A scientist wants to take Spike and study him in hopes of understanding dragons; however, her questionable methods make Spike refuse. The scientist counter-argues that Spike is not a pony and the same rights given to a pony, do not apply to him. A trial is commenced with Twilight as Spike’s defense attorney and Cadence as the unwilling prosecutor; Twilight must prove that Spike does indeed deserve the same rights as any pony. Or else, Spike is a lab rat that she will never see again.
This is a fanfic inspired by a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode The Measure of a Man, directed by Robert Scheerer. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
I want to thank the person who brought me into the fandom for helping me truly refine this idea and truly give it life. You know who you are!
I will say right now, updates for this fanfic may be highly irregular until I take care of certain obligations, but I promise not to abandon it until it's done.
So...if you are not a pony, you have no rights?
6930502 Not necessarily. It's more that legally dragons have not lived under Celestia's laws, preferring to keep to their own. The problem is Spike is also a dragon, so by extension, the law might not a readily apply to him. Or does it? Read and you will find out.
6930546 Trust me. Twilight's friends aren't going to accept without a fight.
No mention of Spike's heroics in the Crystal Empire?
6930635
Interesting story-premise, I look forward to seeing how you adapt the ST:TNG episode into MLP format.
As a friendly reminder, what made [TNG 2x09 - "The Measure of a Man"] one of the most memorable episodes of the overall ST:TNG series were several very important supporting factors, in addition to the central ethical/moral dilemma of Lieutenant Commander Data's sentience...
- a.) Commander Riker agonizing over having to fulfill his Duty (to Starfleet) over his Friendship (with Data). Even worse for the guilt Riker feels during the episode, was that Riker did such a good job at prosecution, that Commander Bruce Maddox prematurely congratulates Riker for what Maddox saw as a 'Slam Dunk Win' in his (Maddox's) favor.
- b.) Yet, at the dénouement of the episode, Data unhesitatingly FORGIVES Riker for his actions, absolving Riker of his un-necessary guilt, and reaffirming their Friendship.
- c.) Besides Captain Picard's natural eloquence, the insights he gained from Guinan to help him.
- d.) In the end, Commander Bruce Maddox was not only turned away in his incorrect viewpoint, but even became friends with Data ( [Captain Philippa Louvois]: {amused tone} "You called him (Data) 'he', not 'it'..."). And the two would correspond several times across the ST:TNG series.
~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
My favorite & memorable line from that episode...
"We've all been dancing around the basic issue here: Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has... {small humorous snort} I don't know that >I< have. But I've got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself."
- Starfleet JAG Captain Philippa Louvois
6930502 I think the idea is that because there has never been a dragon living in Equestria there are no laws set for what general rights they are entitled to. If an intelligent alien were to come to earth there would technically be no laws in place stating what rights the alien was entitled to.
My only question is why did the doctor go to Twilight's parents? Why not go directly to Twilight in Ponyville?
My guess is that, due to the whole 'big enough to eat a house in one bite' thing, that the laws don't apply to dragons simply because nobody has been dumb enough to piss one off this much before
But would it be possible for Cadance to be prosecutor? After all, Spike did save the Crystal Empire, so it could be argued that she have a conflict of interest... And I don't think that her subjects would be understanding as Twilight and Spike...
6930990 I know. I first watched it when I was a little kid, too young to truly understand it. When I came back and watched it recently, I was truly intrigued by the complicated themes and profound way they handled it all. It's a real testament to what science fiction can do.
6931354 Why thank you!
I will keep writing.
6931186 Yeah, I guess that's good point. I suppose I should of thought about that.
Improvised answer: Being a Canterlot resident, she immediately would approach Twilight's parents who were available in Canterlot.
True answer: I didn't think that completely through.
6931180 Yeah, I think that's a perfect way of phrasing it.
6931324 I suppose so. But I realized that the best way to prevent jury bias would be putting another alicorn against Twilight, and Cadence made the most sense. I mean the court would automatically rule in favor of a Princess like Celestia, and might not do so with Luna due to the whole Nightmare Moon fiasco, preferring to rule with Twilight. Plus, this is going to be particularly painful for Cadence as she is essentially prosecuting one of her friends. Hearts may be broken.
6931254 That's always a possibility. But I'm sure there's more to it than that.
6931367
Good writing, no matter what its theme or format, stands the Test of Time.
And Star Trek...
from The Original Series...
to The Next Generation...
to Deep Space Nine...
to Voyager...
to Enterprise...
...endures through literally generations of followers.
