Dear Princess Luna,
Enclosed, please find my next move in our eternal war masquerading as a chess game. Also, a reading list I think you might find tantalizing, as well as some of my notes on spells of the ninth formation, which I would love some feedback on.
I’m hesitant to ask you, but I have a personal request. Well, personal but also professional. It’s mostly personal.
I know you’re probably very busy! Princesses are busy, as I’ve learned. I mean, I knew that already, but now I really know. Anyway, you’re certainly hard at work dealing with so many pony’s dreams every night that I hesitate to ask this, and I wouldn’t if it weren’t important.
First, I’ll explain myself. I’ve been having nightmares. Yes, I’m bothering you with trifles, I know. Or, maybe they aren’t? I don’t know. I don’t want to presume or anything, but I also don’t want to come off as if dreams aren’t important. I’m still fascinated by the things you can do with and in dreams!
But I’ve been having nightmares almost every night this week and it’s starting to get to me. To be honest, after the one last night, I didn’t sleep at all. I tried. Okay, no, I didn’t. Sorry. I really should be honest here, because I’m asking you for help. I was a little afraid of sleeping after the last nightmare. Does that sound silly, a grown mare and a princess to boot, afraid to sleep because of nightmares? I feel silly admitting it. I’m probably being ridiculous.
But, just this once, could you set a watch for me? I think knowing that you will be there just in case will do wonders. Again, I wouldn’t ask for any special attention if I weren’t losing this much sleep, and if I weren’t seeing my performance suffer. I fell asleep halfway through breakfast this morning, and I worried Spike. Worrying Spike… I’ve done it enough. He deserves a Twilight who at least mostly has it together.
I hope this letter finds you well. Oh! I almost forgot. I just wanted to say, and forgot to say last time I wrote you, that Applejack sends her thanks. Apparently you helped Applebloom with some nightmares awhile back? I told her that she should write you herself, and that of all ponies she should know how much appreciation for hard work can mean. She’s shy about it, though. Said she didn’t want to bother you, and so on. Ha, kind of like me at the start of this letter. So, from both of us, thanks. We appreciate the hard work you do, and I especially know what sorts of things lurk in dreams. Not everything magical is good, after all. And after tonight? Well, I can definitely appreciate what being shielded from nightmares means.
To be honest… I guess, regardless of whether or not you can help, I’ve learned from this experience. Dreams are kind of like… looking in a foggy window on yourself.
With warm regard, your friend,
Twilight
Celestia glanced over the page, and considered what she would say next.
Luna did not wait for her to speak.
“I am the most miserable, distasteful creature that has walked the earth, sister.”
Celestia, still considering, blinked. The mask of a thousand years of ruling alone sat comfortably in place. Behind it, as if she sat in council of war, the sun’s shepherd considered her next move. There were several answers lined up and ready to be fired like a javelin in some ancient unicorn’s magic grasp. They ranged from the most diplomatic and detached to the acidic and frustrated. With care, she regarded her sister’s low estate, eyes hidden and form slack as she laid against the breakfast table.
She settled for somewhere in between. “I wouldn’t say that just yet. Discord is alive and well, after all.”
There was, for a fleeting instant, something like a smile from the mare who currently took up most of the table.
But it died. “Tia, I went too far.”
“I know.”
“How?” Luna stirred, rising a bit.
Celestia put the letter down, folded it neatly, and returned to her donut. It was, perhaps, not the most regal nor graceful of breakfasts. Her cook had been a bit put-out, surely, by being upstaged by Donut Joe. But she had seen this conversation and this morning and perhaps even this letter coming, and knew she would need the fortitude only indulgence could supply.
“Because, and I say this with all love, it is what you do.” She ate and let that linger in the air a bit. “You push. When we were young, you were the impetuous one. Yes, I had my moments, but I never was able to surpass you. I rolled the dice, but you tended to set the whole game on fire.”
Luna wilted even further, if such were possible.
“I have… I have done something terrible.”
Celestia hummed.
Truth be told, she was less in control of herself than she appeared. There were two warring instincts within her, primarily. The first was the older of the two: shield Luna, comfort Luna. The other, younger and insistent, was harsher: Defend Twilight. Be harsh with your sister.
She tried to keep the middle path. Twilight was her own pony, and she did not need Celestia to hover. Luna was her sister, but she needn’t be coddled. Leaning too far one way was injustice. Sitting in the middle was still choosing. A thousand years alone, and still she found that the world cooked up paradoxes that vexed her. Some days, she found it a bit exciting. Today was not one of those days. Today was a day where she wished quite fervently that life would be easier, and that love was easy.
“Perhaps.” Luna would explain herself in time. She always did, one way or another. The trick was to wait, to give her room to maneuver, wait for her to set up battle lines, and then encircle. That was how one found out the truth.
“Something is deeply wrong with me, sister.”
“Luna, what happened? Not just last night. With all of this.”
“I have dishonored the task that was given me. I did to a pony that thing which I swore so long ago to defend all ponies from. I… I went too far last night, farther than I intended. Much, much farther. I didn’t mean… no I did, I…”
Celestia sighed, forgot breakfast, and laid a hoof on Luna’s mane. Together, like this, in a place too open for Glory but perfect for the intimacy of family, neither wore their regalia nor did they disguise their forms. Luna’s light blue mane was short again, as it had been the night she was freed.
And so, for a few moments, the conversation stalled. Celestia stroked her sister’s mane and waited, and hoped, and doubted.
“I thought about the Nightmare,” Luna began at length. “And how my resentment formed. The difference between what was and what is, as we talked of once.” When Celestia nodded, she continued with even pace. “I had to find a way to engender such a conflict in Twilight, or so I thought, and only then would I have satisfaction. It was beyond selfish. I, myself, am beyond selfish. I was blinded. Not once did I pause to consider what it was I meant to do.”
