When history is rewritten so that Equestria is doomed, it's not a hard choice to try to revert the timeline.
While battling Starlight Glimmer's interference with the timeline, Twilight is faced with a moral dilemma when she lands in a timeline which has weathered Equestria's trials almost as well as her own. How can the lives of those living there be balanced against her vanished world?
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That was a good exploration of a big ethical problem - in the episode Twilight was "retconning" timelines that the ponies that themselves lived on them would risk the change...
But and a neutral one? That turns things far more complicated...
And it was nice to see a timeline with nice (or reformed) Sunset.
I think that, no matter the decision, Twilight would always wonder if her choice was the right one...
Very intriguing concept! I honestly would love to see you do a sequel where Twilight takes Sunset's deal, but I admit I'm biased towards multiversal theory!
Well done. Honestly this leaves me hungry for more. The info you dropped about how things went differently than in Canon make me want to explore this new timeline a bit more. I crave worldbuilding!
Pretty nice. But I never bought Niven's scenario: people aren't subatomic particles. Although who we are can easily be changed by events, the decisions we make at a particular instant in time are determined by our memories and experiences and the beliefs they have shaped up to that point, and aside from situations where a coin-flip is necessary, are going to be relatively deterministic. If nothing _earlier_ was any different, Julius Caesar is going to cross that bridge on the Rubicon, because he's goddamn Julius Caesar. And Twilight isn't going to murder a bunch of foals and fillies.
Could they possibly create a small temporary soulbond or something between Sunset and Twilight, one that would get destroyed if the world got destroyed. Then send Twilight back to save Celestia and Luna. That way they will know if the world does get overwritten and even if it does she has made a better world for the ponies to live in.
Future speculations aside. A very nice story overall.
Interesting story and nice reference to Bill and Ted. If only all time travel stories were that silly/irreverent/happy-go-lucky. Zecora's words suggest altered timeline rather than jumping to other timelines (I remember DBZ did that), and stopping the end of Equestria is definitely something to be avoided. Figures that Twilight would have a moment to breathe only in a pretty stable world (rather than being chased by monsters). Always nice to see Sunset too, though sounds like she isn't an alicorn in this timeline either (with Cadence handling everything).
I haven't read the original story, though looking at the summary I can guess the general tone of it. Parallel universes and/or new timelines forming from every choice is either inspiring or depressing. No idea what Sunset's idea is, and short of another Twilight teleporting in to prove its different world lines rather than erasing altered timelines, no idea where they'll go from here. About the season finale, was slightly disappointed we didn't see alternate Twilight at all (and Spike of course was never born due to the disrupted rainboom). And as Sunset said, only Twilight would really, really worry about the consequences of her choice (most of the rest of the Mane Six wouldn't be familiar enough with science to worry about it). Too bad about Twilight's dilemma- everything seems fine, but one can always be paranoid (but blue peaceful map is a good sign), and she is taking a big risk of being stuck in a different timeline if anything should happen to that scroll.
6694304
Having to make a choice without a clear right answer was exactly what I wanted to portray, so I'm really glad that came across well! I definitely think you're right that whatever decision she made, she'd wonder about if it was the right one!
6694308
This story is kind of self-contained, so I'm afraid there probably won't be a continuation unless a really clever twist ending for one occurs to me. The ending where Twilight takes the deal was probably the one I liked the most too though.
6694483
I like worldbuilding, but in this case I think the story probably benefitted from trimming away a lot of what happened, and leaving just enough to imply the outline of their history. Glad you liked what you saw of it!
6694596
I really like Niven's story, but I actually agree with you that there's a few things in the interpretation taken in it that don't make a lot of sense. It's an interesting plot device though.
6694773
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Sunset's solution doesn't require any extra information than what was in the episode, so it doesn't involve any speculative magic. It's a little bit of a sideways solution though, so I half expect it to be the kind of thing people will either think of instantly or never get. I'll add the solution to the comments and the author's note in a few days if nobody gets it.
6694955
Ha ha, I couldn't write a time travelling pony story and not mention the "Wyld Stallyns".
And yes, the Niven story takes the idea to a depressing conclusion. The twist is pretty clever and different enough to the way I took the idea that it shouldn't be spoiled even after seeing my spin on it. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who likes time travel stories.