6931473 Like this comment people! (Calms self down). I couldn't agree more.
Picards speech at the end of the episode "comander Data is a machine,do we deny that? No....." is one of my favorite moments.
6931683 I suppose it was. I'm glad you liked it.
6931647 Yeah, it was a true masterpiece of an episode in every sense of the word. That ending speech was amazing. Gave me goosebumps the first time I watched it.
Seriously? The argument is "we have the right to take him because you forgot to get a receipt"?
I like what you're trying to do here, but the antagonists' claim on Spike is so weak, it strains believability. Part of what made the TNG episode work was that there was a logically justifiable claim that Data was "Starfleet property" and Starfleet could do whatever they wanted with him. In this case, all the opposition has done is present an argument that Spike doesn't legally belong to Twilight. That's a far cry from establishing any claim to him themselves.
You probably would have been better served to set Spike up as "Property of the Crown" and then invented some obscure (but reasonable, ethical, and benevolent at first glance) law that would justify these folks having some authority in regards to such "property" that trumped Celestia's authority as princess. As it is, all we get is the impression that there are no laws regarding dragons at all, which raises the question of why they would have any grounds to demand that he "submit or leave".
You know, stuff like this makes me wish Twilight would go "So either give my son to a crackpot scientist with untested methods for decades to the point most of those who know him might not even be able to clearly remember him and even some of those who know and care about him would be dead from old age by then, or send him to be with other dragons never to be seen again just because Celestia's laws do not apply to him? Well here is my counter argument. Go fuck yourselves or the next time something threatens Equestria or the world to the point Celestia's laws would not matter, me and my friends will do nothing to stop it like we have the last several times. And with how something of the sort happens every few months, it won't take too long to show us being serious on it. And Guess what? Last threat was handled by Spike and myself alone. A Mad Mare kept trying to alter history and basically destroyed the world several times over. And none of you would have known it with how alteration due to time travel works."
Just replace the first part with anything somepony or some group tries forcing an issue to get what they want when it involves Twilight or anyone close to her.
And all they'd have to do is ignore the threat long enough for the Council or anyone else to cave in.
Um, they do realize that, if they rule dragons as, basically, not people, lots of dragons would proceed to start invading Equestria either because that ruling pissed them off or because it was a good excuse for some pillaging.
They would then proceed to pillage and add spoils to their hoard, causing them to grow larger, making them better at pillaging, spurring an exponential reaction of masses of ever-growing dragons rampaging across Equestria ransacking and destroying cities.
So, ruling dragons as not people is a monumentally stupid idea.
6931813 I understand what you're trying to say. I should have spent more time developing this idea and thought better reasons for them to want to take Spike. I didn't make an obscure law to work in favor of this because I honestly did not think it all the way through, and U have some reluctance to make up my own MLP lore (though I suppose that's exactly what I do in fanfics) as I have not been keeping up with the show as I used to, and don't want to make something inconsistent with the cannon (though once again I admit that's what fanfics often do). In later chapters, I think I might take your ideas, if you would allow it, and find ways to incorporate them into this piece. I really do appreciate your feedback, thoughts, and critique. They help me find unique ways to present this piece.
Idgi, even arguing that spike is not recognized as a person, no matter how important the object, and individual cannot just claim another's property for science. This requires someone of a position at Twilight's level or higher to order. If Spike is an object, then he clearly is and has been in Twilight's possession, so I don't know what they're talking about. Its not like hes a stone left in the street. The reason Data's episode could work is that he could reasonably be called starfleet property so they could do what they wanted.
B. Cadence is a ruler of a state, sovereign or not, that he has been KNIGHTED in, that's what sir is for. Thus either she is his liege lord and they are bound, or he is a foreign citizen who should have at least that level of rights. Or easily make him a citizen of the crystal empire if he isn't already, because there clearly is an exception if it is part of Equestria, along the lines of any citizen of CE is a citizen of EQ.
C. Holy shit, there are going to be race riots all over if this gets out. There is no way that their laws are seperately divided to say any pony/griffon/diamond dog/etc instead of saying any being/person and then defining that. This would essentially be declaring any species non-persons, and we know there is at least some presence of non-equines. Furthermore, given the inherent silliness of their biology, pony vs not pony is going to be very, very, hard to define.
6931970 I suppose Twilight certainly could take that course of action if necessary. I'm sure she would go to most any length to protect her friends, but I never even considered your point when I first outlined this story. It's a good point, it really is.