“You touched her spirit, then, I take it.”
“Yes.”
Celestia sighed again.
“I found… I found a thread. Something which hurt to touch, something secret and compromising and buried, and I… I pulled.”
“And you built a dream using it?”
“No. It built itself. I know better. I should know better. I can create dreams, yes, but I can also prod the dreamer to create their own. You remember this, surely.”
“It comes back to me, yes.”
It really did, all coming back at once. You could do a lot of things with suggestions, hints, subtle words… You could do a lot. That’s how it had all started. Unchecked rumor and unanswered suggestion. How had the great schism ended? She remembered what ponies who had been bathed in her sister’s glory looked like.
Celestia fought a grimace. She could not be too swift to say anything. At least ponies subjected to Luna’s aura lived.
Luna groaned softly, and nuzzled her sister’s hoof. “Twilight created her own dream, born of this secret long hidden and long buried, this private shame, and with it came a host of insecurities. But it was I who let those insecurities free.”
Celestia withdrew her hoof slowly, so as not to be mistaken, and reached with her magic. A parcel came floating from deeper in her chambers, and she laid it on the table before a puzzled Luna.
“I too received mail around dawn,” Celestia said, her tone as gentle as she could manage.
She wasn’t angry. Or, rather, she wasn’t angry enough to let that anger motivate her. Anger was often a useless emotion, destructive more than constructive, binding more than freeing. She was frustrated. Disappointed. Perhaps sick at heart. It had been easy, with separation, to forget how troubling it was not to be alone.
Luna shied away from the papers. “From Twilight? Oh, sister, than you know.”
“I do.”
Luna shielded her eyes. “I do not have anything worth saying.”
“I am not sure of that just yet. There are things yet to be said.” Celestia unfolded the letter and read, keeping her voice even.
Dear Celestia,
First, I hope you enjoy the notes I’ve attached to this message. I’m sending Luna a copy of them as well, and I would love your input. I’m trying to find a workaround to the old problem of the Ninth formation. Energy use and loss. Nothing more invigorating then cheating entropy, really. It’s been a good distraction.
And I needed a good distraction.
I’m not really sure how to write this letter. I’ve tried several times (I had a lot of time to try) and I’ve gone back and forth about what to say and why and how and when, and finally I’m not sure if I can stand to write another draft, so this one will have to do or else I’m going to lose it. So, I apologize if it comes across as rambly or strange. It’s been a rough night.
I had a nightmare tonight. It was… bad. But, because I couldn’t go to sleep, I thought a lot.
My nightmare was about you. And me. And somepony else. No, I should start at the beginning. I was going to say, “you probably didn’t notice” but I’m almost positive you did. I mean, hello, we both know how much you notice, especially about your students. Looking back, I realize you were always nudging me towards making friends! I guess I was just too boneheaded to take the hint. Sending me to Ponyville was kind of the last ditch effort, but hey, it worked! So no complaints there. I’m glad you did.
I had a massive crush on you when I was young. Like, the biggest. And I guess, if I’m honest, it continued into my teenage years. It didn’t die naturally so much as I just sort of bottled it away and aggressively buried it, mostly just because I was gangly and awkward and insecure, like any filly my age… and because I guess I idolized you. I mean, not that I don’t think the world of you now!
But I know you better now. Before you get worried, I’m not coming on to you.
I kind of just wanted to admit that for my own sake, because I turned something that was probably natural into something that certainly wasn’t. This huge inferiority complex disguised as romantic longing that was probably unhealthy. So what does this have to do with my dream?
Well. My dream was that somehow, you and I were… together. Okay, please don’t judge too harshly, I know this is ridiculous to read. But we were. And I was so, so happy. I was coming to Canterlot every week to see you and everything was wonderful. But I came early, and you were in a meeting. The meeting wasn’t a meeting so much as it was a rendezvous. Of the carnal kind, you know? Not with me, who you were with. In the dream, I mean.
Okay. I’m going to move on from that because it was kind of traumatic but also its super embarrassing, I realize, to tell somepony, “oh by the way I had a dream we were together and you cheated on me, isn’t that neat?” because it’s pretty weird and a little uncomfortable for everyone involved.
You didn’t give a reason, I don’t think. I’m not entirely sure, some of the memory has faded. But what I do remember is how it was hard for me to remember to call you Celestia, instead of Princess, and that’s what I dwelled on most of the next three hours. And, you know what? The rest of it is bonkers, but that part is true. I think it might be important. So! This is a friendship report, I guess.
Tonight, I think I learned a lot about myself. Bottling up your insecurities, being down on yourself all the time over silly things, all that dumb mind game stuff, is a load of baloney. And it’s bad. It can hurt you and your friendships with other ponies, because you can convince yourself that they don’t want to be your friends, and furthermore that you don’t deserve to be their friends.
And you know what? I think that’s really foolish. So, I’ve resolved not to keep doing that. I can’t just fix everything all at once. I know that. You don’t just become not shy or not nervous by saying you aren’t and “toughing it out”. But I think that you can try to be better for your own sake, and trying is important.
I’m going to stop calling you Princess forever, if that’s alright. (I mean, if it isn’t you should totally tell me because I mean, I don’t know, maybe you’d rather that? I mean, lots of ponies have two names and prefer one, and I guess princess is sort of like a name?) I’m going to try my damndest not to get so hung up on myself. Let’s be friends. I mean, we are, but there’s so much I don’t even know about you and that isn’t right. Like, and this is true, the third thought I had when I woke up was: does Celestia even like mares? I don’t know! I never asked! Do you? Is it weird to ask that in context?