Even if not by a large amount, the "prime" Equestria would still be in a better position; there are four alicorns instead of two (counting main!Twilight if she stayed), and Discord is more powerful than Chrysalis is. What happens if in the future, there's another threat, and this difference is tips the balance between coming out of it okay, and the world heading to yet another horrible future? The opposite could happen, where only something the alternate future has is what pulls them through, but it's a lower chance because their super-powerful beings roster is smaller and weaker.
That's not even counting the fact that there are now two Starlights that are still presumably around in this future, still intent on her (their?) original goal, just like how there are now two Twilights. Starlight is extremely dangerous, as the whole situation in the first place demonstrates, and having two of her dedicated to her goal is even worse. That's not even including the fact that one of the Starlights already has the knowledge of how to modify Starswirl's spell again, so all she would have to do is find the original scroll (assuming Tirek didn't destroy it if he went through Canterlot), or even just steal Twilight's scroll in order to start all this over again. Starlight needed to be dealt with as soon as possible, and using the scroll is the only method Twilight has to be able to find her for sure. The longer the Starlights are able to keep cascading through time, the higher the chance that they eventually create a world where she (they?) win, and then proceed to destroy all records of time travel magic to keep it that way.
For every pony in this new timeline that would be erased or had their situations worsened by choosing the original, roughly the same applies to ponies in the original timeline, so ethics do not favor one side over the other. Thus, it is most prudent to make the choice that has a lower chance of ending like one of the bad futures.
/micdrop
6695312
Starlight isn't hopping around the timeline as such during all this. I guess I could have stood to spell it out more fully during the story, but Starlight mentions in the episode that the spell brings her along with Twilight every time Twilight will try to use the spell. This is the reason Twilight realises she can take some time to plan.
It can be assumed that the next thing the Starlight Twilight just left will experience is being sent through time again the next time the spell is cast. It doesn't actually matter if Twilight spends even weeks or months developing a plan. As soon as she casts the spell again, she travels back in time and Starlight is pulled along with her.
Certainly though the story doesn't make it at all clear what would happen to Starlight if the scroll was destroyed. Twilight is supposed to be making a split-second decision which she hasn't had time to properly evaluate though, rather than a perfectly rational decision. I admit I fully expected the "destroy the scroll" and "destroy everything" choices to be questioned, and not all choices are meant to be equal.
The Starlight in the new timeline is as vulnerable to the butterfly effect as anyone else, and should have no reason to develop a time spell.
6695341
That was brilliant. I particularly liked this:
That's just really clever and thematically appropriate!
6695646
Except that the spell only pulls Starlight through when Twilight casts it; given that the show very heavily implies that there is only one timeline active at a time, and that Starlight thus cannot be in the past at the same "time" Twilight is in the future, the time traveling Starlight must be in the present if she did not use time magic to skip it, either from waiting the years or using a different time spell to fast forward. She's not "hopping" through the timelines when each different way she disrupts Rainbow changes the future course of that timeline to be those leading to the ones Twilight gets sucked into. For example, the past where Starlight convinces Dumb Bell and Hoops not to bully Fluttershy leads directly and normally to the Queen Chrysalis bad future; no additional timeline travel by Starlight is necessary.
The fact that the spell pulls Starlight from earlier in the timeline (which is the only logical possibility as to why she has no memory of the bad futures) when Twilight casts it does not nullify the fact that a future variant of the main Starlight must (unless she was killed during the intervening years somehow) exist in the present that Twilight is currently in until Twilight casts the spell. Twilight's unlimited "time to plan" only applies to Starlight stopping the rainboom in the next timeline, not any other shenanigans the present version of main Starlight gets into while Twilight is planning that could prevent her from moving to the next timeline at all. Think of it this way: from the perspective of history of the timeline the main Twilight is currently residing in, what happened to the unicorn that interfered with Rainbow Dash as a filly? She cannot have disppeared into the next timeline, because Twilight has not traveled to the next timeline, pulling Starlight with her, and there is no guarantee, from temporal mechanics alone, that Twilight will ever do so. Thus, from the perspective of the events of the timeline that Twilight is in, Starlight did not get pulled out of it by Twilight.
