatisfying read, emotionally. Might just wait to see how it ends before deciding on that, to be honest :/
For me personally, what this setup has achieved is made me primarily invested not in how Twilight will handle the unjust and unfair trials that are about to be hoisted upon her, or even if she succeeds or fails, but whether the instigators of the injustice and unfairness get appropriately punished for their actions and to see them walk away carrying real consequences on their backs.
In this case, for me it's less about the journey (which would be important insofar as to establish just how much Luna will have to answer for), and more about the destination - not for Twilight, but for Luna and, to some extent, Celestia. Based upon this premise, I don't see nor emotionally perceive this story as being about Twilight and how she handles horrible things - for me its about Luna making some seriously despicable choices for questionable reasons, and wanting to see just how much she will end up having to pay for it, and whether she's capable of learning anything from it.
I see what you did there
Job, huh? This is gonna be one wild ride for Twilight 
What 7315703 said.
I think this has a great premise, I really do. The Book of Job is an interesting piece, and to twist into this setting is pretty cool. While I agree with some of the criticisms on display in the comments regarding certain characterisation, especially Celestia’s weak ‘Oh well, I guess I let this happen’. Though, I think that you'll be skilled enough to pull all the pieces together as it progresses. I really wouldn't scrap anything considering it's only the beginning, the base is really good to be throwing out before getting to the meat of the story.
I'd only be driven off the story if it ends how Job did, with basically no culpability given to the clearly guilty party. I don't think it would fit the narrative very well, especially considering Twilight is the princesses’ equal not their servant.
Twilight would have every right to claim they are both hypocrites and cowards in the context, as Twilight has shown nothing but loyalty and gratitude for everything she has done. I think it would be nice to see a potentially self-fulfilling prophecy in the end, unlike the more resigned ending to Job. In that, Twilight through being essentially set upon by Luna and this being acknowledged to by Celestia, they have eventually planted the seeds of doubt and distrust in her mind, shattering the good relationship she had with the princesses. Especially Luna, who has no right to judge anyone, least her saviour.
Otherwise I really like it and am looking forward to more!
I don't know, man. It seems to me that you've presented a flawed Celestia who hasn't been able to muster the wherewithal to stay in touch with the reality of the noble houses, who seems to be falling victim to a detached complacency, and then everyone is jumping all over her to moralize about not stridently standing up to Luna. As if Celestia can't be scared of the consequences of doing so. As if being scared makes her a bad person.
It reminds me of the lynch mobs that regularly show up on news stories, ready to get their hate on and tell everyone else how the people involved are rotten people for not doing what's obvious to them. From their detached perspective. In hindsight.
EDIT: Also, a lot of these comments read like they're subconsciously assuming that Celestia is superior to Luna, in both a legal and brute power sense.
Tormentor Luna is best Luna.
7314779
That little addition to the book is a cop out, plain and simple.
Job gets "rewarded", but that doesn't take away the pain he endured nor does it make his family less dead.
While I'm sure rampant murder isn't in the cards, make no mistake, the true villain of that book is God for ever agreeing to do such a monstrous thing.
As it affects this story, after this story is over, Luna and Celestia will still have tortured Twilight. Whatever excuses they offer, whatever means they use to try to undo the damage, it won't change what they did.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying this is a bad premise for a story, or that it can't be done well. I'm saying that you shouldn't brush off Luna and Celestia's actions with a simple "it's better now" at the end. I sincerely believe that for this story to work they must suffer consequences for their actions in some form or another.
Oooo boy. I sure am excited for the next chapter!
If I may ask? Who did your cover art?
Sweet merciful Christ on a pogo stick, Cyne, you've just got everyone in their favorite armchair on this fic.