I guess my point is… You’ll always be my Princess, Celestia. You’ll always have been my teacher and mentor. And you’ve always been my friend, in one way or another. But tonight I learned that I’ve not been the best friend in return. What I was worried about with my Ponyville friends, that having a fancy title would make me seem distant, I kind of turned around and stuck on you. That’s not fair. Friends should talk, and not just when there’s business or a national crisis or something. If I had a friend, or worse yet someone I was in love with, who always called me princess and never Twilight... That would be sad. Not sure how else to put it. Too tired.
So, next time I have a free weekend, how does tea sound? I’ll bring Go. No one plays in Ponyville and I’m dying to play. Do you know how? Probably, but if you don’t, I’d love to teach you. Also, if you do, prepare your A-game because Spike has gotten really, really good from the several dozen times I’ve made him suffer through this week and I think the idea of me having a new partner might be the best news he’s had all month.
Your friend, forever and always,
Twilight Sparkle
Celestia folded the letter and floated it gently back to its resting place inside, on her private desk.
“For the record,” she said lightly, “my tastes as far as the carnal have changed little since we were parted, and I do in fact play Go. I am very good. I am quite looking forward to that.”
Luna was silent. Confused, possibly. But mostly silent.
So, she kept talking. “Luna, you went too far. You injured your integrity, yes, but the mare I see before me is very different from the one who twisted ponies before. The one I see, sharing breakfast with me before she turns in for the day, is hurt. Very deeply hurt. Imperfect, yes, but not beyond help. If I truly thought you could not somehow mend this breach... “ She shrugged. “This conversation would be different. I hope you believe that.”
“I… are you not dismayed by the revelation?”
“To be honest, I am unsure how I feel. I did know, when she was growing up.” Celestia allowed herself a smile. “Truly, it was rather endearing. Many young fillies and colts have crushes on figures of authority, ponies they trust and like and want to be approved by. Teachers, mentors, and so on. I thought she’d grown out of it a long time ago. I’m humbled, if anything, and I’m grateful that despite going through this, she has proved herself to be as thoughtful and as honest as ever. I do not think you have done any lasting damage, sister.” A thought occurred, and the smile slipped away. “Though it was painful to read that even a pale imitation of myself would do such a hurtful thing to a pony I love. Twilight learned a lesson, but I myself have been thinking on why I was sparing when choosing lovers.” She glanced down into her mug. “Perhaps too sparing,” she said.
“I am sorry. If I had known for certain… If I had been able to alter the thread-dream in anyway, I would never have let such a lie take place.”
“I know. I knew before you told me, sweet sister.”
“I am glad to hear it.”
Celestia nodded, and sipped at her coffee--again, for fortitude--before she finished. “But I do think that you should consider long and hard what you will say to her. Tonight?”
“Yes. I could not bear another night of waiting.”
“I do not think I could either,” Celestia said softly. Then, a bit louder. “Be that as it may, I urge you to be honest with her. Twilight is just as imperfect as you are. But I believe in her. I think your real satisfaction still lies with her. Just not in the way you expected.”
“I think you are right. I fear the audience.” Luna sat back in her chair. Slouched, really.
As you should, a part of Celestia thought. She continued to sip, and said nothing. The part of her that was vengeful was glad. The part of her that was merciful was sated. The part of her that loved waited hopefully.
But she had faith in Twilight. After all, had she not once said to Luna: have you considered my servant, Twilight?
And she chuckled. Well, not a servant. An equal now, finally. As she had been all along, though it took pain to see it at last. Twilight was right on one count: when she wished to be, few ponies could match her for sheer boneheaded tenacity about the worst things. Sometimes she needed a push.
She and Luna were alike that way.
Not that she appreciated the nature of the push. But castigating Luna for an act she was already so miserable about was neither profitable nor wise. No, as emotionally fulfilling as lashing out could be, it was far better to heal. She just wished healing wasn’t so messy.
And, further down, she wanted to apologize to Twilight herself. Though there were tied that bound her, ancient oaths and laws of the deeper magic, she had never been denied the power of her words. In some other world, perhaps she had turned Luna from this and saved them all the trouble. Perhaps tonight she would ask and see what might have been.
Between coaxing Luna into eating and mentally preparing herself for the day, Celestia daydreamed of board games, and she smiled. Perhaps there was hope yet.
so i wonder if twilight going to end up with one for the princess or both of them
I was not expecting this chapter to unfold this way. I was expecting to find Twilight a mental wreck, on the verge of losing her mind as Luna raced to Ponyville to stop an impending explosion (physical or metaphysical, either works).
But now, now I'm expecting there to be a confrontation as Luna confronts Twilight and admits what and why she did what she did. And then we see what Twilight does in response. My immediate thought is Twilight will be heart broken, angry, and distraught over what Luna has done to her, but somehow understanding and forgiving. But, I may be wrong. Twilight is still a pony, and her own pony, not one that Celestia controls. It's very possible (although improbable) that Twilight will throw a hoof across Luna's muzzle. And if she did, I don't think either Celestia or Luna would begrudge her that.
And now, we wait.
ties vs tied?
Twilight after playing a few rounds with Celestia:
orig12.deviantart.net/0d36/f/2015/077/d/5/flip_this_game__by_dm29-d8lig9c.png
That situation...resolved itself quite well...
I actually liked Twilight's reaction a lot. It's just like her. It isn't anything flashy or explosive, it's simply that: Twilight, and you wrote it perfectly.
Now I'm just anxiously awaiting the grand finale!
7578991 storms have calms. Letters are easy.
I like how you completely side-stepped the topic of Celestia's sexual orientation.
7579025 : D
Well that's a relief.
7579139
you forgot the stormI know right?