As for the topic of alternate Starlight possibly deciding to use time travel, the main Starlight already showed that there is no need for previous time travel for her to come to the decision to utilize it, and any number of ways other than what happened in the main timeline could give her the idea, including a Starlight that has already done it.
6694308 I like the idea of the multiverse as well! I also think that Twilight would learn about the multiverse and develop a spelled she could visit those alternate universes like she does with Canterot High. (Think: a room with a large number of mirror portals, each leading to a different world.)
Also, the theory of world lines as Sunset talks about (and the corresponding theory in real life) are completely unrelated to theories of time travel.
Let's say that the world line hypothesis is true, so that there is a different universe for every choice that anything makes. This is irrelevant to time travel, as if one time traveled, you would still be on the same world line as before, because choosing to time travel is one of the choices that your world line includes you making. If the time travel rules are multiverse, then said world line's universe split into two universes, but the second universe is still within the same world line. If the time travel rules are single timeline, then said world line's universe got replaced with the new one.
Multiverse type time travel does not move you between already existing timelines; it creates completely new ones by creating an additional branch, one that is impossible to reach from differing choices alone, from a point in the past. This is true even if the world line hypothesis is also true, because they're separate phenomena, "nested" within one another.
An exploration of time travel ethics. At the end of the day, it's all very subjective, and whether or not someone enjoys this story will probably come down to how disposable alternate timelines are to them.
Aah, it's based off of that story!!
I like this story a lot. Like KingMoriarty said, it's very subjective, and I for one greatly enjoyed seeing a very different, but non-apocalyptic and still ultimately hopeful, Equestria.
Also, the multiple ending thing you put in is perfect, and a nice call-back to the original story.
You, my good person, have earned a fave!
(Sunset was right, though: her timeline and everyone in it has decohered from Twilight's universe greatly, and everything's probably different as a result of the split.
And yes, I am a shameless Theoretical Physics nerd.)
So, we know:
1. Timelines can be changed (C)
2. Twilight is from a different timeline (TW = T)
3. Either that timeline exists or not (TL = (T || F))
A. If it exists: then changing the past does not destroy Timelines (C !=> !TL => TW)
B. If it does not exist: then changing the past destroys Timelines (C => !TL) but that not all things from the timeline are destroyed (C !=> !TW)
4. Timelines create a finite number of objects or beings during existence (O >= {0...N})
A. If the timeline is destroyed; some number of those things are destroyed, but never more than was created (C=> !TL(OD({0}, {N})) where TL(OD(x,y)) is a function describing the destruction of objects and takes arguments for minimum and maximum number of destroyed objects, for a given timeline)
B; Accepting that objects from other timelines in a given timeline destroyed may be destroyed as well
C. If the timeline is not destroyed; then no objects are destroyed (TL(OD(x,y)) where x = 0, y = 0)
5. Because Timelines can create things that influence other timelines (see 2), and the fate of said timeline does not influence those things (see 3) and the number of objects destroyed by timelines is never positive over the life of the timeline (see 4); creating timelines has a non-zero chance of creating objects that persist longer than the timeline. (TL => O >= 0)
6. Objects from timelines can be counted altogether as the Total Objects (TO)
A; Obviously, objects never created can never be destroyed (TO >=0)
7. Because Timelines have a non-zero chance of creating objects, regardless of the fate of the timeline, (see 5) and that all timelines never have more destruction than they can create (see 4A, 4B) all timelines must either end with some number of objects persisting outside of the given timeline, or all objects from that timeline destroyed (TO = TO + {0...N})
8. Because all timelines either Add objects to the Total Object Count, or Add nothing; Timelines are a positive effect on Total Object Count. (C => TL => (TO = TO + {0..N}))
9. Because Persisting objects can create more timelines (see 2) and that creating timelines is a positive effect on Total Object Count (see 8), and that destruction of timelines has no net negative effect on Total Object Count (see 6, 6a, 4a, 4b) then it can be said that creation of timelines leads, in all cases, is divergent. (C => TL => C => TL ... C=TL)
Thus it can be stated that, under the above rules, going back and creating a new timeline always leads to a positive effect on number and variance of living beings. You can thus ignore the ethical problem of lost lives vs newly created lives.