Huh.......I really feel like punching the "Doctor" and the council, they're argument is such bullshit honestly. And does Celestia even know what'll happen if other dragons find out about this? Dragons are prideful by nature, if they hear that the "puny ponies" treat one of their kin as a lab rat, well......Equestria will regret making most of they're buildings out of highly flammable materials, and that's putting it lightly. Don't get me started on the backlash from the Crystal Empire
ok you write well but what's the leg this doctor has to stand on? seems few people realize this but this isn't democratic in anyway this is a constitutional crown (or crown's in this case) twilight has the authority to declare spike under her protection and as long as he's within ponyville and the ever free it would be illegal for the council to touch him she also has the authority to aware spike citizenship status and once again it would be illegal for the council to intercede. hell all celestia has to do is say 'this is illegal the doctor is hereby discredited and stripped of her status in the science community' and guess what? it happens.
there is no political way that this scientist or this council can actualy win something like this.
6932142
Believe me, there are so many stories where I see stuff where some council, the nobles or whoever else try forcing what they want out of Twilight or her friends that I wish that just ONCE she would this.
6932157 Thank you for saying I write well. But in context of what I've written so far, I suppose that yes there are issues with the doctor's argument. I don't think Celestia would maliciously strip the doctor of her title, but yes, technically Ponyville is not a democracy, which would imply rule by the majority, as every decision ultimately comes down to Celestia, but she is not a tyrant. I believe Celestia would have to make it a practice to give every side in a case presented before her equal consideration as a fair leader. If she suddenly didn't do that in this one case and ruled in favor of Spike, what kind of message would that send her subjects? That she is biased and gives favors to her friends? For her, this is a losing situation. She doesn't want to force Spike to trial, but she has to uphold her own laws and remain impartial. "Heavy is the head that wears the crown."
I do understand what you're saying though. Thanks for the comment.
6932190 except there are four equal crowns not one. all that needs to take place is for luna and cadence to side with twilight and the point is moot.
6932214 I suppose so. But they also have to abide by certain laws and give equal consideration to their subjects.
I could make countless reasons why I believe this is the way it should happen. But in the end, I suppose the truth is if the conflict was resolved so simply, there wouldn't be a story.
6932251 then I pray twilight makes a good argument before this reaches the dragons ears (considering there are some that live in and around most pony settlements not likely) cause as others have noted, this incident could spark a war equestrian isn't likely to win.
I'm sorry, but these are simply not very good places for such exaggerations.
6932125 The show canon has remained largely silent on the topic of Equestrian politics and laws (for good reason, given the demographic). So, in that area, you're largely free to innovate without fear.
As to the question of incorporating some elements of "my ideas" later on, thank you for asking but I would hardly presume to claim ownership on anything I've suggested here. I was merely offering an example of how someone might go about adapting that particular aspect of the Star Trek plot to the MLPverse, but it's certainly not the only way of approaching the problem and I'm sure there are others that would work far better. If you feel my example would work for you later on in this story, then feel free to run with it, but bear in mind if you decide to leave the dialog here in its current form, you might also need to (briefly) address the question of why Twilight was willing to capitulate so readily in this chapter without first raising the same questions your readers have.
6932214
I may be forgetting something, but off the top of my head I can't think of anything in show canon that suggests Twilight or Cadance have an equal voice in Equestrian governance with Celestia. Just because they share the same title and Twilight can be called upon to assume full command in the absence of the others does not necessarily mean their authority is the same under normal circumstances. Luna, as co-ruler, presumably would have equal authority with Celestia, but given her history, even she might be reluctant to publicly oppose the ruler that ponies have loved and served exclusively for a thousand years.
That's not to suggest that such an equitable "one vote per princess" arrangement would be invalid in fanfics where the subject is relevant, but I hardly see that it's the only way to approach it.
This story reminds a lot of an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, where a scientist wants to take Data away for study and Captain Picard has to prove in court that Data is human.
6932891
You.... Did read the description, right?
I find the idea of this fic interesting, but not sure I like this fic, no offense. The original episode was one of TNG's first excellent episodes (with many more to come), and Voyager's Doctor would have some of the same problems, but adapting this to Spike's life is... tricky. Data's origin is clear, Spike's, not so much (where did his egg come from). So Spike isn't a pony so he doesn't have rights, yet despite not being a citizen he has to submit to examination? I guess at least he has the exile option. Not to mention how this council can override the princesses in regards to a non-pony. Oh well, that's politics.