Hm. I'm conflicted. I found myself devouring the chapters and generally enjoying the theme of faith vs. faillibility you've presented here, coupled with the (comparatively) lighter tone of FiM applied to the Book of Job, but at the same time I echo some of the earlier sentiments readers stated at the start, and, in spite of my enjoyment, I find that meshing Job's story with FiM doesn't completely click with me. On a metafictional level I think, "Luna is being cast as Lucifer," but then I immediately jump to, "But Luna isn't Lucifer." Same with Celestia and her being cast as God. There's a number of fundamental differences between the biblical figures and FiM characters, and it's giving me a sense of dissonance and thoughts of, "This looks out of character for such-and-such."
And then there's 'Joblight's' afflictions. Yes, the dreams are terrible while they last, and the final one was a veritable gut shot, but while Job lost everything he had and was still faithful, Twilight... really just lost a few nights of sleep in the end. For me it lacks the visceral impact of Job's holy crap you just lost everything and are now covered in boils because of a divine betting match, but at the same time it's obvious why you wouldn't do that- you might as well be writing Lucifer and God wearing alicorn masks at that point, and everyone would be howling for out-of-character alicorn blood.
Beyond that are just sleepy, inane ramblings of "Such and such doesn't meet my headcanon rargh," and general positive platitudes of "Yes, I like your wordplay, more please," so I guess I've said my piece. G'nite.
You know, I don't think I like this Celestia very much - I know I (and others) labeled her a wishy-washy coward after chapter 1, and this chapter only reinforces said impression. She actually has the gall to pat herself on the back for sitting there and basically doing nothing! I have seen all sorts of passive Celestias who fail to act, react or otherwise take action when they should, but this might well be the first one who actually is self-serving enough to congratulate herself for doing so and passing it off as wisdom
The mental gymnastics she goes through in order to justify not saying anything too bad to poor little woona and basically not committing to the issue on a case where the right and wrong is so clearly defined is ... impressive. Not to mention how poor of a taste it leaves in one's mouth to see her later mussing on the character flaws of Luna and Twilight - while she herself is a shining beacon of her own glaring inadequacies. I can only hope she is this passively cowardly only when it comes to her sister, otherwise it's indeed both amazing and scary that Equestria has survived for a thousand years with a leader this passive non-committal at the helm, and said survival might have less to do with Celestia than one might originally think.
On a whole ... meh. I mean, I am sort of looking towards the next chapter, and perhaps I am getting ahead of myself here, but after this chapter it feels like this story is well on its way to having Luna walk away from her wrongdoings without so much as a real chastisement or consequences for her actions, nor as much as a slap on her wrist - proverbial or otherwise. Celestia is obviously committed to sitting there in her best impression of a room ornament, and somehow I am not expecting much from the seemingly doormat-Twilight either, and past that there is no one left to take Luna to task for her crime. And with the way this story has been set up from the start, wanting to see Luna (and perhaps Celestia as well for allowing it to happen, though that's obviously not going to happen) face repercussions for her actions is pretty much the only emotional payoff and motivation that has kept me reading so far.
I will gladly eat my words if Twilight actually tears a stripe or two off the traitor's hide during their confrontation and doesn't just meekly roll over like a doormat with undeserved hugs and acceptance and instant forgiveness, but with the way Celestia has essentially already washed her hooves from any sort of involvement, and the way Twilight's personality is presented here, I kinda worry this is going to end without much in the way of emotional payoff on behalf of the wronger party here, and the instigator is going to get to walk off 100% scot free.
7578861 Why not both? Twilight could express a willingness to forgive...in time. I feel the ideal reaction is letting Luna know they can still be friends, but that she has seriously crossed the line, and that will not be simply forgotten out of hand. Twilight is still wholly loyal, but she has been grievously hurt and betrayed by Luna, and if she lets that slide then she is truly a doormat. There's friendship, and then there's...that.
Friendship does not mean not holding my friends accountable for doing wrong.
7579471 Not wholly disagreeing here, and Twilight has been a bit of a Purity Sue so far, but I think Celestia recognized that Luna is pretty well punishing herself already.
7579386 I definitely see what your going towards and though I feel you got the jist of it I'll feel better if I just put this here.
7580950
I noticed that. Still doesn't change my sentiments.
Might I suggest a Horror tag? The final dream really is the stuff of nightmares.
Plus, the Book of Job is pretty much a biblical horror story.
7579471
Luna says “I am the most miserable, distasteful creature that has walked the earth, sister.”, and Celestia replies “I wouldn’t say that just yet. Discord is alive and well, after all.” That isn't exactly a comforting statement, or one which is placating.
From my perspective, Celestia is far from rolling over. She was angry, but "she wasn’t angry enough to let that anger motivate her." She is torn between two reactions: "shield Luna, comfort Luna...[and] Be harsh with your sister." For the duration of the discussion, Celestia is on the edge of tearing into her sister, or at least close enough to the edge to see the drop. She seems composed and understanding to Luna, but "she was less in control of herself than she appeared".
I think it is important to realize that this is the sister she had lost for a thousand years, and that this is her dear friend and student which has been hurt. She undoubtedly could have verbally destroyed Luna, and brought her to a withering heap of self-loathing, but she realizes that this is the truly self-gratifying option. This is the option that you are arguing for.
You claim that Celestia glories in her ability to abstain from harshness towards her sister, but to give into that disdain is the EASY option.
If you put this into perspective in your own life, can you imagine finding a loved one (like a sibling) who is in a heap of self-loathing and who freely admits they have committed evil, and compounding that suffering? What do either of you gain as you dig that pit deeper? All that is accomplished is that you can stand on even higher ground, and feel relieved at having vented. That is the easy option, and it only hurts both sides in the long run.
Far from being a push-over, Celestia realizes that Luna knows she has done wrong, and has learned her lesson. She isn't base enough to rub her face in the mess, even though it is said several times that she is tempted to do so.
The actions of Celestia are the actions of the wise- she offers no empty or kind words, she does not relieve Luna's burden by saying it is okay, because she knows it isn't. Yet, she offers guidance to a sister which has lost her way, and points her to the right path. Sometimes that is all one can do, especially if the pony in question is your god-sister.