Oooh, I like this timeline a lot! I'm actually curious to learn more about it.
6695716
A lot of Sunset's talk about worldlines, she bases on the fact that in Twilight's story (i.e. in the episode itself), Twilight isn't sucked into the past when Starlight casts the spell, but when Twilight touches the scroll afterwards. The moment Starlight travelled back should have changed the timeline, so at that point there is a reasonable argument to be made that the two timelines existed at the same time.
6696356
There is a more depressing aspect to the multiverse idea as well - all those dying Equestria alternate worlds would continue to exist as well! I wonder if Twilight and company would feel compelled to save them as well if they could travel there at will?
6697877
Very true! The main reason I wrote the story was as an aversion of the way alternate universes are usually portrayed as expendable in fiction, but Twilight's choice at the end wouldn't seem like much of a choice for anyone who continued to see Sunset's world as expendable.
6698019
I'm glad you liked the multiple-ending thing. I was a bit nervous of throwing something so stylistically unusual into my first story (even as a reference to Niven's story), so it's really great to hear that it worked properly.
6698669
I wouldn't agree that the ethics of the situation can be reduced to numbers. Rather a lot of people when presented with a "trolley problem", whereby they are presented with a choice of killing one person to save a larger number will balk at that solution. Likewise, the actual choice here is presented as "choose to end the lives of everyone in the current timeline to try to restore your own".
I'm also not convinced you've made the case in general. Your argument seems like there's no reason it couldn't be used equally to justify changing the timeline from any timeline to any other timeline. That includes, say, changing the original timeline to the complete desolation timeline.
6698673
Hmm... something interesting that didn't come up in the story.
This was how I imagined Chrysalis' disguise. I had it in mind that they restored Luna without her identity as a changeling becoming known, but by that time she had genuinely become friends with the others through shared adversity and discovered she rather enjoyed being liked for herself. They only discovered she was a changeling later. Probably in some dramatic fashion!
6698886
The world line theory Sunset mentioned, a concept of infinite worlds that branch off of every possible decision, has nothing to do with time travel, even the type of time travel that has multiple timelines. They both create completely new timelines, but the way they do so and the types of timelines they result in are completely different. Time travel is fundamentally unable to switch you between world line type timelines, because only differing choices from within a word line can affect it, not from without. Thus, world line theory is unrelated to the dilemma Twilight is in, because even if world lines are true, then by definition, none of her decisions can take her out of her own world line, even by time traveling, because choosing to time travel and how to time travel are decisions under the definition of world line theory. Even if she could create new timelines via multiverse type time travel, it would merely mean that every new timeline created in that manner would also be a part of the same world line.
Also, the episode showed that Twilight and Starlight were inextricably linked in terms of the exit point, as determined by when Twilight travels back. No matter when Twilight got sent back, Starlight would get sent back to the exact same point in time. That means that Starlight didn't start changing the past until after Twilight got sucked through the portal after her, because Starlight explicitly wanted her to be there when she did it. If neither Twilight nor Spike had ever activated the scroll, Starlight would have been stuck in limbo forever.
The few seconds of Pinkie Pie showing up after Twilight and Spike entered the portal means that the time spell takes a non-zero amount of time to resolve (either after sucking all the participants in, after the spell is reset, or both), because Twilight and Starlight did not come back to Pinkie walking into the room; ergo, there must have been a delay at some point. Thus, even if there was only one timeline, Pinkie would still stroll in there and not see anyone, because she's either there before the spell has resolved and sent Twilight and Starlight into the past, or she's there after Twilight and Starlight restored the original timeline, and the spell had not spit them back out yet.
6698886
I did not say: You should go back and fix your timeline. I only said that you should always go back: Even in your timeline, as it allows for infinite timelines.
Unlike the trolly problem, in this scenario, going back allows, by definition, you ti recreate and save everyone. You just need to create timelines wherein you introduce more persistent objects.
On phone so not as well written as earlier. Will elaborate tommorow
6698886 I think she would l. I think they ALL would.
6698886 I knew that. And I think that Celesta, Luna, Candence, and everyone that was shown as not a self-centered twit (aka Blueblood, Jet Set, Upper Crust, Spoiled Rich aka Spoiled Rotten/B**ch/ Diamond Tiara's mother, and Svengalop) would be unable to sleep at night knowing that some alternate versions of themselves were suffering like that. It would be WAR.