Spike's status in Equestria is an interesting subject, especially given how badly the show treats him most of the time, but forcing Cadence into Riker's role feels really awkward. Though even calling Spike a pet is insulting to him, but apparently legally he's not even that, he's just been a walking talking momento of Twilight's entrance exam? Also, I thought the original episode was partially debating Data's sentience, here its basically Spike the non-pony obey or be kicked out?
Its an important issue, and TNG handled it mostly well, just hope the next chapter (whenever that is), is adapted better.
6932530 I was going off of the authors response there, frankly the argument shouldn't have come to celestia in the first place twilight said no and pursuing the issue behind her back is by definition treasonous actions. furthermore it looks bad for celestia to counter twilights choice as it makes the crown look divided as well as making celestia herself appear weak considering she herself set the law that spike was to stay with twilight. this is a constitutional crown, not the figureheads that most people are used too. when twilight said know it was by all measures a royal ruling in regards of spike, rather this council decides or not the doctor is still guilty of treasonous conspiracy against one of the crowns of equestria,
Greetings. Interesting story, so far.
A few tips? Some of your descriptions are more telling the readers what's happening (or, in the cases I spotted, what the character's are feeling) than showing the readers. Instead of telling us that Saffron was uncomfortable saying Spike's name, the narration could describe Twilight as noticing something she sounded uncomfortable saying his name. And in a few cases, you describe how a character is speaking ("Night Light asked disbelievingly"; "Twilight exasperatedly responded"), whereas you could have just had their dialogue portray the tone, rather than telling us how they said it.
6933041 Treason is defined as attempting to overthrow the government or to attempt physical harm against a ruler. Appealing one ruler's decision to another equally legitimate ruler (especially if the latter has primacy over the former) is not treason. It might be an extraordinarily bad idea, depending on the political climate and just how badly the offended ruler could muck up your life in retaliation... but it wouldn't be treason.
the thing is, there are multiple sapient species in Equestria....there should be laws against experimenting on sapient species already..
This looks very interesting, I will definitely follow this fic.
I especially looks forward to read how Twi will fare as attorney, and how hard it will be for both her and Cadance as the older princess begins as prosecutor. Not only will Cadance face Twilight in the court case, but she also has to speak against Spike... Their bonds will be put to the test!
6932148 It is possible (and may be likely from how we saw dragons treat one another in "Dragon Quest") that their society is a lot like Klingon society - which is fitting considering the theme of this story. That is, if a dragon is so weak as to allow itself to be enslaved by a bunch of puny ponies, it has no honor and isn't worth the trouble of staging a rescue or taking revenge.
As it stands, for myself I believe there is some kind of treaty between ponies and dragons so they don't annihilate one another so the whole notion of treating Spike as a "thing" like Data rather than a living being doesn't quite work for me. Not directly because of my headcannon, but because I can't see how a science council would have more pull than a pseudo-deitic entity like Celestia; even more so if it's true she helped raise him before decreeing him over to Twilight.
I think this story would work better if it had been set right after "Secret of my Excess" and many ponies from both Ponyville and Canterlot petitioned Celestia to do something about the imminent danger Spike poses with his greed growth. It makes more sense to want to study and learn to restrain Spike from becoming a monster again rather than trying to learn more about dragons in general through him.
I mean, if they want to learn everything about Spike in order to learn more about dragons I'm sure a science geek like Twilight has been taking detailed notes (probably to an... ahem... somewhat uncomfortable and embarrassing level) on Spike's growth and biology over the past 10+ years they have been together.
I almost hope douchepony wins, just because of what the fallout would be. The Crystal Empire would storm his labs en-mass to take Spike back, Celestia could walk in to simply take Spike back while politely pointing out all the laws that don't say that she can't do it, Twilight burns the labs down, all Spike's friends stage an assault to bring him back, Rarity discreetly sends him so many gems to greed-fuel-growth him into a small mountain, Luna "accidentally" drops a meteor, Celestia just happens to send him a vial of wall-melting chemicals through their magic communication...
However, even if Spike isn't considered more than an animal, he'd still belong to Twilight (or Celestia, or the Crown itself).
Go on.
I want to like this story. I feel like the premise of it is interesting but I just find it so hard to ever see this hold up.
The whole thing is "inhumane" as they're willing to use untested practices on a sapient unwilling being for decades at a time. Not only that but they're doing it on a child and ripping him away from friends and family. The law itself is racist by the way they're using the wording and the fallout should a dragon ever catch wind of this would be huge. That's not even including how he's a national hero.
Three chapters in and already I'm outraged... Brilliant.
I'm looking forward to where this story leads. With a premise and conflict such as this, it makes me want to know what happens next.