My words are not meant to shed you in a poor light in any way. I suspect that you are angry with Celestia not because she is being a pushover, but because she isn't doing what you want her to do. You want to see Luna suffer, and because that is being denied to you, you blame the only one who has had the chance and ability to do so. Sometimes though, sometimes someone has suffered enough, or learned enough.
And we know Celestia would act if she had to- if things were truly unrepairable in Luna's head, we have this thought to reflect on:
"She remembered what ponies who had been bathed in her sister’s glory looked like... At least ponies subjected to Luna’s aura lived."
Those don't sound like descriptions of a solar god who is willing to let her subjects suffer.
7581542
Yes, I am indeed arguing that Celestia should have been harsher on Luna - much harsher. That it's almost insulting how not-harsh she is being. And it's her option of doing nothing that was the easy way out - for Celestia herself, and for her relationship with Luna, but it was neither the right nor the just one. We have a word for political officials who turn a blind eye towards wrongdoings committed by their friends, family or associates - and said word isn't "wise", it's "corrupt".
Because make no mistake, what Luna committed was a crime - torture (be it mental, physical or emotional) is a considered exactly that in most civilized societies. This would be even more so in a society where mind-affecting magic is literally a thing. And Luna committed a planned assault upon Twilight's mind with the planned and expecting result of breaking it - and yet she gets to walk away from it without as much as areal chastisement, never mind any sort of actual consequences or reprimand for her actions, because she is Celestia's family. This is in no way different from a corrupt and nepotistic judge and jury ruling in favor of the guilty party only because of familial ties.
Of course I can understand why Celestia is doing this - it's not hard to imagine why she would value Luna more and why justice isn't particularly high on her list of concerns and why the easy and non-confrontational way out is preferred when her family is involved (see again the corrupt government official who covers for his friends/partners/family) - just that this doesn't make her a wise or respectable individual, nor does it paint her in a fair light as someone who is supposed to look out for her subjects, if she lets her sister get away with anything short of physical assault.
That Luna feels bad about it afterwards is of relatively little consequence - do you believe that you, if you set upon an individual with the pre-planned intent and goal of breaking them mentally and emotionally, then proceed to subject them to magically inducted mental torture over four days with said goal in mind, deserve to face no real consequences nor reprimand because somewhere along the way you realized you are actually a bad person and feel bad about it afterwards? Do you truly think that a punishment for such a crime should be "nothing" for the simple fact that the culprit expresses remorse afterwards? Because that's what you are essentially arguing for, that no punishment (not even stern words!) should be issued towards criminals who feel bad enough for themselves post-fact. Needless to say, I can't agree to that. That's a mockery of both the concept of justice, a punishment fitting the crime and of the victim.
And no, we don't know that "Celestia would act if she had to" - we know the exact opposite. That Celestia won't act when she has to. Had she done her duty and acted when she had to, and stopped Luna from the very start, this whole mess wouldn't have happened. So that's very much false - Celestia has been established as someone who won't act, will turn a blind eye, act as a pushover and give great leeway where Luna is involved. This whole story is happening the way it does because of said character flaw of Celestia's.
On another, unrelated note regarding Celestia's inner mussing of how angry she is, I think this aspect of the chapter was pretty weakly written. It reads like a pretty clear case of Show vs Tell, where what is Told doesn't match up with what is Shown. There is a reason the saying "actions speak louder than words" exist - except Celestia doesn't even offer words in this chapter. It's like the author is saying "Don't worry guys, she's totally angry, I promise!" while in reality she is sitting there siping tea and not doing much of anything. As they say, words (or in this case - thoughts) are cheap. And this felt like a fairly cheap attempt from the author to pre-empt another wave of complaints about Celestia akin to those she received in chapter 1, while not actually changing anything about her behavior or modus operandi, nor making her look any better.
Am I being angry with Celestia? Hm, I suppose - though I would say it's three fourths severe disappointment, as I generally tend to feel about seeing injustice being done and corrupt officials allowing it to happen and not lifting a hand to stop it because of personal reasons.
And because of what it signals about the direction of the story's conclusion - that being Luna getting to walk away with no real punishment or consequences for her actions, because there is no reason to expect much from our local doormat "Purity Sue" (as another poster called her) Twilight, now that Celestia has decided to turn a blind eye to it all and previously reassure Luna how she loves her regardless.
Because like I mentioned previously, at least for me, seeing the consequences for Luna's actions is pretty much the only reason for reading this story - there is not much else to the tale, not much else it can offer, because it's otherwise very simple and black & white. It's not an adventure to be excited about, it's not a mystery that engages to mind to unravel, it's not a comedy to be enjoyed. It's not exciting, thrilling, uplifting or smart.
What it is, is Dramatic - and did a fairly good job of engaging one's emotions through the antagonistic actions taken by Luna, because of the unfairness of the whole situation and because of the expectations of how it would eventually blow up in their faces. And whether it's an emotionally satisfying conclusion (at least for me) - and thus whether it's a satisfying story as a whole - depends almost solely on the consequences for Luna's actions. That's practically the only important plot point of the story. Celestia owing up for her own failures to do her duty and her own inadequacies as a ruler and protector of her people (as she is allowing an innocent to suffer at the hooves of her sister) would be another, but it's beyond obvious that isn't going to happen - or even be acknowledged by the narrative.
So all that is left is Luna and the punishment for her crime (because that's exactly what she committed) and betrayal. But Celestia already didn't so much as slap her on the wrist and just sat there like a statue, and with the way Twilight's personality has been presented so far, I have no reason to suspect she will be anything but a Fluttershy-esque doormat who will roll over within the span of a dozen paragraphs and offer hugs and forgiveness and understanding and acceptance by the end of it with no lasting consequences. And with the story seemingly well on its way towards an emotionally unsatisfying conclusion where the guilty party looks like she won't face even the slightest of consequences, neither legal nor personal, neither short term or long term ... well, if the story doesn't deliver that, then I'd argue it won't have delivered anything at all, because there really is nothing else to it.