I can't prove it, but I think part of why every timeline Starlight created was worse than the earlier is because noone is supposed to mess with time. Altering it leads to worse outcomes overall, just like messing with Cutie Marks is a really bad idea.
Anyhow, after witnessing this world, Twilight has all the more reason to be pissed. Because now Starlight forced her into making a Sadistic Choice.
6698669
So are you saying it's ethical to destroy 1999 people as long as you first create 2000 people?
An interesting concept. In Twilight's place, I'd accept Sunset's offer provisionally... but make sure to keep the scroll very safe and be prepared to teleport back to the map very quickly if necessary. With two Twilights, a Sunset Shimmer, even (probably) a Starlight Glimmer available to help, it should be quite possible to find a way to maintain both timelines, perhaps even find a way to regularly move back and forth between them, to the benefit of both...
6701004
In a world where you can go back in time to create the same system that gives rise to those exact 1999 people and still have the 2000 you created? Yes.
This isn't the trolley problem; this is a cause-effect chain. Specifically one with infinities and effects that persist their causes never happening.
6699068
6699090
I can't say either of these interpretations make sense to me even after being re-explained. I'm quite happy to see that though. The story was supposed to be about making a choice where there were no good answers, so it wouldn't have worked as well if everyone who read it agreed on one obviously correct interpretation.
6700882
That's quite an interesting way of thinking about it as well.
It really was a sadistic choice too. On the subject of tropes though, the one I was thinking of was Expendable Alternate Universe, which at one point on tvtropes was called... All The Myriad Ways.
6701012
That would probably have been the choice I'd have been leaning towards as well, though it could easily turn out to be a bad idea. "I have to sleep sometime" would probably be the biggest objection to it running through my head while deciding.
6702225
Twilight has to sleep sometime, but Twilight also has one extremely trustworthy ally - Spike. She and Spike can sleep in shifts, each guarding the scroll while the other sleeps. Yes, a sufficiently determined effort from Sunset will still have a chance of damaging the scroll, or alternatively this timeline's Discord could almost certainly pull it off if he gets reformed... but if original-timeline Starlight could create the scroll, then so can Twilight, given enough time.
It's not a completely risk-free strategy, but it does seem to be the lowest-risk strategy.
An intriguing tale. I would've been quite interested to see...another eventuality. Certainly something better than the utter stupidity we got.
I like to see a story where cosmological nihilism works out civilly. Have a moustache
DAMN YOU WIBBLY-WOBBLY TIMEY-WHIMEY!!!!!! DAMN YOU!!!!!
6715374
I like stories where there are no real villains. A conflict where both sides have good motives makes for an interesting story.
6719985
Might have been too cute with the Fermat reference, since I got very few attempts to work out Sunset's solution!
I've probably left that long enough now anyway, so here it is.
Spoilers for Sunset's proposed solution:
Sunset observed from Twilight's story that when Twilight returned to the past, they moved in space as well as time, and that since there weren't past versions of themselves there, Starlight had to ensure that the rainboom was prevented by their actions on each trip.
Sunset concluded that travelling back to just before the rainboom but to a location where history couldn't be interfered with would restore the timeline no matter what Starlight did while there. The location she planned to use was the location the Crystal Empire would return to, on the basis that nopony would go there before it returned, and after it returned any changes they could possibly make would be covered by the city.
Hello there! So, not sure if you noticed, but we seem to have independently written similar stories. Mine is called "The Reality I Choose" and one of my readers pointed your story out to me. It's really neat to see how someone else handled the idea.
On that note, I'm putting up a blog post that mentions this story, so hopefully you'll get a few more folks reading this one as well.
Thanks for the read and keep up the good writing.
6722698
I did notice, and in fact I think I got quite a few extra readers from being at the top of the "similar to this story" panel on your story.
I didn't comment on your story because it felt a bit too much like fishing for attention, but I also enjoyed seeing how someone else handled the idea.
6722766
Oh good, that makes me feel better!
Yeah, I'm just glad you're not bitter or upset or thought I had taken your idea.