Still hoping to be proven wrong with the last chapter(s?), and I'll gladly and readily eat my words if that's the case, but based on the present setup I'm sadly not expecting much from Luna's and Twilight's "confrontation".
When did this get bumped up to Mature?
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I can tell you spent a fair amount of time on your reply, and I appreciate the thought-out conversation.
You made several points that I rather enjoyed, the chief among them the claim that Luna's infliction of nightmares upon Twilight is equivalent to torture. That wording brings to light the severity of the situation, and really illustrates your case.
This discussion might condense into the two moral camps of consequentialism vs. non-consequentialism. The former is the position that whether an action is moral or not is based on the consequences of the action, while the latter is the position that an act is either right or wrong intrinsically, and the outcomes of the action have nothing to do with whether it is moral.
At this point, i would like to observe that what Luna was trying to do was test Twilight and be sure that she would not falter as Luna herself had faltered in the past. Our military does this same thing, putting candidates under significant mental strain to be sure they will not crack under pressure. Further, military units which are at a high risk of being tortured actually practice being tortured (such as waterboarding) so they can understand and prepare for crisis if it arrives. The counterpoint to this is that what the military does is consensual, while Luna's invasion of Twilight's mind clearly wasn't. I am not arguing for Luna's case here- i believe it is rather clear that the readers are supposed to loath Luna's actions, and the author certainly portray's Luna's actions in a negative light.
What i am suggesting by the above is that the outcomes of Luna's actions, the consequences, were well-meaning, so it matters philosophically whether you are consequentialist or not. We can all agree that Luna did indeed torture Twilight, but the case could be made that consequences take her from evil to perhaps tragically misguided.
A common example for this type of problem is the following scenario: You have it on good authority that a nuclear warhead is armed within a city, and the police have apprehended a suspect. You have little proof this person is involved, but if they are, they are your only lead to stop the bomb in time. Would you consider torturing this person to be justified, if there is a possibility that you can get information which will save hundreds of thousands of lives? You may still feel your action is reprehensible, and hate yourself, but would you do it anyways? The correlation between this question and Luna's reasoning should be evident.
Philosophy aside, i would like to point out that the text repeats several times that Celestia is physically incapable of interfering with Luna's plans, as there is some universal law which forbids it and cannot be broken- a pact of sorts which was made and is utterly binding. This means that the only actions Celestia could really take is to verbally destroy her sister- It isn't nepotism which stays Celestia's wrath, but some universal law. And, considering that Celestia's only choices are tearing her sister down verbally or abstaining, do you still think her choice to be an unbearable one?
Consider that Luna is a god-princess, and co-ruler of Equestria. Celestia needs Luna on her side, and needs Luna functioning. Blasting her sister with all the things she has done wrong would only tip her over the edge, and could result in a permanently damaged relationship, if not something far worse (like the resurgence of Nightmare Moon). Celestia also thinks in this chapter that Twilight does not need to be defended, and leaves the judgement up to Twilight. This is similar to how a civilian can choose not to press charges when a crime is committed, such as robbery. If Twilight feels Luna is unforgivable, she will let Luna know, and Celestia will certainly not offer Luna comfort or defend Luna. Celestia realizes that the only person who is in a position to offer scorn or forgiveness is Twilight herself, and, perhaps more importantly, that Luna is willing to accept punishment from Twilight.
But, most importantly, and my real sticking point in my position, is that nothing would be gained by Celestia lashing out at her sister. Luna knows she did wrong, and claims she has committed evil. Luna is in despair over her actions. What does anypony gain from scolding Luna besides satisfaction? I think this is why Celestia does not plow into Luna- she knows nothing can be gained. Further, she knows that Luna will accept any sentence Twilight passes on Luna, and thus needs to take no action herself. She knows Luna is already awaiting punishment, and you don't beat a prisoner while they are already standing trial by someone else.
You said that the story is pretty black and white to you, and thus Luna's punishment is what keeps you reading, but i think it is far from black and white- it is about a fallen pony seeing her flaws in others, and trying to manifest those flaws as if to redeem her old transgressions, but it all goes wrong. It is a story about ponies, yes, but any story about ponies is a story about humans, as the fimfiction author Cold in Gardez says in his/her banner. If the story were black and white, Celestia wouldn't be conflicted, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. If the story were black and white, Luna wouldn't have had any reason to do what she had done, and yet it seems she did, even if it was misguided. People don't make wise choices when they are in despair, and that is a foundation of this story- what despair can drive a pony, or a person, to do. This story isn't pretty, because despair isn't pretty, and in a situation like this, there are no "best" choices- everyone loses, at least a little, and that, to me, is what is powerful.
Again, i really appreciate your thoughtful response. If i missed any of your major points or you feel misunderstood, let me know and I will clarify. Also, to Cynewulf, if i misinterpreted your writing in any way, please correct me.
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I am not going to get involved with the rest of the debate, as I don't have the time right now, but I will clarify this point:
The 'universal laws' prevents Celestia from infringing upon Luna's domain, which is the Dreams - whatever Luna does in the dream realm, Celestia can't stop her from doing it.
But she indeed can confront her in the physical world, up to an including force if necessary. Which would have been the right thing to do if need be, because allowing Luna to commit acts which would indeed count as torture and assault (of the mental variety) against a completely innocent pony is inexcusable. It's her duty to do so, same as she did when Luna went Nightmare on her, and her failure to act doesn't reflect well on her own leadership in this case. Luna simply isn't fit for any position of leadership or authority and continues continuously to prove so.
It's even worse when you consider the simplest way she could have completely prevented and derailed the whole ordeal doesn't even involve confronting Luna in any way - she could have simply warned Twilight during day one what Luna is up to. That she isn't even doing that much is what ultimately earns and seals for her the moniker of a coward and shows just how much of a blind eye she is willing to turn to the suffering her sister inflicts upon otherwise innocent equestrians.
It's even worse when you consider that Twilight is not Luna's subordinate, but her equal, as Celestia herself notes in this chapter. Luna is in no position to demand of her anything, and such an act upon her fellow monarch (which, as Batling noted, was indeed carried out with the ultimate intent and expected result of breaking Twilight's mind to the point where she imagined the emergence of 'Nightmare Twilight' as the ultimate outcome) ultimately constitutes and attempt at regicide - the last time she tried something similar she earned herself a thousand years on the moon. She should be looking at jail time and removal from her office as a Princess for what she did here. It doesn't really matter if the victim "presses charges" in this case or not - the crime has been real and verifiable, and the highest authorities in the land had born witness to it. That Celestia doesn't act on it (but did so when it was her own hide on the line) - well, it doesn't say flattering things about either of the sisters.
As for your bomb analogy - what you have here is a different scenario. There is no armed nuclear bomb, there is no threat and there are no suspects, because there is no emergency, real or imagined. What Luna did in this scenario was akin to a paranoid conspiracy nut of an agent grabbing a random, otherwise completely innocent and exemplary person from the government and proceeding to torture said person - you know, just in case. You can never know when otherwise innocent people might be hiding nukes in their basement after all, best to torture them to make sure!
That is, indeed, an evil act in every sense of the word - calling it "tragically misguided" is a bit like calling a case of rape an "unfortunately persistent act of lovemaking" and feels like an attempt at diminishing or dismissing the severity of the situation and the harm that went with it.
What would be gained from Celestia acting upon this situation would be Luna's removal from a position of authority - which she has repeatedly proven herself as presently unqualified of holding. Coupled with the Tantabus incident (which is another recent case of Luna endangering Equestria and its citizens due to her personal issues) it paints a picture of an individual who is paranoid and mentally unstable - preventing her from harming others and removing her from a position which allows said person to feel as if she has the right to should be a first priority, right next to assigning them psychological counseling (not optional) and evaluation.
This is a legitimate concern, not just something said out of spite or anger - Luna is not mentally stable and is unsuited for holding a position of leadership and authority. Until a qualified professional (not Celestia - she is demonstratively incapable of being objective when it comes to Luna) proclaims her fit for duty once more, she doesn't have any business being near governance or an office of authority. At this point it's Luna who actually has to pull herself together and who has to demonstrate that she is deserving the position of a Princess, is capable of responsibly carrying out the duties associated with it, isn't going to abuse said power and is actually worthy of being loyal to.
Ultimately though, I will have to agree with Batling on this being a very "black and white" scenario - Luna did wrong for the wrong reasons, there is no debating this, and there really isn't much more to the story than that - wanting to see justice being carried out and Luna being held accountable (with real and actually tangible consequences - feeling bad is not, and have never been, grounds for dismissing crimes of this magnitude) is indeed the only payoff this scenario ultimately has to offer. How said consequences are handled will, for me as well, determine how I feel about the story - and whether it was worth reading it.
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Damn, guess I got involved after all - and now I'm late!
7583880 Hmm, i feel your argument is rather compelling, and it compliments Batling's argument very well. Your points are very solid. I have work i need to do right now, but i will reflect on what you and Batling have said, and do some re-reading, before responding. I want to give your side a fair appraisal, because it has a lot of merit- I feel my position changing in response to both of your words, and i wan to articulate that thoroughly. . I will get back to you later, pinkie promise :)
p.s. I hope you made it in time!
7583894
It has been fun talking to you as well :)
Like, I wouldn't blame Celestia one bit for sitting this one out and not butting in if the conflict was about Luna hurting Twilight by eating her last slice of birthday cake or saying something hurtful about her to the press that made it into newspapers or by sleeping with her stallion or something of that nature, nor would Luna need that much of a punishment then - shit happens.
It's just that what she did here is kinda beyond being merely excusable, she has commited a very real and very nasty crime (attempting to break the mind of an innocent via invasive mental magic) which, had she succeeded as she expected to, would have ruined at least one life (Twilight) and possibly put all of Equestria and its citizens in danger if Twilight indeed went Nightmare Sparkle as result and they failed to stop her.
This is actual serious business and a criminal offense that can't be simply waved away! And Skydrake does bring up a good point that I hadn't thought about much, how this actually means it might be necessary to remove Luna from a government position - not simply as punishment for the sake of punishment, but because she is genuinely messed up in the head and has shown herself to be a genuine threat to otherwise innocent and uninvolved citizens and thus can't be considered fit for rule.
Like, randomly torturing other members of the government to test their "loyalty" is the sort of stuff you expect coming out from North Korea, which is hardly a flattering comparison considering how nuts that place is! There is something seriously messed up with Luna that she needs to be held accountable for, not just brushed aside because she feels bad about it in between her bouts of destructive madness
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7583880
Thank you for your thought-out responses. This whole discussion has been very mature, and that is not something i take for granted.
As for your points, I concede that what Luna has done is evil. Your direct words that "randomly torturing other members of the government to test their "loyalty" is the sort of stuff you expect coming out from North Korea," sums up Luna's actions in a very clear manner. I think Luna's saving grace is that she has, by this chapter unarguably, realized the gravity of what she has done, and is willing to accept any punishment- in fact, she can be directly quoted as welcoming the punishment ("Perhaps Celestia did not wish to see her out of disgust? Luna understood that as well. Perhaps Celestia was furious, already deciding her fate. And Luna also understood that. She accepted it. She invited it." - Chapter 4- just one of many times this is said). There is a reason that criminals who are truly sorry for what they have done receive a lighter sentence, and because Luna is truly repentant, my heart is made softer towards her. Also, her internal conflict and motivations of despair and desperation/redemption at least let us see where she is coming from. We may not be able to condone what she has done, but again, knowing that she is suffering as much as Twilight (or almost as much) can soften our hearts towards her.