Had I seen your story first, I probably wouldn't have published mine. As it is, I suppose it's just a happy coincidence.
"That might be a tempting way to label the world when you’re losing a war"
...That... is a very interesting idea that I'd not thought of before. If that were the case, the universe doesn't have to have a single "right" path; the paste just has to detect "these people are timeline travellers" or whatever. And, yeah; with how much uncertainly there is about how time travel works, Zecora could easily not be certain... and as you say, with how badly things are going for her and the ponies there, it might indeed be preferable to her to say that the timeline isn't right (as opposed to the result of Twilight leaving being Chrysalis blinking in momentary puzzlement and then continuing the attack). Thanks!
Oh, and also a very good point about Twilight not being first pulled back immediately after Starlight casts the spell.
6722766
6722776
I'm one of those sent over by The Hat Man, and, I must say, I'm quite glad that you did both post your stories. :)
6721628
Hm. I didn't think that Twilight could control the drift in space, though.
I think I've got the simplest possible idea for Sunset to give Twilight: For Twilight to do exactly what she did canonically. Take this as an unseen last loop before Starlight's redemption.
6723527
I rather liked that argument too. It didn't really matter all that much to Sunset that Zecora thought her world wasn't real - it felt real enough that the difference became academic.
As for the spoilered bit:
We see in the episode that Starlight was able to choose to go to her hometown instead of Cloudsdale, so even though Sunset and Twilight hadn't known about that, it's not an unreasonable guess that it was possible. Sunset is also intending that they would spend some time examining the spell beforehand, and is presuming that they'd be able to figure out how to use the spell in that way.
6723897
That is definitely the simplest answer, and I did intend the fact that it was one of the possible choices Twilight made at the end to make the story fit as a possible unseen last loop before the finale we saw!
I don't think it's as guaranteed for success as the answer I gave to a comment below though, and which I've now added to the author's note as well.
6724771
Oh, hm, I'd forgotten about that; thanks.
6725257
6724771
The spell was also based on another spell, so they could simply use it as a template to create a new one—that might be quicker and easier than learning how to vary the location, and would provide a wider range of options with what they can make the spell do. For instance, they could add built-in protection spells. Or they could make it call Starlight and then immediately send her back.
6760578
Hm, perhaps a possibility, I suppose.
(Sorry; I'm in something of a hurry at the moment.)
6700132 can you make a sequel to this where Twilight and her friends visit this world?
6701012 Unless this timeline already existed in the first place.
6782651
I think the most important part of the conclusion of the story is that I don't say outright whether or not such a thing is even possible, or whether there really was a stark choice between the existence of this universe or the original one. Writing a sequel would have to confirm that one way or the other, which I feel might detract from this story.
In addition, there wasn't really any ongoing crisis in this universe especially so that I could make it comparable in stability to the original one. Writing a sequel with a crisis in this universe then would definitely detract from this story by making the choice at the end less of an equal one.
That only really leaves the option of writing a story without any real conflict where the characters from the two universes meet and talk. If I ever think of a really clever hook to base that kind of conversation around, that might be worth a story, but other than that I likely won't.
That said, I'm quite pleased that the story struck enough of a chord with you that you came back to it a month later to ask about a sequel. Sorry I have to disappoint!
6782799 what about a story where the ponies from normal equestria try to help those other worlds where the bad guy was victorious?
6782799 anyone up for an "unofficial" sequel then?
6783503
That actually is a kind of interesting hook to write a story on! Wow, that would be a gigantic undertaking though, with so many characters and worlds to deal with! I have to admit that in terms of sequels, I'd have been thinking of another short story if I was going to write one.
6783509
I certainly have no objections to anyone writing an unofficial sequel.
6784864 Try to make that the next big thing that you make.
6784864 Ok everyone! He gave you the go ahead!
Between Doppler Effect and The Hat Man? No clue who's is better. I'm ignoring writing styles to point out...
...I just read the same story twice with different points of view each time.
...one story hurt my head more than the other yet both have similar sounding time theories.
...while the other story was thought out; this story is like a gun-slinger. It knows what it's doing and makes the idea clear to everyone around. My usually preferred style.
6786804
I made a big effort to have as many of the background details as possible be directly contributing to the philosophical debate. I'm really glad to hear that worked well for you!