So, to be clear, I do agree that what Luna did was evil. i just think we as readers need to understand her motivations and her feelings towards her own actions, so that we can judge her properly. Essentially, i am arguing the difference between Luna being irredeemable or not. She has committed evil, yes, yet I think her actions and motivations show her to be redeemable, which is important. She has done evil, but she isn't evil. I hope that clarifies my position.
The only point I am not willing to concede is that Celestia is at fault for Luna's actions, or that Celestia is an unfit ruler. This is because the text says several times that Celestia is physically incapable of interfering with Luna's plans, unless she is essentially willing to do battle against her sister. i have read through the story again and pulled out quotes supporting this position below:
"Celestia protested, but was unable to intervene outside of the rules of engagement established both intangibly by the nature of sisterhood and tangibly by the laws of the firmaments in their governance" - Chapter 4
{“You cannot stop me.” -Luna
“I cannot.” -Celestia
“But you still want to interfere.” -Luna
“For your sake, yes. This is foolish and self-destructive.” -Celestia} - Chapter 2
{“I am not going to do something irreversible to Twilight in order to appease your unreasonable worry,” Celestia said, trying to balance steel with calm. “You know that it’s wrong. It would be a betrayal not only of the trust that our power is a sign of but of Twilight’s own trust in us. In you, personally, as her friend and ally… in me as her former teacher and as he friend.”
“Then I will do it. I never intended for you to do anything.” Luna sniffed. She seemed to edge further back into the darkness as the room began to simmer. “You know that my realm is my own and is inviolate.”
Celestia did know this. She knew the nature of things. But she growled. “Luna, you would also betray me, then? Even while you ramble about others doing the same, you will do so to Twilight and I in a single fell swoop.”} -Chapter 1
"I can’t stop you if you go that route and I know that [you] won’t listen."- Celestia to Luna, Chapter 1
I am certain these are not the only quotes which support my claim, however they should be sufficient. You made a valid point that Celestia could have warned Twilight, or something similar, and that gave me pause. My response would be to consider Celestia as she is portrayed in this story. She clearly loves and trusts Twilight, and she is clearly disgusted and infuriated with Luna's actions. Taking into account Celestia's portrayal, it seems reasonable to say that if Celestia could have warned Twilight, she would have. I don't think this "solution" needs to be shot down in the text specifically, because we can infer that it isn't possible or Celestia would have done so( I assume it ties in with the universal laws of the firmament cited above). Further, i caution against this line of thinking- Almost every story can be nitpicked until the problem seems artificial (think Lord of the Rings and how they could have flown on the Eagles to Mount Doom, yet this is considered a great literary work), but part of our responsibility as readers is to accept when the author has given us enough, and understand the spirit of the story. Perfect hindsight is 20/20, after all, and no one wants to read a whole chapter dedicated to shooting down every possible "alternative action" that the readers can think of. I just can't see holding Celestia responsible for Luna fair in the context of the story.
Finally, we have to remember that this is My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. This is a story about a pony who cannot trust those she loves because she cannot trust herself (among many other things). This is a story of how good ponies can do evil things when they are in despair. We aren't supposed to like what Luna has done- we are supposed to hate it. We are invited to watch as a fallen pony realizes she is fallen. The duality between Twilight and Luna is by no means an accident- The former trusts Celestia no matter what because Celestia is her beloved friend, whereas Luna can hardly trust herself, because she cannot even like herself. This juxtaposition allows us to see that trust/faith is an intrinsic part of friendship, as well as forgiveness. Particularly, a friend gives another friend the benefit of the doubt. I cannot stress that last sentence enough- it is one of my tenets of friendship/being a good human being. This is a story of what happens when this isn't the case- when "friend" and "faith" don't go hand in hand. Whether Luna is fit to rule is an interesting question to ask (and it definitely made me think!), but to focus on it subtracts from the heart of the story. It is better to ask "Can Luna be forgiven, and how will this change her?" "How can a fallen pony sink so low and still be put back together?" "Why is faith an integral part of friendship?"
Further, asking these questions helps us understand Celestia's dialogue with Luna in the story since she cannot physically interfere- why she does not verbally destroy Luna, but consistently offers the better path, letting Luna know she is wrong- why she does not hate her sister, but offers love regardless of her sisters horrible actions. It is because Luna is also Celestia's beloved friend (and sister to-boot), and she has faith in her friend's ability to change. Hopefully, we will get to see how the faith of her friends effects Luna, and how faith can help restore a broken pony.
Not onscreen, no.
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7583880
I fundamentally disagree with your sentiments, but that isn't the point I want to make. What I want to say is: MLP FiM fundamentally disagrees with your sentiments.
What you hate about the character decisions and actions in this story, is exactly what always happens in FiM. It's in the title! If the characters act as you wanted, they would be OOC and it wouldn't be MLP.
7582251
You read a story prefaced with " based on the Book of Job"... and you read it expecting 1 of the gods to be punished under human criminal law???
This story is plenty interesting. You're disappointed because you have been expecting the completely wrong things. Things which the Book of Job and MLP FiM wouldn't have given you either.
For example, let's take Starlight Glimmer, a character I loath, the only MLP character I loath. I don't hate her because she didn't receive punishment; I hate her because the show failed in portraying true remorse from her. I don't think that she even understands, to this day, why she was evil. That is the difference.
This is a wonderful set of letters and interaction between Celestia and Luna.
Some drama and surprisingly good feelings for a horror story!